French beaches

[arf23]

I have a silly civilian question...

Is it possible for the RAF or Army to have some air resources within our territorial limits but maintaining excellent overwatch over certain French beaches, such as when there is observable activity with rafts getting ready to launch, or lots of cheap prepay mobiles congregating, that we call the French police and alert them pre-sailing? And in good weather use a satellite.

Good practice for the operators I'd have thought.. The current plan for British police/Border Patrol to be walking up and down French beaches is an obvious non-starter to all except PP..

arf23

[trim it out]

Like this (https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/raf-transport-aircraft-used-to-monitor-english-channel/)?

[charliegolf]

I'm sure I heard a snippet on the news saying that a number of EU countries had agreed to do flights too. But I can't find a reference.

CG

[Ninthace]

If you look at FR24, from time to time, you will see a UK Coastguard aircraft flying racetracks over the Channel.

[OldLurker]

Is it possible for the RAF or Army to have some air resources within our territorial limits but maintaining excellent overwatch over certain French beaches, such as when there is observable activity with rafts getting ready to launch, or lots of cheap prepay mobiles congregating, that we call the French police and alert them pre-sailing? And in good weather use a satellite.

Good practice for the operators I'd have thought.. The current plan for British police/Border Patrol to be walking up and down French beaches is an obvious non-starter to all except PP..BBC news reports that in today's talks (from which PP was disinvited) apparently EU Border Force agreed to do it themselves, from 1st December. How much difference that'll make remains to be seen.

[ORAC]

From the press reports the French already know where they are launching from - they just and watch them. I’m not sure what value providing additional confirmation would provide.

[3db]

It rather baffles me what the problem is the French have (other than no interest). When lots of migrants were crossing from Turkey to the Greek Islands last year, the EU gave Turkey a sum of money and the Turks stopped it. The Turks regularly patrol the areas concerned. OK, the very occasional dingy gets across, say no more than 1 per month. If the Turks can do it, why can’t the French? Yes, I know the answer, and that is the problem.

[Rigga]

The Turks can turn back boats in international waters - there aren’t any international waters in the narrows of the Channel. Just English or French waters and once in English waters ‘we’ are obliged to take them in.

The French don’t have legal powers to prevent people leaving their shores…yet.

[KAISERSOZE]

But why the French want to retain them for leaving ?
They are illegal immigrants willing to leave by themselfs. It sounds more like a solution than a problem... for the French of course

[woptb]

If only we were still members of the Dublin convention !

[TBM-Legend]

Break out the Sentinel R1's....

[NutLoose]

Buy 4 or 5 still woiuld work out cheaper than using a A400

https://www.diamondaircraft.com/en/special-mission/aircraft/da42-mpp/overview/

[Foxxster]

Absolutely no point. Plenty of photos and video footage of French police standing and watching as they launch their boats. And with over 25,000 this year at over $6,000 a person, all in cash… one can only wonder. Can’t one.

[Trim Stab]

From the press reports the French already know where they are launching from - they just and watch them. I’m not sure what value providing additional confirmation would provide.

The French police do not have powers to prevent people going to sea in dinghies, or leaving the country if they so wish. Just as UK police do not have powers to stop people going to sea in UK , and sailing out of UK water if they so wish.

It is thus actually legally difficult for the police to stop the dinghies going to sea.

They can intervene if they are in breach of the rules concerning safety at sea. But If they have equipment to "categorie 6" - which generally they do - then they are entitled to go out to 2nm.

Thus the police have to prove that they are illegally in the country (not easy). Or that they are intending to commit a crime (again not easy, because sailing into UK waters is not a crime).

These people do not want to be in France (or elsewhere in EU) because it is too difficult to live and work. Here in France it is very hard to work in the black economy and there are heavy sanctions for both worker and employer if they do. Also, there is no access to any healthcare without "carte vitale" which you only get if you are registered worker and paying tax and social charges. Also, impossible to get anywhere to live without ID card and registering with local community, and there are rules about how many can be registered at same address. Similar rules in most other EU countries.

By contrast, in UK you can easily work on the black market. Nobody has ID cards so you can easily pretend to be somebody else to work, and as long as you keep your head down, you are unlikely to be caught. Also no rules preventing people living in overcrowded squats because you don't have to register your address. And if you get ill, the NHS will not turn you away even if you have never paid a penny of tax. So hardly a surprise they all want to go to UK.

So UK should sort out the reasons that make it so attractive to illegal migrants before they blame France (and EU) for not stopping people who do not want to stay in France from leaving, and blaming French police for not exercising powers which they don't have...

[Not_a_boffin]

And in addition, we need to amend the law to reduce/remove the litany of objections/obstacles to removals. Dublin was not the answer - rarely enforced because the immigration "industry" made it so difficult to do so.

The migrants keep coming because they perceive - correctly - that once here, they'll never be removed. Patel is trying to do something with the new bill to improve the situation, but is being fought tooth and nail by the "industry". In fairness, there need to be checks and balances against state overreach, but they need to be based in some form of logic rather than the pure theoretical they are now.

The other thing which is often omitted in the debate is that if the migration continues unabated, the source countries become ever more untenable.

[Herod]

Time the UK had another think about ID cards? Many people have ID cards for where they work, the military, NHS local government etc. As a 74 year-old volunteer, I have photo ID for my position. What is the problem?

[charliegolf]

Trim Stab, all clear. But sticking a knife in those dinghies comes with no redress against the authorities for all the reasons you gave. Every boat I've seen is grossly overloaded. that's a safety reason to not allow departure. The French don't want to keep them there.

[mmitch]

Also on FR24 there is a civilian drone operating out of Lydd airport. It patrols just the UK side of the boundry. The French don't want it their side it might see their navy 'escorting' them over.
mmitch.

[NutLoose]

Time the UK had another think about ID cards? Many people have ID cards for where they work, the military, NHS local government etc. As a 74 year-old volunteer, I have photo ID for my position. What is the problem?

Because they won’t work, you can pick up fake documents already to allow you to work, so you would be able to hide behind them, you would be better off retina scanning the population, dna sampling or fingerprinting, but in those cases those here illegally would slip through possibly. Terrorism is another excuse for them, but as the Tube and bus bombings were carried out by U.K. residents it negates the advantage as they would have been legitimate card carriers.

Personally I would allow illegals here to work, until they are booted out or accepted, at least they would be putting into the economy instead of taking out.

[Trim Stab]

Buy 4 or 5 still woiuld work out cheaper than using a A400

https://www.diamondaircraft.com/en/special-mission/aircraft/da42-mpp/overview/

They would indeed - in theory - be a cheap solution. The problem is structural. Frontex puts out competitive tenders for these sorts of operations in EU (not just handed out to tory MPs mates like in UK). It is very difficult for private companies to make money out of bidding for Frontex operations. There is a big capital cost fo acquiring and running a fleet of such aircraft, and then the contract is typically of short terms and is tendered out again at the end of the contract. Si there is no stability for private companies offering ISR aircraft, and margins are tiny. Also, Frontex is an EU operation to prevent people entering EU - not leaving - so really this is not a priority for Frontex.

So it comes back to UK government paying for them. The French would likely insist that they are based in France if they are patrolling the French coastline, and subject to French regulations, and EASA regulated and EASA AOC. Rather unlikely that the UK government would agree to set up a French company to run such an operation...

[Cornish Jack]

Trim Stab - inarguable summary ! :D
Why we Brits should expect the French to take action on our behalf, and for our sole benefit, is quite beyond me. Whingeing about other nations' lack of action for our benefit, when the Buffoon and his mindless supporters have 'taken back control', is beyond 'having cake and eating it' - it's just juvenile tantrums ... unsurprising, of course !
When Patel is the 'moving force' for action and the Immigration Minister is Foster, one's expectations should be low.
For any not familiar, Foster was one of the Tweedle-Dum - Tweedle-Dee pair who regularly inhabited the front bench furthest from the Speaker and leapt smartly to their feet, constantly, to make Government adoring interventions. The effort has borne fruit for Foster, as well, possibly, as producing well-honed leg muscles !!:bored:

[Trim Stab]

Trim Stab, all clear. But sticking a knife in those dinghies comes with no redress against the authorities for all the reasons you gave. Every boat I've seen is grossly overloaded. that's a safety reason to not allow departure. The French don't want to keep them there.

Grossly overloaded to make a channel crossing, yes. But not grossly overloaded just to go a few hundred metres offshore. Indeed you can just go swimming completely naked offshore if you want to...

The French police don't have the right to damage people's property without reason. They are allowed to slash the tents of illegal campers if they have been warned. But they can't just go around vandalising boats...

People in France are getting really fed up with the UK blaming them for a problem that is entirely created by UK, and which the French police have few powers to stop,and which is costing French taxpayer a lot of money (UK is not covering all the costs despite what you might read in UK press).

[melmothtw]

Time the UK had another think about ID cards? Many people have ID cards for where they work, the military, NHS local government etc. As a 74 year-old volunteer, I have photo ID for my position. What is the problem?

How exactly would ID cards prevent any of what is currently going on in the Channel?

[Trim Stab]

How exactly would ID cards prevent any of what is currently going on in the Channel?

Read the thread - ID cards make it harder to work in the black economy and get access to housing and healtcare, open bank accounts, get telephone contracts and all the other administration that is needed to make life viable and enjoyable.

In UK, people can easily live in the black economy - some estimates are that there are up to a million people in UK lliving illegally, working in the black economy (not paying tax or NI contributions) but lowering hourly wages for legal workers, and costing taxpayer money when they get ill and taken to hospital, or commit crime and are taken to prison.

You just can't do it so easily in France or elsewhere in EU, because we have to have ID cards. No ID means no bank account, no phone contract, no healthcare, no chance of legally working, no chance of legally renting.

[melmothtw]

ID cards have famously halted all illegal immigration into the EU, US, etc. Can see no problem with them working in the UK also.

[clareprop]

Concentrating on 'policing' the illegal immigrants seems like a complete waste of time. It seems to me the focus should be on the gangs who arrange the crossings. Treat them like organised drug runners and enemies of the state and set up a joint military force with Belgium, Netherlands, France and Italy - and eradicate them. No gangs, no crossings.

[Trim Stab]

ID cards have famously halted all illegal immigration into the EU, US, etc. Can see no problem with them working in the UK also.

They don't stop it completely, but they are a useful tool.

There is a movement in France - the "Gilet Noires" - of mostly francophone African illegal migrants who are demanding ID cards. They obviously don't get a lot of sympathy from French public or authorities. So a lot of them are trying to get to UK because they can easily work illegally in UK.

Personally I like having to carry my ID card in France. I don't see why people in UK are so opposed to them. If you are law abiding, they are useful.

[treadigraph]

Personally I like having to carry my ID card in France. I don't see why people in UK are so opposed to them. If you are law abiding, they are useful.

I was just asked to show some i/d to collect a package. Used my driving licence which, of course, I'm not obliged to have and don't have a current passport - a UK i/d card could be an asset but some people squeal in outrage whenever it is suggested. No idea why, I'd like one.

[Cornish Jack]

Concentrating on 'policing' the illegal immigrants seems like a complete waste of time. It seems to me the focus should be on the gangs who arrange the crossings. Treat them like organised drug runners and enemies of the state and set up a joint military force with Belgium, Netherlands, France and Italy - and eradicate them. No gangs, no crossings.
... and precisely which policing regime has stopped "organised drug-runners and enemies of the State" ????
From evidence, the only effective reduction in drug-running, comes from making drug use legal.
So ......... ?

[Herod]

An interesting suggestion in the letters page of today's Times. Any refugee or asylum seeker who provides the French authorities with information about the smuggler, that leads to a successful prosecution, would be granted permission to enter the UK.

[Geriaviator]

We've seen many pictures of French police watching the boat launches, particularly the front-page one of two policemen using their VW headlights to floodlight a large RIB launch by an estimated 45/50 athletic young men (oops, sorry I meant children). Many years back I saw a handful of police trying to contain 2000 rioters. It didn't end well, as most of the personnel who served in Northern Ireland can tell you.

[Ninthace]

Concentrating on 'policing' the illegal immigrants seems like a complete waste of time. It seems to me the focus should be on the gangs who arrange the crossings. Treat them like organised drug runners and enemies of the state and set up a joint military force with Belgium, Netherlands, France and Italy - and eradicate them. No gangs, no crossings.
That would create some interesting jurisdiction issues even within Europe and ignores the fact that the gangs are often based in the country of origin. Even if you succeed, you will find criminal nature abhors a lucrative vacuum and you end up playing an expensive version of whack-a-mole.
Then there is the issue that many of the groups are actually self financing.

No. the gangs and the boats are a symptom, not the disease. Eliminate the reasons for the migration, not the means.

[Ninthace]

We've seen many pictures of French police watching the boat launches, particularly the front-page one of two policemen using their VW headlights to floodlight a large RIB launch by an estimated 45/50 athletic young men (oops, sorry I meant children). Many years back I saw a handful of police trying to contain 2000 rioters. It didn't end well, as most of the personnel who served in Northern Ireland can tell you.
Please tell us, what law was being broken that would give the police the reason to intervene?

Equally, we have also seen pictures of the UK authorities helping the refugees ashore in the UK. Why are you not demanding they be thrown back in the ocean?

[Paying Guest]

a UK i/d card could be an asset but some people squeal in outrage whenever it is suggested. No idea why, I'd like one.

Trouble with asking that question on this forum is that most of us participants carried an ID card throughout our careers and had no problem with the concept, so there is unlikely to be anyone around who can present the opposing view. Have to say it never bothered me, and wouldn't today.

[Geriaviator]

Ninthace
Perhaps a grossly overloaded vessel? The French are not keen on wasting money on rescues, fair enough. Again long out of touch but I recall they charged for helo rescue of silly skiers and S&R for downed light aircraft. But my point is that two men are not going to stop a crowd of 50 who don't want to be stopped.

[Ninthace]

Ninthace
Perhaps a grossly overloaded vessel? The French are not keen on wasting money on rescues, fair enough. Again long out of touch but I recall they charged for helo rescue of silly skiers and S&R for downed light aircraft. But my point is that two men are not going to stop a crowd of 50 who don't want to be stopped.
Two men are not going to stop a large group doing anything that is not illegal, especially if the group, which might become a burden on the authorities, is trying to leave the country.

[wiggy]

I’m not sure it’s been mentioned in the UK press but there’s been some talk for some time on this side of the water that the smugglers have become very adept at trying to saturate the “defenses” at one or two points along the beaches in an attempt to reduce the ability of the Flics to interfere with operations….politico is carrying this story ATM


The people smugglers have become better organized, said Magnin, with several boats often setting off at the same time in operations that are “necessarily coordinated.” The crossings have also continued later into the year, whereas they used to pause during the winter months.

The French police patrols on the beach have grown in response, from less than 200 to 800 deployed officers on average daily, according to Laroye, drawing on more and more inland resources



https://www.politico.eu/article/people-smugglers-france-police-channel-migration/

[NutLoose]

They would indeed - in theory - be a cheap solution. The problem is structural. Frontex puts out competitive tenders for these sorts of operations in EU (not just handed out to tory MPs mates like in UK). It is very difficult for private companies to make money out of bidding for Frontex operations. There is a big capital cost fo acquiring and running a fleet of such aircraft, and then the contract is typically of short terms and is tendered out again at the end of the contract. Si there is no stability for private companies offering ISR aircraft, and margins are tiny. Also, Frontex is an EU operation to prevent people entering EU - not leaving - so really this is not a priority for Frontex.

So it comes back to UK government paying for them. The French would likely insist that they are based in France if they are patrolling the French coastline, and subject to French regulations, and EASA regulated and EASA AOC. Rather unlikely that the UK government would agree to set up a French company to run such an operation...


So take them on in the RAF / Army as we used to operate the islanders, I am sure they would be a cheaper solution than the A400 use and would be a cheap viable platform to use elsewhere, aiding police searches, maritime and on shore surveillance.

[Ninthace]

The UK Coast Guard has 4 fixed wing assets 3xCessna F406 and 1xCessna 404, I have seen at least one of these being used to patrol the Straits of Dover in the past.

[911slf]

Some are always going to make it. Most are not going to be sent back. If we showed willing by setting up an immigration/asylum centre in France and agreed to take "N" where "N" is somewhat less than the number making it anyway, then I think the EU would accept deportations of those who turn up in England without asylum papers.

Better than impotent rage, n'est ce pas?

[arf23]

Surely asylum is for people escaping persecution in their own country? So if they've travelled through X number of European countries to get to the UK that makes them economic migrants looking for the best deal, and not just safety? If it can be shown they've travelled through a safe country, for example landing on a UK beach from France or Belgium, then it should be an automatic failure. If they truly have needs to be in the UK after escaping persecution then they can apply properly from whatever first safe country they're reached. Or is this too simple?

[Ninthace]

Surely asylum is for people escaping persecution in their own country? So if they've travelled through X number of European countries to get to the UK that makes them economic migrants looking for the best deal, and not just safety? If it can be shown they've travelled through a safe country, for example landing on a UK beach from France or Belgium, then it should be an automatic failure. If they truly have needs to be in the UK after escaping persecution then they can apply properly from whatever first safe country they're reached. Or is this too simple?
Yes. Given the vast majority that make it are allowed to remain when they apply, despite Ms Patel, there is clearly a case to answer. The law is what it is, not what you would like it to be.

[Not_a_boffin]

Yes. Given the vast majority that make it are allowed to remain when they apply, despite Ms Patel, there is clearly a case to answer. The law is what it is, not what you would like it to be.

To be fair, it's less a question of being allowed to remain, than a question of endless appeals and legal obfuscation caused by the current wording of the legislation. Which is what Patel is trying to change. The ECHR (and its instantiation in UK law) was not designed or drafted to reflect current reality. There is a decent case for renegotiation / redrafting to remove the loopholes that allow endless - often frivolous - appeals. But until it is the problem will remain.

For the avoidance of doubt that's not a call for ban 'em all, keep them out, but the suggestion that there is a difference between asylum seekers at risk of persecution in their home nation and economic migrants who are looking for "a better life" (for want of a better phrase). It is a practical and social reality that the country is unwilling to continue to accept illegal immigration (that's what it constitutes) and is is also highly detrimental in the longer term to those nations from where these people originate.

No simple answers - and certainly not turning them back at sea with the Navy. You end up becoming a de facto taxi service - as evidenced by the EU mission in the Med.

[Trim Stab]

Surely asylum is for people escaping persecution in their own country? So if they've travelled through X number of European countries to get to the UK that makes them economic migrants looking for the best deal, and not just safety? If it can be shown they've travelled through a safe country, for example landing on a UK beach from France or Belgium, then it should be an automatic failure. If they truly have needs to be in the UK after escaping persecution then they can apply properly from whatever first safe country they're reached. Or is this too simple?

The EU does have a law which basically says that they only make one asylum claim in the first safe EU country they set foot in. They are fingerprinted, then the data is share amongst all other EU member states to stop asylum “shoppers” going from country to country to make claims. But UK didn’t want to be part of that system - hence another reason why UK is such a draw for failed asylum claimants.

The EU is also introducing new electronic border controls from next year which will make it much harder for non EU citizens to overstay visas - the main source of illegal migration. At least it will help reduce the numbers of migrants arriving that way. Any who do overstay their visa will have the choice of deportation and never being allowed back to EU again, or trying to make it to UK. So I suspect the channel problem is going to get worse next summer as there are many visa overstayers already in Europe, mostly from Africa. Again, UK did not want to be part of that system either.

Personally I can’t wait to see the “outrage” of the Brexit press when from next year UK visitors to the EU will have to pay for an ESTA visa and have their fingerprints taken, and queue for hours at border crossings unless they do it online in advance.

[Ninthace]

You mind find this interesting
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01403

"In 2020, there were around 6 asylum applications for every 10,000 people living in the UK. Across the EU27 there were 11 asylum applications for every 10,000 people. When compared with EU countries, the UK ranked 14th out of the individual countries in terms of the number of asylum applications per capita."

Edit to add:
Is it time this thread wandered over to Jet Blast?

[dagenham]

[QUOTE
Personally I can’t wait to see the “outrage” of the Brexit press when from next year UK visitors to the EU will have to pay for an ESTA visa and have their fingerprints taken, and queue for hours at border crossings unless they do it online in advance.[/QUOTE]


we already do have to queue for sometime now as we have to use all others in the eu. It is a tad annoying that eu, ch, us and Korea etc can use e gates in Heathrow. Perhaps some reciprocity would not go a miss

[Trim Stab]

) and is is also highly detrimental in the longer term to those nations from where these people originate..

This is absolutely correct. People who are genuinely forced to flee by persecution are generally better educated than average, and they are a long term loss to their source country.

Most economic migrants are fleeing because they are illiterate, innumerate, have no qualifications, and have no chance of a job in their own country. So they are also mostly completely useless to European societies. Any migrant from these countries (particularly African countries) who is sufficiently educated, honest, literate and numerate to make any sort of contribution in Europe should be automatically returned to their home country where they are in great shortage. I think unemployment in Nigeria is about 40% - but having worked there for many years it is also very difficult to recruit competent and honest locals to fill even mildly technical positions. There is simultaneously mass unemployment and labour shortages in a lot of Africa.

[SPIT]

Didn't the German Army in 1940/44 prevent anyone from entering the country at the coast ??? why can't the french prevent people from using their beaches to invade other countries such as the UK. There are enough people in the military. who do not seem to do much.

[Ninthace]

Didn't the German Army in 1940/44 prevent anyone from entering the country at the coast ??? why can't the french prevent people from using their beaches to invade other countries such as the UK. There are enough people in the military. who do not seem to do much.
By the same token, the RN could scoop them up as they enter our territorial waters. Then the RN could hand them over to the Army who could force march them in columns to an airfield where they could be loaded into RAF aircraft to be flown back to their countries of origin where they could be dropped off. How's that for Jointery? And totally under UK control!
Well you started the stupidity SPIT and at least I got it back to the military and aviation :ok:

Are there actually any serious, humane and workable solutions out there?

[NutLoose]

Spit I somehow think mining the beaches and low watermark would go down with Joe public, neither would the miles of barbed wire or concrete bunkers.

[NutLoose]

The UK Coast Guard has 4 fixed wing assets 3xCessna F406 and 1xCessna 404, I have seen at least one of these being used to patrol the Straits of Dover in the past.

Based at EGNX in the middle of the country, that makes sense when you realise it might be needed either west or east.

https://www.rvl-group.com/specialist-operations/

[Tartiflette Fan]

If only we were still members of the Dublin convention !

So all illegal immigrants pre 01/01/2021 were all returned to France ( for onward travel) were they ?

[Tartiflette Fan]

The EU does have a law which basically says that they only make one asylum claim in the first safe EU country they set foot in. They are fingerprinted, then the data is share amongst all other EU member states to stop asylum “shoppers” going from country to country to make claims. But UK didn’t want to be part of that system -

Why would you need that if they are caught in a lorry arriving from France ? Rather obvious that they have travelled through numerous safe countries. That apart, many attempt/refuse to give fingerprints ( this is a legal right in France ) which is why so many of the determined migrants around Calais refuse to have any contact ( like hostel accommodation ) with French authorities.

[Equivocal]

Concentrating on 'policing' the illegal immigrants seems like a complete waste of time. It seems to me the focus should be on the gangs who arrange the crossings. Treat them like organised drug runners and enemies of the state and set up a joint military force with Belgium, Netherlands, France and Italy - and eradicate them. No gangs, no crossings.
While Ninthace makes valid points that the boats and gangs are symptoms of the problem, in the absence of any immediate way of addressing the structural problems which create these symptoms, clareprop's approach appeals.

Although there are lots of comments saying that no laws are being broken and so the authorities are unable to take action, I note (from the BBC website (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-59412329)) that following the 27 deaths last week, the French interior minister said 'Five people have been arrested in connection with the fatal crossing. Mr Darmanin said regional prosecutors had launched an investigation into aggravated manslaughter.' So, something can be done by the authorities if one or more people die. Surely there are other rules about endangering or something similarly generic that can be enforced if only 'they' decided to?

[nomilk]

Surely asylum is for people escaping persecution in their own country? So if they've travelled through X number of European countries to get to the UK that makes them economic migrants looking for the best deal, and not just safety? If it can be shown they've travelled through a safe country, for example landing on a UK beach from France or Belgium, then it should be an automatic failure. If they truly have needs to be in the UK after escaping persecution then they can apply properly from whatever first safe country they're reached. Or is this too simple?
Switzerland should have taken all 1930/40s refugees since it was probably the first country they could have reached. Who decides what country is safe for which person? Bombing, famine is obviously not enough, persecution is the only thing to escape from? Look into Vietnam etc.

So yes, more than too simple.

[Ninthace]

Instead of batting around personal opinions of what the current law says, have a look at
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9031/
You could say the boats are another Brexit Benefit

[ersa]

1. When a Government is obsessed with open borders.
2. Refugee and Asylum seekers human rights act needs to be re written , if the UN don't like the idea, resign from the convention.
3. Remove all foreign aid from countries that refuse to take back known and provable refugees.

I.D cards are a non starter.

Watch for the New Climate refugees that is being pushed by the UN... The World is in Big trouble.

[Ninthace]

1. When a Government is obsessed with open borders.
2. Refugee and Asylum seekers human rights act needs to be re written , if the UN don't like the idea, resign from the convention.
3. Remove all foreign aid from countries that refuse to take back known and provable refugees.

I.D cards are a non starter.

Watch for the New Climate refugees that is being pushed by the UN... The World is in Big trouble.

That seems to be fairly silly set of statements. 1 makes no sense. 2. What Refugee and Asylum seekers act? You want the UK to give up its seat in the UN and ion the Security Council? Seriously?. 3 Refugees have the right to stay, It is non-refugees that are the issue. A government, having made people refugees, is hardly likely to take them back. What about refugees from countries not in receipt of aid?

Edit:

Forgot to add. How will.any of that stop a single boat?

[ersa]

That seems to be fairly silly set of statements. 1 makes no sense. 2. What Refugee and Asylum seekers act? You want the UK to give up its seat in the UN and ion the Security Council? Seriously?. 3 Refugees have the right to stay, It is non-refugees that are the issue. A government, having made people refugees, is hardly likely to take them back. What about refugees from countries not in receipt of aid?

Edit:

Forgot to add. How will.any of that stop a single boat?

Refugees only have rights , because of the rules in place , re write the rules , no one is saying leave the UN, just the convention of refugees , because right now , the UK is powerless to send any back anywhere under the UN rules .

[nomilk]

3. Remove all foreign aid from countries that refuse to take back known and provable refugees.

Not that much pressure left then that the UK could use, since the aid budget has been cut already.

[ersa]

Not that much pressure left then that the UK could use, since the aid budget has been cut already.

11 billion pounds on foreign aid.

China
India

And would you believe it, Pakistan, Ethiopia, Afghanistan, Yemen and Nigeria, Syria, pretty much where the biggest foreign aid is spent, and where the refugees come from.

Don't forget Bob Geldof was raising funds for Ethiopia in the early 80's , nothing has changed .

[Bueno Hombre]

We can hope that this problem will be solved, soon, because when the law fails, people will be tempted to take the law into their own hands.........just like the illegal immigrants are doing now. Asylum Law is anachronistic in these days of economic migrants who have done nothing to improve their own countries. If the proposed surveillance aircraft is crewed by Frontex personnel then it will only assist the safe departures from the beaches of France by alerting the French Navy to safely escort the dinghies to the mid channel border with UK.

[Ninthace]

Definitely time this thread found it’s way to Jet Blast. Any military aviation content long gone.

[Bueno Hombre]

Definitely time this thread found it’s way to Jet Blast. Any military aviation content long gone.
No. Military Aviation funding and actions depend on home country support.

[minigundiplomat]

A330 every night from Manston to Western Sahara. Have a nice life.

[Vortex Hoop]

If only we were still members of the Dublin convention !
The fact we left it matters not one jot.

It still applies in France, and means that any claim for asylum should have been made in the first safe country they arrived in.

[Vortex Hoop]

Definitely time this thread found it’s way to Jet Blast. Any military aviation content long gone.
Nope. Still relevant to defending our borders using Sentinel, RPAS etc.

[Vortex Hoop]

If you look at FR24, from time to time, you will see a UK Coastguard aircraft flying racetracks over the Channel.
Money well spent - obviously...

[Recc]

The fact we left it matters not one jot.

It still applies in France, and means that any claim for asylum should have been made in the first safe country they arrived in.

The Dublin regulation provided a system for deciding how applications for asylum should be processed within the EU. If an asylum seeker chooses to leave the EU (which they are perfectly entitled to do), then they are de-facto no longer applying for asylum in the EU and the regulation does not apply. From the UKs point of view, the Dublin regulation gave us a legal route that we could use to return some asylum seekers to other EU states. The fact that we left, removes this possibility which is why it is relevant now. If I recall correctly, one of the leave campaign's reasons for leaving the EU was that it would give us back control over our borders. Given that, it seems odd that the same politicians are now whinging about France not doing enough; isn't this what they asked for?

[Ninthace]

Nope. Still relevant to defending our borders using Sentinel, RPAS etc.
If that was what being discussed I would concur but the thread has deteriorated to the rights, wrongs and barrack room lawyers interpretation of laws and international conventions on refugees and migration with a leavening of input from arm chair generals

[Asturias56]

Problem is that the Border Force and the armed services have to operate in that legal environment Ninthace.................... it's not simple at all (whatever some people in Downing Street wish)

[arf23]

It's actually come down to the Military/Police has absolutely nothing to offer if the political environment is FUBAR. Just like many previous foreign wars. Vietnam should have taught us this.

[admikar]

Why don't use Australia's experience and transport any person that can not prove it's refugee status to some nice place for "processing"? Falklands or Farroe islands sound nice, especialy this time of year. And any country that objects to those conditions is more than welcome to pick them up.