COS18 one year on!

[Jnr380]

Well it hasn't been a full year yet, but according to the business check in CX be will going on a recruitment drive apparently next year, and once they have exhausted the local talent, they'll set their eyes again at attracting expats. Here is a rundown of what to expect as an expat, the figures will be quoted in USD as this is a 'universal currency'. The figures will be based on FO 1 with a wife and three kids, if you’re FO2 expect things to be slightly better, if you’re SO1 expect things to be a lot more worse. If you're Captain then you'll have it good
but not that great!

Now this is what the DFO has described as a "Competitive" package.

BASE PAY AND PILOT ALLOWANCE AND EDUCATION ALLOWANCE
Base Pay and Pilot Allowance - $8790 USD per month.
Education allowance per child in Hong Kong - $860 per month.

Your Total base wage will be $9650 USD per month! Yes its a lot of money for a First Officer, and on paper it looks very tempting but once you move to Hong Kong, you'll realize how quickly you'll burn through it. So lets start by taking tax out at about 15% so the net income will be about $8200 USD per month

EXPENSES

Rent - Well with three kids, you'll probably need at least a 3 bedroom, If you want to live in DB, expect to pay on average $4000 USD for rent per month, if you want live in Tung Chung, expect about $3200 USD per month for rent

So now you're left with $4700 USD after you put a roof over your family’s head. (I used $3500 as the mean cost)

Education - That $860 USD per month should cover school costs! well yes it does if you send your kids to a local schools who teach kids to be more robotic than free thinkers, so you look for an international school, good luck finding one that will charge less than $1200 per month, so now to give your kids a decent education you'll have to pay an extra $322 USD per child per month, don't forget about the debenture and capital levy fees which is an added extra and not part of the tuition fee that can range from $5000-$50,000 USD per annum

So the balance is now $3730 USD left, yeah not bad at all

Medical - Good luck if you end up in hospital under the CX benefits, the hospital will chew through your "benefits" on the first day! so now you'll need to get extra private insurance which can run you up to $400 USD per month per family for decent cover

Balance: $3330

Food - If you don't have a local palate, expect to pay about 2-4 times the price of the same item you regularly buy back home, expect about $2000 USD per month on food

Balance: $1330

Utilities - Between internet subscription, phone plans, electricity and gas, it'll cost about $290 USD per month

Balance: $1040

There are other things you can tack onto that, like extra curricular activities for the kids, family activities, clothes and even a helper, all this must fit within the $1040 left over and that doesn't get you far in Hong Kong, so, if you move to Hong Kong, you can be saving as much as $1000 USD if you have a strict budget and don't let your kids enjoy life! Otherwise expect to break-even every month or end up being in debt.

So, yeah it all looks good on paper, but once you break it down, realistically you'll end up in a debt cycle that you will struggle to get out of and the company's care Factor is ZERO!

I hope this provides prospective to expats who are considering this "Airline" as a viable option. Unless you have an absolute death wish to come here and live in debt.

[oriental flyer]

A good post but I think you are light on the rental , if you want more than a shoe box it’s going to cost more than $ 4,000 per month in some cases considerably more .
Utilities $ 290pm , possible only if you are very careful but in the summer heat running 3 a/c units expect to pay significantly more
so that doesn’t leave much for your retirement or fun to be had with the family . Basically you will be working to live

[Oli777]

add transport.... $1000pm
and entertainment... $1000pm
ex wife/girlfriend/hooker.. $75,000pm

Balance -$infinity (that's a strong minus)

[mr did]

You didn't allow for the 21 days a month free accommodation at Penny's Bay. That should save a bit.

[missingblade]

You're not even close....

Schooling is substantially more expensive.
High schools are about $2000 usd a month. Then sports etc are easily another $500+. Per child.

Travel - even if you go only once a year back to your home country and stay with your parents for every "holiday" that will cost you a few thousand usd a year. Which you won't have. And forget about ever going to stay in a hotel or god forbid a beach resort ever again..you simply don't have the money.

At a company like Emirates the salary is actually still a bit lower than at Cathay for similar hours flown in a month - but once taxes and bills are calculated there is NOTHING left for an FO with a kid or two at Cathay. For a captain maybe a thousand or two. And this assumes you get the hours every month. If for any reason you don't fly your full roster - like mmmm - rostering taking a flight off you or you going on leave - you lose as much as half your potential paycheck.


An FO at EK has the ability to save some money - you know for retirement and all that. At CX you have absolutely zero chance of saving a cent on FO pay. You will enter retirement with a potential 30 more years of life to finance with almost no savings. And the provident fund is at best good for about 1/3 of your retirement needs.

So the spouse has to work - but then the cost of a helper to take care of the kids while wifey works eats up half her salary if she isn't some sort of professional ..you better marry a woman/man who can earn a decent paycheck or hkg is not doable.

Housing - there is a huge difference between living in a tiny flat in hkg with your two kids and helper compared to a big (free) house in the desert...this cannot be quantified purely in dollars.

I can go on. But the que of Bright eyed applicants will probably not heed this warning so I'll stop wasting my time...

[volare_737]

You saying 8790 is the whole package including housing and flying ? How many hours would that include of flying every months ?

[Gravox]

Everything above is spot on.

Kids sport is a killer, here is what my kids are interested in;
In US dollars
Football $32/hr
Karate. $38/hr
Sailing $51/ lesson
Parkour $38/hr
Swimming $38/ 45min

My son is having learning support at school to help with learning difficulties 3 hours a week @ $115/hr
Domestic Helpers are a way of live over here, the help raise the kids while you are away and the wife is out working, min salary $800/mth

Forgot about servicing a mortgage back home.

[Jnr380]

The hours vary depending on fleet but they will roster you for minimum hours so they don’t pay you any excess flying pay

[Oddball77]

Also forget about buying a place in HK (because you won't be able to afford it), so in essence you'll be stuck in a rent trap for the rest of your 'career' at CX. So when you retire, expect to have zero home equity to your name.

[Jnr380]

missingblade

I was being as conservative as possible, you’re right, as one’s kids get older, expenses mount and then no chance whatsoever of saving a dime.

If a person thinks they can probably ride it out till they get command, well, command will take 12-15 years, so a person is stuck on the same joining salary or slightly a bit more till they get command! How many people can say they’ll be happy to go into a job where they know they won’t get any pay increase for at least 12 years?

[Fly747]

Jnr380. At the rate at which pilots are leaving some are predicting that time to command may come down to 5 years or less.

[jetjockey696]

For the Bright light Big City young kids... if want to save.. try a Nano flat with a garden... there are many in Hong Kong.. Less furniture, save money on not buying much.. be perfect for the wife since you be in Penny Bay Correctional Facility for most of the year, you only need a bed for few days once you get parole, before it all starts again. "217 sq ft studio with a 201 sq ft garden cost about HK$4.7 million (US$603,000), or HK$21,645 per sq ft, whereas the 206 sq ft unit one level up cost HK$4.14 million or HK$20,073 per square foot" if that too rich for the blood. These nano flats goes for around 15K HKD per month. https://www.hongkonghomes.com/en/property-search/for-rent?order=pra&spacious&squarefoot&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI89yw44HC9AIVhjMqCh3AIg7IEAAYAiAAEgKi2vD_Bw E

reading material..
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/tiny-hong-kong-nano-flat-041410007.html

[Jnr380]

Fly747

I highly doubt 5 years, at best it will be 10 years.

[smogluver]

They will just hire direct entry captains, that’s what you get for a crap
contract.

[Will IB Fayed]

Wish I had a thousand USD surplus each month.

[hans brinker]

H€££, second year FO pay at the lowest paid LCC in the USA is about $9500/month....
The hard part is the work permit, but everyone is hiring here, can't believe there's any US eligible workers that would stay there. You can always live somewhere else and commute.

[bravoromeosierra]

On the upside, I'm sure property prices will tank once they have finished absolutely trashing HK.

[SaulGoodman]

nope: influx of Mainlanders

[KABOY]

The mainland is very good at assimilating the population.

The city will transition into a mandarin speaking mainland city, similar to ‘boiling frog’

The Bauhinia Flag will be slowly lowered, the art of war will be complete on this colony.

[Rie]

Property prices still going up. Rents are down but that's just supply vs demand right now. No point selling quite yet. All the mainlanders are using a shoebox in HK as a reason to escape what is up north.

HK is already a mandarin speaking city... Just ask any of the Bobbies anything in Canto or English... Probably can't respond anymore.

[noboloco]

Well you have quoted base pay only so COVID times aside you’d likely be pulling in more than that per month. You also have assumed a wife that doesn’t work at all. In any other country the wives would need to work in order to make ends meet as well so you are doing well to survive off a sole income, at least childcare is cheap in HK with a domestic helper compared to the western world.

3 kid family will of course find expenses high in any country. Kids are expensive... But if you have only 1-2 kids you’d be living pretty comfortably on the cx package as an FO or CAPT.

If the package was so unliveable then no one would be left working at CX. Those saying you would be better off at EK, I suggest you go read the thread posts on here about the cost of living in Dubai and you’ll quickly realise you are still better off at CX. Dubai has its own problems of no democracy and restricted freedom of speech as well.

[Jnr380]

Where do I start picking this apart?
1 - The quoted amount included the pilot allowance.

2 - The wife/husband when you uproot and move as a expat might struggle to find work due to unrecognised qualifications so they will probably not work.

3. There is no way you can live comfortably on an FO salary in Hong Kong even with 2 kids. The cost of quality education alone is through the roof.

4. EK offers a house and pays for all utilities, they provide a relocation allowance and decent medical coverage. Whereas CX does their best to push you into the public system.

You post is fraught with so much errors that it’s embarrassing

[bufe01]

Don’t know about that.
I have been monitoring money very closely since POS18, FO2, 1 child.
Wife works and earns very decent money now but she is working a lot more than before and enjoying HK life a lot less.
My son luckily doesn’t pay for sports, he play sports in two clubs one is free because he’s decent and was offered a spot and I coach in the other so I get a deal, that’s good money I am saving.
We haven’had a holiday or travelled.
You add a son, pay for sports, wife earns less, take a deserved holiday, go back home a few times and it is a completely different picture.
We can make it now, don’t know about 2023.
EK yes probably same **** different colour, sometimes just a change of colour is at least something.
Got to go take two tests now…..

[missingblade]

Once he housing and schooling allowances disappear end of 2022 the package will be unlivable. Fact.

And even if you can make ends meet the ultimate problem is still - as stated many many times - that you will live a crap lifestyle in a crappy flat unable to afford anything beyond basics and absolutely unable to save, buy a house anywhere or prepare in any way for retirement. You will leave here as poor as you came.

But come please all of you doubters come here and figure it out for yourselves...

This will become a commuting contract for the majority post covid - like every other asian carrier who employs outside labour...

[Jnr380]

noboloco,

In all seriousness, I put figures in place. I’m sure myself and everyone else on this thread would love a rundown of your numbers and how you arrived to “comfortable living” with 2 kids and assuming the wife will not be working.

You seem really good at dishing it out at whomever whispers anything about CX and moving on….. it’s almost like you’re trying your best to discourage people from leaving. So put up or shut up with the numbers.

[Rie]

With a wife not working and most of your money being lost on tennis lessons, coffee and DB bookazine I doubt you will even have a spare cent to pay for DB International School.

The exodus will continue until the only ones who are left are the single/never married FO's and SO's.

[Sqwak7700]

smogluver

Exactly. This is how the contract is structured. To hire what you need. Keeps training costs down. Just look at how many DFOs they are hiring right now.

This is no longer a career airline. Just look at it with the same lens as you do Korean. Except, Korean will still exist in 2023.

[Jnr380]

The problem with direct entry command is the course will most likely be difficult and expecting a high a failure rate. Remember, the only pilots that meet CX standards are CX pilots……or not.

[Rie]

They will just lower the standards. As the way most expat flooded companies no, you have to be a perfect sky god to pass a command upgrade internally but they will let any man and his dog in direct entry.

[Pickuptruck]

They will just lower the standards. As the way most expat flooded companies no, you have to be a perfect sky god to pass a command upgrade internally but they will let any man and his dog in direct entry.
Everyone I fly with that's looking at EK can't believe how sh*t the pay is. Grass isn't always greener but it's nice to pretend.

[main_dog]

Everyone I fly with that's looking at EK can't believe how sh*t the pay is. Grass isn't always greener but it's nice to pretend.

Perhaps, but you’ll be putting some money away every month since rent and utilities are paid for by the company, and they still offer schooling. With some of the highest housing costs in the world, an FO with kids won’t be saving anything in Hong Kong. Not to mention the EK attraction of being a free human being again on layovers and on days off in Dubai.

EK pay is bad, no arguments there, the point is that on COS18 CX is now worse, and that’s saying something.

[Jnr380]

Everyone I fly with that's looking at EK can't believe how sh*t the pay is. Grass isn't always greener but it's nice to pretend.

Pickup Truck

Do the maths! I did it for my personal circumstances against COS18, and it worked out I’ll be saving about $30k HKD per month on the base salary with company housing, Compared to the $8k HKD I’m saving now! Some people like yourself are too loyal to CX, enjoy your “competitive salary” that’ll leave you shackled in debt.

Do you know who else was loyal to CX? The based pilots who on average had 20 years vested in the company. Ask them about the return they got for their loyalty to the company.

[Piet Lood]

Also compare apples with apples.
There’s no income tax in the ME, is there?

[volare_737]

If you think you can have a nice decent lifestyle in Hong Kong with under 100K a months you are fooling yourself. We are a couple with no kids and no expenses anywhere in the world. Also not living over the top, but just the same way I would live like in Oz or Europe, although your housing will never be the same unless you spend another 50K a months. Take kids in to account forget about the 100K. Its all easy to work out ,and who ever says otherwise got blinkers on !!!!!

[Climb150]

If you think you can have a nice decent lifestyle in Hong Kong with under 100K a months you are fooling yourself. We are a couple with no kids and no expenses anywhere in the world. Also not living over the top, but just the same way I would live like in Oz or Europe, although your housing will never be the same unless you spend another 50K a months. Take kids in to account forget about the 100K. Its all easy to work out ,and who ever says otherwise got blinkers on !!!!!


​​​​​​Even before COVID 100k HKD a month is plenty for a couple with no kids. That's close to 13k USD per month. That will give you a very nice lifestyle even in NYC.

Unless you feel that you need to rent a 3 bedroom apartment in the mid levels and own a car.

[ng_lan_fly]

It's a good thing you and your partner don't have kids then...in the wrong occupation definitely. Or just simply trim your lifestyle costs. :ok:

[volare_737]

​​​​​​Even before COVID 100k HKD a month is plenty for a couple with no kids. That's close to 13k USD per month. That will give you a very nice lifestyle even in NYC.

Unless you feel that you need to rent a 3 bedroom apartment in the mid levels and own a car.

I said "living like at home in a first world country". If you want to live in the city in a 300 square feet apartment thats not living. Any nice apartment or village house costs you 35K and up. Add another 10 for a car and utility's you already at 45. Pop down to Vietnam or Thailand for a long weekend and another 15K at least are gone. Now you already on 60. Now going out twice a week and you normal groceries at home gets you close to 100k. You have not even bought any clothing and not had a long overseas holiday either. If you say you dont need all that , you are right but then you not comparing your living standard to living in a first world country !!!

[noboloco]

I said "living like at home in a first world country". If you want to live in the city in a 300 square feet apartment thats not living. Any nice apartment or village house costs you 35K and up. Add another 10 for a car and utility's you already at 45. Pop down to Vietnam or Thailand for a long weekend and another 15K at least are gone. Now you already on 60. Now going out twice a week and you normal groceries at home gets you close to 100k. You have not even bought any clothing and not had a long overseas holiday either. If you say you dont need all that , you are right but then you not comparing your living standard to living in a first world country !!!

15k for long weekend holidays to SE Asia every month? :} Pretty sure your friends back in your home country aren’t living with that sort of exuberance nor have the rostering to be able to do so. 40k a month on groceries and eating out? Maybe you should sort out your budgeting if that is how you are living. You are living better than 99% of people
in first world countries.

[Dingleberry Handpump]

15k for long weekend holidays to SE Asia every month? :} Pretty sure your friends back in your home country aren’t living with that sort of exuberance nor have the rostering to be able to do so. 40k a month on groceries and eating out? Maybe you should sort out your budgeting if that is how you are living. You are living better than 99% of people
in first world countries.
The difference is, in HK, you have absolutely zero desire to stay cooped-up in your crap apartment. This costs money. Also, kids cost an exorbitant amount in HK. Schooling is huge when you factor books, transport, extra-curriculars etc..

I’m not sure (nor am I concerned) what you class as a normal upbringing for a child, or standard of home life you would accept. I want my family to enjoy the things they would back home.

If I was home, I’d be living in a nice house with space, a garden, a garage etc. Complete apples to oranges. Schooling is free. Healthcare is trustworthy. Kids have space to play outside. They don’t need to live permanently on a phone screen (don’t get me started). My wife’s yoga/pilates monthly subscription would be the price of one session in HK. My groceries would be a third of the price, and far better. I don’t need to escape the country for some peace & quiet. I don’t need to maximise my time out of the house.

Even ‘nice’ properties in HK are atrocious. Look at the standard of the fixtures, tiling, plumbing, flooring… The standard of everything in my very ‘normal’ house back home is higher in every single regard. All for the price of a HK nano-flat.

HKers seem to have become accustomed to poor quality as a theme. Be that groceries, accommodation, children’s upbringings, air…

It isn’t worth it for me anymore. It will do for now because my options are limited. However, I’ll have a far better life on a 50% pay cut back home, so that is what I’ll be doing at the first opportunity. Nothing personal and no hard feelings. I enjoyed my time in HK pre-Covid. The pros outweighed the cons. Now it isn’t close. The company seem fairly content with this too, so win-win.

[volare_737]

The difference is, in HK, you have absolutely zero desire to stay cooped-up in your crap apartment. This costs money. Also, kids cost an exorbitant amount in HK. Schooling is huge when you factor books, transport, extra-curriculars etc..

I’m not sure (nor am I concerned) what you class as a normal upbringing for a child, or standard of home life you would accept. I want my family to enjoy the things they would back home.

If I was home, I’d be living in a nice house with space, a garden, a garage etc. Complete apples to oranges. Schooling is free. Healthcare is trustworthy. Kids have space to play outside. They don’t need to live permanently on a phone screen (don’t get me started). My wife’s yoga/pilates monthly subscription would be the price of one session in HK. My groceries would be a third of the price, and far better. I don’t need to escape the country for some peace & quiet. I don’t need to maximise my time out of the house.

Even ‘nice’ properties in HK are atrocious. Look at the standard of the fixtures, tiling, plumbing, flooring… The standard of everything in my very ‘normal’ house back home is higher in every single regard. All for the price of a HK nano-flat.

HKers seem to have become accustomed to poor quality as a theme. Be that groceries, accommodation, children’s upbringings, air…

It isn’t worth it for me anymore. It will do for now because my options are limited. However, I’ll have a far better life on a 50% pay cut back home, so that is what I’ll be doing at the first opportunity. Nothing personal and no hard feelings. I enjoyed my time in HK pre-Covid. The pros outweighed the cons. Now it isn’t close. The company seem fairly content with this too, so win-win.


You are so right , but some people just dont see it. At present a top level Captain basic salary after tax including housing at HKE is about 65 K HKD. Now if anybody can say that one can live nice on that I don't know anymore !!!

[Climb150]

Why would you take a job in HK knowing the salary then complain that the cost of living is not the same as your home country? Cathay pay will be determined by how many people turn up for the job.

Long weekends in Thailand? Your delusional!!

[noboloco]

Because unilateral 40+ % pay cuts.

Some quoted figures are somewhat exaggerated, however the premise remains - anyone that brings family here will live hand to mouth at best, so the question is, why leave home for this?

So why then are a bunch of gweilos (ex-KA) joining GBA if Hong Kong is such an unaffordable place to live? l haven’t seen the contract but pretty sure they’ll be getting paid less than cx.

[Gnadenburg]

So why then are a bunch of gweilos (ex-KA) joining GBA if Hong Kong is such an unaffordable place to live? l haven’t seen the contract but pretty sure they’ll be getting paid less than cx.

Because, to coin Dr Otremba's phrase, they have long pockets. The irony of making many senior pilots redundant, is they could afford to live in HK on a reduced wage, however, would they endure it? I left with a paid off Village House and Mid Levels property. The COS package is affordable though I have chosen to sit this one out for a few years. Many ex-KA have walked away from aviation. I loved Hong Kong, loved the rock-style lifestyle that volare alluded to, but that money is not good enough. If you are local, perhaps it is, yet I would caution, that the money will probably drop further if localisation occurs on a grand scale.

Good luck! Would love to return one day ( I think ).

[Dragon Pacific]

So why then are a bunch of gweilos (ex-KA) joining GBA if Hong Kong is such an unaffordable place to live? l haven’t seen the contract but pretty sure they’ll be getting paid less than cx.

Because they realize that if they want to stay in the flying game then you need to be current, in addition GBA are giving away free 737 type ratings. They can’t survive on that money but in the long term have no intention of doing it for longer than necessary. It is called waiting out the storm.

[JMock]

Because they realize that if they want to stay in the flying game then you need to be current, in addition GBA are giving away free 737 type ratings. They can’t survive on that money but in the long term have no intention of doing it for longer than necessary. It is called waiting out the storm.

bingo
its not rocket science