Aircraft down off Redcliffe

[trashie]

Aircraft in water near Newport QLD looks like it crashed after take off from Redcliffe. Reported that four were on board. Does not look good.

[Just a Grunt]

Non-paywall link to courier-mail:

https://12ft.io/proxy?ref=&q=https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/light-plane-crashes-near-redcliffe/news-story/30210efc876ffa804616e1964204c231

[KyleJR]

Certainly doesn’t sound good.

ABC running an article too.
can’t post the link though.

[Slatye]

It's unclear whether there's any evidence that there were four people onboard, or whether it's just "it has four seats and therefore there could have been four people onboard". Hopefully the latter.

I am no expert on aircraft types, but that wing shape makes me think Comanche?

[Andy_G]

Must have been extremely short on time during the emergency, landing gear still extended for a ditching was more than likely not thier intentions.

[PoppaJo]

Looks like a Rockwell Commander.

Single engine.

[PA39]

i wd agree with the cantilever undercarriage I wd go for a 112 ir 114

[Mick.B]

Looks a lot like WMM.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Will not have to wait for the divers, another 3 hours it will be sitting on mudflat

[PoppaJo]

Looks a lot like WMM.

Nine News footage just confirmed that. Seems to be elevated above water slowly as the arvo progresses.

[marty1468]

7 NEWS is reporting four confirmed deceased. 2 from Brisbane and 2 from Canberra. Witnesses stated the aircraft appeared to be having engine trouble and they looked like they attempted to turn around and make it back to the runway.

[mickjoebill]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-12-19/plane-crashes-into-ocean-near-brisbane/100712252?utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web

[Lead Balloon]

Can’t find WMM on the register. (head scratch)

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x1624/3a1d151b_ccc9_46eb_9334_eb352398ad47_20894a7a1bac7e4a116396e 0de7f6980be5513ea.png
…and then I searched for the rego of the aircraft I fly, and it does not show either. Must be my fat thumbs or CASA’s ‘upgraded’ website.

[Greeb]

Leave the VH- off and it will work.

[Lead Balloon]

Would you believe the ‘VH-‘ is pre-populated?

I should have realised…

(PS: thanks greeb)

[PA39]

I have around 1800hrs in the 114 and can say with the gear out they glide like a brick. Sad sad situation, the return to land after EFATO has trapped many an aviator.

[Hydromet]

ABC reporting 59 yo male pilot, another male and two children all deceased.

[lucille]

Looking at the images, the aircraft is inverted in the water, either floating or it’s in really shallow water. Makes you wonder why it flipped.

Sad outcome.

[runway16]

It was a retract. It look like a gear-down landing in shallow water. The engine appears torn off and the tail dislodged after it flipped.
Upside down would make it hard to exit. If a retract and ditching it is best to land gear up and open the doors before touch down.

Bad news so close to Christmas.

[Alice Kiwican]

It was a retract. It look like a gear-down landing in shallow water. The engine appears torn off and the tail dislodged after it flipped.
Upside down would make it hard to exit. If a retract and ditching it is best to land gear up and open the doors before touch down.

Bad news so close to Christmas.

Maybe no time to retract? May have been fixated on returning to airfield and not ditching? Sadly we will probably never know.

Sad day for the families. RIP

[KyleJR]

Maybe no time to retract? May have been fixated on returning to airfield and not ditching? Sadly we will probably never know.

Sad day for the families. RIP

yes that was my thought too. Doesn’t seem to be anyone recording Redcliffe CTAF on liveatc, wonder if he had a chance to get a call out.

[Rotor Work]

ABC reporting 59 yo male pilot, another male and two children all deceased.


From ABC

The pilot was a 69-year-old man, with police saying they believe it was a booked joy flight

RIP

Thoughts go out to rescue crews, family, friends and all at Redcliffe Airport.

[cooperplace]

Spare a thought for the Qld water police and divers. Very tough job at the best of times, there were two kids in the plane.

[ShyTorque]

This is appalling. It looks like the front of the aircraft is extensively damaged, so possibly not a controlled ditching.

[mcoates]

This plane has been around

formally registered as.... ZK-ELL, N96ET, N747WW, OO-TTC, C-GIHV, N4899W


https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/270937

[PA39]

Stall spin after EFATO due to engine component failure or fuel exhaustion would be my initial thoughts.

[KyleJR]

Moreton Alert on FB have some recovery photos up now. :(

[spleener]

Firstly, this is a tragedy for the families and friends, traumatic for the rescue personnel and may the deceased RIP.

Perhaps there are some lessons to be learned which may come to light after a proper investigation. In the meantime, knowlege of the runway in use could provide a time factor and possible thought process. The wind on 19th appears to favour 07. The crash site appears to be adjacent to the wetlands area, approximately 1nm NW of the airport. The direction of flight prior to impact can't be definitively determined from the inverted resting site, but may have been from a westerly heading. The gear is down. The flaps appear to be retracted. This would appear a less than ideal configuration for a planned ditching or energy management.

Stall/spin? I'd doubt the later due to the apparent damage from energy disipation. A proper investigation will be more telling.

Radio call? Bottom of the priority list, but if given may relay intent/ highlight priority management.

A sad situation. Let's wait for the formal report.

[Squawk7700]

I like that, you’ve told us what it isn’t based on your opinion but yet you’re telling us to wait for the report??

[Alt Flieger]

Did many single engine overwater joy flights a million years ago when I first got my license. Never liked it.

[growahead]

Don’t think the water had much to do with this one, the result wouldn’t have been much different if it happened over farmland or suburbia. Let’s just wait and see.

[Pearly White]

I have around 1800hrs in the 114 and can say with the gear out they glide like a brick. Sad sad situation, the return to land after EFATO has trapped many an aviator.
I have no time on type. Is retract gear on EFATO checklist?

[The Banjo]

What powers the landing gear? Engine driven hydraulics? Electric? Electron driven hyd pump?

[Duck Pilot]

Electrically powered hydraulic power pack, similar to most of the other single engine retractables. I’m pretty sure the system would struggle to retract the gear if the alternator wasn’t pumping out it’s normal output.

It’s gut wrenching to hear about these EFATO incidents when things go terribly wrong very quickly. Having lost a very good mate and mentor in his beloved V35 Bonanza which I also flew about 30 years ago, it certainly drives the message home to me before I take off in anything - have an emergency plan and self brief it or as a crew before every take off - NO EXEMPTIONS. At least then you have half a chance of a good outcome, even if the aircraft is destroyed.

Good initial and re-currency training saves lives in my humble opinion.

[Pearly White]

Electrically powered hydraulic power pack, similar to most of the other single engine retractables. I’m pretty sure the system would struggle to retract the gear if the alternator wasn’t pumping out it’s normal output.

It’s gut wrenching to hear about these EFATO incidents when things go terribly wrong very quickly. Having lost a very good mate and mentor in his beloved V35 Bonanza which I also flew about 30 years ago, it certainly drives the message home to me before I take off in anything - have an emergency plan and self brief it or as a crew before every take off - NO EXEMPTIONS. At least then you have half a chance of a good outcome, even if the aircraft is destroyed.

Good initial and re-currency training saves lives in my humble opinion.
That's what I expected - that the electrics might struggle to retract, and on some types the retract process temporarily increases drag due to doors opening, esp. on bigger aircraft e.g. B747.
If this was an EFATO it may have just been a lot of bad luck. Low, comparatively heavy with four up, no options except to land straight ahead. You get one chance to execute it as best you can while your heart climbs up into your throat. My grandfather died in not dissimilar conditions. I feel for all concerned.

[43Inches]

There seems to be a lot of focus on that it was an EFATO, the news reports don't say much other than it went down behind the mangroves out of sight and then was later found by another aircraft in the circuit. Could have been numerous things, incapacitation, EFATO, other control failure, who knows. Unless the airframe failed, which does not look likely, then aircraft age and (old) history have almost nothing to do with it. Looks like the rear underside of the fuselage took quite a beating in the sequence so it may not have initially hit inverted. In any case ATSB will figure it out at some point.

[PA39]

I have no time on type. Is retract gear on EFATO checklist?
The 114 has a very lazy hydraulic pump that only allows basically 1 main gear retraction at a time.
i always taught my students to obtain a positive rate of climb and pull the gear in. As I said the 114 glides like a brick with the gear out. A great load carrier but with a ZFW, two cabin doors but aerodynamically a bit of a sled 145kts downhill out of an IO540.

[mickjoebill]

..... Low, comparatively heavy with four up, no options except to land straight ahead.....

In respect to payload, two passengers described as younger than teen. :(

Mjb

[Squawk7700]

In respect to payload, two passengers described as younger than teen. :(

Mjb

At least add another 80-100 kg.

[Cessna Boy]

Did many single engine overwater joy flights a million years ago when I first got my license. Never liked it.
Circuit direction at Redcliffe is always over the water, 07 left hand 25 right hand, so not an intentional trip over the water, it just how it is there. 07 departures you will normally be over the water by the time you reach 500ft.

[TimmyTee]

I’ll take water over heavily built up suburbia like most former GAAP airports - “aim for that one footy oval” isn’t ideal

[Desert Flower]

At least add another 80-100 kg.

Girl & boy aged 10 & 9. The boy looks to be quite on the light side. Mum (looks like she was separated from dad) was waiting at home for them to come home.

DF.

[cowl flaps]

Stall spin after EFATO due to engine component failure or fuel exhaustion would be my initial thoughts.

Going by the damage to the front of the aircraft, and the compression damage to the rear of the fuselage, it seems the tail feathers were trying to catch up to the prop spinner.

Not what you'd expect from a controlled ditching. Tragic at any time of year,- but less than a week out from Xmas, just devastating.

[aroa]

Uncontrolled water arrival. As per PA 39.
Very sad.
RIP

[Peter Fanelli]

i wd agree with the cantilever undercarriage I wd go for a 112 ir 114

Trailing beam, not cantilever.
A cantilever is fixed only at one end with the keyword being "fixed" not pivoting.

[grunaubaby]

probably does in that there might be a desire to attempt a forced landing on dry land

[grunaubaby]

lots of theories so far but your comment 'land ahead' (or close to straight ahead) is so valid and usually gives the best outcome. It was always drummed into me. EFATO - then land ahead if possible.
But who knows, it may have been a partial engine failure initially with a chance of returning to airfield.

[PA39]

I am still guessing fuel exhaustion.

[Desert Flower]

I am still guessing fuel exhaustion.

Right after takeoff???!!!

DF.

[Checklist Charlie]

I wonder if PA39 means fuel starvation?

CC

[Desert Flower]

I wonder if PA39 means fuel starvation?

CC
I would go with that theory - but not fuel exhaustion.

DF.

[PA39]

No fellas I mean fuel exhaustion……ran out of fuel. 114 have a common left both right or off selector. The 114 is known to cross drain and sometimes pilots switch tanks as one wing is considerably lower after the cross drain making the ground roll awkward. Jimmy Hazelton and I shared similar experiences when we were working on configurations to make the “unuseable” fuel useable. When the nose points to the heavens and a turn is commenced, the fuel port can be uncovered on a “skinny” tank. Anyway enough said, lets wait see

[Checklist Charlie]

Just for clarity
No fuel in tanks except "unusable" equals exhaustion.
Fuel in excess of "unusable" but the flow to the engine is interrupted equals starvation.

CC

[PA39]

Just for clarity
No fuel in tanks except "unusable" equals exhaustion.
Fuel in excess of "unusable" but the flow to the engine is interrupted equals starvation.

CC
correct ✔️ As Jimmy H would say…..there is no such thing as unuseable. 🤓

[Kooka]

No fellas I mean fuel exhaustion……ran out of fuel. 114 have a common left both right or off selector. The 114 is known to cross drain and sometimes pilots switch tanks as one wing is considerably lower after the cross drain making the ground roll awkward. Jimmy Hazelton and I shared similar experiences when we were working on configurations to make the “unuseable” fuel useable. When the nose points to the heavens and a turn is commenced, the fuel port can be uncovered on a “skinny” tank. Anyway enough said, lets wait see
As it happens Jim Hazelton and I ferried this particular 114 from NZ some years ago.

[local]

As it happens Jim Hazelton and I ferried this particular 114 from NZ some years ago.
Do you recall what the Kiwi registration was?

[Desert Flower]

Do you recall what the Kiwi registration was?

As someone posted earlier, this plane has been around: Formerly registered as.... ZK-ELL, N96ET, N747WW, OO-TTC, C-GIHV, N4899W

DF.

[PA39]

As it happens Jim Hazelton and I ferried this particular 114 from NZ some years ago.
Ahh I remember that aircraft. Think Dennis Thompson organised the sale/ferry.
miss JH terribly, in fact when Jimmy passed I left aviation forever. 😔

[KRviator]

Preliminary Report (https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/5780781/ao-2021-053-preliminary-1.pdf) is out.

What strikes me from it is they ditched with gear extended, and predictably flipped in shallow water, but first responders couldn't get into the aircraft. Makes a reasonable point to pop the cabin doors before you put her down off airport, though in this case there probably wasn't enough time to brief the RHS passenger to do so.

[mates rates]

The time factor was obviously critical here.Jamming a shoe in the door is a good idea if you have the time.

[Squawk7700]

Such a shame they couldn't get the door open. A non-aviation person would struggle and I guess if it wasn't fully filled with water inside, they would struggle to pull it open. Surprised the coastguard couldn't get it open either as they would have a mask of sorts on board you'd have to hope. A terrible way to go.

[AnotherFSO]

Report is out:

https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/news-items/2024/incomplete-pre-take-checks-contributed-fuel-starvation-fatal-accident

[Bull at a Gate]

Very sobering reading. Many things went wrong, but the final problem was the inability of the potential rescuers on the scene to open the doors. I am sure it would come as a surprise to them that they don’t open like car doors and that it was necessary to find the latch on the top (actually the bottom as it was inverted) of the door which was 2 metres underwater in the mud and then rotate it, as well as pulling the latch towards the bottom (top) of the door. Seems possible that the passengers didn’t know that either.

[nomess]

GA and Checklists again.

Personally, they are memory items, however the checklist sits on my knee and I ‘check it off’ as such at the end of each category. You would be surprised how easily distractions during pre start can impact the flow.

Startle clearly got the PIC here. However, I think this report is a must read for all, don’t underestimate passenger briefings, things like opening a door and removing a seatbelt, emergency exit path, in a passenger briefing. It can save one’s life.

[junior.VH-LFA]

That is a horrific read.

[Runaway Gun]

Confusing the Prop with the Mixture control, on the ground?