Harness Info Needed

[KiwiNedNZ]

Morning All,

Leonardo had this harness on Heliservices stand at European Rotors. Am trying to find out the company that manufacturers it - would anyone here know.

I checked with Heliservice and they said Leonardo just put it on display and it wasnt one of theirs so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks



https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x2000/harness_1_a1cdc359e71b48314ccd3632acbcb8ae070a526f.jpg

[212man]

Have you looked through the exhibitors list?

[KiwiNedNZ]

Yes - no exhibitors there that give any clue that I could see.

[NutLoose]

It looks a bit like

https://www.petzl.com/INT/en/Tactical/Harnesses

try asking them.

[KiwiNedNZ]

Thanks Nut Loose - looks like its the same one. Interestingly it doesnt seem to be approved for aviation use (unless I am missing something) so why would they have it on display at European Rotors ? Any thoughts.

[KiwiNedNZ]

Actually on closer inspection it might be a different one as looking at the leg straps they dont have the clips and the metal loops look different.

[Hughes500]

does it need to be aviation approved. I would think a full body climbing harness would do the job nicely. Comes down to risk assessments really. Bit like are the karabiners aviation approved ? I would very much doubt it

[KiwiNedNZ]

Not when it comes to using it for shooting air to air. After the Fly NYON accident in NYC FAA and even down here there are restrictions on what you can and cant use. You cant just use a climbing harness - needs to be aviation approved.

[albatross]

I don’t think you would be getting out of that anytime soon when upside down and underwater. The old military ones with the quick releases were great.

[wrench1]

Not when it comes to using it for shooting air to air. After the Fly NYON accident in NYC FAA and even down here there are restrictions on what you can and cant use. You cant just use a climbing harness - needs to be aviation approved.
I can't help you that specific harness but I know of several other harnesses (Personal Carrying Device System) that are FAA TSO C-167 approved. They're not as elaborate as the one posted but they meet the current FAA requirements for that particular use. One vendor is Air Rescue Systems but don't recall the others however I can inquire if this is the type harness approval you are looking for.

[KiwiNedNZ]

Albatross - I already have quick release tethers for the harnesses I use that dont have a quick release system so using one like this would not be an issue.

wrench1 - I already have other harnesses as well including one from Air Rescue Systems. Being the publisher of HeliOps I am always looking at what else is out there - saw photos of this one from European Rotors and wanted to find out more about it.

[aa777888]

Harnesses meeting TSO C-167 would not have prevented the NYC tragedy. The TSO does nothing to define standards for quick release mechanisms. That is the subject of FAA Order 8900.4, published after and in response to the NYC event.

8900.4 does not require a TSO'd harness, only an FAA "approved" harness. 8900.4 does require such a harness have a quick release system that is "FAA approved". Application for approval is made to the Office of Safety Standards who then issue an LOA if approved. Thus it would potentially be possible to use a very wide variety of harnesses, not necessarily only those that meet the TSO, although no doubt meeting the TSO would undoubtedly be helpful ;)

It's worth noting that 9800.4 does not apply to FAA Part 133 HEC or public op's. It would appear that the FAA figures those op's already know what they are doing :)

BREAK

KiwiNedNZ I am curious what sort of quick release products you are using (and mind you this is strictly curiosity, I am not in the HEC or shoe-selfie business!) All of the ones I've seen advertised rely on a snap shackle mechanism. Having extensive maritime experience with snap shackles, I would NEVER trust such a mechanism for safety of life! When going aloft (up a mast) to fix something we always tied in to the halyard and never trusted the snap shackle alone (and sometimes used two halyards). I had heard rumors of a device based on the ubiquitous 3-ring release used in skydiving--that I would trust implicitly (I'm also a skydiver). But not a snap shackle, particularly one with an easily snag-able handle or lanyard.

[Glevum]

Survival Equipment Services make a restraint harness with a 3 ring release on the lanyard.

https://ses-safety.com/

[chute packer]

Be wary of 3 ring releases on a safety strop. RNZAF had an Iroquios crash where the survivor found the extreme forces on it kinked the cable to the point release was impossible.

SGT xxxxxxxx was unable to release himself from the wreckage due to damage to the plastic sheath of the release cable. He used a survival knife to cut the closing loop of the 3-ring release, allowing the tail unit to separate from the garment strop.

152. The Court of Inquiry is concerned that, while the ALP acted as designed to progressively decelerate SGT xxxxxxx sufficiently to permit his survival, the 3- ring release was rendered inoperative during that sequence. Had the aircraft caught fire, or rolled into water, he would have been unlikely to have been able to release himself from the wreckage quickly enough to avoid further injury.

199. ALP Garment Strops and Tail Units. CPL xxxxx was still attached to NZ3806’s uppermost LHS pylon forward bulkhead cargo anchor point after the accident. The garment strop and tail unit from SGT xxxxxxx ALP were found connected to NZ3806’s uppermost RHS pylon forward bulkhead cargo anchor point. As discussed earlier, damage to the three ring quick release mechanism on the tail unit prevented it from being operated by SGT xxxxxxxx

[aa777888]

Interesting. Do you have a link to the report available?

This is a well known failure mode for parachute applications, although more normally caused by poor maintenance as opposed to high forces on the equipment, but I'm sure you know that given your screen name :)

One hopes they re-engineered that specific design in light of this particular accident because it is a superior cut-away system compared to other approaches.

Of course nothing is perfect. Are there not examples of every system under the sun failing at one time or another? This is just one event. I'd still take a 3-ring over any other cut-away system, assuming it was properly sized and engineered. Larger rings and even four ring systems are used where forces are (or may be) higher.

[snakepit]

Thanks Nut Loose - looks like its the same one. Interestingly it doesnt seem to be approved for aviation use (unless I am missing something) so why would they have it on display at European Rotors ? Any thoughts.

The EU does not certify harness for use in aviation but rather by what they do for the wearer. IE sports harnesses (does what it says), Comfort harnesses (suspension and positioning where it does not include a 'fall arrest' element) and then the addition of a shoulder harness can make a comfort harness into a fall arrest harness. After all your little pink body doesn't care if you are hanging from a tree with nylon rope, from a 20 story building site with steel rope or from a helicopter, the harness functionality vs body is what is important not necessarily the environment it is used in.

I believe in AUZ and NZ the aviation regulator takes this further but in my experience aviation regulators simply don't have the knowledge in harness design and manufacture to actually know what is right for the task or to keep up with the speed of such a specialist industry like fall and arrest, never mind the medical considerations.

[KiwiNedNZ]

The EU does not certify harness for use in aviation but rather by what they do for the wearer.

Disagree there as thats not what Gerold from Air Zermatt told me.

[snakepit]

Disagree there as thats not what Gerold from Air Zermatt told me.

Certain aircraft OEMs can specify what equipment is supposed to be used with the hoist when fitted to the aircraft but that is an OEM restriction not an EASA certification. I would be interested (but not pleased) to see an EASA certified harness if anyone can produce the evidence?

There are plenty of harnesses manufactured to EN standards but that is totally different to regulator (EASA) certification...

[Glevum]

I could have been clearer with my previous post.

The 3 ring release on the harnesses that we bought from SES is mounted on the harness and releases the lanyard from the back of the harness. The tube is on the harness.

It may be possible to kink the release tube during an accident, but I think you would probably be passed caring by that point.

[Hot and Hi]

Survival Equipment Services make a restraint harness with a 3 ring release on the lanyard.

https://ses-safety.com/
hi Glevum, could you identify the specific product you are talking about in this website?

[Glevum]

Hi HnH,

SES made up 4 harnesses in 2017 for use in the film industry. I am not sure if they are a standard product now, but they said they could make more at the time.

I suggest you speak to Ginny at SES.

[Nigel Brennan]

Morning Kiwined
we made harnesses for the Surf lifesaver helicopters here in OZ and they were CAR35'd listing each aircraft rego. This was the easiest way to cover each aircraft type (EC135/AS350/B206L'B105cb5) that was being used!
cheers
Nigel @ Skywerx

[KiwiNedNZ]

Since this topic has gone completely off topic I thought I would remind everyone that the reason for this post is I am trying to find the manufacturer of the harness in the original post that was on display at the Heliservice AW169 at European Rotors. Its not one of the ones used by them and they said someone from Leonardo borrowed it from another exhibitor at the show to put on display but I cannot find who that exhibutor is even after going through their website. So if anyone has an idea that would be great :)


KiwiNedNZ (https://www.pprune.org/members/415445-kiwinednz) I am curious what sort of quick release products you are using (and mind you this is strictly curiosity, I am not in the HEC or shoe-selfie business!) All of the ones I've seen advertised rely on a snap shackle mechanism. Having extensive maritime experience with snap shackles, I would NEVER trust such a mechanism for safety of life! When going aloft (up a mast) to fix something we always tied in to the halyard and never trusted the snap shackle alone (and sometimes used two halyards). I had heard rumors of a device based on the ubiquitous 3-ring release used in skydiving--that I would trust implicitly (I'm also a skydiver). But not a snap shackle, particularly one with an easily snag-able handle or lanyard.

I primarily use two - one was made in Australia that a lot of the crewies wear. It has the parachute rings type setup on the back and the ripcord type handle on the front. The other one I use is a US made one from ARS which has the quick release lanyard.

Because of the way the FAA do it now after the Hudson accident they approve a person with each specific harness and then send you paperwork for that specific combination of you and that harness. If you turn up to do a shoot and an FAA rep does a spot inspection and you are using a different harness to that mentioned in the approval doc then the operator is in deep ****e.

[aa777888]

Because of the way the FAA do it now after the Hudson accident they approve a person with each specific harness and then send you paperwork for that specific combination of you and that harness. If you turn up to do a shoot and an FAA rep does a spot inspection and you are using a different harness to that mentioned in the approval doc then the operator is in deep ****e.
As defined in FAA Order 8900.4, already referenced and discussed above.

The Petzl Avao Bod International seems a near clone (or more likely the other way around, given Petzl's market leadership). Why not just get the Petzl?

[KiwiNedNZ]

Why not just get the Petzl?

Because as I said previously I am not wanting to buy it - I already have two harnesses of my own that I use. I own and publish HeliOps - we always keep an eye out on what harnesses are out there for crews to use and in some cases highlight them in the mag. This was one we hadnt seen before hence the original post asking if anyone knew who makes it so we can source some additional info about it.

[421dog]

I think it looks a lot like a Beal harness. The D rings, stitching, and general design are really close to a “Pro Hold Up” that bounces around the airport here when people need to climb tall stuff.y