"Qantas pilots lose union president after year of turbulence"

[MelbourneFlyer]

Qantas pilots lose union president after year of turbulence

The Qantas pilots’ union has punted its president for the second time since the Covid crisis erupted in early 2020.

Captain Murray Butt was reappointed as the Australian and International Pilots Association president in January, 2021, after previously holding the post from 2016 to 2018.

He replaced Boeing 737 pilot Mark Sedgman, who oversaw negotiations for new long haul and short haul agreements in 2019 and 2020 but struck turbulence when the pandemic took hold.

With hundreds of pilots made redundant and many more stood down, Captain Butt was part of a group made up of mostly A380 pilots who sought to gain control of AIPA’s powerful committee of management (CoM).

When Mr Sedgman’s executive team learned of plans to replace them, they resigned en masse, but Captain Butt’s tenure was to be short-lived.

Despite guiding AIPA through a difficult year with hundreds of pilots remaining stood down and working secondary jobs, Captain Butt was not re-elected to the CoM.

His replacement will not be appointed until the next scheduled meeting of the committee in February.

He would not comment on the shock election outcome on Tuesday, but it’s understood there were some misgivings among AIPA members about the disproportionate number of A380 pilots on the executive.

One pilot who spoke to The Australian on the condition of anonymity, said there was a sense that the AIPA had become more combative than collaborative with Qantas.

He said there had been too much time and energy spent exploring legal avenues against stand downs, instead of addressing issues such as the effect of long stints of isolation enforced upon pilots who continued to work through the pandemic.

“Hopefully with a committee that represents the fleet more broadly, we will get better representation,” said the pilot.

Qantas has 12 A380s in its fleet, of which two are being retired, 11 Boeing 787s, 28 A330s and 80 737s.

In coming years, the 737 fleet will be replaced with narrow body jets from the Airbus A320neo family and smaller A220s.

The shift would mean new enterprise agreements for pilots making the jump from 737s to A321XLRs as part of what Qantas called Project Winton.

Any negotiations could be undermined by turbulence within AIPA which suffered another blow earlier in the year, after losing the exclusive right to represent Qantas pilots.

The Fair Work Commission ruling found AIPA did not necessarily offer better representation than the Australian Federation of Air Pilots which hailed the judgment as a major victory.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-pilots-lose-union-president-after-year-of-turbulence/news-story/5b834bc114ada2f6519dc882cf845662

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

“Sedgman” FFS. You’d think it wouldn’t be too hard to at least get the bloke’s name right. Yet again, when journos can’t even do the basic easy stuff properly, how are we supposed to believe anything else they write?

[Mr Proach]

As for "Mr/Ms anonymity" regarding comments of the union's combative approach, that is a natural consequence given the purpose of unions is to protect it's members and fight for better pay and improved working conditions. Albeit there are sycophants in the pilot community, I consider those comments were fabricated by some fledgling journalist looking to bulk up a report. "One pilot who spoke to The Australian on the condition of anonymity....." or was it really a cabaret dancer or plumber pretending to be a pilot? The one circumstance that will ensure delivery of reduced wages and working conditions for the employee group is division amongst themselves.

[C441]

One pilot who spoke to The Australian on the condition of anonymity, said there was a sense that the AIPA had become more combative than collaborative with Qantas.

From a few conversations I've had, I'd suggest there's probably quite a few who believe exactly the opposite. There's quite a few out there that believe AIPA have been too compliant and not combative enough, especially when it came to prolonged and indefinite stand-down.

[SandyPalms]

From a few conversations I've had, I'd suggest there's probably quite a few who believe exactly the opposite. There's quite a few out there that believe AIPA have been too compliant and not combative enough, especially when it came to prolonged and indefinite stand-down.

did the same conversations indicate why they didn't vote? No use in supporting the incumbent and then letting him be voted out. No one else to blame.

[Paragraph377]

Although I am long time retired, I would imagine that when dealing with a worm like Joyce you would need to be combative as there is no depth to the lengths he would go to so as to make sure his salary, bonuses and other tidbits remain safe. Grounding international operations rings a bell. You fight fire with fire. Better to die on your feet than on your knees.

[dr dre]

Better to die on your feet than on your knees.


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/543x347/617c86a1_9c51_42a9_9a20_9103493fd0b8_9a2b18c8f33ec2474355c80 e86f074e1b15cd655.jpeg

[Australopithecus]

Hey, why don’t you post the salary package from say…Delta. Or American. As I recall US ALPA negotiated their pay as well as the strike the cartoon mischaracterised. A strike that took place over 32 years ago. Plus Lorenzo dearly deserved a strike, only by an A-10

[C441]

did the same conversations indicate why they didn't vote? No use in supporting the incumbent and then letting him be voted out. No one else to blame.
Most of those conversations came before the vote.

I'm not privy to whether they voted or not or who they may have voted for, but just as the lone pilot contacted for the article suggested some felt the recent CoM were too combative, others felt they weren't combative enough. Either way, a perceived inadequacy in dealing with the stand-downs in particular, would not be particularly conductive to re-election of those responsible for those dealings.

Better to die on your feet than on your knees.
Missed a word: Better to die on your feet than live on your knees. (As quoted by Midnight Oil and, no doubt many before them….)

[EPIRB]

The members haven’t even received any communication from AIPA informing us of the results of the election yet.

[dr dre]

From a few conversations I've had, I'd suggest there's probably quite a few who believe exactly the opposite. There's quite a few out there that believe AIPA have been too compliant and not combative enough, especially when it came to prolonged and indefinite stand-down.

As much as some may disagree the stand downs were never going to be legally ended, especially after the ALAEA lost their case in October 2020. Too little industrial help was given to actively employed pilots undergoing the hardships of forced quarantine. Any minor improvements to alleviate stresses of forced quarantine that were gained were almost always because of the lobbying of individual groups of pilots working in conjunction with management, seemingly without union assistance. Isn’t that why we pay our dues?

It’s a different world now, anyone trying to keep the unrealistic conditions from the past is just going to send flying elsewhere in the current environment. As seen with the EBAs which secured the 787 and A350 the pilot group as a whole are willing to agree to still good deals in order to secure flying, and I don’t think, beyond a very small vocal minority, there’s any appetite to “shove it up the company’s backside” ala Eastern Airlines circa 1989.

Need realistic union representation for the real world, and realistic ambitions to ensure new types are flown by mainline pilots.

[Mr Proach]

I once heard if you want (perceived) glamour, enormous legal accountability, intense scrutiny, never ending attacks on your employment conditions and be treated with contempt for relatively mediocre pay and conditions then become a plane driver. If you don't need the glamour and want good pay and conditions become a train driver. (train drivers have the intelligence to know the value of standing together)

[wombat watcher]

You are obviously not old enough to remember Bernie Willingale then.

[Mr Proach]

WW I am old enough not to remember everything. Was he involved with the railway union? Would you elaborate?

[wombat watcher]

He was the union leader for the train drivers union in NSW when Neville Wran was Premier.
He was always leading the train drivers who obviously stood together on all sorts of strikes and stoppage.
Wran decided that he had had enough and and cleaned them up. Bernie was never heard of again and nor was their union.
Maybe that is where Hawke took his lead from in 1989?
Maybe also Joyce in 2011? Don’t hear much of Steve and the AALEA or Sheldon and the TWU these days. They got cleaned up too.

[neville_nobody]

If you don't need the glamour and want good pay and conditions become a train driver. (train drivers have the intelligence to know the value of standing together)

Well that's not going to last much longer as you are being automated out which won't be happening in aviation any time soon if at all.

As for that Australian article sounds like the author is trying to suck up to QF management. Maybe a bit of quid pro quo for his next piece. Given how long AIPA has been a extension of QF management it's amusing that the author is suggesting AIPA is to combative.

[theheadmaster]

Given how long AIPA has been a extension of QF management it's amusing that the author is suggesting AIPA is to combative.

If that is the perception, then perhaps that is where AIPA needs to spend some effort communicating with members. I believe there were some agreements made by the AIPA President in the early 2000s with QF that the Committee did not believe they had given agreement/approval to, but apart from that I don't believe the perception has been reality for at least the last 20 years or so.

[C441]

“Sedgman” FFS. You’d think it wouldn’t be too hard to at least get the bloke’s name right.
I wonder if Robyn Ironside browsed on Pprune for any response to her article as the former President's name has name been corrected in the article.

Given how long AIPA has been a extension of QF management it's amusing that the author is suggesting AIPA is to combative.
I'm not sure the author is suggesting that, rather one pilot she spoke to indicated that as their belief.
"One pilot who spoke to The Australian on the condition of anonymity, said there was a sense that the AIPA had become more combative than collaborative with Qantas."

[theheadmaster]

My post above may not have been clear about what I part of the quoted text I was responding to. I was responding specifically to the statement that AIPA was an extension of Qantas management.

[Paragraph377]

Wouldn’t it be nice if Qantas management viewed pilots as a valuable part of their organisation, as an important cog in the safety wheel, as a valuable asset that they invest heavily in? But nah, management are too stupid, too combative and too arrogant to see that the pilot group are a section of employees that are skilled, talented and integral to the safe operation and the longevity of the airline. Narcissists like Joyce sadly think that the CEO is the litmus test for a great organisation. Ha. Hardly. Most CEO’s are quite simply bottom feeding parasites that are slippery shysters who you wouldn’t piss on if they were on fire.

[Ken Borough]

There are many parts to an airline, all of which consist of people who are 'skilled, talented and integral to the safe operation and the longevity of the airline', some being more so than others but every single employee has a valuable role to play. It’s an inescapable fact so please don’t think that pilots are a special group of employees who demand more respect than others. Respect is earned!

[AerialPerspective]

“Sedgman” FFS. You’d think it wouldn’t be too hard to at least get the bloke’s name right. Yet again, when journos can’t even do the basic easy stuff properly, how are we supposed to believe anything else they write?

I know, it's a disease in the media now, apparently ever since the major mastheads realised they could save millions if they sacked all their sub-editors - they were the one's that checked spelling, context and grammar and the accuracy of names and what was being reported.

TBH, even Australian Aviation can't get basic details right sometimes.

Those same people who write this garbage then go on to be media 'advisors' which is why every media release from major companies basically says nothing but is just a moronic drone on using as many weasel words and vacuous statements as possible. You know, like we used to say once, 'combining efforts'. Then sometime in the 90s it became 'reducing duplication' and now it's 'leveraging adjacencies'.

I often say, a bit less of that piffle and pretend words, someone needs to tell these people what a verb is versus an adjective and a bit more time spent getting basic things correct such as people's names.

It doesn't keep me up nights but it does annoy the crap out of me - TV journalists are worse - using expressions such as 'return back' or 'huge massive' or 'big giant'.

[grusome]

Or a "new initiative"!

[MickG0105]

... they were the one's that checked spelling, context and grammar and the accuracy of names and what was being reported.

That would be 'ones', as in the plural form of one not its possessive case. 'Ones who' would generally be preferred over 'ones that' but the distinction between 'who' for people and 'that' for things has become somewhat blurred these days.

[Mr Proach]

Quote: "......... please don’t think that pilots are a special group of employees who demand more respect than others. Respect is earned!"

So in your view you think an accountant/financial controller or some so titled "accountable manger" has the same level of responsibility and is monitored to same degree as a pilot?
Pilots "earn respect" by virtue of what they do every time they perform a flight which is infinitely more times than a fancy mouth HR/Manager who know how to fool an unknowing audience into believing that hey are instrumental to the integrity and safety practices of an aviation organisation. These are the same group of people that regularly engage in the organisational abuse, intimidation and victimisation of pilots. These people know that it is very easy to get away with these appalling practices because they know how to obfuscate the truth behind a labyrinth of manuals also knowing there won't be any extensive probing from the authorities because they can easily dismiss them at any time of their choosing. This is poles apart from a pilot who in this day and age will be investigated for any minor deviation (including non-safety related matters) let alone for a more significant event after which he/she will investigated to the nth degree by a panel of people who like said managers wouldn't have the remotest idea of what it takes to handle an emergency whilst trying to control a complex piece of machinery in a three dimensional environment.
And are all the participants who work in an aviation organisation monitored by recording devices? (ANSWER = NO) Will these people ever have to make to spilt second decisions under extremely traumatic conditions? (ANSWER = NO) Do these people have to operate under the weight of more than a million pages of complex rules and regulations all of which ensure the pilot will bear the ultimate responsibility? (ANSWER = NO). Are pilots remunerated commensurate for the accountability and legal responsibility they incur every time they step foot in a aircraft? (ANSWER = NO).
This only skims the surface of the burden that is placed upon a pilot throughout the execution of his/her duties, so does a pilot deserve more respect for their role & responsibilities within an aviation organisation? (ANSWER = IF NO, then remove all the rules, regulations and manuals that are binding on a pilot and remove all the recording devices that monitor a pilot's actions and reduce the degree of scrutiny that pilots are subjected to, otherwise, the ANSWER = YES)

[Jetsbest]

You forgot the the relative ‘fragility’ of a pilot’s career through the vagaries of medical requirements & scrutiny compared to other jobs…. 👍🤔

[Paragraph377]

Quote: "......... please don’t think that pilots are a special group of employees who demand more respect than others. Respect is earned!"

So in your view you think an accountant/financial controller or some so titled "accountable manger" has the same level of responsibility and is monitored to same degree as a pilot?
Pilots "earn respect" by virtue of what they do every time they perform a flight which is infinitely more times than a fancy mouth HR/Manager who know how to fool an unknowing audience into believing that hey are instrumental to the integrity and safety practices of an aviation organisation. These are the same group of people that regularly engage in the organisational abuse, intimidation and victimisation of pilots. These people know that it is very easy to get away with these appalling practices because they know how to obfuscate the truth behind a labyrinth of manuals also knowing there won't be any extensive probing from the authorities because they can easily dismiss them at any time of their choosing. This is poles apart from a pilot who in this day and age will be investigated for any minor deviation (including non-safety related matters) let alone for a more significant event after which he/she will investigated to the nth degree by a panel of people who like said managers wouldn't have the remotest idea of what it takes to handle an emergency whilst trying to control a complex piece of machinery in a three dimensional environment.
And are all the participants who work in an aviation organisation monitored by recording devices? (ANSWER = NO) Will these people ever have to make to spilt second decisions under extremely traumatic conditions? (ANSWER = NO) Do these people have to operate under the weight of more than a million pages of complex rules and regulations all of which ensure the pilot will bear the ultimate responsibility? (ANSWER = NO). Are pilots remunerated commensurate for the accountability and legal responsibility they incur every time they step foot in a aircraft? (ANSWER = NO).
This only skims the surface of the burden that is placed upon a pilot throughout the execution of his/her duties, so does a pilot deserve more respect for their role & responsibilities within an aviation organisation? (ANSWER = IF NO, then remove all the rules, regulations and manuals that are binding on a pilot and remove all the recording devices that monitor a pilot's actions and reduce the degree of scrutiny that pilots are subjected to, otherwise, the ANSWER = YES)
Now that is one heck of an intelligent and articulate reply. Well said 👍

[Mr Proach]

Correct, that is why I included the sentence beginning, "This only skims the surface....."

[Mr Proach]

P377, thanks for the comment (I did miss the odd letter here and there).
JB, the comment re the "This only skims the surface....." was in reply to your post. ( I haven't mastered the quote function)

[Paragraph377]

P377, thanks for the comment (I did miss the odd letter here and there).
JB, the comment re the "This only skims the surface....." was in reply to your post. ( I haven't mastered the quote function)
I’m not bothered about grammatical errors mate, I make plenty myself. It was the body of your comment that I really liked, the correct grammar was irrelevant. Poor old Ken has been hanging around Pilot forums for years, you think he would have learned enough about a Pilot’s role by now???

[Mr Proach]

Oh, is that "CAN CAN" Ken?

[AerialPerspective]

That would be 'ones', as in the plural form of one not its possessive case. 'Ones who' would generally be preferred over 'ones that' but the distinction between 'who' for people and 'that' for things has become somewhat blurred these days.

Agreed. I shall do penance for that, but it was late and I was tired but no excuse. Thanks for pointing it out.

[AerialPerspective]

Quote: "......... please don’t think that pilots are a special group of employees who demand more respect than others. Respect is earned!"

So in your view you think an accountant/financial controller or some so titled "accountable manger" has the same level of responsibility and is monitored to same degree as a pilot?
Pilots "earn respect" by virtue of what they do every time they perform a flight which is infinitely more times than a fancy mouth HR/Manager who know how to fool an unknowing audience into believing that hey are instrumental to the integrity and safety practices of an aviation organisation. These are the same group of people that regularly engage in the organisational abuse, intimidation and victimisation of pilots. These people know that it is very easy to get away with these appalling practices because they know how to obfuscate the truth behind a labyrinth of manuals also knowing there won't be any extensive probing from the authorities because they can easily dismiss them at any time of their choosing. This is poles apart from a pilot who in this day and age will be investigated for any minor deviation (including non-safety related matters) let alone for a more significant event after which he/she will investigated to the nth degree by a panel of people who like said managers wouldn't have the remotest idea of what it takes to handle an emergency whilst trying to control a complex piece of machinery in a three dimensional environment.
And are all the participants who work in an aviation organisation monitored by recording devices? (ANSWER = NO) Will these people ever have to make to spilt second decisions under extremely traumatic conditions? (ANSWER = NO) Do these people have to operate under the weight of more than a million pages of complex rules and regulations all of which ensure the pilot will bear the ultimate responsibility? (ANSWER = NO). Are pilots remunerated commensurate for the accountability and legal responsibility they incur every time they step foot in a aircraft? (ANSWER = NO).
This only skims the surface of the burden that is placed upon a pilot throughout the execution of his/her duties, so does a pilot deserve more respect for their role & responsibilities within an aviation organisation? (ANSWER = IF NO, then remove all the rules, regulations and manuals that are binding on a pilot and remove all the recording devices that monitor a pilot's actions and reduce the degree of scrutiny that pilots are subjected to, otherwise, the ANSWER = YES)

Very thorough response, the only thing I'd just mention (I know you said are all monitored = NO but.......) some other safety sensitive areas are monitored such as Load Control. All conversations recorded and every single keystroke is recorded and accessible after the fact meaning that an error which might be a typo may not be dealt with that way by one of the glorified HR people you allude to.

However, while Load Controllers can make a mistake that can potentially break something or cause an accident, in airlines at least there are several other people involved in the chain that provide an opportunity for errors to be picked up beforehand. Load Controllers don't do their work at 40,000 feet in a potentially hostile environment either so that's something they don't have to contend with that a Pilot does.

What used to get right up my nose was not just these facile 'People Team' or 'HR' 'Consultants' that didn't know anything, but those that would pick up a phrase here or there and pretend they're an expert as if it would fool anyone.

Mind you, Pilots are people too and are subject to all the behavioural variations that apply to everyone else. I remember distinctly being verbally attacked by not just a Pilot, but a senior management pilot (not the CP, but a Deputy) who came into my office ranting and raving like a lunatic accusing me of something I never said or overreacting in a way that would rival that tennis player from the 70s (name escapes me).

It was SO EXTREME I had to yell at him to get him to shut the hell up for a nano-second so I could get a word in edgewise.

I have to admit, I walked away from that exchange thinking "Jesus, and they let you fly a machine with 100s of people's lives at stake".

Isolated incident I know but it just shows that while some jobs seem to attract narcissists (HR), there are also other jobs that have narcissists in their ranks.

[Mr Proach]

Yes AP, unfortunately you do. I think the key word is "management" pilot. Some are pilots who carry out additional management duties. Then there are the self serving opportunistic, manipulating, lying, low calibre, nasty sycophants who pursue these positions of authority because they know this how they can protect themselves and their job from threatening influences (which is usually just honest, decent and nice people). These types are usually very skilled in ingratiating themselves to those up the management tree and kicking anyone below. Unfortunately many pilots enter the industry via GA where intimidation and victimisation is not an uncommon management practice. Many pilots go to work under a regime of fear and favour. This culture is cyclic and often fosters the type of character you gave in your example. This is primarily why aviation HR management strive to destroy pilot seniority systems, they often advocate "best person for the job.... etc" however, the real reason they despise seniority systems is because they know it provides pilots with the greatest protection from unethical manipulative managers whose ultimate aim is to be able to freely victimise intimidate, victimise and harass any pilot who challenges them at any level. (Eyes to the floor and only look up when I give the order). The general public probably have this perception of this "Commander and Chief Captain" the reality is, you have management on one side and the regulator on the other, the "Captain" is just the "SCAPEGOAT" in the middle and he/she don't get to enjoy generous pension schemes or bonus packages.

[FightDeck]

From what I’ve been told it was the lowest voter return on record.Something like only 800 votes received out of 2200 plus pilots.Only 35-40% is dismal. most pilots think AIPA is largely irrelevant now. Anything the company wants in terms of cuts to pay and conditions they seem to get what they want exactly anyway so what value does AIPA really deliver? Most Qantas pilots would do anything for a shiny new toy so it’s easiest workforce in the company to reduce terms and conditions.

[Keg]

You’ve been told incorrect. Virtually identical voter turn out to 2019. Both 2019 and 2021 considerably better than 2018 and marginally better than the casual vacancy election held early in 2021.

Can review all the election information via the ROC website. (https://www.roc.gov.au/find-a-registered-organisation/aipa/australian-and-international-pilots-association)

[Mr Proach]

Wow FD that is disappointing, the pilots are the union, "AIPA and AFAP" are just names. Pilots often think of these organisations as third party entities. An organisation can only be as strong as it's membership. If the members do nothing they will have no influence over anything including pay and conditions. It is a very very simple fact but seemingly very very difficult for people to understand. (I suppose there may be a lot of apathy out there in the present times which doesn't help.)

[knobbycobby]

AIPA will be used as a company shop front used to rubber stamp and sell whatever Qantas wish to achieve.It all changed once a previous president used the position as a personal springboard to become the head of IR for Qantas.That position and individual is now tasked to completely undermine the pay and conditions of the profession.He’s also close to many in AIPA so expect the rinse and repeat of a reduction in pay and conditions to secure aircraft replacements .It’s been a very easy process for Qantas in the last few agreements.I suspect there will finally be a global shortage of pilots given significant retirements globally but AIPA is incapable of achieving anything but a complete capitulation in what Qantas will have already planned.

[The_Equaliser]

Previous AIPA executives have moved into CP and DCP roles yet the the movement of NS to a middle ranking IR role is of concern! You have no idea and are a muppet who is probably part of the G20 group so thoroughly repudiated.

[Mr Proach]

TE, Ye old "The working class can kiss my @ss ... I got the foreman's job at last!" If the AIPA membership can't muster legitimate leadership, the AFAP has representative rights.

[Keg]

It seems clear now what Mr Proach’s angle has been all along.

AIPA on it’s worst day is still streets ahead of AFAP.

[Mr Proach]

Keg I believe you are inferring that I have an agenda to convert AIPA members to the AFAP. I didn't make any comments regarding AIPA representatives taking on company management positions. I don't consider it the proper thing to do however, it is not a unique circumstance and that is why that adage came to be. There are workplaces where employees are represented by more than one organisation and manage to effectively negotiate with company management. I believe this is possible providing each organisation has a strong membership base. My primary comment was to highlight that a proportion of members treat their representative organisations like service providers, they often don't contribute in any way other than pay some subscriptions and then blame the "organisation" for poor outcomes (like an ATM machine that short changes a cash withdrawal).

[Mr Proach]

BTW Keg clever word play on the use of "angle"

[mohikan]

Previous AIPA executives have moved into CP and DCP roles yet the the movement of NS to a middle ranking IR role is of concern! You have no idea and are a muppet who is probably part of the G20 group so thoroughly repudiated.
Actually, NS is now the head of IR for the whole airline, having replaced the nice lady from Freehills.

So not a middle manager at all, in fact a senior manager.

[Street garbage]

I'm on the 737. There was an overwhelming sense from those I fly with, was that the AIPA President was clearly more focused on having the A380 stood up than the issues facing both the A330/ B787 (especially long term isolation, you only have to look at the current arguments about the DRW/ PDG and CNS/HKG flying to see how out of touch they are) and the allocation of Stand Up's on the B737 (some Junior F/o's I fly with have had 4 BP's more stood down than the senior F/o's in one of the bases).
From looking at the AEC results (yes, I did vote), it is time for a generational change in AIPA, hopefully someone like JL can become President, he seems to have a good working relationship with QF management, whilst having the ability to say no to them.

[Beer Baron]

Most pilots think AIPA is largely irrelevant now. Anything the company wants in terms of cuts to pay and conditions they seem to get what they want exactly anyway so what value does AIPA really deliver? Most Qantas pilots would do anything for a shiny new toy so it’s easiest workforce in the company to reduce terms and conditions.
What utter garbage. Easiest workforce to reduce terms eh?
Well let’s see.
Baggage handlers - Gone. All sacked.
Fleet Presentation (cleaners) - Sacked.
Engineers - Jobs sent off-shore a decade ago.
Flight attendants - New pay rates for Domestic and International F/A’s who work 50% more for half the pay. Started 15 years ago and now the majority of the work force.
Mainline pilots - not a single forced redundancy and still the highest paid pilots in the country.

So yeah, really looks like AIPA are doing a sh1t job. But it’s probably easy, everyone knows Qantas are always keen to look out for their employees. :rolleyes:

[Keg]

My primary comment was to highlight that a proportion of members treat their representative organisations like service providers, they often don't contribute in any way other than pay some subscriptions and then blame the "organisation" for poor outcomes (like an ATM machine that short changes a cash withdrawal).

On this we agree. Perhaps I was a bit harsh in my attribution of your motives however my previous final paragraph holds.

I also agree with Beer Baron on this. AIPA (in all it’s guises over the years) has managed to retain terms and conditions that are still very good. Sure, there was a cohort that felt the A350 conditions should have been more closely aligned with the A380 but that fact that they ended up marginally better than the 787 is still a good outcome.

[Mr Proach]

BB, that summary of what has occurred across QF's workforce is very disturbing, it demonstrates QF's commitment to it's workforce (lets not forget the shareholders). This country is rapidly moving away from the egalitarian society it once was. Union membership is at all times low and you don't have to be Einstein to work out that low union membership directly correlates to no protection at work, diminished wages and working conditions. I think there is a strange irony in that many people want to migrate to this perceived land of milk and honey to escape oppressive regimes however, they are least likely to fight for wages and conditions because they've been conditioned by what they were subjected to in their country of origin. I don't think "workers" realise the how quickly their rights and conditions can be eroded. Australia and its allies frequently criticise China however, it's peoples' standard of living seems to be improving. I also notice that China takes action to limit the influence of large corporations. This is unlike of what occurs in the land of Oz where the huge multinationals diminish wages and working conditions, exploit our people and resources but pay very little if not zero tax (that money we contribute for the betterment of our society). What do our government ministers do? .... They express concern .... whoopty do!

[43Inches]

This is unlike of what occurs in the land of Oz where the huge multinationals diminish wages and working conditions, exploit our people and resources but pay very little if not zero tax (that money we contribute for the betterment of our society). What do our government ministers do? .... They express concern .... whoopty do!

Australia was federated on the calls of large business to be able to sell goods across states without border taxes and duties, far from some ideology of the masses. This country has always been ruled by large business dynasties and monopolies, some of them were in the guise of government run. The mess with states in control of a lot of decisions is a result of this, and business finance and help promote our political parties (or at least one of them).

[Paragraph377]

BB, that summary of what has occurred across QF's workforce is very disturbing, it demonstrates QF's commitment to it's workforce (lets not forget the shareholders). This country is rapidly moving away from the egalitarian society it once was. Union membership is at all times low and you don't have to be Einstein to work out that low union membership directly correlates to no protection at work, diminished wages and working conditions. I think there is a strange irony in that many people want to migrate to this perceived land of milk and honey to escape oppressive regimes however, they are least likely to fight for wages and conditions because they've been conditioned by what they were subjected to in their country of origin. I don't think "workers" realise the how quickly their rights and conditions can be eroded. Australia and its allies frequently criticise China however, it's peoples' standard of living seems to be improving. I also notice that China takes action to limit the influence of large corporations. This is unlike of what occurs in the land of Oz where the huge multinationals diminish wages and working conditions, exploit our people and resources but pay very little if not zero tax (that money we contribute for the betterment of our society). What do our government ministers do? .... They express concern .... whoopty do!
Mergers and acquisitions are at a record high. COVID has been good for big businesses as it’s given them the ability to grow their businesses, destroy smaller opposition and competitors, screw their workers and dance around naked in all that extra money the Federal government gave them for job keeper. The greed, corruption and protection that big corporations receive is disgusting. The taxpayers are wearing this as Scomo and Fraudenberg lump us with $1trillion in debt. Democracy? Barely.

[Mr Proach]

Mergers and acquisitions are at a record high. COVID has been good for big businesses as it’s given them the ability to grow their businesses, destroy smaller opposition and competitors, screw their workers and dance around naked in all that extra money the Federal government gave them for job keeper. The greed, corruption and protection that big corporations receive is disgusting. The taxpayers are wearing this as Scomo and Fraudenberg lump us with $1trillion in debt. Democracy? Barely.
Spot on! The workers funding their executioners.

[Mr Proach]

I wouldn't be surprised if the management side of the industry will seek to capitalise on the affects of COVID on the aviation jobs market (the usual reduction in pay & conditions), whereas what should be happening is an increase in salaries to compensate for the vulnerability of piloting jobs to global heath events. (COVID has clearly demonstrated that). If not a salary increase then some kind of a (disaster) fund to support aviation workers during such events.

[FightDeck]

Whatever Qantas has wanted to achieve in the last few EA’s it has done so conclusively.AIPA hasn’t changed the outcome of any agreement other than to recommend voting for exactly what the company proposed. Other than with the admission that there isn’t much they can do about it.Aside from representing pilot welfare I’m not sure AIPA is really capable of achieving much contractually, other than a few very minor tweaks to whatever Qantas decide is going to happen.

[ddrwk]

AIPA hasn’t changed the outcome of any agreement other than to recommend voting for exactly what the company proposed.

How do you know that?

[Icarus2001]

Mergers and acquisitions are at a record high. Do you have a link to any evidence on your assertion?

[Paragraph377]

Do you have a link to any evidence on your assertion?

Article behind a paywall. Up to you if you want to pay for it;

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/global-mergers-and-acquisitions-hit-record-high-at-5-8trn-for-the-year-l378d95wh

And; (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/global-mergers-and-acquisitions-hit-record-high-at-5-8trn-for-the-year-l378d95wh)

https://www.ft.com/content/6dfdd78a-e229-4524-a400-144396524eb6

There’s more info out there in cyber land, I’m not doing the work for you.

[Dysphoria]

Actually, NS is now the head of IR for the whole airline, having replaced the nice lady from Freehills.

So not a middle manager at all, in fact a senior manager.

The term "Head of" in QF is not a senior management position. For example there is a Head of Base Operations and Head of Flying Operations, both report to the Chief Pilot (who's is 3 levels from the top).
There are at least 4 "Heads of" in IR. The "nice lady from Freehills" is the Executive Manager Industrial Relations which is the most senior IR role, she is still at QF.

[Beer Baron]

Whatever Qantas has wanted to achieve in the last few EA’s it has done so conclusively.AIPA hasn’t changed the outcome of any agreement other than to recommend voting for exactly what the company proposed.
Again, this is just nonsense.

Does anyone really believe that Qantas’s wish list for the last EA included;
- A330/A350 multi-fleet flying Captain earning $350 an hour. Same rate as the 747-400. 5% more than the A330.
- Overtime beyond 12 hours (even at 50%) for a fleet that will fly out to 20 hour duty periods.
- Additional credits beyond 16.5 hours.
- 3% pay rises and back pay during every year of the pandemic (so far)

If Qantas got their own way the pay rate would be half and there would be no O/T or any other credit beyond flight hours.

Yes, I hoped for a better deal than we accepted in the end, and the company’s negotiating tactics were an utter disgrace but to suggest that AIPA did not improve the deal and fight off Qantas’s worst impulses is laughable.

[FightDeck]

Attended AIPA roadshow and spoke at length with two of the Captains on the negotiating team once the final package was released. No top secret info. The pay rates were as Qantas wanted them including B scale for new hire SOs. I was told negotiators wanted the higher hourly rate from the 787 and 787 style conditions with lower planning divisor but were unsuccessful. They got the pay rates Qantas put forward with significantly less overtime. So to look at hourly rate alone in iso is misleading. The planning divisor is also a lot higher as is the maximum divisor.exceeds current LH fleets and the 787. You got to work a lot harder for the same money and need to work more hours.
pilots also can’t move between the A350 to the 787, nor can they move from the 787 to the A350 in same rank. Some little things here and there AIPA achieved around the edges but majority is exactly what Qantas put forward. I was told Qantas had a target for pay cuts of many millions per year and they got them. Wasn’t told a figure but it was a lot of cuts in pay. The negotiating CPT’s made it clear it wasn’t ever much of a negotiation. I know the pilots were threatened to be outsourced from pilots from Timbuktoo but AIPA did nothing to counter that in the media or to members. All Qantas now have to do is threaten to outsource the flying and they can achieve what they want anyway with or without AIPA. Should be clear this isn’t all AIPA’s fault. The reality is AIPA are industrially redundant now anyway.It’s take it or leave it.

[Mr Proach]

Attended AIPA roadshow and spoke at length with two of the Captains on the negotiating team once the final package was released. No top secret info. The pay rates were as Qantas wanted them including B scale for new hire SOs. I was told negotiators wanted the higher hourly rate from the 787 and 787 style conditions with lower planning divisor but were unsuccessful. They got the pay rates Qantas put forward with significantly less overtime. So to look at hourly rate alone in iso is misleading. The planning divisor is also a lot higher as is the maximum divisor.exceeds current LH fleets and the 787. You got to work a lot harder for the same money and need to work more hours.
pilots also can’t move between the A350 to the 787, nor can they move from the 787 to the A350 in same rank. Some little things here and there AIPA achieved around the edges but majority is exactly what Qantas put forward. I was told Qantas had a target for pay cuts of many millions per year and they got them. Wasn’t told a figure but it was a lot of cuts in pay. The negotiating CPT’s made it clear it wasn’t ever much of a negotiation. I know the pilots were threatened to be outsourced from pilots from Timbuktoo but AIPA did nothing to counter that in the media or to members. All Qantas now have to do is threaten to outsource the flying and they can achieve what they want anyway with or without AIPA. Should be clear this isn’t all AIPA’s fault. The reality is AIPA are industrially redundant now anyway.It’s take it or leave it.

If the whole framework of industrial relations was structured on a "take it or leave it" principle, children would still be working in coal mines and industrial relations wouldn't even exist. With all due respect, this sounds like propaganda or poppycock.

[ddrwk]

If the whole framework of industrial relations was structured on a "take it or leave it" principle, children would still be working in coal mines and industrial relations wouldn't even exist. With all due respect, this sounds like propaganda or poppycock.

Indeed.

If AIPA were so eager to accept the first proposal put to it, why do negotiations often take 18+ months?

[wombat watcher]

I think Mr Proach should change his name to Miss Guided or perhaps Miss Taken.
Either would be appropriate.

[The_Equaliser]

From looking at workday it appears NS has had a promotion. He initially post AIPA worked in Flight Operations for about 2 years in a fairly bland management role. Now reports into SM as a HR executive, SM reports into the General Counsel AF who sits on the GMC. Again the distance between activity and alleged benefit is not credible. Still sits just below or possibly at the CP level.

[Mr Proach]

I think Mr Proach should change his name to Miss Guided or perhaps Miss Taken.
Either would be appropriate.
Thank-you for sharing your thought however, I will just remain with this one