Delay due to Operational Reasons [Archive]

DaveReidUK

14th Dec 2021, 11:41

Quite often gate staff don't know much more than the pax. They can only pass on what they are told, which is often not all that much. Don't blame gate staff but blame those further up the chain. Then again, such as the length of the delay, that cannot always be determined. If there's a tech issue it may depend on multiple factors. Just as one example, assuming the problem has been identified and the part is available, a repair might only take 10 minutes but sourcing an engineer (or engineers) during a busy period may take much longer. Yes, it's all very frustrating for us, the pax, but just as frustrating for the gate staff and the crew.

If you're somewhere down the line (as opposed to one of the relevant airline's bases) then it's often easy to work out from FR24 whether it's a delay to the inbound flight (and if so, how long it's likely to be).

That may already put you in possession of more information than the gate staff have been given.

speedrestriction

14th Dec 2021, 12:25

The company I work for have a rather enlightened policy of being totally up front as to the reasons for a delay and this is usually “pushed” via app to the customer.

In my experience, customers are much more understanding the sooner and more completely you give them information. Drip feeding of negative news is the worst situation - I prefer to outline worst case and everything from there is an improvement.

Ultimately I think it is an organisational culture thing whether ground staff, operational staff and HQ communicate well with eachother and with the customer. If the gate staff are having to be cajoled then there is already a problem. It goes without saying that treating all colleagues with respect pays far greater dividends in terms of extracting accurate information than going in like an ill tempered hippopotamus.

redsnail

14th Dec 2021, 12:36

36050100

14th Dec 2021, 12:50

The airline I worked for had software which calculated the cost of delay and/or cancellation of every flight it operated. Sometimes a flight was delayed because they wanted "my" aircraft to cover for another one for which the cost of delay was much more expensive (think missed connections). So the message was, we're delaying you because it's more expensive to delay someone else. Always good fun with those PA's...

I was even once instructed (by the company) to divert, even though I had enough fuel to stay and hold so that "my" landing slot could be used by another company aircraft for which a diversion would have been a much more costly affair. Sir Humphrey would have been proud of that PA.

Piper.Classique

14th Dec 2021, 12:57

I'm actually fairly relaxed about delays. As in, for example, the aircraft needs a de-ice that hasn't been planned, someone needed had called in sick, there is a technical problem. Whatever. I'm in a nice warm terminal (or nice cool terminal) with a book to read. If it goes on a long time then I will probably get a meal and maybe a room.
All of that is a lot better than a crash due to ice on the wings, an exhausted pilot, an EFATO.. Lets remember no company wants to lose passengers because of poor on time performance. The staff are under stress, and nagging them won't fix thing one. Same applies to buses and trains. Relax.

Uplinker

14th Dec 2021, 13:26

I am sure we have all stopped at the back of a queue of traffic that we cannot see the reason for and waited for a while, thinking oh well, it will move in a minute. I am happy to wait without knowing the reason, but after maybe 5 or 10 mins with no movement, I suddenly go "what the hell is going on"; I sometimes get out of the car to try to see the reason for the hold-up. It might be a lorry reversing into a tight gateway or whatever, and when I can see or know the reason, I relax and accept the delay. (Or turn around and try to find a way around the obstruction).

Problem with a tech aircraft is that even the engineers cannot always predict how long a fault will take to fix. If a wheel or brake pack needs changing, that will be 30 mins or so, (and normally won't delay the flight), but if there is a computer fault or hydraulic fault, say, they won't always know until they are well into fixing it.

In my first career as a (non aircraft) engineer, it was a pain when people kept asking how long something would take to fix, and sometimes you wanted to say "if you stop asking me questions and go away, I will get it done a lot quicker than if you hang around getting in my way and bugging me".

None of which helps the OP. You might be happy to know exactly what has gone wrong, but some might be nervous to know if there is a fault with the flight controls or engine(s), And most will have no clue and be none the wiser if, say, an ELAC or an ADIRS is faulty.

Perhaps passengers should be told what the technical fault is, or it's a de-icing problem, or the baggage truck has just driven into the side of an engine or whatever? I used to apologise on the PA if I did a heavy landing - it's only polite - but it was pointed out to me that some people might try to claim compensation; having been told of a pilot's mistake, so that was quashed.

Sholayo

14th Dec 2021, 14:35

Does knowing the reason for the delay get you to your destination any faster? I prefer to keep quiet and let them get on with their job.

Most of the people including me, are have more patience and understanding if they know what is going on. Besides, I paid for being delivered at specific time to agreed destination. If something does not work it's basic duty of airline to explain why.
Imagine same on the bus or better on a taxi. The driver parks in the middle of the road, sends some text messages here and there and waits staring at the horizon.

&

wiggy

14th Dec 2021, 16:15

Most of the people including me, are have more patience and understanding if they know what is going on. Besides, I paid for being delivered at specific time to agreed destination. If something does not work it's basic duty of airline to explain why.
Imagine same on the bus or better on a taxi. The driver parks in the middle of the road, sends some text messages here and there and waits staring at the horizon.

&

I think as Uplinker points out “You might be happy to know exactly what has gone wrong, but some might be nervous to know if there is a fault with the flight controls”….

It just so happens the last major delay I was involved before I hung up my headset was due to a warning that popped up just before we closed the doors that there was potentially a Flight Control system problem on our trusty fly by wire aircraft….Specialist engineering opinion was that fix might be found by rebooting the entire aircraft, if that failed re-racking the relevant boxes, perhaps using a little force, if that failed….:bored:

Bearing in mind we had over 200 people on board, with a mix of languages, I wasn’t about to go into details (initially at least) with an announcement that the computer system that helped us keep the aircraft right side up had potentially got a glitch…that might have been the honest thing to do but it would probably have guaranteed some movement to the exits….

I think I came up with some BS excuse about a monitoring system not working, and we needed working it to go flying… FWIW that bought us enough time and things calm and in order long enough for the engineer to realise it was a really big snag…so off we all got..

PAXboy

14th Dec 2021, 17:50

Reminds me of a good excuse I heard although, at the time, I did not know it was an excuse.

HKG January 1995 (Kai Tak :ok:) Sitting on a VS A340 (a -300 I think but someone will know) and the flight was full as it was last out before Lunar New Year. Waiting around and flight deck warned of having to power down to reset the entertainment system. "We don't want you to not have your films and music during the long flight" It was extra long at 15.25 hours as we had to divert north almost to Beijing, to get around a cyclone, before turning West.

A couple of years later I learnt of the early computer sync problems on the 340. If, on start up, the 5 computers could not agree that they were all in the same place and on the same line of code - you had no choice but to power down the WHOLE aircraft. A classic, "You have to switch it off, wait a couple of minutes and then on again" :uhoh:

It worked and it was prob best that 99.9% of the pax did not know that there was nothing wrong with the IFE ...

mickjoebill

14th Dec 2021, 21:05

Years ago as a passenger on a BA flight from Kenya to UK I was targeted by crooks who concocted a story our hotel bill had not been paid. This required me to be removed from the aircraft for 30 minutes. When I reboarded, the captain announced that due to our delayed pushback, we had missed our takeoff slot and being last flight of the day, contractors were scheduled to be on the runway so we couldn't taxi without compensating the contractors. Negotiations failed and the 747 edged back to the gate and disgorged it's pissed off cargo into hotels for the night. Thankfully the Captain announced the delay to pushback was due to a "medical emergency" and not connected to me. The skipper was aware that my removal was part of the extortion plan. I was chosen as I had many bags and so couldn't have been quickly booted off the flight. In principle I think flight crew should inform passengers of what is going on. The captain did relay a blow by blow description of the negotiations but wisely decided to fudge the cause of the delayed pushback thus removing me from being the target of any potential aggression from other passengers with whom we shared bus and hotel and re-checkin..

On another occasion, my camera crew were booked on a commuter flight in USA on an ATR. It was delayed as the aircraft had a tech issue with pressurization so it required more fuel to fly at a lower altitude. I was aware of the issue because I had demanded an answer from ground crew as to why our camera cases were being removed from the plane. He explained the tech issue and they had to remove bags as they would be bumping passengers from the flight as they had to take on more fuel. As we were sitting on the bus adjacent the aircraft other passengers who were not aware of the pressurization issue, were watching the cargo hold being emptied and began to blame us for the delay, claiming we had too much baggage and that we should be bumped off the flight! (we were easily identified as camera crew as we hand carry the camera)
Fearing we would be the easy target to be bumped I announced to the bus the reason for the delay and informed them that we had notified informed the airline of the weight of our baggage. When I slowly and clearly stated that there was a *tech issue* with the plane, you could hear a pin drop. Then the fuelling truck had its own tech issue, so it was a pretty uninspiring scene being played out infront of passengers.
When ground crew finally boarded the bus and asked for volunteers to be bumped, a dozen grateful hands shot up, which created enough capacity for us to continue, with our baggage.
This was a case where communications between airline and passengers were not timely.

Mjb

Union Jack

14th Dec 2021, 21:30

If it's a technical issue, it's either a quick fix or it'll take hours/days. The thing is, you don't know until the engineers open up panels etc.
De icing can also create delays down the line. You just don't know when the aircraft will leave, hence the top tip of using FR24 is a good one. :)
Interesting - I was sitting in the BA Lounge at Boston last Wednesday evening, waiting for my flight back to UK after a month in the US and, as Redsnail suggests, watched the incoming flight on FR24 some 30 minutes adrift. After the doors closed on my flight, we pushed back and underwent deicing, allegedly the first flight of the winter to do so hence it perhaps inevitably took longer than expected. However, although we then took off 73 minutes late we arrived at Heathrow nine minutes early with a flight time of only five hours nine minutes after a very bumpy ride and a strong tailwind!

Incidentally, noted both that Rapid PCR Tests are available at Boston Terminal E Arrivals - albeit at $250! - and that the BA Arrivals Lounge at T5 is currently closed following last week's change in the rules.

Jack

jimtherev

14th Dec 2021, 22:00

Most of the people including me, are have more patience and understanding if they know what is going on. Besides, I paid for being delivered at specific time to agreed destination. If something does not work it's basic duty of airline to explain why.

A few years back the notification for our flight LGW - YYR went from 'boarding in 2 minutes' to 'delayed'. A series of new and later etd's were offered and we eventually departed eight hours late.
Turns out that someone doing the pre-flight had noticed a small burnt hole from a lightening strike last night. No panic; send for the engineers who quickly applied the requisite patch. Then the wait for Toulouse to approve the repair, and wait, and wait... Meanwhile the flight planning chappies realised that our crew would be out of hours by about Greenland. No spares in London, but a crew in Glasgow, who arrived, another walk-round and off we went.
There was some muttering, and the purser made a quick pa that the Capt would be on soon. He made a full explanation - much longer that above - and we were all relieved that were on an aircraft with no un-designed holes in it.

S.o.S.

14th Dec 2021, 22:33

Thank you for the great 'war stories' that make fun reading from the comfort of my sofa! I particularly liked the Kenya extortion plan from mickjoebill.

For Union Jack, you probably benefitted from the reduced number of movements at LHR. Friends who have travelled recently mentioned the shorter taxi times outbound and not the usual holding circuits on the way in.

MissChief

14th Dec 2021, 22:42

Why should anyone bar the pilots and engineers need to know exactly why a flight is delayed?

'Tech issues" is a perfectly satisfactory response for cabin crew and ground staff to impart to passengers. Beyond that.....nada.

surely not

15th Dec 2021, 08:22

Don't make the mistake of thinking that the members of this forum are a reflection of the standard passenger. Most, though not all, on here have worked in the industry and have a good understanding of far more than your average passenger, even regular flyers. The most important piece of information you can give passengers on a delayed flight is the new departure time. For the majority of passengers the reason can be as simple as 'a slight tech problem that won't take long to fix' to 'Our engineers will need x minutes/hours to rectify the problem'.
'Operational reasons' is a bit too vague and when possible some fill in information should be provided, but I have known occasions when the full explanation was so long winded that the passengers would probably have fallen asleep by the time you'd finished, and many still wouldn't have understood why there was a delay.
On one flight delayed by weather, heavy snowfall, I was called down to talk to a gentleman wearing a dog collar who was haranguing the check-in staff and demanding to know exactly when the weather was going to clear and the flight depart. All explanations that we could only give estimates based on information received from the Met Office fell on deaf ears. Eventually I took him to one side and very politely asked him if he could perhaps use his connections to the big boss and let us know the answer.
Guesstimating weather delays was always fun, especially when asked 'When will the fog clear'

Jackjones1

15th Dec 2021, 08:55

F/o managed to deploy the rubber jungle on departure on a 747/400 started off with 4 of us re stowing offending items but this was occurring with passengers still onboard .... majority of passengers were ok & were mostly worried is the aircraft safe, exactly what was said about delay don’t really know!

ATNotts

15th Dec 2021, 10:09

clareprop

15th Dec 2021, 11:14

NutLoose

15th Dec 2021, 11:14

I remember a technical issue where the pax could see it being fixed, the VC10 has an engine air start valve that sometimes used to stick due to a little bit of carbon build up.
We were doing a pushback with the pax onboard and the pilot announced he was having a technical issue as they couldn't start No 2 engine, I pushed a safety raiser under the engine, dropped the cowling open, then taking the safety raiser jacking handle gave the valve a little whack, at which point I heard the satisfying sound of the valve motor open, shutting the cowling and stowing the jacking handle, I looked up to see all the passenger faces glued to the windows ( RAF rearward facing seats) who had been watching me beating the engine with a jacking handle. Shortly afterwards the captain announced the technical issue had been rectified and they were pushed back,

:E

Hotel Tango

15th Dec 2021, 11:23

:) Ah yes, I remember a time when ATC delays were common enough that they became the standard and convenient excuse for delays whatever the real reason was. One crew got caught out when I was on board. Quick call to my mates at Flow who confirmed (as I had suspected) that the flight I was on was not subject to any restrictions! I had a friendly chat to the FD afterwards and they admitted that it was a convenient way of taking pressure off the company for tech or operational issues. Pax just muttered "ATC again" :):)

nonsense

15th Dec 2021, 11:30

I remember ... then taking the safety raiser jacking handle gave the valve a little whack... :E

The technical term is "percussive maintenance".
Flight delayed due to the need for a little percussive maintenance...

Bergerie1

15th Dec 2021, 11:32

When I was flying 747s, we had a hard to fix technical problem in New York which was dragging on and on. The ground staff told me the passengers in the terminal were getting restive so I decided, as captain, to put on my cap and go into the wating area to explain. I picked up the PA and said, something to the effect that none of us knew exactly what the problem was but we were doing our damndest to fix it as quickly as possible. I didn't know how long it would take but we would ensure that everything was safe before we left for London. It was surprising how well this was received!

Davef68

15th Dec 2021, 11:53

If you're somewhere down the line (as opposed to one of the relevant airline's bases) then it's often easy to work out from FR24 whether it's a delay to the inbound flight (and if so, how long it's likely to be).

That may already put you in possession of more information than the gate staff have been given.

I've often found the company website or App gives far more information than the airport information boards or gate staff. In fact, I'm quite sure that airports hold back the information from customers, as I've often known of a delay several hours ahead, but the departure boards show 'Boarding at.......'.

Alsacienne

15th Dec 2021, 12:05

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post (https://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf-self-loading-freight/644202-delay-due-operational-reasons.html#post11155802)
If you're somewhere down the line (as opposed to one of the relevant airline's bases) then it's often easy to work out from FR24 whether it's a delay to the inbound flight (and if so, how long it's likely to be).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davef68
That may already put you in possession of more information than the gate staff have been given.
I've often found the company website or App gives far more information than the airport information boards or gate staff. In fact, I'm quite sure that airports hold back the information from customers, as I've often known of a delay several hours ahead, but the departure boards show 'Boarding at.......'.

I am definitely of the opinion that passengers can be usefully kept in the dark ... after all, how often has one checked in for an 'on-time departure' to discover once having fought one's way through security and into the pre-boarding area (whatever title it enjoys!) to discover that your flight will be delayed ... or even worse ... 'wait in lounge' whilst all the flights below yours show gate information and eventually disappear from the information screens!

If I know that my flight is a 'return sector', I tend to log onto the Departures section of the outgoing airport to see if 'my flight' has left or if it too is showing a delay. Sometimes even looking at the Arrivals section of the airport I'm in can give me a clue as to the real status of 'my' aircraft. Flightradar24 and FlightAware can also be useful sources of information that your local staff cannot or would prefer not to share with you!

Hotel Tango

15th Dec 2021, 12:25

I do that too Alsacienne, however, the inbound flight can be on time but develop a snag en route which will need fixing prior to your departure.

barry lloyd

15th Dec 2021, 12:39

I recall that there used to be three reasons for delays:-

Operational reasons
Technical reasons
Air traffic control reasons

There are 100: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IATA_delay_codes

In my experience, having worked in ops at four different airports in the UK, less is more. If you start to engage pax in a conversation with a specific delay reason, it simply leads to yet more questions, with the questioner believing that he knows better than you how an airline is run. I once explained to a pax that a delay was owing to the autopilot being u/s.
'Well don't they have a spare one on site?'
'No they're bringing one from another base'
'How long is that going to take?' (It was being flown in).
Then, 'How long will it take to fit it?'
'Will they have to flight test it after it has been fitted?' (Thus, in the mind of the passenger, delaying the departure even more).
'No.' He clearly was about to ask further questions, but at this point, fortunately, a call came over the radio to go and deal with something else. but I learnt never again to engage pax in a detailed conversation about delays.
.

Hot 'n' High

15th Dec 2021, 14:04

I delayed a flt once due to thick fog at the destination which would eventually clear later in the morning but no point in flying the hold and then diverting back as it would take ages to clear. Much better to sit on the ground, have a proper breakfast and then, when the destination starts to clear, head off. I personally briefed the Pax in the Departure Lounge but, as I did, another Companies aircraft taxied out to the same destination. A rather irate businessman accosted me in front of everyone and loudly demanded that, if they were going, why weren't we? In the end I said (politely but firmly in front of the now, audience) that, if he wished to Charter the aircraft privately, I'd happily take him to see the fog and that, no, we were going nowhere until I, as Capt, was happy. Much grumping from said businessman!

Anyway, after quite a while, things finally started to brighten up at the destination so back to let the Pax know the good news. As I did so the other aircraft reappeared. Businessman once again loudly pointed out the fact that they had gone and were now back - so I explained to all the Pax that the aircraft was simply returning for more fuel (and a Pax leg stretch!) having flown round and round and round in circles over the destination for about an hour and that the same Pax were still on that aircraft. Off we went and, sure enough, as we approached the fog lifted and in we went off the first approach. As the businessman de-planed he stopped and sheepishly apologised and said that my suggestion that we stayed on the ground was, by far, the more civilised one and that he'd "listen to the experts in the future!". Seemed he'd even phoned the other Airline to verify my story of them not getting in! :p

Bergerie1

15th Dec 2021, 14:39

Hot 'n' High, How very satisfying!!!!

Davef68

15th Dec 2021, 15:36

I
If I know that my flight is a 'return sector', I tend to log onto the Departures section of the outgoing airport to see if 'my flight' has left or if it too is showing a delay. Sometimes even looking at the Arrivals section of the airport I'm in can give me a clue as to the real status of 'my' aircraft. Flightradar24 and FlightAware can also be useful sources of information that your local staff cannot or would prefer not to share with you!

The Easyjet App shows you the FR24 data, I'm reminded of the time, when waiting at Bristol for a delayed flight, I followed the inbound progress on the App. There were high side winds at BRS that night, and I watched as it did an approach, then abandoned the landing and tootled off to Gatwick!

DaveReidUK

15th Dec 2021, 15:43

I recall that there used to be three reasons for delays:-

Operational reasons
Technical reasons
Air traffic control reasons

In my time, there were only two:

a) those that were blamed on us in Engineering; and
b) everything else

:O

Denti

15th Dec 2021, 17:58

It is quite easy being based in BER: simply blame everything on the airport, and everybody believes it... ;)

Hartington

15th Dec 2021, 18:10

I think one of the best explanations I ever had was not for a delay. A very firm landing at O'Hare followed by heavy braking. The captain then told us that the plane in front for landing had been a Chinese 747 and he thought we might like to get into the international terminal before them. I couldn't argue with that! True or not I think the whole plane was smiling.

Musket90

15th Dec 2021, 18:46

I once experienced a delay at Gatwick. Flight STD 3pm, info screens say go to gate xx which was right at the end of pier 4 (near the wavy wall) so a long way but partly using moving walkways. Looked out of gateroom window to see a couple of booked airline's aircraft but with no activity going on. Last call had been announced by gate staff. By 2.45pm some fellow pax started to enquire with gate staff if flight was delayed as no boarding announcement had been made. About 10mins later staff announced there was a delay but it shouldn't be long as the the crew allocated for the flight were transferring from another inbound flight. After about another 15mins a general announcement was made for all pax to return to the departure lounge. Moving walkways were moving the other direction so a very long walk. At departure lounge the flight details were missing from the info screen. They appeared again after about 10mins showing go to gate xx (different from before). I was told afterwards that when a flight is displayed as last call it automatically disappears from the info screen after a certain time period. Went to new gate and gate staff started boarding process soon after. Got on bus and then to aircraft but driver didn't open the bus doors as he was checking situation with dispatcher. It was obvious there was no crew on the aircraft. It was a very warm day and driver reluctantly opened the bus doors but we had to remain on the bus until the crew turned up. They eventually did and after carrying out their pre-boarding aircraft checks allowed us to board. Once all on the aircraft the captain announced that they were a standby crew who were called to do the flight as the airline had experienced some aircraft tech problems during the day. He also said don't be angry with the crew.

Clearly the ground handlers had no idea as to the cause of the delay but were only interested in getting the pax to gate on time. As for the airline operations team, they must have had some idea but were maybe struggling to find a crew to do the flight, so were not able to provide the ground handlers with accurate information.

NutLoose

15th Dec 2021, 19:30

We did a pushback and I was on the long lead, as we disconnected the tow bar from the tug we found the pin had frozen in the other end, explaining over the intercom to the pilot we were having trouble getting the tow bar off, I heard him relay to the passengers that they were experiencing technical problems.
One of the guys took tow hitch pin out of the front of the tug and began to carry out some "percussive maintenance" on the said frozen pin, over the intercom you could hear the dong..dong..dong echoing through the cabin like some bell tolling a death knell, suddenly the pin shifted and we got the bar off, calmly the pilot goes back on the cabin announcement and informs the passengers as you can probably tell the engineers have rectified the problems..

:E

S.o.S.

15th Dec 2021, 20:24

NutLoose That is a GREAT story and certainly made me laugh out loud. Thank you.

arf23

16th Dec 2021, 09:00

At MAN in a week of snow our Easyjet flight to Malta was cancelled due to "adverse weather" and as such not eligible for EU compo.

Luckily I had a screenshot of the departure board showing two other flight leaving at the same to Malta get away quite successfully! And yes I got the compo before it got to Court.

blind pew

16th Dec 2021, 13:31

You were lucky as my son was flying to Istanbul from LHR with his wife and 4 year old on the mid day service for a long weekend. There were strong winds at Gatwick with diversions but just as they were about to board BA decided they would use the aircraft and crew for another service and cancelled it. They eventually put them on an evening flight but refused to sit them together; as for compensation they claimed it was weather related which it wasn’t.
In my early days as a second officer we were encouraged to talk to the pax on long short haul flights when P3. Then the IRA started putting bombs on our aircraft which of course you didn’t tell the pax why you were depressurising and diving back into london. They obviously smelt a rat when we were parked up by the sewage works, surrounded with flashing lights and no one would push a set of air stairs up to the aircraft for half an hour. Of course we were never told the truth although one of the skippers had the chief bomb disposal officer from Northern Ireland in the cockpit who did. The files on a specific incident have been reclassified from 40 years out of the public domain to something probably beyond my life expectancy. There were incidents with cabin crew bars including with my then fiancé of 21 who got of the full aircraft as the bar seal numbers did not correspond with those which had been security checked. The skipper went ballistic but after she had been assaulted by one I had told her don’t take the Sh%t. It is well known that the services had a very high up mole in the IRA which probably saved many lives.
My final Airline was totally different; we checked in early and had full access to the security files; After a brief check of our documentation we met the cabin crew and briefed them before finishing our flight planning then it was off to the aircraft as a whole crew. I would go up to the gate and introduce myself, talk to a few pax, cockpit checks then greet the pax boarding. PA was in three languages on all flights. If there was a problem generally the truth or close to the truth was revealed.
After engine shut down it was full uniform including titfer in the cockpit door saying goodbye..company policy.
After premature retirement and 9/11 I witnessed some good and bad stuff;
Our Irish airline; open door with early boarding in Marseilles..everyone welcome, good chat and a great landing followed by captain saying Ta. Another flight incredibly well turned out captain both greeting and saying Ta after another greaser. And some scruffy bloke with a miserable face and untrimmed beard who did not say a word at anytime in spite of a very long delay. The landing was another demonstration of incompetence.
My old employer had another lot of poor show which started with an incompetent gate staff who queued passengers across the escalator and ignored the hazard; announced a substantial delay then decided to get us on board the 747 (which had paint pealing off the red tail cone) asap. Then some fool announced “this is your senior first officer speaking..blah blah blah ..and I’ve just discovered a large dent in the side of the fuselage and we are waiting for an engineer to inspect it”. Who knows what a SFO is? We all know he is speaking. And the conclusion that one of the employees has smashed into the side of the aircraft and is stupid enough not to report it speaks volumes for the safety culture. ‘Twas the same in my day. Needless to say we went before anyone could have possibly examined the inside of the structure and no doubt the skipper boll@caked the SFO as he said no more.
The return flight wasn’t much better with one coach to unload a 777 and uncovered air stairs in drizzle…no flight crew to be seen.

dukiematic

16th Dec 2021, 16:26

davidjohnson6

16th Dec 2021, 17:17

Yes, we all know and love/hate the "operational reasons" excuse for anything
Sometimes, it's cover for "I do not know" while other times it means "I do not want to tell you"
Has anybody found an effective way of cajoling info out of gate staff to get some idea as to what is the true cause of a delay ?

Hi all

Could I gently nudge this thread back towards my original question, namely how pax can get better info when something goes wrong besides the cliché of "operational reasons" ?
Many of you have your own war stories, but some people have less time than others to read everything, and maybe best if everyone tries to stick to the subject of the thread ? On a radio, everyone likes a strong signal:noise ratio.
It's certainly possible to have a general war-story discussion... but maybe best to have its own separate thread

DaveReidUK

16th Dec 2021, 17:31

Well there have been several posts (mine included) about using FR24 to give you a sporting chance of finding out whether there actually is an aircraft in a position to operate your flight.

If there isn't, then that tells you all you need to know.

If there is an aircraft sitting at your gate, then a delay is more than likely either a crewing issue or a technical problem. If you can see the activity (if any) around the aircraft, then that's a good clue that they are trying to fix something.

Sorry if you haven't found those posts helpful.

blind pew

16th Dec 2021, 18:35

Basically you can’t unless you know someone in dispatch....the dispatchers are the conduit for all of the information. You can get the odd bits like when we were stuck in Charleroi with heavy snow in Dublin and one of the pax had a mate sitting on the outbound aircraft waiting for de ice..
It helped and contrary to what I expected on the second day the airport staff at Charleroi kept the airport open until half an hour after official closing so that we wouldn’t have a second night in the local hotel. Ryanair were fantastic and we didn’t have to run the gauntlet again of two woman with large skirts robbing some of the passengers whilst we were waiting for room allocation.
There are times when the crew are some of the last to be informed and I learnt a long time ago that whatever I did as a passenger was going to have the square root of eff all effect so sit back, order another drink and fantasise about the crumpet.
PS we went over duty on a ZRH to BOM as someone decided that they wouldn’t allocate loading staff; so we sat at the gate with connecting passengers who hadn’t had anything to eat for seven hours telling them a lot of rubbish which is what we were being fed. Eventually I told dispatch we would need another co pilot unless we went as we were going over legal duty time out of home base. So they gave us an ETD which they failed to meet again. Conscious that pax take priority we illegally operated. Never heard anything back but it wasn’t the only time.
Had it before in my first outfit.

Runaway Gun

16th Dec 2021, 20:01

…is there anybody in the waiting area that may have a spare Electronic Fuel Flow sensor for a Trent?

barry lloyd

17th Dec 2021, 11:05

Hi all

Could I gently nudge this thread back towards my original question, namely how pax can get better info when something goes wrong besides the cliché of "operational reasons" ?
Many of you have your own war stories, but some people have less time than others to read everything, and maybe best if everyone tries to stick to the subject of the thread ? On a radio, everyone likes a strong signal:noise ratio.
It's certainly possible to have a general war-story discussion... but maybe best to have its own separate thread

I have explained in a previous post why I gave up very early on trying to explain the 'real' reasons for delays to pax. It simply takes you into an endless series of questions, which invariably leads to a dispute and this is why so little information is disseminated to pax. Many of them suddenly turn into operations gurus who 'know' far more than you about how airline operations work. Anyone who has ever worked in ops/dispatch will testify to this. As I posted earlier, there can be 100 reasons for a flight delay. The one the dispatcher doesn't want to see is number 31, because this invariably leads - at best - to a meeting without coffee with the ops manager. Dispatchers are busy people and there is rarely time to interact with passengers. There's always another flight waiting to be dispatched. Try working in an ops room when there are several delayed flights due to ATC, weather, etc., or worse still, diversions. Dealing with the phones, the radio and monitoring the screens for activity, is like, as one of my former colleagues put it, 'Being a one-armed paperhanger.'

With regard to FR 24 as a source of reliable information, my experience is less than stellar. In one airport where I worked, we had FR 24 on a large screen in the ops room, basically in order to know in what sequence the flights were arriving. On several occasions, the registrations of the aircraft turned out to be different from those on the screen. Invariably, the departure signal had posted the correct registration and flight number, but it did lead to confusion, not something you need when the LCCs have minimum turnaround times. The reasons for this were never determined afaik, despite discussions with the flight deck and airline ops. When I occasionally dip into FR 24 nowadays, I still see errors in the information provided, so, on a personal level at least, I am not convinced that it is a totally reliable source of information.

DaveReidUK

17th Dec 2021, 13:48

In one airport where I worked, we had FR 24 on a large screen in the ops room, basically in order to know in what sequence the flights were arriving. On several occasions, the registrations of the aircraft turned out to be different from those on the screen. Invariably, the departure signal had posted the correct registration and flight number, but it did lead to confusion, not something you need when the LCCs have minimum turnaround times.

As you're no doubt aware, commercial aircraft rarely transmit their registrations via Mode S or ADS-B, so sources such as FR24 rely on deducing the identity of the aircraft on the screen from their transmitted ICAO 24-bit address using proprietary and/or public domain tie-up databases.

On the handful of occasions that I've seen FR24 or other flight trackers display an incorrect identity, it has mostly been due to the aircraft in question transmitting the wrong 24-bit address due to either a technical fault or being wrongly configured.

It's happened to me maybe half a dozen times over the last 10 years or so - not a bad average!

wiggy

18th Dec 2021, 07:17

barry lloyd

18th Dec 2021, 08:42

As you're no doubt aware, commercial aircraft rarely transmit their registrations via Mode S or ADS-B, so sources such as FR24 rely on deducing the identity of the aircraft on the screen from their transmitted ICAO 24-bit address using proprietary and/or public domain tie-up databases.

On the handful of occasions that I've seen FR24 or other flight trackers display an incorrect identity, it has mostly been due to the aircraft in question transmitting the wrong 24-bit address due to either a technical fault or being wrongly configured.

It's happened to me maybe half a dozen times over the last 10 years or so - not a bad average!

Fair comment Dave, but I have also seen wrong origin/destination information attached to a particular flight as well - maybe for the same reasons, (I am not referring to N/A of course). I can quote delay codes to you ad infinitum, but I know naff all about how the FR24 system works! :)

Background Noise

18th Dec 2021, 14:57

I bet it is also to do with compensation. A bland 'operational reasons' without implicating anyone at that stage - a bit like not admitting blame after a road traffic accident. Had a captain in the US tell us over the PA that it was due to crew duty limitations but by the time we got to the desk it had become weather and not their fault.

Peter47

18th Dec 2021, 17:11

Back in 1979 we were told that a 40 minute delay was due the a p.a. jingle not working, a 'no go' item - it seemed bizarre at the time but I presume that it could be vital in an emergency. I wouldn't have known what an MEL was at the time.

Later in 1990 when the captain told me, face to face, that the technical delay was a sheared drive shaft knocking out a hydraulic system I had absolutely no trouble being delayed two hours.

I suspect that Ppruners are by nature a rather curious lot when it comes to learning about operational delays.

DaveReidUK

18th Dec 2021, 17:47

Fair comment Dave, but I have also seen wrong origin/destination information attached to a particular flight as well - maybe for the same reasons

That's exactly correct. As with the aircraft registration, the route origin and destination aren't transmitted either via Mode S/ADS-B. So the flight trackers maintain databases that attempt to tie up Flight IDs with the route flown.

As we know, flight numbers change over time, plus the flight trackers attempt to tie up not only scheduled flights, but also ad hoc flight numbers (maintenance, positioning flights, etc) which can vary from day to day. Add the extra complication of alphanumeric callsigns designed to avoid callsign confusion for ATC, and it's no surprise that wrong routes are shown from time to time.

davidjohnson6

18th Dec 2021, 22:01

What am I hoping for from airline/handling staff when things go wrong ?
An explanation that is not
a) patronisingly insulting such as "operational reasons because you are all too stupid to understand what an airplane is"
b) some (often) fake excuse (the standard "it was ATC's fault, nothing to do with us") and
c) doesn't involve somebody wallowing in jargon so as to utterly obfuscate the true picture

Two medical doctors talking amongst themselves immediately delve into technical jargon... but if (heaven forbid) you need to see a hospital consultant they are usually very happy to explain your test results and what they mean... and will often achieve this in a few minutes. Science journalists manage a similiar task in newspapers every day

Very few on here are epidemiologists... but those in the UK have all seen Chris Whitty's (or chief epidemiologist in your own country, eg Antony Fauci) slides and, despite the depressing message, many of the general public feel they understand the overall picture and the medics have respect from much of the public

Yes, a 737 is a complicated machine... but there are enough passengers on an average flight who have a decent brain and can follow sentences of more than 10 multi-syllable words. At least try to explain the issue - some pax will understand (and explain to pax travelling with them)... and pilots will be accorded due respect.

redsnail

19th Dec 2021, 10:12

Well, I explained to our 4 pax that we weren't going anywhere because the toilet servicing truck had reversed into the cowl creating an air gap too big to be MEL'd.
I would never attempt to do that with 180 people. I would then spend the next 2-3 hours explaining every minute detail to every passenger when I should be doing more operationally important stuff.

David, your example of doctors explaining your test results is it's pretty much one to one, not one to 180 different people with different levels of English and technical knowledge.
I have seen a passenger demand to get off a BA B777 because of a technical delay. He became convinced the aircraft was unsafe and even when the captain explained to him individually what was going on, he insisted on getting off. Creating another 45 minute delay.

Another example.
We had a an Aux Hyd pump intermittent failure on start up. I told the pax on board that we have a minor technical issue that we need to resolve before departure.
As we hadn't moved, it comes under the MEL. There's no MEL relief. We also checked the QRH to see if there was any procedures or what the issue is inflight.
We tried a full shut down and restart. That managed to make it work. In the mean time, we'd already contacted the company about a recovery flight and to get them ready to get an engineer over or start planning a recovery.
These pax needed to be at a meeting, the sooner we could resolve the issue, the better for them. If I had had to explain the detail of the fault, the significance of the fault, the likelihood of the fault having any operational impact but although, highly unlikely we'd need said system, it is important enough that it is a no-go. While their English was excellent, I doubt I could have explained it adequately without costing a lot of time.

After landing, the pump failed completely. Although, it wasn't the pump. It was the circuit board that controls the pump that failed. The aircraft was now AOG and we went to the hotel.

Experience has shown me that while it's extremely important to not lie or be dismissive of pax concerns, attempting to explain a technical issue just leads to one question and then another and another.

Chris Whitty et al, have spent time rehearsing their message and it's been through a lawyer or two. They're rarely answering ad hoc questions. Unfortunately, even a reasonable answer/attempt at explaining stuff still has the conspiracy theorists/covid antivaxxers disbelieving his message. Imagine that response on an aeroplane? As I have witnessed, those who chose not to believe the message from the captain will demand to get off the aircraft.

Cymmon

19th Dec 2021, 11:36

I was once waiting for a flight, many years ago. I was an interested spotter and knew all the technical jargon because I'd obviously read some books. 😁 (Joke before anyone shoots me down) . A business man wasn't happy demanding he speak with someone in authority. I knew something was happening because the crew were coming off said aircraft. Said business man saw the hat and stripes on one of the staff and promptly engaged in a rant regarding the delay.
The captain listened intently as the business man continued to spout rubbish. Then when he ran out of steam, the captain moved closer to the man and in a quiet voice said, "Sir, I'll put the problem into words you'll understand. It's f£#ked!"
Exit one red faced business man.
Bet that doesn't happen nowadays. 🤣

Bergerie1

19th Dec 2021, 12:17

I remember an occasion when we had started the take-off roll and had to abort from only about 80kts. Back on stand the engineers tried to fix it (I forget now what the problem was), when they had fixed it, we tried again with the same result. A reporter who was on board demanded to see the captain, so he was ushered up stairs whereupon he shoved a microphone under my nose saying we were totally unsafe and demanding an explanation. I said I would try to explain but only if he switched the recorder off and put it well out of reach (I didn't want him surreptitiously switching it back on again) and I would try to explain all the safety precautions involved.

He wouldn't except any of it and just kept on ranting. Finally, after quite some time, I said to him the more time I spend with you rather than trying to help resolve the problem the longer we may be delayed and that is not what everyone else wants. When this had no effect I told him he had a very simple decision to make. "Either you can shut up and return to your seat or you can f**k off and leave the aircraft, I don't mind which you do."

I did wonder what kind of letter he might write to the airline but he slunk off back to his seat and I never heard anything more about it

blind pew

19th Dec 2021, 13:04

Red snail;
Reminds me of a weird snag taxying out on the DC10 to somewhere a long way away when I selected take off slats/flaps and I got an amber caution even though they were correctly extended. I recycled but whilst it extinguished it came back on. The flight engineer was a Pilot doing a short stint before we got our MD11s whilst the regular genii where being trained up as pilots which meant two things..their technical knowledge wasn’t as comprehensive and they were junior officers in the military against the captain who was a colonel or something similar.
The captain was one of those go minded as they briefed and after trying different tacks I ended up stating I would stand on the brakes if he tried to go.
We returned twice to the gate and after a good couple of hours of engineers swarming over the aircraft they discovered a connection on the rear of the circuit breaker which had been arcing and could have had nasty consequences. I learnt a lesson a long time ago after my best mate died because of a bully.
Had another one in Moscow where one engine wouldn’t rotate, procedure start another, remove starter, fix blanking plate start original engine and go which needed a refuelling as well. First go on rickety stairs which sleet falling failed ..thought we had mixed up starter motors..so after three goes we went to the hotel until another aircraft was flown out with several starter motors and the bit that hadn’t been fitted when the engine had been overhauled the day before.
yes off the thread and old f@rts tales..but there are often unknowns and there was a reason that dispatchers had conspicuous red caps.

Musket90

19th Dec 2021, 19:14

In early 2000's booked on Airtours package to Maldives from Gatwick via Bahrain on B767-300. I believe both Airtours and Monarch at the time based crews in Bahrain and changed them for the onward return flights to Goa, Maldives and Trivandrum. While at check-in area an announcement was made for all premium booked pax to report to a certain desk number. Another announcement made stating there would be no in-flight entertainment and that the flight would now go to Dubai with the onward leg on an Emirates B777 but not giving the specific reason. I contacted some ex work colleagues at Gatwick who confirmed the B767 allocated for the flight had been damaged by ground equipment earlier in the day and that Airtours were now using a DC10-30 for the flight (G-BYDA) which was positioning in from Manchester. With no DC10 crew at Bahrain they elected Dubai and after minimum crew rest the same crew doing the return. The returning pax that day must have been very confused.and probably quite delayed.

The next year I did the same trip with Airtours but this time non-stop on the same DC10 and about 9.5 hours flight time. The return flight can take up to 11 hours due headwinds and once on board the captain announced they were delaying departure as the temperature needed to drop slightly enabling the aircraft performance to reach Gatwick without a fuel stop. Once we taxied out I warned my partner to expect a very long take-off roll. It didn't disappoint ! About 2 hours out from Gatwick the captain announced they didn't need a fuel stop. After landing we were allocated a stand on the South Terminal Pier 2 and when reaching it the aircraft stopped on the taxiway for 10-15 mins with engines running then captain announced the allocated stand was blocked by a broken down vehicle so they were negotiating another. After another 20 mins or so the captain announced they were shutting down the engines and the aircraft would be towed to another stand on Pier 3 (satellite). We eventually parked about 1 hour after landing.

S.o.S.

19th Dec 2021, 23:55

I appreciate that the thread has drifted a little bit away from the original question and I thought about splitting the thread out. However, the 'war stories' do also explain the difficulties of explaining ... so please do carry on giving us something that amuses and explains.

blind pew

20th Dec 2021, 08:18

Further to my Moscow adventure I will attempt to explain the complexity of a simple starter motor failure for the benefit of self loading, oxygen breathing and leaking freight.
It was in the 70s at the height of the Cold War where some of my mates were flying the pocket rocket through thunderstorms along the Berlin corridors with the real threat of being shot down if they strayed. It was also a time of extremely long ATC delays before continuous descent approaches were introduced. Moscow was a BOAC station with a BEA station manager, probably on his Tod, and we had a travelling spanner with a tool kit.
‘There was a performance limitation which was probably take off segment and we had refuelled for the return leg which is when the problem happened. After a brief trouble shooting which included finding engineering steps and try a manual operation of the starter we had to do a calculation of APU and single running engine expected fuel consumption, order a bowser before we could start. This process was repeated a second time including flight duty limitations and the possibility of only operating to Helsinki where we could night stop rather than sleeping on the aircraft. Station and the engineer communicated with London via telex which involved a journey to the bowels of Sheremetyevo and flight plans needed to be refiled. Each séjour took at least 20 minutes.
The captain stayed onboard where refreshments were served to the pax whilst I worked with our spanner on the top of some dodgy steps with the other copilot at the bottom; all of us dressed in woollen winter uniform and our famous raincoats with smugglers pockets. It was sleeting.
A triple engine start using one starter motor was considered but the captain wisely decided that even if it did work it wasn’t the wisest decision wrt flight safety. Fortunately Station managed to get us exceptional permission to land in the USSR, a bus was organised along with envelopes full of roubles and we were taken to a 4 star? Hôtel which mirrored some of the hotels I have stayed in in France in the 80s with regard to depravity. We were briefed on the BOAC chandeliers incident where the crew had searched for microphones, unscrewed the under carpet fixing plate and given rooms on different floors (male and female) with a babushka sitting at the end of each floor to stop us straying for a bit of home comfort.
The following day we were treated to the delights of a country which appeared to be under rationing but wearing uniforms we had a fabulous time seeing the sights.
None of the pax whinged as they understood the delights of air travel in that age.

DaveReidUK

20th Dec 2021, 10:19

I'm surprised there were any hotel chandeliers left in Russia, given the number of times I've heard that tale ... :O

PAXboy

20th Dec 2021, 16:00

I have been lucky over the years with only two long delays, both with simple reasons. Here is the first.

June 1990: I was returning from JNB on Sabena. It was a 743 and I was upstairs in Club, it was a daylight leaving around 07:00. We stopped at Kinshasa and then due direct to BRU, where I would connect to LHR.

Some hours into the long second sector, the Captain advised that Algeria had closed it's airspace to everyone and they did so when we were almost on their 'doorstep'. Consequently, we were going to have to go due West and cover a large part of the 'bulge'. This would mean a tech stop in Casablance for fuel and subsequent delayed arrival in BRU. As I was booked on the last out, I knew I would miss it and there were no onboard phones in those days to warn my girlfriend. She landed up going to LHR, where the flight arrived on time but finding out why I was not on it took until I got into the hotel room Sabena provided and could phone her.

At Casablanca, being unscheduled, we remained on board for the refuel. Just as we parked on a remote stand, a medium sized Police van rolled up and parked in the shade unde the wing to keep an eye on. It was the kind with two bench seats facing each other. The Police had a table between them and were playing cards. They were playing as they arrived, throught the refuel and as they drove away!

With the extended flight time, I was very lucky to be in Biz. The cabin service was distinctly average but the seat was big and comfy. I could take alcohol as I was not driving that night!

There was just one problem. In the row immediately in front of me, they had a babe in arms. Each time it screamed, she stuck a bottle in it's mouth. Inevitably there came the point at which the baby 'overflowed' at both ends ... As you will know, the Upper cabin in the 74 has the storage bins alongside the seats. Mother then proceeded to use this convenient flat surface to change baby. I reached for the call bell.

However, Sabena looked after us very well and I was on the first out the next morning.

So the explanation was simple and uncontrovertible as it will have cost Sabena a lot of money. But their handling of it meant that I used the same service again in the mid 1990s.

jumpseater

24th Dec 2021, 12:59

(snip)
It was in the 70s at the height of the Cold War

(snip)

Hôtel which mirrored some of the hotels I have stayed in in France in the 80s with regard to depravity..

I was dozing up until this point. You’ve got my full attention now, pray continue….

(Wheres ‘Slasher’ when you need him? This sounds like an old school intro in JB :ooh:…)

jumpseater

24th Dec 2021, 14:03

Yes, a 737 is a complicated machine... but there are enough passengers on an average flight who have a decent brain and can follow sentences of more than 10 multi-syllable words. At least try to explain the issue - some pax will understand (and explain to pax travelling with them)... and pilots will be accorded due respect.

This is a big NO, from me ‘operational/weather/tech is more than adequate. But if you want a fire starter for a terminal riot here’s how to do it.

It’s Christmas Eve, literally, and for the benefit of the story. You’re in ops and the redcaps and the dispatch/turnaround teams are working like slaves with the last few flights in filthy weather, both in blighty and across Europe, fog and widespread snow.
The last return rotation outbound LHR to Zurich has just gone tech, it’s a 737-700 (your type ma vary round trip fuel on board) and they’ve got a leading edge slat disagree and they’re talking to the spannerw@nkers who suggest bringing it back on stand for them to scratch and sniff. This is done and pax stay on board whilst the clock ticks away towards a no go time due insufficient turn round due airport closure at ZRH and the crew looking forward to sectors 4/5 of a day that would be shaded brown if you were color coding them. The engineers decide it’s £ucked, leaving a bloke working on it. So Xmas eve and you offload the pax with no aircraft to put them on, and the joy of trying to find hotels/taxis/coaches to transport them if there’s no solution.
However inbound you have a 1 hr delayed 737-300 (standby crew) which is due to go to Inverness and back which is just touching down. Your INV pax having followed’their’ plane on FR24 are smug that they are soon on their way.
So how easy is it going to be to tell them that their aircraft is going to be stolen with its crew to go to Switzerland, and that their ‘replacement’ is currently tech (might be repaired, dunno yet) with a crew running out of hours and unsurprisingly not prepared to go into discretion. You have to swap the aircraft and crew, as flight deck not cross rated between variants.
Meanwhile in Zurich the redcaps are beating off angry pax who want to know when they’re leaving, they know the airport closes and doesn’t do ‘extensions’ and its Christmas Eve..

Or you could run the INV as planned, hope the ZRH comes on line as the spanner’s have just advised you they think they’ll have sorted it in about 45mins. However if you do that the timing means you won’t have enough time to onload the return pax within curfews, so it’ll be land offload, and depart MT to get the aircraft and crew back in time so the aircraft is in the right location for the next days flying program, and to ensure it flies the right sequence of flights to get into its C check in two days time, without any subsequent positioning flights to get in the right place. And if you do that you’ve got to find transport and Hotac for 150 ZRH pax on Christmas Eve, and a separate hotel for the crew, you’re not going to put them in with a bunch of cancelled pax on Christmas Eve are you?

There you go. A fairly typical LCC day at the office.

Operational Reasons.

Sorted.

S.o.S.

24th Dec 2021, 14:29

jumpseater Thank You. That is a brilliant explanation. I am glad that my only journey today (Christmas Eve, is a 25 minute car journey to family.

jumpseater

24th Dec 2021, 16:08

S.o.S.
You’re welcome. I’d love to stop and chat but we’ve just worked out that if we swap and use the -700 for INV, due to the round trip ZRH fuel it won’t do INV as their runway is contaminated. We might stand a chance if we offload some pax and bags and go lighter, however it’s a full house, and they’re all checked in. We now need to decide which pax we’ll offload..

y’all have a good Christmas and spare a thought for the boys and girls across the industry, working through the holiday season.

tourops

24th Dec 2021, 16:42

I remember many moons ago people complaining about the fairly standard announcement "We apologise for the delay to your flight to XXX, this is due to the late arrival of the inbound aircraft", but didn't tell you why the inbound flight was delayed. One of the handling agents agreed with the statement being a bit vague and announced "We apologise for the delay to your flight to Palma, this is due to forest fires in Greece". No other explanation was given (ie the inbound aircraft was operating a Corfu return) leading to a lot of pax looking very confused as they knew (or thought) they weren't going anywhere near Greece.

barry lloyd

24th Dec 2021, 17:24

I was dozing up until this point. You’ve got my full attention now, pray continue….

(Wheres ‘Slasher’ when you need him? This sounds like an old school intro in JB :ooh:…)

Apologies to Dave Reid - if you don't want to read the story (again!), please look away!

Russia (USSR) - Red Faces in Red Square, By Bernard Garvie (1970) (http://betteronacamel.com/Russia-USSR-Red-Faces-in-Red-Square-By-Bernard-Garvie-1970-)

The story is completely true. Many years ago I used to stay there regularly, and I knew the manager of the Metropol, who was working there when the incident occurred. He confirmed the details of the story.

Apologies for the thread drift...

S.o.S.

25th Dec 2021, 00:49

No apologies needed barry lloyd A cheerful story like that on a dull and rainy (in the UK) Christmas Eve, is most welcome.

BRUpax

25th Dec 2021, 13:04

Indeed, a great story :)

Downwind.Maddl-Land

28th Dec 2021, 13:10

PAXboy

28th Dec 2021, 18:40

I recall a trip LHR-ABZ where we were given the 'ATC delay'. So I checked in PPruNe and - it was True!! However, I recall being reprimanded for doubting what I was I told by the flight deck. := Perhaps times change.

Mr Mac

28th Dec 2021, 19:55

I have had two longish delays in over 57 years of flying man and boy.
First was outbound with BCAL around 1975 going back to Chile on 707. We boarded A/C, engine started and then start ups stopped at the end of push. We were pulled back in to gate and large ladder brought to Starboard wing, and tech engineer appeared and climbed up onto wing, and removed a panel and then went and got a hammer to go with driver he already had. He then semi climbed into wing and used tools at hand. 30 min later we were off loaded and went to Brighton for 24hrs. Flew out following day with out any explanation apart from CC saying better to sort at Gatwick than have a problem down route.

Next was TWA out of Baltimore on 767 heading for Gatwick 1989, we never got near A/C as problem with engine spotted pre boarding. Part was available at JFK and TWA said they would send it down and fit and gave us vouchers for use at airport facilities, I flew in the back in those days unless someone took pity on you ! Well drinks were partaken in chunky amounts as we thought we would be flying that night. Unfortunately we and TWA did account for ground handling cock up, as part sent to Dulles not Baltimore followed by crash on Beltway which further delayed transfer. Bars had shut by then; and arrangements were made for night stop. I had met an interesting fellow and his colleague who were ostensibly going to American Univ in Tel Aviv, but who seemed more interested in stuff further East ( Gulf War one was 2 weeks old) and I had come back from Kuwait 3 weeks previously, and had worked in Damascus. Needless to say I got the impression they did not work for C&A. At the hotel drinking continued his colleague never made the room, which was a shame as she was cute ! Boarded flight 8.30 with horrendous hangover but got an upgrade unexpectedly and sat next to my drinking buddies 👍👍

All the rest of my flying has been near enough on time, or with minimal delays say under 6 hrs, so I must be lucky in that at least, and as others have said, I am always patient with those who serve me. Given that in normal times I fly around 300,000 miles per year I think it says a lot about modern A/C reliability.

Cheers
Mr Mac

Bigears

31st Dec 2021, 06:20

blind pew

31st Dec 2021, 07:31

Was once deadheading on a North African carrier that had landed at Geneva on its way to Zurich..OAT in the double figures..my captain spots a sheet of clear ice on the wings and sends me to cockpit…it took two full goes to clear the ice caused by cold soaked fuel. It had been missed by our company engineers who handled the turn around.

jumpseater

31st Dec 2021, 16:42

Yesterday evening departing Edinburgh, No1 son tells me that the pax were informed by the flightdeck that the (30min) delay was due to 'de-icing and helping an assistance passenger'.
Oddly, he (and presumably most pax) didn't think anything of it, until I told him he had been lied to, as the OAT was +9C.
'Delay due to operational reasons' would have saved the crews' credibility and the assistance passengers blushes.

This is exactly the sort of rubbish that ground staff have to face. Bigears here is accusing the crew of lying, yet he’s unfamiliar with cold soaked fuel and the issues it can cause. But he’s happy to advise his son of this ‘lie’, and perhaps his son passed this lie on to other passengers.. So whom has lost all credibility?

Now deicing an aircraft at EDI in December can probably be achieved relatively quickly, as de-icing capacity in winter is anticipated. Not so easy to arrange in summer months as deicing isn’t anticipated, de-icers aren’t available, so it’s wait for it to melt, thus ensuring a delay in your 30 minute turn round.
https://deicing.net/?p=261

Any volunteers out there happy to stand in front of a crowd of passengers in June and explain cold soaked fuel to them in four languages? Or is it more sensible to just apologise for an operational delay, that you know will resolve itself in an hour or so.

S.o.S.

31st Dec 2021, 16:51

Thank You to all for the continuing range of stories and views. I think this is really helpful to even the experienced SLF amongst us. Cold soaking has been discussed in the Cabin on occasions and (if memory serves) has contributed to prangs.

Anyway, I hope we can keep this level of reasoned debate and information into the new year.

Bigears

1st Jan 2022, 07:44

Jumpseater,

If I was incorrect in my assertion, I am more than happy to take the rap in public, call myself names, be embarrassed by my lack of knowledge and apologise to anyone and everyone I have offended.
I also put forward this example of why it may be better to state 'operational reasons' than give a specific reason.

I am slightly familiar with cold soaked fuel, however never considered it in this instance as the aircraft had been flying short sectors and on the previous sector the departure point was at +12.
My son did not pass on my thoughts to other passengers, as we only discussed it once he had landed.

V_2

1st Jan 2022, 08:30

I have encountered moderate icing on approach into ZRH. Some parts of my aircraft are not equipped with anti icing devices (particularly the tail). On stand the ice was still solidly attached, but being April and well above 0 the deicing teams where not ready. Took a while to melt off, duty free too expensive to get any vodka ;)

wiggy

1st Jan 2022, 12:41

Oh alright then, I raise you the scenario of having to wait for cold soaked wings to de-ice ……in Bermuda of all places…

And yes the decision was made to give an honest explanation…

Nightstop

1st Jan 2022, 16:20

I am slightly familiar with cold soaked fuel, however never considered it in this instance as the aircraft had been flying short sectors and on the previous sector the departure point was at +12.

Totally irrelevant what the departure point temperature was. Temperature reduction with altitude is approximately 2C/1000’. So, at 6,000’ cruise on your “short sector” (unlikely cruise altitude, by the way), the OAT would be 0C and very likely to be in the moderate/severe icing range if flying in cloud.

blind pew

1st Jan 2022, 18:30

Someone didn’t do physics at school nor understand the effect of speed and it’s affect on airframe temperatures.

paulc

4th Jan 2022, 16:51

Sometimes the reason for the delay is obvious to everyone. Years ago i was sat on a 757 doing a short domestic flight in the usa and that particular aircraft had been brought over from maintenance to replace the original aircraft which had gone tech earlier. There was a passenger in an overwing exit seat who was having a seatbelt issue, namely it was stuck in the overwing exit. Along came tech person who removed the exit and managed to deploy the slide. From the flight deck came a rather resigned crew member saying basically that the slide would take 4 hours to repack so please gather your belongings and leave the aircraft.

PAXboy

11th Jan 2022, 18:33

I have been very fortunate. My only other long delay was a simple one. CPT in February 2019 a venerable BA Queen of the Skies.
All aboard and doors shut.
After nearly an hour, my seat mate observes that they will soon push us off stand to beat the (then in force) EU261. But we did not move.

I was sitting in WT+ on the Starboard side, so just above the front cargo door. I saw the Loader arrive and the door opened. I wondered if there was a technical bay they might need to access ... but when the second ULD came out, I turned to my seat mate and said, "This is now an ex-flight". A few minutes later the Captain told us that we were canx as a particular sensor on one engine was no longer sensing anything and the spare was in JNB. Given flight limitation hours, then it was a full 24 hours. Although he did not mention the flight hours limit, just the main delay.

The shift to hotels was badly managed by their local agent but all other respects were good. With EU261 for a nearly full 744, BA must be glad to see the end of that!

So an extra sunny day in CPT with good food and wine and back to the machine after her engine test. The cabin crew member remembered our conversation about food from the previous evening! Such fine service.

Although the Pandemic was clearly established, little did I know that it would be my last on a BA Queen. She just always felt so secure and, despite all the shaking on the take off roll and the old noises, she gave us a beautiful ride home.

Espada III

11th Jan 2022, 20:53

Was delayed on EZY from TLV to MAN about three years ago as the incoming aircraft had not arrived. Ground crew had no idea what the reason was. As it happens the flight had to drop down into Sofia for a medical emergency and I knew this as a friend was on the incoming flight and was giving us a blow by blow account via Facebook. The staff were bemused when I told them what was going on and suggested that we get HOTAC sooner rather than later. Remarkably they listened and after some communication with EZY we were removed from the departure lounge, collected our luggage and went off for a nights enforced holiday.

davidjpowell

13th Jan 2022, 19:30

I'm enjoying this thread, having been frustrated by 'Operational Reasons' in the past. In my previous life a more useful pa would help me replan my day as I usually had appointments after my short flights. Flybe were generally quite good, one of the better ones being the copilot called in sick, a standby is in his car driving up from Birmingham (to Doncaster). At least we had a rough timeline.

My longest delay was in Dublin following a storm. I knew it was going to be bad - BA had canceled a lot of their morning flight, whereas Aer Lingus had not, and then when planes were not getting into Dublin ended up with planes and crew well out of position. The flight was due to depart mid-afternoon, and changed gates 9 times. Eventually, there were only two flights left, Manchester and Gran Canaria. We got lucky - Gran Canaria got cancelled and I still wonder where they found hotel rooms.

They called boarding at 23:45, and took out applause in good grace, but did point out we were not the first of the day... We then had to wait a bit for pilots (who thought they were off to Gran Canaria), and even longer for baggage loaders. We arrived into Manchester at 1;30, a long time after my last train home. Manchester had suffered from the same storms and hotels were not available. I ended up in a £150 Uber to Doncaster, which Aer Lingus reimbursed.

Fun times, that I don't expect to experience again.