Minister Barnaby Joyce …” a new Strategic Aviation Advisory Forum …”

[Sandy Reith]

https://minister.infrastructure.gov.au/joyce/media-release/setting-australias-aviation-industry-course-recovery

General Aviation (GA) we are saved, this media release is the answer to our prayers of around thirty years, or not?

But there it is in black and white, a ‘framework’ to ‘revitalise’ aviation including General Aviation complete with, wait for it, a new advisory body. How many advisory bodies are there? Including inquiries? Lost count?
Forget all that, hail the latest saviour of GA.

Drum roll :- “The Strategic Aviation Advisory Forum”

Is this some kind of joke, someone had finger trouble it wasn’t supposed to be put out there until April 1st.?

My comment to the Minister’s statement:-

Can you believe it, another advisory body? How many is that?

What’s the point of counting, not one substantive reform policy change enacted from any of them and General Aviation (GA) is going down the drain at a faster rate than ever.

It’s hard to believe that a supposedly first world country, Australia, could destroy it’s aviation base so thoroughly, but check the facts via the Government’s own BITRE statistics and then plot them against our population growth. Now look to find any statistics about the loss of hundreds of flying schools, maintenance companies and charter operators this last thirty years. No, not possible, they don’t keep the truly awful facts of GA’s destruction in such a way that the public can be informed.

The Minister says he’ll spend part of our money by government picking winners in aviation technology. Winners? That will be great! Hopefully? … and bet the recipients of Minister Joyce's largesse will be represented by some clever chancers and hardly concealed con men. And he’ll spend money on airports, no doubt laudable but has to be mainly for airlines because for GA there’s little point for a dying industry.

I will say to Barnaby Joyce keep ‘your’ money, actually the taxpayer dollar, and get CASA and Home Affairs (the biennial $300 ASIC) off our backs. No news about the incredible taxing of GA by the hounding of the GA industry with costly and time wasting procedures and swingeing fees for numerous new and completely unnecessary permissions.

The Minister’s pronouncement shows that he still hasn’t grasped the fact he he has to make specific policies via a new Statement of Expectations to CASA in order to make some immediate reforms prior to disbanding CASA and creating a new Department of Civil Aviation under a responsible Minister.

And, no news about the alienation of irreplaceable airport lands or the eviction of aviation businesses, so much for spending on airports. No news about the unjust destruction of Glen Buckley’s umbrella flying school business.

This media release is no more believable than any of its predecessors, obviously written up by some of the CASA CEO’s former colleagues in Minister Joyce’s Department of Infrastructure, served up with the usual garnish of stale intentions.

Disappointing in the extreme, no backbone in this dusted off list of platitudes and ‘throw some money and more promises at them.’

Heard it all before, since 1989 when they wrote to me, “we are going to reduce costs and simplify the regulations…” Believe it? Sure, and I’d better clean my chimney so Santa doesn’t get his clothes dirty.

One tries to say politely, "please don't insult us with your money and promises." It's certainly becoming a strain to remain polite because patience after thirty years has run out.

So here we are again, more talk and election promises but no action and the life of mainstream GA is dribbling away, including the removal of many aircraft from the register which are being exported.

We really need to have the media spotlight on the woes of Australia’s aviation sector, especially GA. How do we achieve that?

[chimbu warrior]

One tries to say politely, "please don't insult us with your our money and promises." It's certainly becoming a strain to remain polite because patience after thirty years has run out.

Fixed that for you.

[EPIRB]

I remember one aviation minister, Peter Morris, who actually went and learnt to fly in order to get a greater understanding of aviation back in the eighties. Not sure if it did any good but at least he had a bit of an understanding.

[cattletruck]

This was also reported in today's The Age newspaper under the heading "Aviation cleared for lift-off after the pandemic". I stopped reading the article when I came across this sentence:

It includes a push for more use of drones and setting the right conditions for air taxis when they eventuate.

These people obviously live in la-la land.

[PoppaJo]

It’s too late. GA is long dead.

[Icarus2001]

It’s hard to believe that a supposedly first world country, Australia, could destroy

This is the supposed first world country that allows RPT in high capacity jet aircraft to aerodromes with ZERO ATC and allows 100 seat jet aircraft to operate with no fire and rescue service?
Try that in most “developing” countries.

[scrotometer]

GA died in Australia the day the FAC was born
been downhill ever since

[Climb150]

This is the supposed first world country that allows RPT in high capacity jet aircraft to aerodromes with ZERO ATC and allows 100 seat jet aircraft to operate with no fire and rescue service?
Try that in most “developing” countries.

Used to do it a couple of times a month in the USA.

[Icarus2001]

“IT” being what exactly? What percentage of flights?

[Paragraph377]

Ohhhh pulease, spare me. Another working group? Tomato Head really is off with the fairies. Too much sun or syphilis will do that to a person, I hope the Beetrooter is ok. But what a bunch of disconnected morons. The industry was killed off long before COVID became famous in the Wuhan wet markets. As a former angry ex CASA DAS once said, this is all ‘tautological nonsense’.

This latest pissweak attempt at repairing Australian aviation brought to us from the man who brought us the ‘pistol and boo saga’, ‘Vicki gate’ and many other insane ramblings;

https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/watch/1661870659802

[Clinton McKenzie]

The usual vacuous pre-election stunt.

Standby for the tweedle dumber party to announce its version. Or is it the tweedle dumb party’s turn? It's so difficult to tell them apart these days.

[Sandy Reith]

Quote Paragraph 337
“Ohhhh pulease, spare me. Another working group?”

Hard to believe isn’t it? But of course these are not working groups in the normal sense of work. That is unless unless you call sitting around and yapping, half sleeping or making ego power plays with various pet theory thought bubbles in order to make look busy for a do nothing Minister.

The whole exercise is a ‘put it off’ play because it’s judged that a little hope will quiet the howling mob sufficiently to get past the looming election. Of course there’s always a few that will believe that being called to ‘serve’ on such ‘working’ groups is a wonderful privilege, to be near the seductive power of the Minister, and have one’s name officially recorded.

Personally I would refuse an invitation to be a group member unless the Minister orders some immediate reforms and they were in place.

Otherwise there are no bona fides at all. If I were a present member I would resign, go to the media and show up the sham. It would be easy for BJ to issue an SOE with a few specific requirements. Independent instructors and self declared PPL medicals for example.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Quote Paragraph 337
“Ohhhh pulease, spare me. Another working group?”

Hard to believe isn’t it? But of course these are not working groups in the normal sense of work. That is unless unless you call sitting around and yapping, half sleeping or making ego power plays with various pet theory thought bubbles in order to make look busy for a do nothing Minister.

The whole exercise is a ‘put it off’ play because it’s judged that a little hope will quiet the howling mob sufficiently to get past the looming election. Of course there’s always a few that will believe that being called to ‘serve’ on such ‘working’ groups is a wonderful privilege, to be near the seductive power of the Minister, and have one’s name officially recorded.

Personally I would refuse an invitation to be a group member unless the Minister orders some immediate reforms and they were in place.

Otherwise there are no bona fides at all. If I were a present member I would resign, go to the media and show up the sham. It would be easy for BJ to issue an SOE with a few specific requirements. Independent instructors and self declared PPL medicals for example.

How many votes are in it?

[Sandy Reith]

Snoozer makes an essential point, Not many votes because there’s not much choice for the voter. Labor is not noted for its fondness for reducing an important part of its base, that being much of the Public Sector. Take the Territorial Government of Can’tberra for example which seems to regularly vote Labor. With apologies and respect to the thousands who vote for the good governance of our country and not simply to protect their employment.

The only way would be a strong media story that exposes the calamity and job destruction that is our sad GA state of affairs. This might bring Labor on board too and create a sufficient force for reform.

[Lead Balloon]

Try not to trap yourself in the false dichotomy. The essential point is: How many votes lost to independents are in it?

Remember: While ever a sufficient number of voters vote for either the Coalition or Labor, they both win and neither of them will do anything substantial about the aviation regulatory quagmire. While ever people threaten to change their vote to the 'other side', the major parties don't really care. Taking turns continues to work out well for both 'sides'.

They are both really scared of their inexorably reducing share of the overall vote. That's why, for example, Mr Joyce recently penned his article about the 'dangers' of voting for independents. Imagine the anarchy if members of Parliament voted on legislation on the basis of the interests of their electorate! It would be bordering on democracy.

[Paragraph377]

Try not to trap yourself in the false dichotomy. The essential point is: How many votes lost to independents are in it?

Remember: While ever a sufficient number of voters vote for either the Coalition or Labor, they both win and neither of them will do anything substantial about the aviation regulatory quagmire. While ever people threaten to change their vote to the 'other side', the major parties don't really care. Taking turns continues to work out well for both 'sides'.

They are both really scared of their inexorably reducing share of the overall vote. That's why, for example, Mr Joyce recently penned his article about the 'dangers' of voting for independents. Imagine the anarchy if members of Parliament voted on legislation on the basis of the interests of their electorate! It would be bordering on democracy.

As always, Lead Balloon nicely articulates the key point - vote for the independents. Sure, there is no iron clad guarantee that they will carry out the will of the voters should they be elected, but there is always a chance that they will. The mainstream political parties are filled with liars, crooks and shysters. They care only for their own wealth and self gain. Independents are often fairly normal people, your average ****kicker, like the other 99% of us. Not all of them, but some. And that makes them a real threat to the long term lazy elected trough swillers from the established parties. That’s why people like Tomato Head and Co write pithy meaningless articles about the ‘threat’ of Independents being elected. The only ‘threat’ is to current elected members bowls of rice.

The only thing that scares a politician more than an uprising of the people, is the arrival of an elected independent. With all of the COVID shenanigans alone over the past 2 years I reckon the next federal election will see a rise of the Independents. It’s up to us to vote with our feet.

[Sandy Reith]

Independents? Any threat to seats causes headaches to the established parties but to effect change you must have a government confident and strong enough to make changes. The idea that independents might make reform is, with respect, drawing a very long bow.

Next and in conjunction with Minister Joyce’s fairy story wish list is this from CASA CEO P. Spence.

Remove oneself from the real world and, at minimum, be amused.

https://updates.communication.casa.gov.au/link/id/zzzz61bfdce1494f1708Pzzzz5f2e767d32986112/page.html

Apart from meaning well, and many good reforms intentioned, as usual, Ms. Spence’s ‘tea and sympathy’ offering has to be the most extraordinarily hedged piece of bureaucratised Can’tberra speak I’ve ever had to read.

This part says it all:-

“I also want to assure you that these reforms signal the start of continuing efforts by CASA ..”

So the continuing efforts have been started? What was that date please?

It’s all so ridiculous and would be April Fool’s laughable if this wasn’t coming from a senior government official receiving in excess of $600,000 per annum.

This is all a real shame, that Ms. Spence is lacking control of her remit was starkly shown during the Senate RRAT hearings when her underlings threw her under the bus as she floundered around under the withering fire from Angel Flight’s Marjorie Pagani. I’ve never seen the like before, it’s all there on UTube. Look at that and wonder if she has been wounded beyond saving. She obviously had not been briefed, or taken the trouble herself, to understand the excruciating details of CASA’s punishment of AF.

Similarly she’s not had the will to look into the Glen Buckley disaster of CASA’s making, instead hand balled this hot potato back to the Ombudsman, again.

So where are we? Alan Jones or the like might help because political will power has to be motivated somehow.

[Lead Balloon]

Sandy

You appear to have forgotten the recent decades of aviation safety regulatory history and government inaction, Einstein's definition of insanity, or both. The major parties don't care about intervening in aviation safety regulation, because it's not an issue that differentiates them from the perspective of most (at the moment) voters. The major parties are comfortable with abdicating responsibility to CASA.

You've accurately identified the purpose of Mr Joyce's announcement. Do the circumstances give you any confidence that the Coalition is committed to genuine change in aviation safety regulation? If not, it would seem to follow you expect Labor to do a better job on that front because you have no confidence in independents effecting reform. Do you reckon Labor would do a better job? Really?

To refresh your memory, Einstein's definition of insanity is: "Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." Voting for the major parties over and over again and expecting different results on aviation safety regulation would seem to be quite insane, if Einstein's to be believed.

[Sandy Reith]

Lead Balloon, I think my memory about what’s happened is as good as anyone who has been in GA and around politics as long as I have. As I’ve said in this thread already I see little hope of the Labor party causing any reforms of note. Perhaps you missed that.
Your hope of independents causing reforms for GA isn’t supported by precedents of which I’m aware.

In reality what independents could possibly be interested sufficiently and then have enough clout to force changes? Truth is we already have in Parliament some that might have made noises but have not.
For example Pauline Hansen who has flying experience but chooses not to make GA a big issue.

I have written to the Liberal Democrats and the United Australia party asking for their policies about aviation. Neither have bothered to answer.

I certainly don’t know what is the definitive answer or what might cause Parliament to change course but in my opinion I cannot see independents making the difference.

What will, and I think has made an impression, is our united and constant barrage, at least to a much greater extent than in the past.

[Lead Balloon]

The 'constant barrage' is like pelting them with marshmallows. The major parties and an indolently attuned bureaucracy don't care.

A study of history shows what happens to countries in the kind of state in which Australia has been allowed to deteriorate.

[Duck Pilot]

So who is a better alternative to Barnaby to lead this forum?

We must be cognitive of the fact that Barnaby may not be an aviation subject matter expert, however it’s crucial that his aviation adviser/s are providing Barnaby with the correct advice, opposed to the incorrect advice….

[Sandy Reith]

So who is a better alternative to Barnaby to lead this forum?

We must be cognitive of the fact that Barnaby may not be an aviation subject matter expert, however it’s crucial that his aviation adviser/s are providing Barnaby with the correct advice, opposed to the incorrect advice….
It’s believed that Barnaby is aware and is receiving good advice. In the past he has taken solid action to control his bureaucracy. CASA being an independent corporation is one hefty problem which will only be solved properly, and for the long term, by being disbanded and all functions returned to where they should be in a Department with a responsible Minister. This is the Westminster system and is the only solution that has the crucial democratic element of accountability and sensitivity back to us the voting public.
He could use the Statement of Expectations mechanism as an interim way of starting the reforms before changing the Act to fix the inherent problem once and for all.
Now the problem will be timing, apart from his willingness, if any, due to a looming election.
We still can hope but it’s pretty thin. Ring write contact your MPs including state Senators.

[Duck Pilot]

Reality is that things will not change until the people in positions of influence are given the correct advice with regards to the challenges and demands that CASA are enforcing on industry.

[Torukmacto]

Take the word safety out of the name .

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

C A $ A .......................................

There.....Fixed it for ya.

[Sandy Reith]

C A $ A .......................................

There.....Fixed it for ya.
Did it happen this way?
In the late 80s, Brit PM Margaret Thatcher popularised ‘privatisation,’ making free enterprise the driver to unblock Britain’s sclerotic economy.
Some clever mandarins persuade our government to create a corporate body to run aviation.
Advantages to government, ‘user pays’ and take the running expense off the regular budget. Responsibility removed from Minister and government.
Advantage to mandarins, pay scales unhooked from the regular PS rates, now we’ll call those rates ‘commercial’ even though they are state run monopolies, illegal in the real world of private enterprise. There’s the money driver.
Disadvantages, as an entity that can be sued, so it protects itself (unlike a Department). Pay increases mean that it will invent ever increasing permissions to which are attached swingeing fees to be paid by the aviation industry. A dispersed GA of many parts (contrast huge concentrated clout of airlines) is the whipping boy.
But by far the worst outcome for our Nation is the destruction of our GA aviation base by the super expensive and time wasting regulatory overkill
of CASA.
The budget bottom line would actually be $billions better off with a healthy GA industry and a crucial element of National security would be greatly enhanced if GA could be revitalised.
Lastly, ‘user pays’ was always a con job, the user in truth is the Nation as a whole. The Nation has a workable surface transport regulatory environment and network to the advantage of all. Aviation rules should be similarly workable and in keeping with free enterprise.

[Paragraph377]

Pip Spence rattled off the usual bureaucratic merry Xmas manure that many a DAS before her has done. Cheap, hollow rhetoric filled with wank words and empty meaning. Yes Pip, we know, a challenging year behind us with a positive year ahead of us for aviation. Blah blah blah puke. Long luncheon meetings with Barnaby, pre-election motherhood statements and a smattering of intellectual lingo. It all amounts to one thing - bull****. You speaketh BS Ms Spence. And may I add that pithy Xmas statements such as the one you penned are better directed to schoolchildren. The aviation community is made up of some very business savvy, skilled and articulate individuals, some very intelligent people who can effortlessly see clearly through the crap you have put to paper. Save it for some other group. Piss off and go and enjoy your Xmas break. Bye bye

[Sandy Reith]

Quote Paragraph377 , 24th Dec 2021 10:22
“Pip Spence rattled off the usual bureaucratic merry Xmas manure that many a DAS before her has done.”

Ms. Spence’s soapy missive goes to the extent of disconnection between our Canberra aviation regulator and the aviation community. It truly is a whopping gaping chasm brought about by having zero political input, no Ministerial input, for some thirty years.

It is staggering that she could pen such waffle, out of the public purse, salary $600,000 plus, in the belief that it would taken seriously, let alone respectfully, in the normal manner of a regular communication.

It is increasingly difficult to express opinions with civility when CASA refuses to take responsibility for smashing individuals like Glen Buckley or ripping into Angel Flight for no good reason, as well as any thought to the magnitude of the overall GA debacle.

Same for the Minister who has the power to make change, ultimately the Parliament is responsible and that’s the only hope for reform.

Without reform the disconnect and aggressive dislike will increase, Canberra and the Public Sector in unfair competition with the private sector. Two Australias.