Project Winton- Airbus

[Keg]

Looks like QF is going the Airbus route (https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-selects-airbus-as-preferred-aircraft-for-domestic-fleet-renewal/) for domestic fleet replacement. Interesting times.



Airbus A320neo and Airbus A220 families selected as preferred aircraft types.
In-principle agreement for up to 134 orders and purchase right options over 10 plus years with deliveries from FY24 onwards.
Combines with existing Jetstar order to give the Qantas Group significant flexibility on timing and aircraft type/size.
Order is expected to be finalised by the end of FY22.

Qantas has selected the Airbus A320neo and Airbus A220 families as the preferred aircraft for the long-term renewal of its domestic narrow-body fleet.

A firm commitment for 40 aircraft – 20 A321XLR (extra long-range) and 20 A220 aircraft – is expected to be placed with Airbus by the end of FY22, following discussions with employees about arrangements to operate the new aircraft types and a final decision by the Qantas Board.

Qantas will also have a further 94 purchase right options[1] (https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-selects-airbus-as-preferred-aircraft-for-domestic-fleet-renewal/#_ftn1) on aircraft over a 10-plus year delivery window as its existing Boeing 737-800s and 717s are gradually phased out.

The order is in addition to Jetstar’s existing agreement with Airbus for over 100 aircraft in the A320neo family. Part of this new deal includes combining these two orders so that the Group can draw down on a total of 299 deliveries across both the A320 and A220 families as needed over the next decade and beyond for Qantas, QantasLink and Jetstar.

Once finalised, this will represent the largest aircraft order in Australian aviation history.

Financial details of the deal are commercial in confidence but represent a material discount from list prices.

Today’s announcement follows a detailed review by the airline’s engineering, flight operations, customer experience, network, fleet procurement and finance teams. The airline conducted detailed evaluation of the A320neo and B737 MAX families as well as the smaller A220 and Embraer E190/195-E2s.

SELECTED AIRCRAFT

The initial firm order concentrates on the larger, single-aisle A321XLR, and the mid-size A220-300 with purchase right options for the smaller A220-100, giving Qantas a fleet mix that can deliver better network choices and route economics.

The XLR can carry around 15 per cent more passengers on each flight than the airline’s existing B737-800s, making it well suited to busy routes between capital cities like Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane. Its longer range means it can also be used to open up new city pairs.

The small and medium size A220s provide the Group with flexibility to deploy these aircraft throughout most of its domestic and regional operations. They could be used during off peak times between major cities and on key regional routes to increase frequency.

Both aircraft types will be powered by Pratt & Whitney GTF™ engines and will deliver fuel savings of between 15-20 per cent, contributing to the airline’s broader emission reduction efforts.

CEO COMMENTARY

Qantas Group CEO Alan Joyce said the airline had called the renewal of its domestic fleet Project Winton after the town where the national carrier was born 101 years ago, because it’s a key strategic decision for the future of Qantas Domestic.

“This is a long-term renewal plan with deliveries and payments spread over the next decade and beyond, but the similarly long lead time for aircraft orders means we need to make these decisions now.

“Qantas is in a position to make these commitments because of the way we’ve navigated through the pandemic, which is a credit to the whole organization.

“This is a clear sign of our confidence in the future and we’ve locked in pricing just ahead of what’s likely to be a big uptick in demand for next-generation narrow-body aircraft. That’s good news for our customers, our people and our shareholders.

“We’ll be having discussions with our people to ensure we have the arrangements necessary to support such a large investment.

“Can I thank Airbus, Boeing, Embraer and the engine manufacturers for the efforts they put into this process. This was a very tough choice to make. Each option delivered on our core requirements around safety, capability and emissions reductions. But when you multiply even small benefits in areas like range or cost across this many aircraft and over the 20 years they’ll be in the fleet, Airbus was the right choice as preferred tenderer.

“The Airbus deal had the added advantage of providing ongoing flexibility within the order, meaning we can continue to choose between the entire A320neo and A220 families depending on our changing needs in the years ahead. The ability to combine the Jetstar and Qantas order for the A320 type was also a factor.

“The A320 will be new for Qantas Domestic, but we already know it’s a great aircraft because it’s been the backbone of Jetstar’s success for more than 15 years and more recently operating the resources industry in Western Australia.

“The A220 is such a versatile aircraft which has become popular with airline customers in the United States and Europe because it has the capability to fly regional routes as well as longer sectors between capital cities.

“The combination of small, medium and large jets and the different range and economics they each bring means we can have the right aircraft on the right route.

“For customers, that means having more departures throughout the day on a smaller aircraft, or extra capacity at peak times with a larger aircraft. Or the ability to start a new regional route because the economics of the aircraft make it possible.

“We have some exciting plans for the next-generation cabins we’ll put on these aircraft, which will offer improvements for passengers that we’ll share in coming months.

“Importantly, these aircraft will deliver a step change in reducing fuel burn and carbon emissions compared with our current fleet, which gets us closer to the net zero target we’ve set,” added Mr Joyce.

AIRCRAFT SPECIFICATIONS

Note: Aircraft information has been sourced from manufacturers’ websites. Specifications are indicative only and not reflective of the specifications of any potential aircraft order by Qantas.

[ThunderstormFactory]

That’s a lot of new type ratings.

[bazza stub]

That’s a lot of new type ratings.

I guess they are hoping pilots sell themselves short to win these new shiny jets, that way the type ratings will be effectively free.

[Going Nowhere]

“following discussions with employees about arrangements to operate the new aircraft types and a final decision by the Qantas Board.”

Expect the usual “this is the price you need to be at” type of discussions to take place among the various AOC’s

[Bula]

Different engine to Jetstar?

[wf747]

I guess they are hoping pilots sell themselves short to win these new shiny jets, that way the type ratings will be effectively free.

type ratings normally come as part of the package with the new aircraft

[Capt Fathom]

So they’ll end up with a new fleet of….. 12. :E

[ANCDU]

You’ve would have had to been pretty naive not to see this coming, it’s probably a smart move being able to move aircraft around between Domestic and Jetstar.

Does bring up the concern over crewing though, with a ready made entity already operating in Perth I think AIPA are about to earn their fees!

[Arthur D]

Let the games begin..

Whilst it seems inevitable that mainline will operate the A320 and NJS the A220, popcorn will be the perfect accompaniment to the IR theatre about to begin.

The old stalking horse of EFA will be joined by network as the ‘alternative operators……’

Wonder how the JQ gang will go with mainline operating the same aircraft on the same route for 30% more? Right pilot right customer?

Haircuts for all I’d say

[Mach1Muppet]

Interestingly the post has been removed from Instagram

[Max Tow]

Perhaps a sigh of relief in Canberra? Does that make up for the submarines and will Scotty & Micron kiss and make up at the signing in TLS?

[The Banjo]

The savings and efficiencies just on containerised baggage and freight will be huge.

[aussieflyboy]

Mainline Pilots:

“NJS and Network are going to get given even more of our flying 😡”

NJS Pilots:

“Mainline and Network are going to get given all our flying 😵”

Network Pilots:

“Let’s get as much of Mainline and NJSs flying as we can 😃”

Sunstate/Eastern Pilots:

“This is our chance to get a jet and take all of NJS and Networks flying 😃”

[morno]

You’ve would have had to been pretty naive not to see this coming, it’s probably a smart move being able to move aircraft around between Domestic and Jetstar.

Does bring up the concern over crewing though, with a ready made entity already operating in Perth I think AIPA are about to earn their fees!

Ohh here we go :rolleyes:

It’s a simple replacement for the 737’s, why the f**k would they try and farm the flying out :ugh:. **** there’s some paranoid ones amongst you.

Great news for Qantas. Hope the sane crews enjoy flying them, because I’ll certainly enjoy being down the back on them compared to the 737’s.

[Ollie Onion]

Company email stated that ‘discussions’ with work groups about the arrangements to be put in place to fly these aircraft will start in the new year. Also made the statement that no payments towards the new aircraft wouldn’t be made until the new agreements were finalised. Get ready for the pineapple!

[dr dre]

Company email stated that ‘discussions’ with work groups about the arrangements to be put in place to fly these aircraft will start in the new year. Also made the statement that no payments towards the new aircraft wouldn’t be made until the new agreements were finalised. Get ready for the pineapple!A321 to replace A330 on regional and domestic flying.

Negotiations with employee groups will be about it not being flown on the LH award.

That’s where the battle will be.

[PoppaJo]

Hands were sort of tied as the 110 odd A320/1 existing order couldn’t be reduced or changed, unless the company wanted to increase its order. Jetstar Japan, Singapore, now dead Vietnam, originally was going to source from this 2011 order. That changed a few years ago to now not. Gives them the flexibility to also change delivery dates now.

Not great for Boeing and whatever follows the MAX next decade.

Will be a large pay gap between the Star and Mainline on the bus though, especially as one of those groups works more.

[EPIRB]

A321 to replace A330 on regional and domestic flying.

Negotiations with employee groups will be about it not being flown on the LH award.

That’s where the battle will be.
Unfortunately the short haul award is only applicable to the Boeing 737 and the company apparently wouldn't change Boeing 737 to Narrow Body aircraft.

[Going Boeing]

I believe that this is the right decision for quite a number of reasons. The A320/321 cabin is so much more comfortable than the sardine can B737 Max cabin so this means that the Qantas Group will offer a superior product than Virgin, Rex & Bonza.

By combining the Mainline Domestic & Jetstar fleets gives the fleet size to achieve significant operational and maintenance savings. The A321XLR’s payload/range makes it very flexible for many routes such that they may be able to do the Jetstar Asian routes thus allowing the B787-8’s to be disposed of - a further reduction in costs.

Boeing kicked an own goal when they took Bombardier to court, it resulted in the “C” Series being given to Airbus to be marketed as the A220 and it perfectly complements the A320/321 range.

**** there’s some paranoid ones amongst you.

The paranoia comes from the 13 years experience of Joyce’s brutal management style - he’s never missed an opportunity to strip wages and conditions off his employees. The one positive is that he has finally ordered some new aircraft for Qantas Mainline (the B787-9’s were ordered by his predecessor).

[OnceBitten]

I believe that this is the right decision for quite a number of reasons. The A320/321 cabin is so much more comfortable than the sardine can B737 Max cabin so this means that the Qantas Group will offer a superior product than Virgin, Rex & Bonza.

By combining the Mainline Domestic & Jetstar fleets gives the fleet size to achieve significant operational and maintenance savings. The A321XLR’s payload/range makes it very flexible for many routes such that they may be able to do the Jetstar Asian routes thus allowing the B787-8’s to be disposed of - a further reduction in costs.

Boeing kicked an own goal when they took Bombardier to court, it resulted in the “C” Series being given to Airbus to be marketed as the A220 and it perfectly complements the A320/321 range.



The paranoia comes from the 13 years experience of Joyce’s brutal management style - he’s never missed an opportunity to strip wages and conditions off his employees. The one positive is that he has finally ordered some new aircraft for Qantas Mainline (the B787-9’s were ordered by his predecessor).

Except for one minor detail is that he still hasn't ordered them yet. Same as the 350's for project sunrise, they are the "preferred" option.

[dr dre]

Unfortunately the short haul award is only applicable to the Boeing 737 and the company apparently wouldn't change Boeing 737 to Narrow Body aircraft.

Not necessarily SH award. It may be conditions close to short haul though.

I envisage it’ll be similar to the LH negotiations over the 787 and then the 350.

They’ll want the 320/21 on conditions similar to the SH award but with efficiencies to suit longer sectors.

They preferably want to avoid an industrial dispute and just have pilots sign off on an agreement. But willing to have the option of outsourcing, just like the 787 and 350, in the background if discussions aren’t to their liking.

[logansi]

I'm actually interested in how the A220-300 will play into negotiations.

There is a possibility here that they could have very few or no A320s just 220s and 321s. If they wanted to be nasty try they could shift half the current mainline flying to NJS by giving them 40 220s for East Coast flying while mainline has only 50 or so single isle aircraft, all A321neos.

[ChrisJ800]

Boeing need to lift their game. Virgin are going for the Max so its a good point of differentiation!

[Torukmacto]

Can you ccq from 320 to 220 ? They are different manufactures ? No cost savings running a fleet of 321’s and 220’s .

[Alt Flieger]

Shows how badly Boeing dropped the ball with the Max.and not replacing the B737 earlier.
Lot of rusted on Boeing drivers at QF.
But there has been a lot of exchange of Pilots between Jetstar and Mainline over the years and many coming back to the B737-800 will tell you that
the A320 /A321 is a superior product.
So no suprise really.

[Icarus2001]

Mainline Pilots:

“NJS and Network are going to get given even more of our flying 😡”

NJS Pilots:

“Mainline and Network are going to get given all our flying 😵”

Network Pilots:

“Let’s get as much of Mainline and NJSs flying as we can 😃”

Sunstate/Eastern Pilots:

“This is our chance to get a jet and take all of NJS and Networks flying 😃”

ALLIANCE pilots, "Hold my beer". :O

[dr dre]

I'm actually interested in how the A220-300 will play into negotiations.

There is a possibility here that they could have very few or no A320s just 220s and 321s. If they wanted to be nasty try they could shift half the current mainline flying to NJS by giving them 40 220s for East Coast flying while mainline has only 50 or so single isle aircraft, all A321neos.

Don’t forget there’s still a substantial number of 738s going to be around, in 2024 when the first Airbuses arrive there’ll be 8 738s that will be 16 years old and about 34 that will only be 10-12 years old. The latter will still fly til 2034. They’re cheap to run and you’ve got crews trained up on them, so why wouldn’t you keep operating them til the end of their life.

[lederhosen]

There must be a lot of junior pilots with airbus experience as well as other synergies. I converted from Boeing to Airbus fairly late on in my career and it was a very positive experience, much easier than the other way around I am told. From a passenger standpoint the cabin is much better. There will obviously be a transition period. But at some point the benefits of a single fleet will outweigh any savings from operating older aircraft. There are also substantial fuel savings to be had, so the cost of aircraft ownership is only one aspect of the total cost.

[krismiler]

Aircraft purchases usually come with a certain number of free type ratings per airframe, and no doubt simulators will be needed as well. Pilots could be seconded to Jetstar to get some time on type in advance.

Overall it seems like a good fleet mix and very adaptable with every domestic city pair available including those that normally need widebodies. Thinner international routes could also be opened up as well.

[Capt Fathom]

I’ve always found the A320’s a little claustrophobic in comparison to the 737. Maybe that was just the Jetstar configuration?

[das Uber Soldat]

I’ve always found the A320’s a little claustrophobic in comparison to the 737. Maybe that was just the Jetstar configuration?
Eh? Cockpit is miles bigger and the airframe itself is wider. Seat pitch is a bit less than Qantas but you paid 12 dollars for your ticket so....

[Capt Fathom]

Nothing to do with price. It was a cabin comparison! Don’t be so touchy ‘bout your precious Jetstar!

[krismiler]

A320 cabin is definitely wider, especially at the back. I remember one flight in the rear row of seats on a B737 which were all occupied, we couldn't all sit back at the same time as our shoulders overlapped.

The flightdeck is noticeably bigger as well, the jump seat can slide behind the F/O and there is standing room behind the Captain. No stringing up a deckchair in the doorway.

Baggage containers instead of hand loading should speeding upon the turn around times.

[morno]

A320 cabin is definitely wider, especially at the back. I remember one flight in the rear row of seats on a B737 which were all occupied, we couldn't all sit back at the same time as our shoulders overlapped.

The flightdeck is noticeably bigger as well, the jump seat can slide behind the F/O and there is standing room behind the Captain. No stringing up a deckchair in the doorway.

Baggage containers instead of hand loading should speeding upon the turn around times.

You can actually even option an extra jumpseat behind the captain. It’s slightly more comfortable than the main one between the 2 seats at the back.

[Ollie Onion]

No comparison, the A320 is way more comfortable. Just compare checking on the 737 Jumpseat compared to the A320, I know which one I preferred.

[SHVC]

320 is better in every way regarding cabin and flight deck. It’s a true multi crew aircraft. it will be interesting seeing how the 10+ yr 73 skippers adjust to Airbus philosophy. Or QF will try and Boeingise it and change everything to re-invent the wheel.

Seems Airbus will be very busy moving forward KLM have ordered over 100 320 and 4 350s.

[theheadmaster]

320 is better in every way regarding cabin and flight deck. It’s a true multi crew aircraft. it will be interesting seeing how the 10+ yr 73 skippers adjust to Airbus philosophy. Or QF will try and Boeingise it and change everything to re-invent the wheel.

Seems Airbus will be very busy moving forward KLM have ordered over 100 320 and 4 350s.

You do realise Qantas mainline have been flying Airbus A330s since around 2002, and before that flew the ex-Australian Airlines A300? Boeing to Airbus and vice-versa is not a new thing at all for mainline.

[SHVC]

That was not my point. My point is old, set in their way 73 drivers will find it hard to adjust. Not all 73 skips have flown an Airbus.

[Bleve]

Or QF will try and Boeingise it and change everything to re-invent the wheel.

Keg should be able to confirm, but I believe Qantas operate their A330s using off the shelf Airbus procedures.

[Chris2303]

You’ve would have had to been pretty naïve not to see this coming,

Considering it was signalled at least 12 months ago.............

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

That was not my point. My point is old, set in their way 73 drivers will find it hard to adjust. Not all 73 skips have flown an Airbus.

I think you’ll find the QF 737 drivers are a relatively youthful bunch. A lot of the ‘old, set in their way 73 drivers’ moved on …. to the A330.

Jeez, every pilot at some point has never flown an Airbus. Are we perhaps making too much of a big deal about it?

[das Uber Soldat]

You do realise Qantas mainline have been flying Airbus A330s since around 2002, and before that flew the ex-Australian Airlines A300? Boeing to Airbus and vice-versa is not a new thing at all for mainline.
Would this be the same 330s that Qantas had to retrofit the exterior light switches to work in reverse because Qantas pilots couldn't cope? :P

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Would this be the same 330s that Qantas had to retrofit the exterior light switches to work in reverse because Qantas pilots couldn't cope? :P

No, that was done so the jets would be different to the sims, just to f#@k with us.

[dr dre]

That was not my point. My point is old, set in their way 73 drivers will find it hard to adjust. Not all 73 skips have flown an Airbus.

Like I posted earlier there’s still going to be half of the 738 fleet flying for another 10-12 years. This replacement project goes to 2034. So plenty of opportunity for those to who want to stay on the aircraft to remain there. And with the numbers from the current fleet who’ll move the long haul there’ll probably be training onto the 73 until the end of the decade at least.

Here’s a prediction, as the latest 738s are younger than the youngest 330s the 737 will be around longer than the 330, which will probably be gone by decade’s end.

[BuzzBox]

it will be interesting seeing how the 10+ yr 73 skippers adjust to Airbus philosophy.

This former Boeing captain converted to Airbus after almost 20 years on various Boeing types. The mindset is somewhat different, but it's certainly not hard to adjust. It's just another bloody aeroplane!

[morno]

That was not my point. My point is old, set in their way 73 drivers will find it hard to adjust. Not all 73 skips have flown an Airbus.

I’ve flown with captains who have come from Boeing to Airbus, most haven’t had a problem because they are experienced enough to understand that things will be different and that it’s important to ensure you know your aircraft well. There are however a few who insisted on still flying it as closely as possible to a Boeing, and funnily enough they always had difficulty.

Is it true that Qantas doesn’t read the FMA out loud? That’s very against Airbus philosophy.

[StudentInDebt]

This former Boeing captain converted to Airbus after almost 20 years on various Boeing types. The mindset is somewhat different, but it's certainly not hard to adjust. It's just another bloody aeroplane! ^^ This ^^

[cynphil]

Is it true that Qantas doesn’t read the FMA out loud? That’s very against Airbus philosophy.[/QUOTE] Morno

Morno….I don’t know where you get your information or you just make SH…t up

Qantas has always read out the FMA on their Airbus fleets….

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Is it true that Qantas doesn’t read the FMA out loud? That’s very against Airbus philosophy.

No, it isn’t true. Where do you get this sh1t from??

[Capt Fathom]

Is it true that Qantas doesn’t read the FMA out loud?
They announce FMA changes softly so as to not disturb the passengers!

[morno]

Sheesh, no need to get cranky over it. Simply an honest question.

[cynphil]

It’s not an honest question when you start it with “ Is it true “………

[rexxxxxy]

The C-Series/A220 is great for the customer. Big windows, quiet, and the widest middle seat in the sky - even a window in the lavs.

Going to be a good move to have that one in the fleet.

[Rantallion]

How about we return to the topic of this thread…..

Project ‘Winton’ QF Domestic B737 replacement

lets discuss;

Will the current establishment of QF Shorthaul crews fly them?

QF SHEBA, what changes will be sought?

There’s a lot of hulls potentially to be ordered, what’s it going to take to keep the majority of them in mainline? Or has AJ diluted the group so far and wide that it’s going to be dog eat dog and a whole new low in terms and conditions?

Your thoughts everyone?

[dr dre]

How about we return to the topic of this thread…..

Project ‘Winton’ QF Domestic B737 replacement

lets discuss;

Will the current establishment of QF Shorthaul crews fly them?

QF SHEBA, what changes will be sought?

There’s a lot of hulls potentially to be ordered, what’s it going to take to keep the majority of them in mainline? Or has AJ diluted the group so far and wide that it’s going to be dog eat dog and a whole new low in terms and conditions?

Your thoughts everyone?

Everyone seems to jump immediately to the negative.

There’s no real indication why the 321XLR wouldn’t be flown by the pilots currently flying the aircraft they’re replacing. The routes currently flown by some 738s but also some 330s regionally.

Yes naturally it would fall to a SH arrangement, even if some say the replacement of the 330s means it should be flown under LH conditions.

Will efficiencies be sought to the SH in the next negotiations to confirm this? Probably, as what were wanted with the LH EBAs before the 787 and A350 were ordered.

Any subsequent contract probably wouldn’t be too bad, lots of worrying about the 787 and 350 conditions but in reality they both turned out to be pretty good deals.

No one seems to think the A220 will be flown by anyone but the outfit that currently flies the type they’re replacing - the 717.

[hotnhigh]

Alan hasn’t actually ordered anything yet. So his record remains…..

[C441]

It’s a true multi crew aircraft. it will be interesting seeing how the 10+ yr 73 skippers adjust to Airbus philosophy. Or QF will try and Boeingise it and change everything to re-invent the wheel.

That was not my point. My point is old, set in their way 73 drivers will find it hard to adjust. Not all 73 skips have flown an Airbus.

After 27 years on Qantas Boeings, I took the plunge and went to the 'Bus. It's probably the most difficult transition I've had but the training was excellent and followed the Airbus operational procedures exclusively. It's a training course designed for people who've flown any number and variety of previous types. The "10+ yr 73 skippers" will have no problems adjusting and those that are towards the end of their career will just stay there until the last 73 leaves if they cant be bothered with a 'Bus course.

[Keg]

Is it true that Qantas doesn’t read the FMA out loud? That’s very against Airbus philosophy.

I’m wondering where it was that someone would have suggested this to you in the first place?!?!?

Apart from the Taxi/landing light switches being backward QF Airbus ops are otherwise all but identical to Airbus SOPs.

[krismiler]

The introduction of EFIS back in the late 1980s was a problem for older pilots who were used to stream driven gauges. Together with fly by wire, it proved too much for a few who couldn't hack the transition.

These days, everyone is used to glass cockpits so it's basically ECAM handling and the flight control systems together with the Airbus philosophy that needs to be learnt. The bus has lots of built in protections if you get things wrong and I would say that going from Airbus to Boeing and losing much of the safety net would be quite challenging as well.

[BuzzBox]

The bus has lots of built in protections if you get things wrong and I would say that going from Airbus to Boeing and losing much of the safety net would be quite challenging as well.

I've seen a few 'interesting' go-arounds in the simulator when Airbus pilots converting to Boeing have forgotten to press the TOGA switches. It gets even more interesting when they also forget to trim!

[Alt Flieger]

I've seen a few 'interesting' go-arounds in the simulator when Airbus pilots converting to Boeing have forgotten to press the TOGA switches. It gets even more interesting when they also forget to trim!

Agree.
One Airbus F/o doing his initial Command on the B737-800 commented to me in the sim. that he couldn’t believe how much hard work the B737 was engine out compared to the A330. Made very rude comparisons to the product of Soviet truck factories !
QF training department has many years experience of converting Boeing drivers to Airbus , including crusty old ones. Won’t be an issue.

[Potsie Weber]

Agree.
One Airbus F/o doing his initial Command on the B737-800 commented to me in the sim. that he couldn’t believe how much hard work the B737 was engine out compared to the A330. Made very rude comparisons to the product of Soviet truck factories !
QF training department has many years experience of converting Boeing drivers to Airbus , including crusty old ones. Won’t be an issue.

Yep. press toga = autopilot disconnect. Great logic that one!

I came off Airbus to do command training in 737-300 and 400 simulators. Bloody hard work, circling approach in the 300 sim with woeful graphics and drifting map.

[Scooter Rassmussin]

This has to be some pipe dream , COVID isn’t finished yet , the Hospitals will fill in early New Year and the borders will close , how will any Airline survive that .

[turbantime]

This has to be some pipe dream , COVID isn’t finished yet , the Hospitals will fill in early New Year and the borders will close , how will any Airline survive that .
You lockdown tragics make me laugh. NSW health Facebook page is full of people like you hankering for more restrictions and lockdowns. Just stay at home if you’re so worried while the rest of us get on with life.

[Icarus2001]

Exactly, if you feel unsafe, stay home, wear a hazmat suit and mask and keep out of the way of the rest of us.

[cLeArIcE]

This has to be some pipe dream , COVID isn’t finished yet , the Hospitals will fill in early New Year and the borders will close , how will any Airline survive that .
Haha, I've always wondered if it's easy to be this stupid or , is it something you have to work at regularly?

[Buckshot]

It will be an easier transition for the LH bus drivers bidding back to SH at 65

[bangbounceboeing]

With shiny new Airbuses for Qantas and NJS what will become of the Alliance E190 wet lease operation?
I understand the agreement was for a 3 year period. Perhaps used as a stop gag between retiring aircraft and new arrivals/ training etc 🤷

[Icarus2001]

With shiny new Airbuses for Qantas and NJS what will become of the Alliance E190 wet lease operation? Having the option to deploy 100 seat aircraft with business class and IFE on pairings that do not warrant 180 seats is why they have the E190. The smaller aircraft can also supply frequency.
When will they get their first A220? Given that the order HAS NOT been placed yet and is not EXPECTED until late 2022, the A220 will not arrive until 2025 if ever.

[neville_nobody]

With shiny new Airbuses for Qantas and NJS what will become of the Alliance E190 wet lease operation?


Just another player in the Network vs National Jet vs Mainline vs Alliance vs Qlink race to the bottom.

[Going Boeing]

The industrial issues surrounding this are significant but, I don’t think that they are insurmountable. Joyce is always out to extract every saving he can at the expense of the staff but, I believe that an agreement will be reached with mainline flying the A320’s & A321’s. It’s probable that Cobham will fly the A220’s when they arrive as replacements for the very tired (in the cabins, at least) B717’s. I think Network will virtually do all the West Australian domestic flying using Jetstar A320 cast offs.

Ever since the B767 was retired early, Qantas has missed having an aircraft to fill the capacity gap between the B737-800 & the A330-200 on domestic routes so, as the first 15 B738’s (ordered immediately after Ansett’s collapse) come up for replacement, it’s not surprising that they are planned to be replaced by the larger capacity A321XLR (or even some of the A321LR’s that were ordered for the Group some time ago). When they have sufficient numbers of this capacity, the subsequent B738’s should be replaced (as they reach the end of their service life) by A320 NEO’s.

This fleet will allow distinct product differentiation from their domestic competitors (even Jetstar has better seat comfort than the others) and I expect that will feature in the QF advertising when the B738 fleet numbers drop significantly. The PW GTF engines will deliver significant fuel savings from the current fleet and Joyce will proudly claim his green credentials (environmental, as well as Irish).

The sad point is that, in about 15 years time, the only Boeing aircraft operated by Qantas will be the B787 fleet.

[PoppaJo]

A320s for Network, Jetstar and Qantas. All within the same group, all aircraft originally sourced from the same order, yet all three crews on very different wages. Looking at Mainline and Jetstar. Two A321s leave Melbourne for Sydney. Two long serving captains. One earns $100k more.

A lot of work needs to be done in that space. Budget Airline does not mean budget wages. Mining Crews earning less than AirAsia. They will continue to exploit for as long as we let them, very important especially those at VA not to take anymore haircuts, don’t be apart of the race to the bottom.

[Angle of Attack]

100k more? What’s that based on? Min guarantee? max hours? That’s a very general statement that is basically false. I think at the moment Jetstar Captains are on mid 200’s ? (Correct me if wrong) QF Shorthaul Captains are on about 230 on min hours but potentially could make high 300’s at max hours but that’s only a few hard arses. I’d say the vast majority are on mid to high 200’s in QF. The Shorthaul award is so vastly flexible compared to most other awards that there is no real set wage, you earn more if you work more.

[neville_nobody]

A lot of work needs to be done in that space. Budget Airline does not mean budget wages. Mining Crews earning less than AirAsia. They will continue to exploit for as long as we let them, very important especially those at VA not to take anymore haircuts, don’t be apart of the race to the bottom.

And you propose to do this how? If you want to play hard ball then they will give a bunch of aircraft to a cheaper subsidiary. Even if there was a real pilot shortage they are just going to open the immigration floodgates and every African, South American and anybody else with a ATPL will fall over themselves to work here.

Your argument here is what management's argument is. We have the same aircraft flown safely by two different crews on vastly different salaries so how can we justify paying so much??

[Buttscratcher]

Ok, I'll call bull****.
I dont believe the J* line captains are working hard enough at the moment to get mid 200s

[PoppaJo]

And you propose to do this how? If you want to play hard ball then they will give a bunch of aircraft to a cheaper subsidiary. Even if there was a real pilot shortage they are just going to open the immigration floodgates and every African, South American and anybody else with a ATPL will fall over themselves to work here.

Your argument here is what management's argument is. We have the same aircraft flown safely by two different crews on vastly different salaries so how can we justify paying so much??
My frustration lies in the fact that the previous proposed EBA before any pandemic came along, went backwards. Meanwhile the other guys go forwards. Even Cobham had a decent win. How can budget airline pilots work more for the same. One Euro operator tried that one, we will remove the pay freezes, lets increase min hours and hold the pay instead. Perhaps it’s the union. I don’t know, I keep getting told it’s progressing well and something good is coming, when the reality is something flat or backwards.

However your point is correct. Perhaps future generations will have better luck. This isn’t the decade to play hard ball sadly. You don’t need to go to South Africa just yet, plenty in our own backyard at the moment.

[Rabbitwear]

JQ Captain pay base salary $200,000. Based on 75hours.
captain base on flexiline, for 56 hours so equivalent to QF full time $149,900, close to half of QF mainline for the same hours worked.

[Australopithecus]

JQ Captain pay base salary $200,000. Based on 75hours.
captain base on flexiline, for 56 hours so equivalent to QF full time $149,900, close to half of QF mainline for the same hours worked.

Not half, but getting close to $70k less.

[Buttscratcher]

.....what's 'flexline'?

[shortshortz]

100k more? What’s that based on? Min guarantee? max hours? That’s a very general statement that is basically false. I think at the moment Jetstar Captains are on mid 200’s ? (Correct me if wrong) QF Shorthaul Captains are on about 230 on min hours but potentially could make high 300’s at max hours but that’s only a few hard arses. I’d say the vast majority are on mid to high 200’s in QF. The Shorthaul award is so vastly flexible compared to most other awards that there is no real set wage, you earn more if you work more.

Do you just make up figures as you go?
QF line captain on "min hours" is on 53hrs pm vs JQ on 75hrs at a base less than QF. The "hard arses", as you put it, can then make an additional 47hrs OT to bring them up to 100 hrs pm at an overtime rate in excess of $80 ph more than JQ, even though JQ only have the ability to squeeze in 25 hrs OT to reach 100hrs pm. These "hard arses" who work similar hours to every JQ pilot (pre covid) then make in excess of $400k. The "vast majority" are on over $300k, and if you argue they're not, then they must be on not much more than 53hrs pm, which puts them similar to a JQ flexi-line pilot (part time) on $150k. No matter which way you slice it, QF sit on $100k more, for working less weekends, holidays, early shifts, with more support, significantly higher bonuses (4 fold), 3% pa currently, 13 rosters pa (again an ability to bank OT), easier EBA sign offs, ability to move to LH award, an open-time system, heck even 50 less pax per a/c. Basically false? Your whole statement is false.

[717tech]

Shortshortz, what's an "open-time system"?

[Boomerang]

.....what's 'flexline'?

Jetstar speak for 75% part time. The resultant OT threshold for block hours is 56hrs.

[Buttscratcher]

Ah, right, thanks mate.
Well, I guess it's still a sad fact of life that folks get paid different wages for flying the same machinery.
The situation is unlikely to change with new EBAs, as the Q juggernaut negotiators are ruthless.

[flying_a_nix_box]

As SLF, I much prefer Le Bus, to the Boeing. Nice to see them go this way.

[Blueskymine]

Do you just make up figures as you go?
QF line captain on "min hours" is on 53hrs pm vs JQ on 75hrs at a base less than QF. The "hard arses", as you put it, can then make an additional 47hrs OT to bring them up to 100 hrs pm at an overtime rate in excess of $80 ph more than JQ, even though JQ only have the ability to squeeze in 25 hrs OT to reach 100hrs pm. These "hard arses" who work similar hours to every JQ pilot (pre covid) then make in excess of $400k. The "vast majority" are on over $300k, and if you argue they're not, then they must be on not much more than 53hrs pm, which puts them similar to a JQ flexi-line pilot (part time) on $150k. No matter which way you slice it, QF sit on $100k more, for working less weekends, holidays, early shifts, with more support, significantly higher bonuses (4 fold), 3% pa currently, 13 rosters pa (again an ability to bank OT), easier EBA sign offs, ability to move to LH award, an open-time system, heck even 50 less pax per a/c. Basically false? Your whole statement is false.

Ones a full service airline, with narrow selection criteria, long lead times to command and promotion.

The other is a low cost airline, short lead times to command and promotion and a wider selection criteria.

So six years at JQ to command wages (precovid) of a 200k+ job, or 15 years sub 200k at mainline as a narrow body FO or SO, then maybe 5 years as a wide body FO, before choosing a bigger wide body or a narrow body command.

At the end of a 35 year career, you may find that the JQ pilot will be ahead in total earnings. I don’t have time to work out it. But it won’t be far off.

[SHVC]

So six years at JQ to command wages (precovid) of a 200k+ job, or 15 years sub 200k at mainline as a narrow body FO or SO, then maybe 5 years as a wide body FO, before choosing a bigger wide body or a narrow body command.

6yr command was what it was about 2yrs ago. It’s funny flying with cadets who roll their eyes in sigh saying it took them 6 long yrs to get a command, most of them don’t have a clue! JQ commands will blow well out to 10yrs+ for a new joiner- we have a young CPT group not to many at retirement age and the ones that are, are keen to keep going.

As for the money- One is an airline the other is a LCC it is what it is. If you want to earn Airline money go work for one. For me, I like JQ the flying is great, variety is good.

[Buttscratcher]

LLC vs an 'airline'?? WTF are you trying to say, man?
If you're talking full service, full price 'airline', then what of Network and Cobham? Folks booking a QF ticket on the system from Per to BME will still pay top Qantas dollar.
no LLC there.

[Blueskymine]

LLC vs an 'airline'?? WTF are you trying to say, man?
If you're talking full service, full price 'airline', then what of Network and Cobham? Folks booking a QF ticket on the system from Per to BME will still pay top Qantas dollar.
no LLC there.

Regional airlines.

[Ollie Onion]

LCC v Legacy, fact of the matter is you can always expect LCC to be paid less than a Legacy carrier.

[Jetsbest]

LCC v Legacy, fact of the matter is you can always expect LCC to be paid less than a Legacy carrier.

Not necessarily…. It’s not like that for Southwest Airlines in the USA is it?…. I heard they’re the highest-paid 737 pilots in the world.🤔

[neville_nobody]

LCC v Legacy, fact of the matter is you can always expect LCC to be paid less than a Legacy carrier.


Interestingly management don't have the same expectation.

[morno]

Interestingly management don't have the same expectation.

Well become a manager then

[krismiler]

Low cost equals quicker time to command but less money when you get it. Legacy airline equals longer time to command but more money when you switch seats.

The main factor is age at joining, if you're early 20s then being in QF would put you ahead. Late 30s and JQ would be more lucrative.

[Australopithecus]

I really don’t think that fast commands are still a thing at JQ. As previously mentioned, the fleet size is approaching its natural limit, the existing captain cohort is younger than airline average. QF had a lost decade without hiring or promotions. The demographics there are much in favour of the new joiner because the airline appears to be expanding and the retirements will soon accelerate. I imagine a new hire at QF could get a SH command* in ten years, or a right seat on a senior LH type which may be as lucrative anyway.

*Assumes industrial status quo. Assumes QF group revenue recovery sometime soon. Also assumes wet markets don’t cough up another pathogen anytime soon. All big, unsafe assumptions.

[dr dre]

. I imagine a new hire at QF could get a SH command* in ten years.

Not even close.....

At the moment 19-22 years depending on base. It may come down in the future, but 10 years?

Tell him he’s dreaming.....

[Australopithecus]

Its 19-22 years right now because of the demographics. You write some of the only posts worth reading in this site so you are plenty smart enough to know that nothing lasts forever. There is a ten year unoccupied gap on the career progression ladder. The last person above that gap will indeed be circa 20 years. The next person not so much.

[dr dre]

Its 19-22 years right now because of the demographics. You write some of the only posts worth reading in this site so you are plenty smart enough to know that nothing lasts forever. There is a ten year unoccupied gap on the career progression ladder. The last person above that gap will indeed be circa 20 years. The next person not so much.

At the moment, yes it’s a long time to command. Yes, there will be demographic changes. And some who were at the start of the 2016-2020 recruiting wave will have a shorter time to career goals than most. They may even come close to getting a command within 10 years. But I don’t think it will become a regular thing for all entrants into the company. Upswings are usually followed by downswings.

Overall in a Legacy carrier with most LH cruise relief pilots employed as Second officers you could expect what 20% of your career SO, 40% as FO 40% as Captain? If you have a 40 year career that’s still at least 20 years in standard times before getting a command.

Quick commands can come around when there’s great expansion, like almost doubling the fleet in two years when the 747-300 and 767 were introduced in the mid 80s, plenty of commands achieved in record time for those at the start of that wave. But that now would mean looking at an additional net 120 aircraft coming in a short amount of time.

But hey, at least we’re talking expansion, recruitment and potentially quicker commands rather than redundancies and stand downs!

[das Uber Soldat]

Ones a full service airline, with narrow selection criteria,

The other is a low cost airline, with..... wider selection criteria

I got a good chuckle out of this nonsense. Tell me, are they still telling new recruits on day 1 at mainline that they're 'the best of the best'?

I've been offered a job by both entities and I've got some bad news for you kid, there ain't nothing special about the 'width of the selection criteria' at Qantas. You lot are just as dumb as the rest of us.

[Eclan]

It’s a simple replacement for the 737’s, why the f**k would they try and farm the flying out :ugh:. **** there’s some paranoid ones amongst you.
How long have you been in aviation? If you were flying in the last century you'd know farming out or otherwise changing the deal is precisely what "they" will try to do at every opportunity and a new fleet is as good an opportunity as it gets. Look up something called Project Sunrise which is a working title for an attempt at changing conditions. "They" rely on the good and unsuspecting nature of the masses not to see the pineapple on its way.

[PoppaJo]

When looking into demographics, those arriving for an interview in around 10 years will spend probably no more than 5 years waiting for a command at the Star. Would be much longer still at Mainline however it wouldn’t be 20 years. Whilst the age in the left seat at the Star skews much younger, they are more likely to pack up for another job later on vs the other 2. Cadets with 4 bars now, won’t be able to sit still for the next 20-30 years at a loco. I recall the youngest VA Captain was mid 40s so mid next decade the entire QF and VA 737 ranks are retired.


So those getting the first GA job in the next couple of years shouldn’t have too many issues on the job front when the time for big stuff arrives in a decade.

The days of long waits for commands will be a thing of the past once the tail end of Gen Y, and then Gen Z start to take the industry off our hands. Purely as there will be very little pilots left, and a whole heap of retirements. However, those two generations don’t want to be Pilots by the looks of things, many more attractive industries now available to them.

[Australopithecus]

I wonder how many pilots would go overseas for a better job in the future. There are no better jobs anymore. Cathay is toast, the middle east carriers no longer worthy and China? Pfft.

[morno]

How long have you been in aviation? If you were flying in the last century you'd know farming out or otherwise changing the deal is precisely what "they" will try to do at every opportunity and a new fleet is as good an opportunity as it gets. Look up something called Project Sunrise which is a working title for an attempt at changing conditions. "They" rely on the good and unsuspecting nature of the masses not to see the pineapple on its way.

Over 20 years mate. And you know what, Qantas pilots still fly every fleet that has been introduced into mainline since then (737-800, A330, A380, 787, A350 [pending it’s likely arrival])

I don’t see the likelihood of the A321’s at least, with a “Link” on the side of them. The A220’s probably will, but they’re a 717 replacement, so not exactly a replacement for any mainline aircraft.

Of course management is going to try and get some concessions out of you, they wouldn’t be doing their job if they didn’t try. But given it’s a very similar aircraft type, with perhaps the exception of some additional longer range flying (hey, wouldn’t you believe it, maybe that’s why they’re wanting to discuss it!! :ugh:), I doubt they’re going to want many if any concessions. Who knows, maybe they might even offer you more!

[PoppaJo]

I wonder how many pilots would go overseas for a better job in the future. There are no better jobs anymore. Cathay is toast, the middle east carriers no longer worthy and China? Pfft.
At the moment, no. In the future, I believe so.

2030s and beyond it’s pretty clear there will be a lack of bodies across the board and to get those, cash and bonuses galore will need to be offered. I don’t think much will change here, the regionals and Jetstar might suffer a bit.

I think Gen Y/Z think differently. I’ve fly with many and I’ve asked the question. They don’t seem to want to hang around in some low cost like I’ve done for the last 20 years. Those big new toys with folding wings will lure many if cash and benefits are being thrown around.

[Australopithecus]

Yeah, if cash and bennies are back to what they were in 2005, adjusted for inflation. Leopards don’t change spots too often, and the ME3 have amptly proven that you don’t go there for a career. I think the big money days for western captains in China are largely over too, although there might be a couple more years to be had.

Covid has taught that the expat life can come to an abrupt halt for the most arbitrary, flimsy reasons.

All of which might be a good thing:pilots may eventually force higher wages rather than join the diaspora.

[SHVC]

As humans we have short memories. When China opens up and offering $$$$ pilots will trip over themself getting there. This pandemic has a few yrs to run yet.

[cLeArIcE]

I think Gen Y/Z think differently. I’ve fly with many and I’ve asked the question. They don’t seem to want to hang around in some low cost like I’ve done for the last 20 years. Those big new toys with folding wings will lure many if cash and benefits are being thrown around.
It also depends on what stage of life your in. A few year's ago I'd agree with your sentiments about not wanting to stay at a LCC.I dont Work for QF, I'd prefer to work there but I don't know now. Ive also lived overseas, it's not that great. Aus is my home, I like my house in a rural area surrounded with trees and greenery. My Mrs likes it. I want my kid's to have this to. But, flying narrow bodies domestically in Aus is boring as batsh*t 99% of the time. Since I started this career, I've always wanted to fly wide bodies to all corners of the globe but, once I turned 30+ i realised that, 1: I'll probably never be Happy with what I have career wise. 2: That flying wide bodies overseas will also quickly becomes boring as batsh*t too. So I try to be content with what I have. I remind myself that flying is Just a job, it's not my life nor does it define my status or who i am. Giving up a life here for some **** hole in the middle east / Asia for a big shiny Jet would be (for me) incredibly foolish.

[Australopithecus]

Speaking from experience, becoming an expat is an ugly thing to do to yourself. Even emigrating to arguably the best country in the world is a choice that exacts a toll. A house in your native country is about as good as life gets, but many people only realise that after it is too late.

I have met plenty of pilots who hailed from real **** holes who still were wistfully nostalgic for the old country. Imagine how home sick you'd be leaving a joint like this to live in an actual **** hole.

[PoppaJo]

It all depends where you go. I’ve got many friends in Singapore and USA who seem very happy. They do plan on returning during retirement pending what the accountant says. It’s not all bad however it’s not all good either. Some of these people have become very financially comfortable, and can retire back home on much more vs what they would have had should they never have left. I don’t know many in the ME who are happy or financially that great sadly.

With a lack of overall bodies in the long run, it might be possible for the GA lad or girl of today, to do a stint abroad with a big twin, and be able to return home and take a narrow body job off the bat. Unless you ‘know people’, returning home in recent times and picking something in the left seat, let alone the right seat, was very rare. Start ups was the real only way of getting a job back here, and you need to know people. Tiger originally crewed expats from Hong Kong and it appears Bonza will do the same looking at where it’s Management are from. Once you go, you don’t come back was generally the rule.

[Australopithecus]

I imagine that the USA is about the only possibility for GA or even junior LCC crew to improve their incomes. The E3 visa program is a gift to Aussies, and it seems that the US will need thousands of pilots for the foreseeable future, with potential for a permanent residency and a legacy carrier job. Others may have the right to work in Europe or the UK, but I think the pay & conditions there are pretty poor.

I don’t know how many LCC F/Os here would emigrate to join the bottom of an E jet list despite the rather more interesting follow on opportunities. As the saying goes: “It's hard to make predictions, especially about the future”.

[Gazza mate]

The new AIPA President has proposed bringing NJS Pilots across to the Short-haul agreement in The Australian saying “we would like to represent them too”. I suppose this would make a lot of sense. The 2 groups fly virtually the same routes just with different aircraft. What do the NJS folks think of this proposal? I suppose you would be giving up significant lifestyle clauses. Are there any benefits to NJS crew? I assume seniority lists would remain seperate.

The person who started this thread probably has some good insights.

[Colonel_Klink]

The new AIPA President has proposed bringing NJS Pilots across to the Short-haul agreement in The Australian saying “we would like to represent them too”. I suppose this would make a lot of sense. The 2 groups fly virtually the same routes just with different aircraft. What do the NJS folks think of this proposal? I suppose you would be giving up significant lifestyle clauses. Are there any benefits to NJS crew? I assume seniority lists would remain seperate.

I wouldn’t want to speak for the new AIPA president - but it could very well be that the comment was taken out of context, and ‘we would like to represent them too’ might actually mean that AIPA want to start covering members who work for NJS, such as at JQ and QLink. I’m not sure about others here, but the author of that Australian article tends to get key things wrong about the issues she writes about, especially when it comes to Pilot industrial agreement or their organisations.

For what it’s worth, there’s a snow flakes chance in hell of QF allowing NJS crew to be employed under the SH EA. The idea is to divide and conquer - not bring all of the pilot groups together.

[Capt Fathom]

Baldrick, I have a cunning plan.

[dr dre]

For what it’s worth, there’s a snow flakes chance in hell of QF allowing NJS crew to be employed under the SH EA. The idea is to divide and conquer - not bring all of the pilot groups together.

I have to agree

Although an integration into one list like the Qantas and Australian pilots in 1994 would be the ideal that time seems to be a one off. The trend ever since has definitely been to to expand to as many entities as possible.

[Lapon]

The new AIPA President has proposed bringing NJS Pilots across to the Short-haul agreement in The Australian saying “we would like to represent them too”. I suppose this would make a lot of sense. The 2 groups fly virtually the same routes just with different aircraft. What do the NJS folks think of this proposal? I suppose you would be giving up significant lifestyle clauses. Are there any benefits to NJS crew? I assume seniority lists would remain seperate.

It just sounds to me like nothing more than a polite way of saying 'we see this as a good opportunity to extend our current member base'.
Thats understandable, but I can't see what material incentive there would be for NJS crews to switch from thier existing unions, any representation would surely always be of a 'mainline first' persuasion.

[airdualbleedfault]

The new AIPA President has proposed bringing NJS Pilots across to the Short-haul agreement in The Australian saying “we would like to represent them too”. I suppose this would make a lot of sense. The 2 groups fly virtually the same routes just with different aircraft. What do the NJS folks think of this proposal? I suppose you would be giving up significant lifestyle clauses. Are there any benefits to NJS crew? I assume seniority lists would remain seperate.
God damn you!! I just spat coffee all over my laptop LMFAO that is some funny 5hit

[SHVC]

Project winton hey! Will it be shelved now for a while as the COVID recession is on its way.

[dr dre]

It just sounds to me like nothing more than a polite way of saying 'we see this as a good opportunity to extend our current member base'.
Thats understandable, but I can't see what material incentive there would be for NJS crews to switch from thier existing unions, any representation would surely always be of a 'mainline first' persuasion.

NJS crews would get the benefit of being integrated into the mainline seniority list and the increased career opportunities if it went down like the Q and A pilots in 1994. They'd be a part of mainline

Project winton hey! Will it be shelved now for a while as the COVID recession is on its way.

I doubt it. It's a 12 year project, there's no Covid related recession on the way (travel post Covid is booming). The conflict situation may have a temporary effect but it seems to be nearing a stalemate which will mean the conflict's length is measured in weeks not months or years. The oil price has spiked but a lot of that is due to the post pandemic boom not the war. Oil price is still below 2010-2014 levels.

I'd say travel to Eastern Europe may be down over the next few months but the rest of the world will be doing fine.

[pinkpanther1]

Qantas would never allow it. The whole point is to keep the group split. That way if anyone gets any cheeky ideas come EBA time all the company has to do is slip the "XYZ are happy to do it for this, so if you're not going to negotiate we'll just give it to them"
integration robs them of that card. Think of it as QFs version of mutually assured destruction 🤔

[Roj approved]

It just sounds to me like nothing more than a polite way of saying 'we see this as a good opportunity to extend our current member base'.
Thats understandable, but I can't see what material incentive there would be for NJS crews to switch from thier existing unions, any representation would surely always be of a 'mainline first' persuasion.

It is THIS^^^^^

I don’t believe that there is a “snowballs chance in hell” of seeing any joining of seniority lists of QF Group anytime soon.

Maybe, and it’s a slim Maybe, after the “Project Sunrise” and “Project Winton” aircraft and pay scales are bedded in, at a pay rate closer to Jetstar than QF, and the post Covid “Project Recovery” targets have been met, it may be beneficial to bring everyone onto the same list.

But why do that?

Having all these separate entities is the greatest industrial wedge they have had ever.

Without any “Scope” clauses, they just send the flying to the cheapest and most desperate entity and watch the desperation hit those that missed out.

Sure, it costs them a bit in training as pilots move around the group airlines, but that is a small (tax deductible) price to pay for longer term lower wages.

[ShandywithSugar]

Voting for the A220 NJS & A321XLR for Mainline closes in 10 minutes. May the pineapples end here.

[WillieTheWimp]

Hahah, not by the sounds of things at NJS. Pilots are off signing up for pay freezes, while others are buying $20m houses...go figure!

[davidclarke]

Congratulations NJS!
You just voted all your protections away for nothing in return.
The race to the bottom continues.

[JoeTripodi]

What a bunch of pathetic spineless losers. You really have screwed yourselves and the rest of industry by accepting such a sub standard deal.
Please remember that you can't complain next time you are getting 10 hours rest in base between two 4 sector days.
I guess what more can you expect from a bunch of bitter Qantas rejects.

[Fujiroll76]

Congratulations NJS!
You just voted all your protections away for nothing in return.
The race to the bottom continues.

what was the vote split?

[davidclarke]

Vote split was 66% up.

[A320 Flyer]

QF SH 80% yes

[Check_Thrust]

I think you will find that most of the NJS pilots that voted in favour of the agreement did so not because they felt that it was a "good agreement" but because they faced too much long term uncertainty if they voted no and the agreement was rejected. Essentially they were coerced into voting yes.

On the outside looking in it is easy to say that the race to the bottom continues thanks to NJS voting this agreement up (or any other pilot group when it is their time to vote), but when a person is operating an aircraft that is due to be phased out and is not in a position to easily uproot and move to a new job due to things such as age or family, to me it is understandable that an agreement like this can get over the line.

No, it does not help other pilot groups, but when your head is on the chopping block it can be hard to stand ground for the "greater good" when the consequences can have a severe impact on your life. Things may have been different if the NJS pilot group were not operating an aircraft that is being replaced and had more things in their favour but unfortunately things were stack against them and management was able to utilise standover tactics to force this agreement through.

I would not be surprised to see an exodus of pilots from NJS that are in position to move on to greener pastures and I hope there will be sufficient amounts that do so so that managements behaviour bites them in the butt regarding crewing, but that may be wishful thinking on my part. I also foresee that a lot of goodwill will be lost and doing things such as extending or accepting duties that don't need to be accepted will decline resulting in more delays and/or cancellations. Whether management will notice and understand why will be another story.

[C441]

Memo from Qantas to Fair Work Australia:
We request that in order to reflect actuality, all current and future Workplace documentation involving amendments to Qantas Group employee's workplace terms and conditions are to refer to the "EU" - Enterprise Ultimatum…….:rolleyes:

[TimmyTee]

Bit harsh on the NJS pilots, when over the road we have 80% of SH pilots voting to reduce conditions with zero benefits in return - before EBA negotiations even start. Seems a touch hypocritical for qf guys calling NJS drivers spineless..

[ScepticalOptomist]

Bit harsh on the NJS pilots, when over the road we have 80% of SH pilots voting to reduce conditions with zero benefits in return - before EBA negotiations even start. Seems a touch hypocritical for qf guys calling NJS drivers spineless..

Maybe he was referring to both sets of pilots? :}

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

What make you think he/she is a Qantas pilot?

[Gunner747400]

Did anyone ever work out the cost of making the whole NJS pilot list redundant?

Seemed like a rather idle threat looking from the outside.....

[Clear_Left]

Did anyone ever work out the cost of making the whole NJS pilot list redundant?

Seemed like a rather idle threat looking from the outside.....

To make everyone go away? Only about $4mil.

[WillieTheWimp]

To make everyone go away? Only about $4mil.
Not sure where you get that figure from but it would be substantially more than that

[dr dre]

Or here’s a thought......

Maybe one or both sets of pilots, having reviewed the offer before them, and weighing up the benefits and disadvantages of such a deal, considered that the offer presented to them would open up good opportunities for their future with any perceived disadvantages being insignificant enough to be negligible in the long run. Coming to a different conclusion to others doesn’t make them “spineless”.

What we do know is these aircraft will be placed in the existing operations, and in the case of the A321 the pilots will continue to enjoy the best narrowbody conditions in the country.

[717tech]

I think you will find that most of the NJS pilots that voted in favour of the agreement did so not because they felt that it was a "good agreement" but because they faced too much long term uncertainty if they voted no and the agreement was rejected. Essentially they were coerced into voting yes.

On the outside looking in it is easy to say that the race to the bottom continues thanks to NJS voting this agreement up (or any other pilot group when it is their time to vote), but when a person is operating an aircraft that is due to be phased out and is not in a position to easily uproot and move to a new job due to things such as age or family, to me it is understandable that an agreement like this can get over the line.

No, it does not help other pilot groups, but when your head is on the chopping block it can be hard to stand ground for the "greater good" when the consequences can have a severe impact on your life. Things may have been different if the NJS pilot group were not operating an aircraft that is being replaced and had more things in their favour but unfortunately things were stack against them and management was able to utilise standover tactics to force this agreement through.

I would not be surprised to see an exodus of pilots from NJS that are in position to move on to greener pastures and I hope there will be sufficient amounts that do so so that managements behaviour bites them in the butt regarding crewing, but that may be wishful thinking on my part. I also foresee that a lot of goodwill will be lost and doing things such as extending or accepting duties that don't need to be accepted will decline resulting in more delays and/or cancellations. Whether management will notice and understand why will be another story.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but you have taken the words right out of my mouth. I'm sure the majority of NJS Pilots voted yes in shear desperation.

[Ollie Onion]

I love it how other pilot groups jump in and say 'you should have sacrificed your jobs for the good of us all!', easy to say but realistically everyone needs to look after their own situation. I am sure those that voted yes had a very good reason for doing so and should not be criticised for that.

[RENURPP]

The accepted agreement putsNJS conditions way ahead of Allianceand aheadofNetwork. It’s bit rich pointing the finger st NJS for continuing the race to the bottom.

[bazza stub]

I hope those guys who boldly declared that they would get the new aircraft and go hard at qantas next time, actually remember to go hard next time.

[rodney rude]

Sure, my comment will qualify me for Mastermind, special subject, The Bleeding Obvious - NJS guys suffer the old management line which we used to get 25 years ago when I was there, "guys, everyone wants our contract, its very competitive, and we must tighten our belts, take an 80% pay cut or you'll have no job." We got it all the time. Its far more serious now because QF have bought up all the NJS competitors and will just play them all off. I know its all obvious, but when you get guys calling them spineless, well they've not been in their shoes. And its not just a threat nowadays, make your branch of the operation uncompetitive and you WILL lose the work.

[Theflyingsosijman]

G'Day all,

A redundant here looking to get back into the industry so please excuse my naivety, it's been a couple of years. Does anyone have the new NJS agreement handy? It doesn't appear to be on the FWC site just yet and I'm sure that's the case seeing it has only been voted in. As I'm sure we've all seen NJS has opened up recruitment for B717 FOs and just I'm just trying to gather as much info on the future operation as I can before making decisions. ...not that I have many options down here in sunny old YMML at the moment anyway. Kind thanks in advance to any homo sapiens (PC enough?) that can offer up any useful information on the NJS situation

[Going Nowhere]

If the rumours are true that plenty of NJS drivers are looking to the US, then they probably don't care about too much other than a stable income until they head off.

[aussieflyboy]

G'Day all,

A redundant here looking to get back into the industry so please excuse my naivety, it's been a couple of years. Does anyone have the new NJS agreement handy? It doesn't appear to be on the FWC site just yet and I'm sure that's the case seeing it has only been voted in. As I'm sure we've all seen NJS has opened up recruitment for B717 FOs and just I'm just trying to gather as much info on the future operation as I can before making decisions. ...not that I have many options down here in sunny old YMML at the moment anyway. Kind thanks in advance to any homo sapiens (PC enough?) that can offer up any useful information on the NJS situation

Just download the 2017 agreement. The pay is the same for the next 4 years with a 2% (ie: 3+% less then CPI) increase and when (if) the 220 is introduced you just reduce all hard fought conditions by 40%.

[Theflyingsosijman]

Just download the 2017 agreement. The pay is the same for the next 4 years with a 2% (ie: 3+% less then CPI) increase and when (if) the 220 is introduced you just reduce all hard fought conditions by 40%.

outstanding…

yeah, wasn’t expecting anything too much more than as described above. Thank you

[WillieTheWimp]

G'Day all,

A redundant here looking to get back into the industry so please excuse my naivety, it's been a couple of years. Does anyone have the new NJS agreement handy? It doesn't appear to be on the FWC site just yet and I'm sure that's the case seeing it has only been voted in. As I'm sure we've all seen NJS has opened up recruitment for B717 FOs and just I'm just trying to gather as much info on the future operation as I can before making decisions. ...not that I have many options down here in sunny old YMML at the moment anyway. Kind thanks in advance to any homo sapiens (PC enough?) that can offer up any useful information on the NJS situation

Just go off the 717 contract. The base pay is the same, but frozen until July 2023. After which it's 2%. Then take out any lifestyle protection and that is what you will end up with. It represents about a 30 percent decrease in terms and conditions from the current contract. To quote the feds 'the proposed EA is so bad, is so concessionary to the extent that many of the concessions may never be won back, that we can only recommend you vote ‘NO’".

If you are not currently flying then it may be worth it just to get current again. Don't come here thinking this is a lifestyle gig, there are much better offers out there for those with experience, and many are leaving. Rosters are interesting, a lot of duty for little flying hours, lots of paxing and waiting around. On the bright side you get to enjoy regular NTL overnights. Probably the only thing going for NJS currently is there's no back of the clock flying but it sounds like the A220 will change that. Hope that helps.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Sounds like a good place to get a free A220 endorsement and then fvck off somewhere that pays for your contribution to the company.

[Theflyingsosijman]

All good thoughts. Got my hands on the new agreement and from what I read you will only be held to one training bond correct? Example, It’s not like they can put you in a 3 year bond for the 717, then, 12 months later you do the a220 and the clock on your 3 years starts all over again. Essentially 4 years. So, two type ratings for 3 years service 🤔

[Check_Thrust]

Did anyone ever work out the cost of making the whole NJS pilot list redundant?

Seemed like a rather idle threat looking from the outside.....

Redundancy payments in the agreement vary depending on length of service but the highest entitlement is 16 weeks so if you use that to calculate the approximate cost to the company it would work out to be about $10.2 million based on the 2025/26 FY payrate which would be about when the last 717 would be phased out, however in reality not every pilot would be entitled to 16 weeks.

If the company did elect to wind down NJS it is unlikely that every pilot would hang around to the end to obtain a redundancy payment instead move on at the first available opportunity which in turn would reduce the cost burden to the company.

All in all, the amount mentioned above would probably be seen by some IR people as worth spending to be able strike fear into other pilot groups at future negotiations. A certain someone nearly spent twice that amount on a house so he probably wouldn't even blink at signing that expense off to stick it to another group of workers.

[RENURPP]

Regarding redundancy, A 1 yr F/o would receive a little over $2k
For a captain 9 yrs up to and not including 10 years they receive $61 k then 10 years plus 46k in redundancy.
A rough guess the total amount would be closer to $5mil or less

[SHVC]

All this talk about not flying the 320s, from what I’ve heard the variation to SH was voted up at 66%

[Dreadpiraterobert]

Qantas is turning into a giant episode of the series Succession

[Thumb War]

All this talk about not flying the 320s, from what I’ve heard the variation to SH was voted up at 66%

I heard 80%

[Angle of Attack]

It was 80%, can’t wait until it arrives as I’ll get at least 10-20% better take home pay, regardless of what everyone thinks. The last thing I want is ping pong between SYD and MEL only getting stick hours while I can cruise for 8 hours hassle free and triple my DTA.

[Aussie Fo]

20$ is that the next trance of aircraft come with the proviso of two years Pay freeze and 2% for the life of the 5 year EBA.

Somthing similar for long haul.

These guys are ethical low life’s after two years of stand down!
Primarily Alan.

And management who refuse to support THEIR staff.

’Alan’ loves to preach about gay rights, provide fairness to females, but when it comes to paying staff a wage that maintains increasing life and social expenses it’s all out the window for a shameful comparative approach at all expense.

[Fonz121]

A two year pay freeze at the next LH EBA is the hill I will die on while inflation is what it is. I don't care what they threaten.

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

A two year pay freeze at the next LH EBA is the hill I will die on while inflation is what it is. I don't care what they threaten.
Even with the $5000 bribe?

Threats and bribery. Disgusting.

[Fonz121]

Even with the $5000 bribe?

Threats and bribery. Disgusting.

There you go, right on cue. Absolutely disgraceful. They can keep their $5000. I’ll take my inflationary pay increase.

For those out of the loop:This gives us the confidence to offer EBA-covered employees a $5,000 recovery boost (https://bit.ly/3A0mKJ4). This is a one-off payment that we hope goes some way to acknowledging the hard work and sacrifice in recent years, and the challenging restart happening now.

The recovery boost will be offered to eligible employees after their new EBA is finalised. There are around 4,000 employees who have already agreed to a new EBA in the current cycle (which includes the two year wage freeze), so they will receive the $5,000 shortly.

[TimmyTee]

Even with the $5000 bribe?

Threats and bribery. Disgusting.

it’s a demonstrably repeated pattern too by Joyce - surprising it’s all above board

[John Citizen]

’Alan’ loves to preach about gay rights, provide fairness to females, but when it comes to paying staff a wage that maintains increasing life and social expenses it’s all out the window for a shameful comparative approach at all expense

Lets not forget how we can all suddenly so easily solve Aboriginal poverty just by simply acknowledging the country after every landing. I never knew it would be so simple.

[Fujiroll76]

A two year pay freeze at the next LH EBA is the hill I will die on while inflation is what it is. I don't care what they threaten.

Anyone want to do the sums on a 2 year wage freeze, over the course of a 20-30 year career.

$5000…shove it

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Anyone want to do the sums on a 2 year wage freeze, over the course of a 20-30 year career.

$5000…shove it

And it’s about the fourth wage freeze the company’s demanded in the last couple of decades, each of which has been followed by handsome profits and tasty bonuses for senior management. On top of a couple of years’ unpaid standdown, rapidly increasing cost of living, and the company’s continuing belligerent, ultimatum-style approach to new aircraft - yep, shove it.

[blubak]

Anyone want to do the sums on a 2 year wage freeze, over the course of a 20-30 year career.

$5000…shove it
Love how he says in recognition of the sacrifices that have been made,bet they account for a lot more than $5k per employee. Of course the exec & management 1 off bonus will never be revealed,the deceit rolls on.

[SHVC]

Is this online with the shares offering or additional?

[blubak]

Is this online with the shares offering or additional?
I believe its additional BUT an eba has to be signed to become eligible which if im correct contains an 18 month(could be 24,not sure) wage freeze.
Not hard to figure out who is making the sacrifices & who is the big beneficiary.

[Blue Ruin]

Rooing the day: Qantas passengers and crew taken for a ride by the board - Michael West (https://michaelwest.com.au/rooing-the-day-qantas-passengers-and-crew-taken-for-a-ride-by-the-board/)

[blubak]

Rooing the day: Qantas passengers and crew taken for a ride by the board - Michael West (https://michaelwest.com.au/rooing-the-day-qantas-passengers-and-crew-taken-for-a-ride-by-the-board/)
Dont think there was ever much doubt about the mates club,this shows even more why little ol AL never gets questioned.

[Ladloy]

Rooing the day: Qantas passengers and crew taken for a ride by the board - Michael West (https://michaelwest.com.au/rooing-the-day-qantas-passengers-and-crew-taken-for-a-ride-by-the-board/)
never thought I'd see Michael West on pprune.

[regitaekilthgiwt]

A two year pay freeze at the next LH EBA is the hill I will die on while inflation is what it is. I don't care what they threaten.

Agree 1000%

[Ollie Onion]

Agree 1000%

Good luck, I hope you are successful.

[thisishomebrand]

Anyone want to do the sums on a 2 year wage freeze, over the course of a 20-30 year career.

$5000…shove it

While I agree the 2 year pay freeze is ridiculous, the 2 year pay freeze is a relatively smaller loss over longer periods of time, i.e. 20-30 year career, than the lost income as a result of 2% annual increases (previously 3%). For individuals with a shorter timeframes however, the wage freeze will will be much more costly.

[ExtraShot]

While I agree the 2 year pay freeze is ridiculous, the 2 year pay freeze is a relatively smaller loss over longer periods of time, i.e. 20-30 year career, than the lost income as a result of 2% annual increases (previously 3%). For individuals with a shorter timeframes however, the wage freeze will will be much more costly.

The two year pay freeze is actually a massive loss over a career. That’s over 6% for those two years based on previous increases, the forgone value of which is compounded every pay increase going forward, forever.

The ongoing two percent is just insulting salt in the wound, repeatedly, every year going forward.

[TimmyTee]

While I agree the 2 year pay freeze is ridiculous, the 2 year pay freeze is a relatively smaller loss over longer periods of time, i.e. 20-30 year career, than the lost income as a result of 2% annual increases (previously 3%). For individuals with a shorter timeframes however, the wage freeze will will be much more costly.

Compounding interest says this is wrong. The longer remaining in your career, the more a wage "freeze" (really a pay cut) impacts you

[thisishomebrand]

The two year pay freeze is actually a massive loss over a career. That’s over 6% for those two years based on previous increases, the forgone value of which is compounded every pay increase going forward, forever.

The ongoing two percent is just insulting salt in the wound, repeatedly, every year going forward.

I was trying to say that while the freeze is costly, the cost of 1% lower salary increases dwarfs that two years of zero, particularly over the longer term.

[ExtraShot]

I was trying to say that while the freeze is costly, the cost of 1% lower salary increases dwarfs that two years of zero, particularly over the longer term.


I see what you’re saying, but don’t forget the two years of zero increase is there, baked in, forever. It’s compounded every year that you ‘might’ get a pay increase forever, increasing the amount you’re not getting anymore.

Do the maths on that two year pay freeze compounded at the company’s desired 2% annually for a decade, or more! Eye watering.
Then add the ongoing losses of the 1% annually that the company doesn’t think you’re worth.

And don’t get me wrong, 2% is a joke as well. Especially at current rates of inflation.

[noclue]

The inflation rate has only been above 3% 3 times in the last 20yrs.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/819x553/2fdf8fe4_2e0a_433c_a8fe_ede42a27a184_beea71fd564f165f458a4bc 48f69f1ad67f80969.jpeg

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AUS/australia/inflation-rate-cpi

[tossbag]

Too late now.

[TimmyTee]

The inflation rate has only been above 3% 3 times in the last 20yrs.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/819x553/2fdf8fe4_2e0a_433c_a8fe_ede42a27a184_beea71fd564f165f458a4bc 48f69f1ad67f80969.jpeg

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AUS/australia/inflation-rate-cpi

putting aside the flawed logic of comparing wages to inflation rate as opposed to cost of living, the above resulted in an average inflation rate of about 2.7%
- which group of pilots in Australia has achieved that year on year? (And due to compounding factor, for every year it wasn’t achieved ie “group wage freezes” etc, the following year would have required a slightly higher wage rise to offset that loss)

[SHVC]

Why do we have to accept a 2 yr pay freeze! No other industry that I can find is imposing such draconian measures on their employees. 2% and 2yrs is just a number AJ thought of whilst sitting on the can one morning. There is still one group left to sign off, actually even to start negotiations.

[Ollie Onion]

You don’t have to accept it. Fact is though most know that they will be taking it one way or another as Alan has played a blinder by splitting the workers up into so many competing entities that they can play off against each other.

[neville_nobody]

The inflation rate has only been above 3% 3 times in the last 20yrs

Except that is looking backwards and it sure ain’t going to be 3% end of next FY.

[dr dre]

Both EBAs don’t expire for another 12-18 months, and then negotiations usually take a year, so finalised deals won’t be voted on for another 2-3 years. A different environment will exist then.

Plus a smart negotiating team can technically comply with a wage freeze policy but find smart ways to reach a deal the pilot group can find palatable. Just requires some time.

[kiwi grey]

And you're only looking back 20 years.
If you go back to the 1970s & 1980s, inflation was much, much higher than recently

[Hawk Circle]

Plus a smart negotiating team can technically comply with a wage freeze policy but find smart ways to reach a deal the pilot group can find palatable. Just requires some time.
Meanwhile in 2022:
United (Mainline) Pilots get 14.5% pay raise - Business Insider
American Airlines (Mainline) Pilots offered nearly 17% pay raise - CNBC

[Pedalz]

CPI dosen't take into account the sky rocketing real estate market (existing dwellings) either... take a look at 1900-1980 vs 2000-2020 for the J curve. And the shortage of rentals for the younger ones near most bases is becoming an issue.

[Thumb War]

Meanwhile in 2022:
United (Mainline) Pilots get 14.5% pay raise - Business Insider
American Airlines (Mainline) Pilots offered nearly 17% pay raise - CNBC


I hear the United union aren’t pleased with 14.5% in light of the better offer made to AA

[SHVC]

QF and group better pick their act up quick smart otherwise there will be no punters left to fly on them. Pi$$ing so many ppl off each day the latest, knowingly departing Sydney for Wellington then diverting to Christchurch because of curfew. Telling lax to grab a couch and get comfy. Hope AJ holiday is most excellent.

Not hearing such from VA pax must be running smoothly there.

[dr dre]

Not hearing such from VA pax must be running smoothly there.

BITRE on time departure data for May had VA group at 64% OTP vs QF group at 61.5%. Not ideal and should be doing better but VA had a similar fall in OTP compare to QF.

Photos from Sydney T2 (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10975399/amp/Qantas-Jetstar-Virgin-chaos-delays-Australias-Sydney-Melbourne-Brisbane-airports.html), pretty chaotic and it mostly seems to be at the VA check in. A quick perusal of the VA FB page shows lots of angry comments regarding flight delays, cancellations, baggage issues, call centre wait times, overbooking etc.

And a perusal of news sites shows cancellations and delays all across the northern hemisphere this summer. This isn’t making any excuses for what’s happening atm, I think all airlines need to do better, but it’s not a problem confined to just one airline in one country.

I remember in 2011 everyone was saying that would be the end of QF too, everyone would flock to VA. What ended up happening?

[JoeTripodi]

Not only the punters are leaving Qantas, there is currently a max exodus of pilots from the group headed to the USA.

[Thumb War]

Not only the punters are leaving Qantas, there is currently a max exodus of pilots from the group headed to the USA.

They should all be applauded. Employees voting with their feet is the only thing that makes airline management think about coughing up a few more dollars

[gordonfvckingramsay]

They should all be applauded. Employees voting with their feet is the only thing that makes airline management think about coughing up a few more dollars

A few more dollars? When companies like Atlas are throwing numbers around that would give AJ heartburn, it’s clear that there will need to be HUUUUGE incentives.

[tossbag]

Huge numbers leaving? Really?

[C441]

Not only the punters are leaving Qantas, there is currently a max exodus of pilots from the group headed to the USA.
Would I be right in guessing that's mainly from non-mainline group entities with a few less-senior S/O's from Longhaul?

I believe most US operators wont take an ex-Qantas group pilot unless they resign; that is not acceptable if on LWOP.

[dr dre]

Would I be right in guessing that's mainly from non-mainline group entities with a few less-senior S/O's from Longhaul?

I believe most US operators wont take an ex-Qantas group pilot unless they resign; that is not acceptable if on LWOP.

I haven’t heard of a single current mainline pilot resigning to go to a US regional (legacy carriers only on offer for those with green cards). Even if there were it would be a single digit number only.

I suspect a few who took VR may have taken up a contract to fly for Atlas for a couple of years, but only after a VR package, and pretty much everyone who took VR had less than 5 years to go to retirement anyway. There’s certainly no “exodus”.

[Thumb War]

Know of 1 mainline S/O currently going through the process. I think as said by a previous poster it would more likely be from other group companies.

[LostWanderer]

Know of 1 mainline S/O currently going through the process. I think as said by a previous poster it would more likely be from other group companies.

Have heard from buddies over there now that there are indeed a number of QF S/Os jumping from the rat to a few different US regionals, I guess they like to actually fly airplanes. Wouldn't be shocked if a bunch of expats are bouncing back to oz as well though.

[Vindiesel]

Have heard from buddies over there now that there are indeed a number of QF S/Os jumping from the rat to a few different US regionals, I guess they like to actually fly airplanes. Wouldn't be shocked if a bunch of expats are bouncing back to oz as well though.

If they want to "actually fly airlplaes" then it's a very quick path to becoming a 737 F/O in mainline and able to make ~180-200k on comfortable hours. Seems a lot better than flogging around for a second tier US carrier.

[stillcallozhome]

If they want to "actually fly airlplaes" then it's a very quick path to becoming a 737 F/O in mainline and able to make ~180-200k on comfortable hours. Seems a lot better than flogging around for a second tier US carrier.

Nope. They’ll make more at the regionals over there and have better conditions than Qf 737. Cancellation pay - you’re paid a minimum of what your initial roster is published at. Duty and trip rigs. Four hotels a month if you commute. Bonuses. Better flying. More destinations. Far better atc and procedures. List goes on….

But this is probably more appropriate on the thread for US regionals.

[SIDS N STARS]

A220/B717 CPT @ DL on $350K/AUD... maybe $100K more than what QF will pay NJS?? Multiplied by X number of years... that's a lot of beer

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/delta_air_lines#

[stillcallozhome]

A220/B717 CPT @ DL on $350K/AUD... maybe $100K more than what QF will pay NJS?? Multiplied by X number of years... that's a lot of beer

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/delta_air_lines#

Not really applicable as that’s a legacy and won’t take E3 applicants. Speaking more to the regionals that are offering over $150p/h for 1st year FO with huge bonuses up to 60k on top. I believe these were introduced with an August 2024 expiry so would suit well to go for a brief period. Regionals over there are rarely career destinations anymore. More a stepping stone to legacy or fedex/ups etc.

[bazza stub]

A220/B717 CPT @ DL on $350K/AUD... maybe $100K more than what QF will pay NJS?? Multiplied by X number of years... that's a lot of beer

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/delta_air_lines#


I believe the data on the NJS salary is incorrect. NJS pilots are not on $100k less than $350k. They don’t even crack $200k

[dr dre]

Nope. They’ll make more at the regionals over there and have better conditions than Qf 737. Cancellation pay - you’re paid a minimum of what your initial roster is published at. Duty and trip rigs. Four hotels a month if you commute. Bonuses. Better flying. More destinations. Far better atc and procedures. List goes on….

But this is probably more appropriate on the thread for US regionals.

Well most of that is subjective opinion, but there’s a new form of cancellation pay in SH. Not you’re for hour, but even if you lose time on the SH EBA you get priority in open time, and can easily increase hours over initial roster. It isn’t that difficult and usually end up with more hours. The award works well if you know how to use it. Can also work for flexibility too.

Bonuses whenever management reward themselves which is frequently, out to 9%.

On raw pay Envoy seems to have the best deal (https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional/envoy_air), standard hours of $146/hr for a new Captain (not F/O as was stated previously) at most US regionals. At standard hours for Envoy (72 per roster) and the 10 year average AUD/USD exchange rate that’s $180k AUD. However that’s their rates until August 2024 only, so any new Captain joint now would be on less by the time they hit 4 bars.

Compared to mainline SH FO in 2024 on 3rd year pay would be on $206k at the same hours as Envoy.

Bonuses in both US regionals and SH probably even out at the end of the day.

But that’s it for those who went to a US regional, whereas do 4 years SH and then LH and more pay/time off is open for those in mainline.

Now while there’s some whom the US lifestyle will appeal to the majority of Australians training to be pilots will have a career in Australia. There’s always been more money available for Aussie expats overseas since forever, but the majority of pilots elect to remain in their home country.

If they want to "actually fly airlplaes" then it's a very quick path to becoming a 737 F/O in mainline and able to make ~180-200k on comfortable hours. Seems a lot better than flogging around for a second tier US carrier.

At the moment people the complaints are “too much flying”. Shortages mean some crew flying 20-30% over rostered hours. Some skippers will probably make close to $400k this FY

[aseriesofleftturns]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1170x844/216a2916_cb1f_405c_a09b_0eefa208ccbd_f1ee7917a438aaa3ac139a6 57e9fcaca63cbc876.jpeg

[ZebraFlyer]

Not really applicable as that’s a legacy and won’t take E3 applicants. Speaking more to the regionals that are offering over $150p/h for 1st year FO with huge bonuses up to 60k on top. I believe these were introduced with an August 2024 expiry so would suit well to go for a brief period. Regionals over there are rarely career destinations anymore. More a stepping stone to legacy or fedex/ups etc.

If you happen to know, which are the highest paying regionals at the moment? Looks like a good way to get the FAA ATP to start with if they're paying that well, spend a couple of years then consider other E3 options.

[ThunderstormFactory]

If you happen to know, which are the highest paying regionals at the moment? Looks like a good way to get the FAA ATP to start with if they're paying that well, spend a couple of years then consider other E3 options.

Envoy, Piedmont, and PSA. The three wholly owned regionals of American Airlines. Piedmont and PSA currently accepting Aussies on e3s.

[ZebraFlyer]

Envoy, Piedmont, and PSA. The three wholly owned regionals of American Airlines. Piedmont and PSA currently accepting Aussies on e3s.

Thanks for the reply, I figured it was the AA wholly owned! I found this which was pretty handy for comparing the regional first year pay scales, may be of use to others: https://atpflightschool.com/become-a-pilot/airline-career/regional-airline-pilot-pay.html

Also as far as I can tell out of those Piedmont isn't doing E3's anymore, just PSA. https://piedmont-airlines.com/pilots/piedmont-airlines-elevate-pilot-careers/paths-to-the-flight-deck-faqs/

Also also to everyone else - yes sorry probably should be on the US Visa thread. For info am a group pilot, though..

[stillcallozhome]

Well most of that is subjective opinion, but there’s a new form of cancellation pay in SH. Not you’re for hour, but even if you lose time on the SH EBA you get priority in open time, and can easily increase hours over initial roster. It isn’t that difficult and usually end up with more hours. The award works well if you know how to use it. Can also work for flexibility too.

Bonuses whenever management reward themselves which is frequently, out to 9%.

On raw pay Envoy seems to have the best deal (https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional/envoy_air), standard hours of $146/hr for a new Captain (not F/O as was stated previously) at most US regionals. At standard hours for Envoy (72 per roster) and the 10 year average AUD/USD exchange rate that’s $180k AUD. However that’s their rates until August 2024 only, so any new Captain joint now would be on less by the time they hit 4 bars.

Compared to mainline SH FO in 2024 on 3rd year pay would be on $206k at the same hours as Envoy.

Bonuses in both US regionals and SH probably even out at the end of the day.

But that’s it for those who went to a US regional, whereas do 4 years SH and then LH and more pay/time off is open for those in mainline.

Now while there’s some whom the US lifestyle will appeal to the majority of Australians training to be pilots will have a career in Australia. There’s always been more money available for Aussie expats overseas since forever, but the majority of pilots elect to remain in their home country.



At the moment people the complaints are “too much flying”. Shortages mean some crew flying 20-30% over rostered hours. Some skippers will probably make close to $400k this FY

Not really sure how most is subjective but some of the comments on atc etc are.

I think the cancellation pay I speak of is very different to yours. Anything gets cancelled for weather, maintenance, etc, you get paid. You don’t then have to then go and make part of it up. Should you choose to fly more, that’s on top. Also, if you hold for an hour, then get in and your block time is 3 hours rather than 1.5, you get the higher amount.

In regards to your time for ‘4 bars’ that’s 1000 hours in the right seat which you’ll have in a little over a year. However, once you reach 750 hours, you’ll also be paid Captain pay.

Bonuses are 15k until 950 hours then you get 30k. Then upgrade and get 40k. This can all be achieved in 18 months.

There are also duty rigs which I’m not going to though on here. Reading APC can give you some numbers but it’s hard to get a true understanding of what it all means and how it works especially tying into where you live. Best to talk to someone that’s doing it for those that are interested which doesn’t seem to be you Dre. What works for some, may not work for others but without a firm grasp of it, may be best to ask rather than tell. 👍

[Hawk Circle]

I hear the United union aren’t pleased with 14.5% in light of the better offer made to AA
Meanwhile (still) in 2022:
American Airlines says it will hike pay for 14,000 pilots even higher than originally proposed, as the industry faces a crippling labor shortage - Business Insider

"Our team will be paid well and be paid competitively. You are not going to fall behind network peers," CEO Robert Isom told pilots in a video message sent Monday, seen by CNBC.
Isom described a pre-pandemic proposal made to unions — of an initial 4% increase, followed by a 3% increase annually — as "industry-leading at the time." However, "the standard for compensation has gone up" as a result of the pandemic, he said, per CNBC.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1050x1172/d1c6afe8_252c_4cfa_b8d1_de9b57014c9e_ac1311b133d2b308526e7c5 b1a1dbd72457128be.jpeg

[ExtraShot]

Again I’m not certain how quoting US rates and contracts is relevant?

I’ve said it elsewhere, and I’ll repeat, the US has;

- the 1500hr rule

- most if not all contracts have scope clauses

-government, policy, advocacy, and industry that values and nurtures Aviation and it’s associated industries

- and the US tends to protect their local labor by having a far more restrictive and measured immigration/skilled migrant programs that the relative free for all here.


Australia has none of of these things, and to add to that, CEOs can simply lock out employees/shut down a company if they don’t get their way industrially. This makes it almost impossible to achieve the kind of gains that US pilots are getting. Improvement is possible, but it tends to be far more incremental and usually limited in what can be achieved with each round of negotiation.

Most Qantas pilots are entrenched in the seniority system for well over a decade, they have husbands/ wives, families, own homes AND are on a pretty good wicket compared to many of their friends inside and outside aviation. There aren’t too many of them that would up and leave to the US (requiring resignation, mind you, not just leave without pay), unless it was straight into a Major (which isn’t happening), so the comparison is pointless.

Outside of the US I can think of no value proposition that beats QF mainline. Show me (oh and MY WIFE!) otherwise.

[airdualbleedfault]

Maybe before you go to the USA with stars/$$ in your eyes, do a bit of research on where the US economy is headed, down the toilet. Those brilliant minds in government and the Fed have printed so much money inflation is approaching double figures and some "experts" are saying that a recession is almost a certainty and they're even talking depression. I'll leave it to you to work out what happens to expats when the economy is in the toilet. Hopefully, for everyone's sakes the "experts" are wrong and you can enjoy living in a country with close to the worst rate of gun related homicides in the world.

[Ollie Onion]

So go to the USA, doesn’t take a genius to know $250k per year for a Dash 8 Skipper is not sustainable. Good luck when the economy tanks and you join the furlough ranks.

[JoeTripodi]

Better stay in Australia and take a pay cut and give up all your conditions just to be safe.

[Ollie Onion]

Quite the opposite, I am literally saying to go and take advantage of these amazing contracts. I spent many years flying overseas for some pretty big airlines and it was great, the money was better and the opportunities were better. What NONE of them could offer me was a job at home. Australian and New Zealand airlines know there is a premium that pilots put on flying for a home based airline especially the flag carrier. I am also warning you that these types of contracts won't last, yes you can get stood down in Australia but at no where near the frequency of the furloughs common in the USA. Qantas will NEVER offer 14% pay rises as they are working from a position of an oversupply of people who want to fly for them, why else do you get highly experienced Captains from other overseas airlines returning to Oz to fly as an SO for Qantas? If Qantas runs out of 'locals' willing to fly for them, do you think they would have any trouble attracting overseas talent?

[BO0M]

Never seen such dribble on both sides of a thread drift argument.................If you want to go to the US, Asia, Europe or wherever then weigh it up and do it. If you want to stay living in Australia then weigh up those considerations and do it. Who really cares about what a bunch of Pprune posts say (this post included).

[tossbag]

So go to the USA, doesn’t take a genius to know $250k per year for a Dash 8 Skipper is not sustainable. Good luck when the economy tanks and you join the furlough ranks.

Better stay in Australia and take a pay cut and give up all your conditions just to be safe.

Says it all really :D

[Jack D. Ripper]

Never seen such dribble on both sides of a thread drift argument.................If you want to go to the US, Asia, Europe or wherever then weigh it up and do it. If you want to stay living in Australia then weigh up those considerations and do it. Who really cares about what a bunch of Pprune posts say (this post included).

Gold!

If you don’t think the grass is greener in the US, then put up and shut up in Aus. If you do then great, go.

Either way, just stop whinging.

[Hollywood1]

The A321 XLR has just completed am 11 hour proving flight. https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/a321xlr-route-proving/

Who gets to fly the XLRs first? Qantas or Jetstar?

[aussieflyboy]

The A321 XLR has just completed am 11 hour proving flight. https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/a321xlr-route-proving/

Who gets to fly the XLRs first? Qantas or Jetstar?

NJS, EFA or Network Aviation if you believe Qantas middle management.