Pel Air to run NSW Air Ambulance

[Retired Mobi LAME]

Oh no. Who makes these decisions?

[Alice Kiwican]

Oh no. Who makes these decisions?

Well contract goes to tender and operators put in their best proposal before the state government chooses the cheapest option.

That’s how it works usually and I doubt this is any different. Can’t have the more expensive but highly qualified RFDS retaining the contract when there is the cheaper PelAir🤔

[Checklist Charlie]

A very sharpe decision.

CC

[neville_nobody]

From the smh:

A new fleet of NSW Ambulance aircraft, likened to “hospitals in the sky”, will take flight next month.

Deputy Premier Paul Toole said the new planes would improve transport speeds and reach more areas of the state.

The five new Beechcraft King Air 350C planes will be operated and maintained by airline Pel-Air, a wholly owned subsidiary of Regional Express Holdings Limited (REX), under a 10-year contract.

The aircraft will begin flying on January 1 and will replace the current fleet operated out of the Mascot airbase by the Royal Flying Doctor Service.

“These aircraft are like hospitals in the sky, and they can get to some of the most remote regions of the state and land at both commercial airports and smaller runways,” Mr Toole said.

NSW Ambulance Commissioner Dominic Morgan said the medical fit-out on board was tailored to clinicians’ needs and could pick up more than 6000 patients every year.

“Our flight nurses, doctors and pilots are among the best in the country and they helped in the design of what is essentially their office,” Dr Morgan said.

“Their expertise and some of the best planes available means it is a perfect fit for everyone, especially our patients.”

Senior flight nurse Chris Wildey said it was an exciting change for the ambulance service that would improve its capability.

“We have the ability to travel a lot higher and faster,” he said. “We have the ability to do our special missions far better.”

He said staff helped design the cabin fit-outs, including the addition of windows so patients can enjoy views from the plane.

“That’s really good from a patient point of view when they’re feeling pretty ordinary and having an otherwise sub-optimal experience,” he said.

The contract with Pel-Air ends Ambulance NSW’s 19-year partnership with the Royal Flying Doctor Service.


What aircraft did the RFDS put up against a B350?

[chimbu warrior]

He said staff helped design the cabin fit-outs, including the addition of windows so patients can enjoy views from the plane.


Clearly the RFDS weren't able to offer planes with windows.

[Alice Kiwican]

From the smh:



What aircraft did the RFDS put up against a B350?

Apparently their current fleet of windowless B350’s and B200’s

Now I’ll always wonder what the window looking circles on each side of the RFDS aircraft are for?🤔

[Retired Mobi LAME]

Hopefully things may have improved over the years. Having been employed by a very reputable company and doing call out work for Pel Air I still shudder at some of their maintenance practices. At the same time we also did work with the Air Ambulance when the maintenance was carried out by East West. It was like chalk and cheese.

[Capt Fathom]

Perception is everything.
Whether an adequate service is provided is beside the point!

[morno]

Clearly the RFDS weren't able to offer planes with windows.

To be fair, for the aircraft equipped with the TAS system, there were no windows that could be seen out of immediately next to the patients.

[Stationair8]

Doesn’t Rex own Total Aerospace Solutions(TAS)?

[morno]

Doesn’t Rex own Total Aerospace Solutions(TAS)?

Not from anything I can find.

[Mr Proach]

Notwithstanding operational / equipment issues, the main factor for the pilot community is that the pilots employed on this contact have the same or better salary and conditions than those on the previous contract. Anyone know?

[drpixie]

Know a few people ... significantly worse conditions and salary ... plenty have gone (some elsewhere, some just gone).

[Alice Kiwican]

[QUOTE=drpixie;11163270]Know a few people ... significantly worse conditions and salary ... plenty have gone (some elsewhere, some just gone).[/QUOTE

Agreed! I know a couple of pilots who have moved on due significantly worse salary and conditions. No surprise though considering who owns Pel-Air…..

[Stationair8]

No different when the RFDS took over the contract from Pearl.

The Pearl guys had to start over again on first year wages on the RFDS EBA, plus the loss of sick leave you had built up, long service leave entitlements etc.

A mate worked on the NSW Air Ambulance contract in the mid 80’s, as he said very good money, good conditions, top notch equipment, experienced check and training people plus seniority number in Ansett.

[morno]

No different when the RFDS took over the contract from Pearl.

The Pearl guys had to start over again on first year wages on the RFDS EBA, plus the loss of sick leave you had built up, long service leave entitlements etc.

A mate worked on the NSW Air Ambulance contract in the mid 80’s, as he said very good money, good conditions, top notch equipment, experienced check and training people plus seniority number in Ansett.

Perhaps, but I could probably guarantee you that the top bracket at Pel Air wouldn’t even be the bottom bracket of RFDS.

[ACMS]

Perhaps, but I could probably guarantee you that the top bracket at Pel Air wouldn’t even be the bottom bracket of RFDS.


They're now getting highly experienced Airline guys to Pel Air…..

[morno]

They're now getting highly experienced Airline guys to Pel Air…..

And that has what to do with the pay?

[Mr Proach]

If that is the case, I will bet a sheep farm that the other all the employees that work on the government side of this aero medical service will not be subject to an equivalent reduction to their pay and conditions. If the ambulance commissioner, management underlings and the responsible minister had even the slight shred of moral, ethical and human decency then they should all take an equivalent reduction in their salary and conditions. AeroMedical flying is one of the most demanding piloting jobs in aviation, far far in excess of some bureaucrat bearing a title and some bling attached to a uniform. An absolutely appalling situation!

[Mr Proach]

They're now getting highly experienced Airline guys to Pel Air…..
If they have no prior experience in AeroMedical operations they might be in for a big shock especially if the pay and conditions are as poor as some indicate. You would have to be an aviation tragic to do that sort of a job for low pay and poor conditions.

[poohead]

If the ambulance commissioner, management underlings and the responsible minister had even the slight shred of moral, ethical and human decency then they should all take an equivalent reduction in their salary and conditions.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬

Don’t forget he stiffed all his underlings in 2020 and 2021 when he was happy to take his, (and other upper management) pay rises while the worker bees had their promised 2.5% cut whilst he keeps sending out emails saying how much the workload has increased... or so I’ve heard🤪

[mustafagander]

Hi Stationair,
Are you sure that the Pearl guys lost their long service leave entitlements when RFDS took over? As far as I know LSL is a government mandated entitlement which is paid out or credited to an employee when there is a change of ownership of a company. As for sick leave there is a mandatory minimum far below what almost every company offers so it figures that accrued sick leave is lost.

[43Inches]

Are you sure that the Pearl guys lost their long service leave entitlements when RFDS took over?

Taking over a contract is not taking over a business, the new company slides in and pushes the old company out. The existing staff may be offered transitional positions but on new contracts in a new workplace. The company they work for would be required to pay out any existing entitlements as severance pay when they leave, that is if the existing company remains viable and does not slip into insolvency, then the staff get what they can. Pearl would owe entitlements to the workers, however the RFDS would owe them nothing until the start of contract date, at which time everything resets, unless of course part of the tender included a continuance of existing entitlements.

[lucille]

In the US, most aeromedical contracts are run by bottom feeder organisations where belt tightening is the company mantra. They are cost conscious to the extreme.
It’s no surprise that model would have found it’s way over here sooner or later. I remember the halcyon days when aeromedical flying allowed one to support a family of four and eat three meals a day. Something, by the way, the average GA driver could not do.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

I remember the halcyon days when aeromedical flying allowed one to support a family of four and eat three meals a day.
Flogging around in a C402 with a stretcher in the back. Now they want "hospitals in the sky" in high performance turbo props. Guess where the money gets saved.

[ACMS]

Quite right fellas, my comment has nothing to do with pay, I thought you were referring to quality of Pilots in the ranks, I should have read just a little more carefully…….

[Mr Proach]

Taking over a contract is not taking over a business, the new company slides in and pushes the old company out. The existing staff may be offered transitional positions but on new contracts in a new workplace.
This is how the pilot workforce suffer a reduction in pay and conditions. Companies bidding for this type of contract work should compete against each other based on their management ability. There is nothing clever about submitting a tender based on paying lower wages and reduced conditions of employment. Ideally there should an award to cover aeromedical operations so regardless of whether company X or Y win a contract, pilots' pay and conditions won't be adversely affected (just as it is for the government counterparts).

[TBM-Legend]

This is how the pilot workforce suffer a reduction in pay and conditions. Companies bidding for this type of contract work should compete against each other based on their management ability. There is nothing clever about submitting a tender based on paying lower wages and reduced conditions of employment. Ideally there should an award to cover aeromedical operations so regardless of whether company X or Y win a contract, pilots' pay and conditions won't be adversely affected (just as it is for the government counterparts).


A very socialist idea. I guess it fits the current thinking that Russia set the standards for everyone earning the same no matter what you bring to the table except of course the oligarch reap the rewards..

[43Inches]

There is an award, but like most of the higher end work like Airlines it's way below what the current pay rates are. Awards are always safety nets, actual salaries are fought for by the workforce, however awards are also difficult to deal with for companies as they have some clauses that don't favor flexibility so it is both parties interest to negotiate. RFDS had built up a set of remuneration based on a lack of pilots and needing to retain in the expensive urban environment of Sydney. Whoever takes over can choose to continue such pay rates, or just change it and accept losses if that occurs. Anyone who works on limited contracts and tender work should only be budgeting for the time that contract exists. And yes a big part of tendered contracts is to keep wages and conditions low for specialist work, which otherwise would blow out if directly employed by the government. The only real counter to this is scope clauses that limit what contracted agencies can do so they can't white ant other businesses with terms and conditions.

In Australia you are not forced to work anywhere you do not want to, you are free to leave at any time or not accept a contract for any reason. However you are not entitled to beach front property in Coogee or property anywhere as a pilot or any other worker. 5 million others in Sydney make do on things as low paid as cleaning toilets or working supermarket shifts. I'm not saying pilots should get paid that low, I'm saying you have to set the bar for what you accept, because no one else really cares. If what is paid is acceptable, that's it, if not don't do it.

[morno]

When airlines start recruiting again, Pel Air will struggle to get the right pilots with the right experience levels with the pay they are offering.

To see aeromed in this country going down the path it is with Pel Air is quite disappointing. Aeromed shouldn’t be the cheapest contractor, it should be the one with the best experience and proven ability.

[pcx]

Quite a few posters are claiming that Pelair are paying less than the RFDS. I don't doubt this is true.

Can anyone post an approximate comparison If you do please post verifiable figures, not the Townsville refueler told me.

[morno]

Quite a few posters are claiming that Pelair are paying less than the RFDS. I don't doubt this is true.

Can anyone post an approximate comparison If you do please post verifiable figures, not the Townsville refueler told me.

The best I’ve been made aware of was simply the award

[havick]

When airlines start recruiting again, Pel Air will struggle to get the right pilots with the right experience levels with the pay they are offering.

To see aeromed in this country going down the path it is with Pel Air is quite disappointing. Aeromed shouldn’t be the cheapest contractor, it should be the one with the best experience and proven ability.

Honest question, at what point do pilots (including check and training pilots etc) get recycled at RFDS to the point that really any corporate knowledge/experience is much different to Pelair at this point?

I’ve seen the same thing amongst helicopter EMS operators. People come and go, and what was the new player 7-10 years ago is now really no different with experience level to the guys that have been around 20-30+ years.

[Mr Proach]

A very socialist idea. I guess it fits the current thinking that Russia set the standards for everyone earning the same no matter what you bring to the table except of course the oligarch reap the rewards..
I am not advocating equal pay for all regardless of your qualifications responsibilities. I mean if you have an award for a specific job then company Y and X have the same minimum labour cost base. If they're innovative and efficient mangers and can offer better pay and conditions, that's a bonus. I am not referring to an award determined by the "state" rather one that is negotiated by pilot representative groups. There is a general award to cover pilots however, it is horrendously inadequate in many areas.

[Mr Proach]

Honest question, at what point do pilots (including check and training pilots etc) get recycled at RFDS to the point that really any corporate knowledge/experience is much different to PelAir at this point?
I’ve seen the same thing amongst helicopter EMS operators. People come and go, and what was the new player 7-10 years ago is now really no different with experience level to the guys that have been around 20-30+ years.

The RFDS has an attrition rate of pilots, more so in the couple of years prior to COVID. However the gap between the pay and conditions between a RFDS pilot and a PelAIr pilot doing the same job is very significant. If you were to sample the number of pilots that have a long service record with PelAir (AirMed) I believe it will be majorly less than those with the RFDS. COVID has altered this situation due to mass unemployment across the industry. In response to your question, I estimate about 5% of RFDS pilots would have migrated to PelAir and that was more likely due to personal circumstances (family, age etc). In better times maybe even less. So nothwitstanding any more viruses or equivalent events, in about two years from now, I anticipate the average experience of a PelAir pilot based in SYD on the air ambulance service will be between two & four years.
Someone who was in the government involved with assessing tenders once mentioned, the assessors look at the first page (for name and spelling etc) scurry through the "waffle" (aka the all important responses to the critical questions about quality and provision of service) and then look for the price.

[Mr Proach]

Havick, for clarification the majority of those with 20-30 years AirMed experience will be with the RFDS and many of those if not all, will only have worked for the RFDS. Re the migration of 5% from the RFDS I mean from all of the their operations (not just those previously employed on the NSW air ambulance contract) that number might be around 20%. Reference the average experience in about two years (2-4years experience), I wouldn't expect much change to that thereafter. (assuming pay and conditions don't change)

[drpixie]

number of pilots that have a long service record with PelAir (AirMed).

To avoid confusion here, AirMed is not associated with Pelair - completely different companies, completely different operations, very different ethos, no relationship between them.

[lucille]

It’s an unfortunate part of the cycle that we are in, there are too many unemployed ATPL holders out there, employers know this. It’s been like this before and it will be like this again.

I often ask myself what drives us to work in such an unstable industry, always at the mercy of one disaster or other.

[galdian]

It’s an unfortunate part of the cycle that we are in, there are too many unemployed ATPL holders out there, employers know this. It’s been like this before and it will be like this again.

I often ask myself what drives us to work in such an unstable industry, always at the mercy of one disaster or other.

Because on those days - in my case - when you can depart Haneda and overfly Mt Fiji in wintertime - it was impressive.
Or when I'm flying up the east coast BN-CS and parallel a line of active TS for 50nm - it was impressive.
The fact that 60K ton of material (737) can get off the earth - I can sort of explain the physics! - is always impressive, when an A380/B747 does it it's still magic.

I've been fortunate to go to an office that has interested me for my working career - certainly better remunerated in the airline days - but the GA days held their own charm.
Cheers. :ok:

[Trojan1981]

In the US, most aeromedical contracts are run by bottom feeder organisations where belt tightening is the company mantra. They are cost conscious to the extreme.
It’s no surprise that model would have found it’s way over here sooner or later. I remember the halcyon days when aeromedical flying allowed one to support a family of four and eat three meals a day. Something, by the way, the average GA driver could not do.

Very true, and the accident rate for aeromedical operators is extraordinarily high. At one point HEMS crew was the #1 most dangerous job in the USA. Will Australia go the same way? When you can ditch an aeromedical jet in the Pacific then pick up a state aeromedical contract only two years later, that suggests it will. A race to the bottom for conditions will produce the same result here. Ambulance NSW will have to wear the disruption associated with crew churn, unservicabilies and safety issues. The USA has a pilot shortage at this level for very good reason.

[Stationair8]

What happened to Steve McClay?
Still with Clyde’s Circus or retired?

[The Butcher's Dog]

Very true, and the accident rate for aeromedical operators is extraordinarily high. At one point HEMS crew was the #1 most dangerous job in the USA. Will Australia go the same way? When you can ditch an aeromedical jet in the Pacific then pick up a state aeromedical contract only two years later, that suggests it will. A race to the bottom for conditions will produce the same result here. Ambulance NSW will have to wear the disruption associated with crew churn, unservicabilies and safety issues. The USA has a pilot shortage at this level for very good reason.
Time will tell.........time will tell.

[Checkboard]

When you can ditch an aeromedical jet in the Pacific then pick up a state aeromedical contract only two years later, that suggests it will
The Pelair ditching was 11 years ago...

[43Inches]

You make it sound like the RFDS has never had any incidents.....

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2003/aair/aair200302172/

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-11/flying-doctor-service-knew-of-potential-fault-in-fire-system/8698592

[Trojan1981]

The Pelair ditching was 11 years ago...
And Vic Air Ambulance contract was nine years ago...

[Trojan1981]

You make it sound like the RFDS has never had any incidents.....

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2003/aair/aair200302172/

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-11/flying-doctor-service-knew-of-potential-fault-in-fire-system/8698592

I don't work for the RFDS and have no dog in the fight but the issues uncovered by the ATSB/BASI in the ditching investigation were far more fundamental than any uncovered in these RFDS incidents. They also identified a pathological safety culture and a total lack of organisational support for operational crew. I don't know if the current contractor has improved it's game since then. Hopefully they have, or they will end up with a smoking hole in the ground and likely prosecution under the far more stringent WHS Act (created in 2011). Action from the aviation regulator will pale by comparison.

That said, hopefully they have lifted their game. Time will tell.

[Alice Kiwican]

I saw today, not even a month into the contract, that they are advertising for B350 Aeromed pilots in Sydney. Teething troubles or……..

[rodney rude]

No. But got two jets arriving this year that need to be crewed.

[morno]

No. But got two jets arriving this year that need to be crewed.

In a state the size of NSW 🤦‍♂️

[Captn Rex Havack]

Yes Morno....................In a state the size of NSW. Firstly, do some googling, 5 B350s then one to be replaced by two PC24s.

And why does that seem an overkill? Confirm airmed run a bunch of Mustangs out of Bankstown? And have done so for a long time

[TBM-Legend]

RFDS B350 maintenance now contracted out to Falcon Air at BK

[morno]

Yes Morno....................In a state the size of NSW. Firstly, do some googling, 5 B350s then one to be replaced by two PC24s.

And why does that seem an overkill? Confirm airmed run a bunch of Mustangs out of Bankstown? And have done so for a long time

No need to be defensive. NSW isn’t exactly that big of a state that you’d gain much of an advantage by operating a jet vs a turboprop, especially if they were smart and got some B360’s with Blackhawk mods.

You’re not doing primary retrievals, you’re doing inter-hospital transfers. The patients in 99.95% of cases are stable and not needing jet like responses.

Jets would purely be a waste of money. But it looks like that’s what they’ve done. How’s Pel Air’s history of operating aeromed in jets again?

[rodney rude]

Geez morno. You really are a knob. The ambulance service does do lots of primary transfers. Lots. Secondly, Pelair don't pick the aircraft, answ do. Yep, a westwind went diving, but on your logic of no company can ever improve, or can never build a safety record again, best shut down Qantas (qf1) and many other major operators.

[evilducky]

Yes Morno....................In a state the size of NSW. Firstly, do some googling, 5 B350s then one to be replaced by two PC24s.

And why does that seem an overkill? Confirm airmed run a bunch of Mustangs out of Bankstown? And have done so for a long time

I think the experience with Central and Western RFDS was that the PC12 was a quicker machine than the PC24, patients on to patients off, on sectors up to 300ish nm. All the time saved with an extra 150 knots gets lost in longer loading, start flow and checklists. Assume that would translate to PC24 vs. 350 too?

[faction]

The PC24 can be faster from doors close to stretchers off on the 90nm sectors, but you have to remember to start the second engine.

[rcoight]

I think the experience with Central and Western RFDS was that the PC12 was a quicker machine than the PC24, patients on to patients off, on sectors up to 300ish nm. All the time saved with an extra 150 knots gets lost in longer loading, start flow and checklists. Assume that would translate to PC24 vs. 350 too?

You are quite right. IMO only 400nm and longer makes any real difference in terms of time with the jet.

However, if you and others think that time and speed are the only things that matter you couldn’t be more wrong.
Patient comfort and ability to avoid weather are on another planet compared to any turboprop.
Not to mention space for the medical team to work in.
When transporting critically ill people, what’s that worth?

[morno]

Geez morno. You really are a knob. The ambulance service does do lots of primary transfers. Lots. Secondly, Pelair don't pick the aircraft, answ do. Yep, a westwind went diving, but on your logic of no company can ever improve, or can never build a safety record again, best shut down Qantas (qf1) and many other major operators.

I think you are mistaken about what a primary retrieval is. So you’re telling me that Air Ambulance fixed wing in NSW are picking up patients direct from an accident site and transferring them to their first hospital location?

And did I say anything about Pel Air choosing the aircraft? No, I don’t believe I did. Of course NSW Ambulance are the ones who stipulates what they want in their contract. Doesn’t mean I can’t comment on it though.

Now are you finished with the name calling?

[morno]

You are quite right. IMO only 400nm and longer makes any real difference in terms of time with the jet.

However, if you and others think that time and speed are the only things that matter you couldn’t be more wrong.
Patient comfort and ability to avoid weather are on another planet compared to any turboprop.
Not to mention space for the medical team to work in.
When transporting critically ill people, what’s that worth?

You are quite right rcoight. But if that were really a huge consideration for these companies, wouldn’t we have more than a handful of them in the country?

[rcoight]

You are quite right rcoight. But if that were really a huge consideration for these companies, wouldn’t we have more than a handful of them in the country?

By the end of this year there will be eight, when three years ago there were none.
But I agree - turboprops in the form of King Airs and PC12s will and should be the mainstay into the future.
They do what they do exceptionally well, but there is a place for the jets in the mix too.

[43Inches]

I cant really see any disadvantage to the PC-24 except some strips the Kingair may be better suited to. Modern jet, what extra time does it need to prepare and get under way than a similar sized turbo-prop? Once airborne it will be faster en-route and it doesn't suffer the slow downs of commercial traffic if its operating medical priority. If you are comparing two airliners fair enough, but even then these days a 737 can get airborne not much slower than a dash-8 from start of taxi, most of the delay is just securing the cabin. And as said above the jet will have far better weather avoidance and altitude capabilities, as well as better prioritisation when not on medical priority. Pretty sure a medivac from Broken Hill to Sydney or Melbourne would be noticeably faster in the PC-24 than any turboprop. It also gives the opportunity to fly the patient closer to the specialist, or the specialist to the patient faster and in more comfort to get prepared. BTW the PC-24 is designed for these ops, it's not some 40 year old airframe re-jigged for aeromed.

If money was not a consideration I'd get V-22s, huge cabin, lands vertically, same max speed as the B-360, but can deliver the patient direct to the hospital. Might shake them up a bit though.

[poohead]

If money was not a consideration I'd get V-22s, huge cabin, lands vertically, same max speed as the B-360, but can deliver the patient direct to the hospital. Might shake them up a bit though.


Some of those funds will need to beef up some of the helipads that are out there.... even the current rotary wing fleet can’t land when too fat on some pads.
It’d sure get some stickybeakers out looking when bringing a v22 over the burbs blowing the washing off some clothesline’s.... it’d be a lovely sight I reckon.

[evilducky]

I cant really see any disadvantage to the PC-24 except some strips the Kingair may be better suited to. Modern jet, what extra time does it need to prepare and get under way than a similar sized turbo-prop? Once airborne it will be faster en-route and it doesn't suffer the slow downs of commercial traffic if its operating medical priority. If you are comparing two airliners fair enough, but even then these days a 737 can get airborne not much slower than a dash-8 from start of taxi, most of the delay is just securing the cabin. And as said above the jet will have far better weather avoidance and altitude capabilities, as well as better prioritisation when not on medical priority. Pretty sure a medivac from Broken Hill to Sydney or Melbourne would be noticeably faster in the PC-24 than any turboprop. It also gives the opportunity to fly the patient closer to the specialist, or the specialist to the patient faster and in more comfort to get prepared. BTW the PC-24 is designed for these ops, it's not some 40 year old airframe re-jigged for aeromed.


Again, can't speak to King Airs, but as for 12 vs 24 - the 12NG is exceptionally quick to get going. Only functional test required is the stick pusher, almost everything else is just check that it's in AUTO. 5-6 minutes between doors shut and take-off. 24 at least double that. Loading also signifcantly slower on the 24 - have to remove the back stretcher every time you load or unload, and your primary retrieval isn't going to be on the back stretcher as it's a hard one to access in flight when they arrest. Loader design on the 24 more complex, longer setup and packdown.

Then there's reliability as well, I think the joke going around one section in early PC24 days was along the lines of - What's the speed difference between the PC12 and PC24? 265 knots. Might be improved now, but the 12 is still a mature aeroplane with almost all of the flaws ironed out.

The jets certainly avoid the weather better, but for everything except the far west of NSW - the time savings for patients exist only on paper.

[rcoight]

Again, can't speak to King Airs, but as for 12 vs 24 - the 12NG is exceptionally quick to get going. Only functional test required is the stick pusher, almost everything else is just check that it's in AUTO. 5-6 minutes between doors shut and take-off. 24 at least double that. Loading also signifcantly slower on the 24 - have to remove the back stretcher every time you load or unload, and your primary retrieval isn't going to be on the back stretcher as it's a hard one to access in flight when they arrest. Loader design on the 24 more complex, longer setup and packdown.

Then there's reliability as well, I think the joke going around one section in early PC24 days was along the lines of - What's the speed difference between the PC12 and PC24? 265 knots. Might be improved now, but the 12 is still a mature aeroplane with almost all of the flaws ironed out.

The jets certainly avoid the weather better, but for everything except the far west of NSW - the time savings for patients exist only on paper.

I'm going to agree with some of what you've written, and disagree with some as well.

You are right in terms of how quick a -12 is to get going. It takes hardly any time at all and it is probably twice as quick from doors closed to taxying than the -24.
However, comparing the -24 to a King Air is a totally different matter. I've observed dozens (probably hundreds) of King Airs loading, starting, and getting going and they seem to take forever.
I wouldn't be surprised if the PC24 was as quick or quicker than the King Air in that regard these days.
It needs to be remembered that when the PC24 first arrived it was an entirely new aircraft being operated by pilots / organisations that had never operated jets before.
Initially the checklists were extremely long and laborious to go through.
Pilatus has massively tidied these up now to the point they are virtually unrecognisable compared to the first versions, and after the first sector of the day it is actually quite quick to get going. The transit checklist has eliminated probably 60-70% of what was initially being done every start.

As far as loading goes, I don't know where you get you info from, but for us it is absolutely not necessary to remove the rear RHS stretcher to load / unload the others.
You do need to remove the LHS stretcher to get to the front one, but 90% of the time you either have a patient on that stretcher or luggage so it would have to come off anyway. If you're on a primary retrieval where you don't need that stretcher, why did you take it? You don't have to.
Overall though it does take longer to load / unload than the PC12, but is it any longer than a King Air? Not so sure about that.

I'd also like to see the $/nm for a B350/360 compared to a PC24. Of course I'd expect the jet to be more expensive but I bet the gap isn't as much as some people seem to think.

Finally, in terms of reliability, there were definitely some teething problems at the start but this aircraft is a brand new design, not some 50 year old banger in a new frock.
Name another entirely new aircraft that hasn't had a few issues in the early days.
When the PC12 first came out there were all sorts of problems. Now they are one of the most reliable aircraft in the world with a safety record the old designs can only dream of. Give the -24 a few more years and the kinks will be ironed out as well. It's already much more reliable than it was a year or two ago.

It's hard to understand some of the negativity in this place. It really is.
You've got a state of the art medical jet that can carry 50% more patients on any flight (or several more sitters), fly much further much faster in more comfort with more room in a whisper quiet cabin. For the pilots it's a delight to fly and the medical team a pleasure to be in, and - most importantly - for the patients it's on another level than anything even the best turboprop could offer.

As I've said before, it'll never replace the workhorses that do such a great job day in day out.
It's not meant to. But it complements them and adds another layer of capability which people (especially, on here, pilots) should be happy about.

[Captain Garmin]

Seems nearly ready for delivery looking at this Youtube video

[Stationair8]

Looks very nice.

[RustyFlyerBoy]

Anyone have a rough idea of take-home pay? Typical rostering? General QOL?

[172heavy]

Anyone have a rough idea of take-home pay? Typical rostering? General QOL?
The last I heard from an engineer working for them at Mascot was $108K salary for both pilots and engineers. 4/4 rotating roster. No idea if this has changed in the last few months with the PC24 on its way.

[Stationair8]

When does the PC-24 start line flying?

[Capn Rex Havoc]

PELAIR must be struggling to fly the king airs let alone pc 24s. That’s what happens when you pay peanuts.

[Trevor the lover]

Year 1 is $150,000 once checked to line.

[Capt Fathom]

Year 1 is $150,000 once checked to line.

Nice peanuts 👍

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Year 1 is $150,000 once checked to line.

Has that been approved for Victoria?
Fantastic if it is 150K - but still not enough to keep people. Quite a big jump from the 103K just a year ago.

​​​​​​​

[Trevor the lover]

Not enough for some people who want to fly airlines - but depends on the guy, his flying desires, his financial situation, etc etc

[donpizmeov]

Not enough for some people who want to fly airlines - but depends on the guy, his flying desires, his financial situation, etc etc

A step in the right direction. You out of retirement yet Trev?

[Trevor the lover]

Still part timing for 2 more months then its full time on the tractor, motorbikes, fishing kayak, power tools etc etc. Hows the new job

[Stationair8]

Any truth that the wage is about $170,000 now, which includes a component paid from NSW government? Good money and nice to see aeromedical crews getting decent pay in Sydney.

Heard the Pilatus on frequency last week, must be proving flights.

[Stan dard]

Any truth that the wage is about $170,000 now, which includes a component paid from NSW government? Good money and nice to see aeromedical crews getting decent pay in Sydney.

Heard the Pilatus on frequency last week, must be proving flights.

Pelair undercut all of the other providers for the contract, and is now complaining that they cant afford to run the contract. Sources tell me that they are dropping anywhere from 20-50% of their shifts on a daily basis, it must be getting expensive for them.

[AnotherFSO]

Media release from the NSW Minister for Health, Minister for Regional Health, 15 December 2023.

Two state-of-the-art jet aircraft will soon join the NSW Ambulance fleet, optimising response times for patients in rural and regional areas.

Minister for Health Ryan Park said for the first time, NSW Ambulance will have 2 new Pilatus PC-24 jet aircraft in its fleet, as part of a $54.3 million boost to increase the capability of Aeromedical Operations.

“These 2 new jets are equipped with the latest technology and medical equipment to better serve our patients, flight nurses, doctors and pilots,” Mr Park said.

“These jets can fly faster and further without the need for refuelling and they will be an invaluable resource for communities in regional, rural and remote NSW.

“Whether responding to a motor vehicle accident or transferring a critically ill patient from a regional hospital to a tertiary health facility, these PC-24 aircraft will be a major boost for the health of regional and remote communities throughout NSW.

“NSW Ambulance is the first state government ambulance service in Australia to specifically design the PC-24 interior and patient fit-out for aeromedical operations.”

NSW Ambulance Commissioner Dr Dominic Morgan said flight nurse training has now commenced for the PC-24 jets.

“Our dedicated team of flight nurses, doctors and pilots already provide high-level clinical care for all patients throughout NSW,” Dr Morgan said.

“That level of care will be enhanced thanks to the increased range, speed and optimised internal medical fit-out of these aircraft.

“These two new jets will complement the existing five Beechcraft King Air 350C planes in the NSW Ambulance fleet.”

The new PC-24 aircraft will be operated and maintained by Pel-Air, as part of a 10-year contract with NSW Ambulance.

Pel-Air Chairman, the Hon. John Sharp AM, said these will be the first jet aircraft to join the NSW Ambulance fleet.

“Pel-Air congratulates NSW Ambulance for making this significant visionary investment in aerial emergency medical response,” Mr Sharp said.

“This aircraft is a game changer for aeromedical services in a state as vast as NSW, and will help NSW Ambulance save lives."

Aerolite, Switzerland and Total Aerospace Solutions in Sydney have been contracted to complete the medical fit out of the Pilatus PC-24s.

Member for Heffron Minister Ron Hoenig joined Minister Park at Sydney airport to take a first look at the new aircraft.

“NSW Ambulance has an incredible aeromedical history and have been operating one of its bases out of Kingsford Smith for more than 55 years,” Mr Hoenig said.

“I am sure these state of the art new planes will make a welcome addition to operations based out of Mascot, when they enter service next year.”

NSW Ambulance Fixed Wing Operations clinicians transport more than 6000 patients every year.

Both PC-24s aircraft will be ready to take to the skies to treat and transport patients by mid-2024.

[Alice Kiwican]

Media release from the NSW Minister for Health, Minister for Regional Health, 15 December 2023.

Two state-of-the-art jet aircraft will soon join the NSW Ambulance fleet, optimising response times for patients in rural and regional areas.

Minister for Health Ryan Park said for the first time, NSW Ambulance will have 2 new Pilatus PC-24 jet aircraft in its fleet, as part of a $54.3 million boost to increase the capability of Aeromedical Operations.

“These 2 new jets are equipped with the latest technology and medical equipment to better serve our patients, flight nurses, doctors and pilots,” Mr Park said.

“These jets can fly faster and further without the need for refuelling and they will be an invaluable resource for communities in regional, rural and remote NSW.

“Whether responding to a motor vehicle accident or transferring a critically ill patient from a regional hospital to a tertiary health facility, these PC-24 aircraft will be a major boost for the health of regional and remote communities throughout NSW.

“NSW Ambulance is the first state government ambulance service in Australia to specifically design the PC-24 interior and patient fit-out for aeromedical operations.”

NSW Ambulance Commissioner Dr Dominic Morgan said flight nurse training has now commenced for the PC-24 jets.

“Our dedicated team of flight nurses, doctors and pilots already provide high-level clinical care for all patients throughout NSW,” Dr Morgan said.

“That level of care will be enhanced thanks to the increased range, speed and optimised internal medical fit-out of these aircraft.

“These two new jets will complement the existing five Beechcraft King Air 350C planes in the NSW Ambulance fleet.”

The new PC-24 aircraft will be operated and maintained by Pel-Air, as part of a 10-year contract with NSW Ambulance.

Pel-Air Chairman, the Hon. John Sharp AM, said these will be the first jet aircraft to join the NSW Ambulance fleet.

“Pel-Air congratulates NSW Ambulance for making this significant visionary investment in aerial emergency medical response,” Mr Sharp said.

“This aircraft is a game changer for aeromedical services in a state as vast as NSW, and will help NSW Ambulance save lives."

Aerolite, Switzerland and Total Aerospace Solutions in Sydney have been contracted to complete the medical fit out of the Pilatus PC-24s.

Member for Heffron Minister Ron Hoenig joined Minister Park at Sydney airport to take a first look at the new aircraft.

“NSW Ambulance has an incredible aeromedical history and have been operating one of its bases out of Kingsford Smith for more than 55 years,” Mr Hoenig said.

“I am sure these state of the art new planes will make a welcome addition to operations based out of Mascot, when they enter service next year.”

NSW Ambulance Fixed Wing Operations clinicians transport more than 6000 patients every year.

Both PC-24s aircraft will be ready to take to the skies to treat and transport patients by mid-2024.

All they have to do now is retain their crew……..

[rodney rude]

As does EVERY other operator that is not airline

[Stan dard]

Not quite, there are plenty of half decent operators that are retaining crew (Plus a few dollars).

[Stationair8]

Wonder if the Vic Air Ambulance pilots will get a pay rise, with the new IR laws?

[The Butcher's Dog]

"Pel Air to run the NSW Air Ambulance"........................................is that what the NSW Ambulance are thinking?