UK air-to-air gunnery exercises in 70s/80s

[redsetter]

Back in the 1970s and 1980s most air-to-air gunnery practice by Lightnings and Phantoms took place over the Med, but occasional live firing exercises against banner targets seem to have also taken place over UK sea ranges. Druridge Bay is mentioned as being one such range, another appears to have been off the Cornish coast (Start Point?) and another over the North Sea off Leuchars. Can anyone confirm where these ranges were and describe how the exercises were flown ?

Thanks, RS.

[ORAC]

Also flown off the coast north of Flamborough Head.

NOTAM put out for the area and Canberra towing the banner established on its pattern. One of the fighters performed a surface sweep to ensure no vessels in the area and when the area area confirmed clear it proceeded as normal.

Didn’t stop VFR traffic regularly penetrating the area and having to call stop on a frequent basis - but I can’t remember an APC not achieving its NATO qualification requirement - though that was hushed up as much as possible….

[wiggy]

In Nov 81 we (F-4) did our annual gunnery APC out of St Mawgan…can’t remember exactly where relative to the airfield we did actual shooting but it would not have been a long transit and was performed in the manner ORAC described.

I see from the logbook during that APC I did one sortie as a dedicated “sweep”, presumably for range safety but can’t remember the details.

The was also of course the Air-to Air gunnery done by the tactical weapons units….In my case, Brawdy, in 1980, gunnery usually done out over the Bristol Channel.

[redsetter]

Thanks ORAC and wiggy. Presumably the shot-up banners were returned to the participating squadrons for assessment ?

[wiggy]

Thanks ORAC and wiggy. Presumably the shot-up banners were returned to the participating squadrons for assessment ?

Yep end of the shoot the tow aircraft would do a lowish fly past and drop the banner on the airfield.

It was then recovered and taken to the squadron for inspection by the weapons instructors and all others with an interest.

As I recall it each aircraft in the shoot would be firing rounds that were coated with a different colored dye/paint so multiple aircraft take turns firing on one banner and then the individual scores were established by counting the different coloured holes…..

[henra]

In Nov 81 we (F-4) did our annual gunnery APC out of St Mawgan…can’t remember exactly where relative to the airfield we did actual shooting but it would not have been a long transit and was performed in the manner ORAC described.

How accurate was the Gunpod on the F-4?. I seem to remember that the Americans where rather not so happy with the accuracy of their pods. Did it restrict g-limits? In other words: Was it more considered a benefit or a hindrance for A2A by the 'users'?

[superplum]

As I recall it each aircraft in the shoot would be firing rounds that were coated with a different colored dye/paint so multiple aircraft take turns firing on one banner and then the individual scores were established by counting the different coloured holes…..

Yes, and a particularly messy job for the armourers who had to apply the paint".

[uffington sb]

Part of the TWCU course at Brawdy involved Clear Range Firing where the flag and shooters departed to the west (St. George’s Channel area), checked the oggin for shipping, then blasted at the flag.
The DZ for dropping the flag was between runway 33 and the western taxiway.

[redsetter]

Were the target tugs for Brawdy also Canberras ?

[LOMCEVAK]

When 2 TWU was operating at Lossiemouth from’78 to ‘82/3 the air-to-air gunnery was done over the Moray Firth but I cannot remember whether it was just clear range or in the Danger Area.

[Minnie Burner]

Ref post #9

Puddy in Winston.
Then modified Hawks.
Similar at the better TWU.

[wiggy]

Were the target tugs for Brawdy also Canberras ?


Nope, Meteor(s).

[uffington sb]

In the late 80’s the tugs were Hawks.

[BEagle]

In the Summer of '76, after 58 Sqn folded at RAF Wittering, I was posted to hold with Standards Sqn at RAF Brawdy. Amongst whom was the late 'Puddy' Catt, whose flying frequently included towing the flag behind Winston or Clementine, our 2 Meteors.

One afternoon Puddy came in looking even more red faced than normal. It seems that the range sortie had been DNCO'd due to a ship in Hartland Range. Much vexed at this, Puddy had gone down to check out said ship, at rather low level..."Blasted Navy - but I've got the bugger's number" he told us.

I went to the hut next door, which housed the Education Section and woke up the Stn Ed Off, who was having a quiet afternoon snooze after his OM lunch, to ask whether he had a copy of Jane's which included RN ships. He had, so I checked it out, then went back to find Puddy....

"That ship you buzzed", I told him, "...I've found out what it was and also the name of the Captain!"

"Really, that's clever of you, who was it?" he asked.

"Well, it was HMS Bronnington and the Captain is HRH The Prince of Wales".

[wiggy]

How accurate was the Gunpod on the F-4?. I seem to remember that the Americans where rather not so happy with the accuracy of their pods. Did it restrict g-limits? In other words: Was it more considered a benefit or a hindrance for A2A by the 'users'?

To some degree whether it was a benefit or not depended on the Rules of Engagement which of course (?) takes us back to the whole messy story of an internal gun having to be fitted to later variants.

As for accuracy…one for the ex-weapons instructors to answer…, personally I felt that given when wound up (which fortunately it generally was not when firing air to air) the gun was chucking out 100 rounds per second I guess an argument could have been made for the grouping to be less tight.

We had a phase (post Falklands) of doing air to ground with the gun and that was lots of fun.

[wiggy]

Yes, and a particularly messy job for the armourers who had to apply the paint".

Thinks of the number of rounds that were painted to no avail since they subsequently missed the banner..

[BEagle]

How accurate was the Gunpod on the F-4?

Depended a lot on how well it had been set up and harmonised.

But in 1982, if a duffer like me could score 50.1% on air-to-air at Akrotiri and 52% on air-to-ground strafe in the UK, it wasn't too bad at all. No clever hot line sights or the like back then, just the LCOSS aided and abetted by radar range calls from the navigator.

[henra]

To some degree whether it was a benefit or not depended on the Rules of Engagement which of course (?) takes us back to the whole messy story of an internal gun having to be fitted to later variants.

Ok, I understand. So I assume basically it was mostly considered beneficial when visual ID was required before attacking the target.


As for accuracy…one for the ex-weapons instructors to answer…, personally I felt that given when wound up (which fortunately it generally was not when firing air to air) the gun was chucking out 100 rounds per second I guess an argument could have been made for the grouping to be less tight.

Interesting! In WW2 a too tight pattern was not considered desirable for A2A.
I guess that is due to the fact that with fast Fighter Jets you wouldn't want to be close enough to count the rivets of the target aircraft when opening up on them. In WW2 I understand typical engagement distances were rather short, something like 200 - 300 Yards and below.
At what ranges would you typically have engaged the target with the gun?

We had a phase (post Falklands) of doing air to ground with the gun and that was lots of fun.

I can imagine! Like Fireworks for Grown ups ;-)

[henra]

Depended a lot on how well it had been set up and harmonised.

But in 1982, if a duffer like me could score 50.1% on air-to-air at Akrotiri and 52% on air-to-ground strafe in the UK, it wasn't too bad at all. No clever hot line sights or the like back then, just the LCOSS aided and abetted by radar range calls from the navigator.
OK, that is a remarkable score for a gun that was initially not considered as relevant for this type of combat aircraft!

[Wetstart Dryrun]

And also Hunters could tow the flag. Irritatingly, the 180kts tow speed was right in the middle of the RPM range where the inlet relief valves would clatter and chatter.

Dreadful trips, hated them.

[RAFEngO74to09]

Yep end of the shoot the tow aircraft would do a lowish fly past and drop the banner on the airfield.

It was then recovered and taken to the squadron for inspection by the weapons instructors and all others with an interest.

As I recall it each aircraft in the shoot would be firing rounds that were coated with a different colored dye/paint so multiple aircraft take turns firing on one banner and then the individual scores were established by counting the different coloured holes…..

Correct - as a JEngO, it was always fun to watch the debates / arguments about how big an individual hole was and whether it was 1/2/3/4 hits and who was trying to claim a tiny spec of multiple colours around the edge !

Also, the derision a crew would receive when they shot the banner off by hitting the tow line and it landed in the sea - especially when others claimed it was the best shoot they ever had !

You can see a banner being returned and inspected here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GJenE47yRg&t=1100s

[28right]

In 1966 i did 4 months in ATC at Llanbedr. North Wales, In addition to providing Jindivik pilotless target aircraft to the off shore range for the RAF. The range was also used by Canberras from Tarrant Rushton with towed targets, often on a 45,000 foot tow with a flare and lights equipped target for missile shooting. We also had some pilotless Meteor 7’s which were not shot down, but the Jindiviks were expendable. The target aircraft were ‘flown’ by Qualified RAF pilots sitting alongside the civil Contollers who also did the talkdown to landings using PAR equipment.

[2Planks]

Wiggy, 're post #3, if I remember rightly, you needed a dedicated sweep VMC below if aircraft were going live above as the tug crew couldnt clear the range visually. But it is a while ago now....

[TLDNMCL]

In the Summer of '76, after 58 Sqn folded at RAF Wittering, I was posted to hold with Standards Sqn at RAF Brawdy. Amongst whom was the late 'Puddy' Catt, whose flying frequently included towing the flag behind Winston or Clementine, our 2 Meteors.

One afternoon Puddy came in looking even more red faced than normal. It seems that the range sortie had been DNCO'd due to a ship in Hartland Range. Much vexed at this, Puddy had gone down to check out said ship, at rather low level..."Blasted Navy - but I've got the bugger's number" he told us.

I went to the hut next door, which housed the Education Section and woke up the Stn Ed Off, who was having a quiet afternoon snooze after his OM lunch, to ask whether he had a copy of Jane's which included RN ships. He had, so I checked it out, then went back to find Puddy....

"That ship you buzzed", I told him, "...I've found out what it was and also the name of the Captain!"

"Really, that's clever of you, who was it?" he asked.

"Well, it was HMS Bronnington and the Captain is HRH The Prince of Wales".
I imagine it would have given that devious old bugger a warm glow...

[MAINJAFAD]

In 1966 i did 4 months in ATC at Llanbedr. North Wales, In addition to providing Jindivik pilotless target aircraft to the off shore range for the RAF. The range was also used by Canberras from Tarrant Rushton with towed targets, often on a 45,000 foot tow with a flare and lights equipped target for missile shooting. We also had some pilotless Meteor 7’s which were not shot down, but the Jindiviks were expendable. The target aircraft were ‘flown’ by Qualified RAF pilots sitting alongside the civil Contollers who also did the talkdown to landings using PAR equipment.

Plenty of Meteors were shot down at Aberporth post 1966. The Bloodhound boys nailed at least 6 of them between 1969 and 1975, 4 with warhead kills (2 RAF and 2 Swiss), while the Swiss took out another 2 with direct hits by non warhead rounds. There are at least four recorded events of the TWU Hunters and Hawks using the Aberporth range for Air to Air gun work. Some of these are recorded as Aden gun trials while others just say Air to Air gun firings took place.

[LOMCEVAK]

And also Hunters could tow the flag. Irritatingly, the 180kts tow speed was right in the middle of the RPM range where the inlet relief valves would clatter and chatter.

Dreadful trips, hated them.
And 180 KIAS was the maximum speed for opening the canopy and I have seen someone tow the banner with the canopy open!

[Rocket2]

"How accurate was the Gunpod on the F-4?"

I was an Technician on VASS at Brawdy servicing the Meteors & JPs in the mid - late 70's as well as setting up the targets, I also had the great pleasure to fly in Lady Clementine with Puddy & others towing target off the Cornish coast. Sadly I never got a Hunter ride as it went u/s while taxiing out on my next to last day at Brawdy.

Regarding the F4's gun, well all I can remember is that we ran a set of targets for them at Brawdy and only a few, bar one, returned with any damage, the exception were those shot to pieces by a certain F/L George Lee who was unknown to me at the time but of course then went onto win several major gliding championships (I later helped modify one of his gliders for the World's in Australia that he convincingly won) and almost bought his ex ASW-17.

I was truly privelidged to fly & work with Puddy, dropping the used flag at low level then accelerating around to drop a blue note over the airfield was awesome and utterly unforgettable. RIP Sir!

[wiggy]

Regarding the F4's gun, well all I can remember is that we ran a set of targets for them at Brawdy and only a few, bar one, returned with any damage, the exception were those shot to pieces by a certain F/L George Lee !.

Funnily enough for the purposes of this thread I’ve been trying to track down the story of George Lee scoring almost 100% on one banner…mostly I’m sure down to his skills but as I recall there was also something about the way the score was calculated from hits vs rounds expended that came into it…

I’m sure the story made it into print, perhaps in “Air Clues” years back, but it doesn’t seem to have transitioned onto the internet..least not as far as I can see using my limited googling skills :ooh:

[BEagle]

I was truly privelidged to fly & work with Puddy, dropping the used flag at low level then accelerating around to drop a blue note over the airfield was awesome and utterly unforgettable. RIP Sir!

On one occasion, someone shot the flag off Winston early in the range slot, so as he had a lot of fuel, Pud belled up Pembrey and asked for some range time. Of course the RSO had no idea what type of aircraft Pud was flying - until he requested a 'simulated napalm pass' and came howling across the range at about 50ft and as fast as he could! After which he was curtly advised to RTB!

Watching Pud drop the flag, then depart downwind to initials and come roaring over Brawdy in a cloud of condensation with just the nose, wingtips and fin tip visible to the accompaniment of an epic Meatbox blue note was indeed a delight!

Where are such characters today???

[ORAC]

Perhaps apocryphal, or a false memory from so long ago,, but I remember being informed that someone had scored more than 100% on the banner.

The reason being that the squadron was allowed to discard a number of those fired from those carried in the score calculation due to inherent inaccuracy during barrel spin-up and spin-down, and his hits exceeded the remaining allowed number of rounds.

[typerated]

German 16 ship Alpha Jet formation (four lots of four) hits Donna Nook on the Monday (UK day) of Central Enterprise 89.
Leader dives in to FRA strafe - "Pop" just one round fired - presumably the gun jams
Moments later the Scottish range controller (can't remember his name) replies " Blah Blah callsign you score one"
Leader replies " Yah perfect - I only need the one bullet!"

I think the Germans using the Alpha for light CAS and helicopter hunting was probably a bit more practical than our using the Hawk as part of the mixed fighter force

[wiggy]

Perhaps apocryphal, or a false memory from so long ago,, but I remember being informed that someone had scored more than 100% on the banner.

The reason being that the squadron was allowed to discard a number of those fired from those carried in the score calculation due to inherent inaccuracy during barrel spin-up and spin-down, and his hits exceeded the remaining allowed number of rounds.


Yep ORAC some sort of numerical adjustment for spin up/spin down is lodged in my memory somewhere, something along the line of you could end up with rounds going down the spout that weren’t actually regarded in the maths as being fired…but I can’t remember the exact details.

I certainly never hit the dizzy heights of having scores where it (if I’m remembering “it” correctly) was a critical factor.

We need a pet F-4 QWI to pass comment.

[jimjim1]

I bumped in to a 12 min video of what appears to be early air tests of the M61 on F-106A.

In case anyone likes it:-
https://www.military.com/video/guns/machine-guns/m61-vulcan-20mm-cannon-on-f-106a/3732679073001

[jimjim1]

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/153180-reportedgun-dispersion/page/3/"From "Flying Guns – the Modern Era: Development of Aircraft Guns, Ammunition and Installations since 1945""
The M61 is capable of about 3-4 mils when internally mounted, although the centreline gunpod used in the F 4 is less rigid and can manage only 8-10 mils. (one mil equals one metre dispersion at 1,000 m)

Here is the whole passage.
"Accuracy of the guns varies depending on the weapon and the installation. It is measured in mils (one mil equals one metre dispersion at 1,000 m). The .50 inch M3 could manage about 5 mils. The four Mk.12 cannon in the F8U were regarded as inaccurate, reportedly achieving only 12 mils (or 3.6 m at 300 m). The F 100 with four M39 cannon could get all of the shots within 8 mils and 75% within 4 mils. The M61 is capable of about 3-4 mils when internally mounted, although the centreline gunpod used in the F 4 is less rigid and can manage only 8-10 mils."

[teej013]

I was on F4's for several years at Coningsby, Wildenrath, Stanley & MPA, as an armourer.
The SUU gun had six barrels, the primary barrel was harmonised, then barrels 3 & five were harmonised to the primary. This meant that the rounds fired from the primary barrel went where you aimed, but the rest went in a spread around the aiming point, a bit like a cross beween a rifle and a shot gun.

The Gun in The SUU Pod had a clearing cam and a firing cam, when you stopped firing, the live rounds went to the back of the gun and were ejected out the bottom as live rounds when you started firing again. That is why you did not count every round as fired in your calculations.

Some crews were natural gunners, others not so, this occasionaly led to us being requested to load a "Tartan" belt into the A/C of a good crew, ie the 50 rounds visible in the conveyor being the colour as stated in the 700, whilst the remaining rounds in the drum were the colour of the crew who were having trouble hitting the banner.

Sometimes the team collecting the dropped banner and taking it to Ops for scoring had to take out a tin of tipping paint and a broom handle...

[Minnie Burner]

When I first heard the story about George scoring 100% + it was also noted that he fired very short bursts at exactly the right range. This multiplied the number of discounted rounds by the huge number of passes he was able to complete. Most F-4 pilots I knew preferred the opposite technique cos it was a lot more fun. The fact that George also had a great pair of hands was never in dispute.