Accused Pilot [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

Foxxster

25th Nov 2021, 21:53

Simple

Pilots are meant to be a trusted profession, at times making it into the top 3 on the “Most Trusted Professions” list:

Australia's most trusted professions (https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/australias-most-trusted-professions-20110622-1gek7.html)

If a brickie’s labourer or a traffic controller allegedly commits a murder no one really cares, but one of Australia’s “most trusted professions” will attract attention.

It would be the same if a Doctor was alleged to have committed one, as they are a trusted professions their job description would probably be in the headline too.

this.

add in the fact that pilots take the lives of hundreds of people into their hands every time they turn up for work. And yet this one allegedly had no qualms taking two lives. I think the public would be thinking how they would feel flying on a flight, putting their lives in his hands when he had allegedly taken others.

Car RAMROD

25th Nov 2021, 23:20

It would be the same if a Doctor was alleged to have committed one, as they are a trusted professions their job description would probably be in the headline too.

Job description, maybe.
but not employer name, over and over again.

why is this guy not just “a pilot”?

J* legal and PR must be annoyed I would think!

Office Update

25th Nov 2021, 23:21

PJ,

I agree with your posting .. it is what it is.
I posted on a previous thread alas the thread was closed down. Hopefully not because of what I said. I assume not as I did not receive any cautionary PM's from a moderator.
I knew the pilot many years ago, he is an agro person and a loner. Mind you it all depends in which context you know the person.
I always believed the coroner erred in his decision on the death of the said pilot's first wife. But the coroner can only base his decision on the information placed before him.

mickjoebill

25th Nov 2021, 23:25

In a brief hearing this morning he was charged with two counts of murder. He did not apply for bail.
The next hearing is set for May 2022. An ABC reporter said the distant date is due to the complexity of the case.
Whatever the legal reasons, the delay gives police more time to find the victims and the missing trailer.

Mjb

Car RAMROD

25th Nov 2021, 23:40

I posted on a previous thread alas the thread was closed down. Hopefully not because of what I said.

Nope, not closed, it just got moved to Jet Blast.

logansi

26th Nov 2021, 00:47

In response to the original post.

This crime has been one of the most high-profile and confusing cases in recent times in Victoria. The fact that a person who worked in one of the most trusted professions, who was well off and who had over his life literally had thousands of people in his hands was charged just adds another layer to the whole story.
People often associate murder with a drug addict, 'down and outs' with mental health problems, the polar opposite to what they see in a pilot.

The fact his job is being put at the forefront of the story should in a way make us all prouder to pull on the uniform, reminding us that the general public holds us in high regard and that to them we aren't just glorified, bus drivers.

Australopithecus

26th Nov 2021, 02:04

This guy should have been behind bars about 22 years ago. And I understand that the Victorian Police are likely going to reopen the investigation of the murder of his wife. And yes, regarding the initial post, anything that violates the public trust that we enjoy is instant news.

43Inches

26th Nov 2021, 02:08

Best to give any information you have directly to the authorities and restrain speculation here, being an active court case now.

Australopithecus

26th Nov 2021, 02:12

Best to give any information you have directly to the authorities and restrain speculation here, being an active court case now.

I have, as have many others. They are quite aware, hence the deep dive into the past, including civil atrocities.

John Citizen

26th Nov 2021, 02:37

The fact his job is being put at the forefront of the story should in a way make us all prouder to pull on the uniform, reminding us that the general public holds us in high regard and that to them we aren't just glorified, bus drivers.

Sorry for the thread drift but it's a real shame many pilots these days don't see themselves this way and have no pride in their uniform. I'm sure it's a reflection on their morale with the company but don't let it affect the professional image the public look up to.

V-Jet

26th Nov 2021, 02:39

Interesting AP. The car is odd. It's supposed to be a white '97 Patrol according to the rego. It's not white. It's not a '97 Patrol. Police were looking for a blue Patrol that is now beige that should be white (and, at least) carrying plates from a different model. Why so many changes? How many other people change their cars and/or plates like that? Although, if you are going to kill someone, as crew, I'm sure I'm not alone in suggesting you do it in your free time, ie: whilst not at work. Best to keep your hobby on the down low, far less dramatic!

Torukmacto

26th Nov 2021, 03:50

Do you need to be a nice person to be a pilot ?

V-Jet

26th Nov 2021, 03:55

Note to self. Never camp with Torukmacto.....

Icarus2001

26th Nov 2021, 04:29

Is it legal to stand an employee down for being accused of a crime?

DutchRoll

26th Nov 2021, 04:35

An Airbus check Captain doesn’t fit the murderer profile. I nearly fell over when I heard the news reporting a checkie was arrested.
What's the profile of a murderer? History is littered with convicted killers who didn't fit the stereotype.

Ted Bundy was known as completely charming, a volunteer at a suicide helpline, tertiary educated, and murdered 33 women.
Richar Angelo was a nurse and volunteer firefighter who poisoned a number of his patients.
Harold Shipman was a respected UK doctor who murdered 15 of his patients then falsified medical records to indicate they were in poor health.

Same goes for "sudden killers" - people who have no previous record or pattern of poor behaviour. I haven't even got started on that one but it's a long, long list. Stereotypes are a powerful bias in our minds but ultimately the evidence either shows that they did, or they didn't.

SASKATOON9999

26th Nov 2021, 04:42

Dare I say, pilots are still human and thus, just as susceptible to the torments of life, and ultimately capable of the most heinous of crimes as anybody else -
Numerous pilots have been charged, and jailed for Murder, Rape, Child Abuse over the years.
For purposes of this debate, lets realise 3 of the most horrific acts of mass murderers of all time, just so happened to be committed by pilots!
Gameel Al-Batouti / Egypt Air 990
Andreas Lubitz / Germanwings 9525
Tsu Way Ming / Silk Air 185

Transition Layer

26th Nov 2021, 04:47

Is it legal to stand an employee down for being accused of a crime?
Just hypothesising here, but maybe it’s because he would no longer be able to hold an ASIC while the investigation takes place?

Paragraph377

26th Nov 2021, 05:40

I think it is ludicrous to think that a pilot is not capable of a heinous crime. It may be a noble and respected profession but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t a few fruitcakes out there sitting in the left and right hand seat. Andreas Lubitz comes to mind. A complete headcase who committed the unspeakable. Our society is now filled with angry people, road ragers, car park rage, shopping queue rage and who knows, maybe old mate was having a wonderful time camping when Pops and his mistress pulled up to camp right on top of him, complete with an annoying drone. Who knows, time will tell, but it certainly doesn’t look good.

MJA Chaser

26th Nov 2021, 06:02

Is it legal to stand an employee down for being accused of a crime?
He is in custody so not able to perform his job.......

43Inches

26th Nov 2021, 06:30

There would be several reasons it would be legal and appropriate to stand an employee down. Most obvious is safety in regard to the employee being able to do their job adequately while under the high pressure of standing accused, whether guilty or not. Then you have other issues such as what if the accused decides to do something stupid to evade capture at some point, etc...

Now stand down without pay is another issue, I assume that is more what you would debate.

Once you are charged with a serious offence and remanded in custody I assume pay would be suspended until resolved.

FLGOFF

26th Nov 2021, 07:09

Many would also say that Zaharie Shah of MH370 can be added to the list alongside Lubitz. There was a senior RCAF pilot who ended up being a serial killer as well, there's a detailed video showing the police interview on YouTube. Whilst you can have these types of people from any background or profession, it's easy to understand the shock factor of it all. I would argue that generally most killers do fit the "stereotype", however it's easy to name a list of those who don't because those ones naturally get more attention.

I agree with 43Inches. I think an employee in any field would be suspended under the circumstances. On the pay issue, for what it's worth, the Fair Work Act s.524-525 states..
An employer may stand down an employee during a period in which the employee cannot usefully be employed because of a number of circumstances including:
-A stoppage of work for any cause for which the employer cannot reasonably be held responsible.

If an employer stands down an employee during a period in accordance with s.524 of the Fair Work Act then the employer is not required to make payments to the employee for that period.

Section 524 is intended to relieve an employer of the obligation to pay wages to employees who cannot be usefully employed in certain limited circumstances.

However, the EBA may change that, I don't know. I know police who are being investigated are typically suspended with pay.

Iron Bar

26th Nov 2021, 07:11

Stand down aside, group security has absolute discretion to withhold or withdraw ASIC approval. Don’t need to be convicted of anything. No ASIC, can’t work.

Lead Balloon

26th Nov 2021, 07:15

“absolute discretion”?

So group security can withhold or withdraw an ASIC on the basis that they tossed a coin and it came up ‘heads’ or a person’s middle name starts with a vowel? Not “absolute” methinks.

airdualbleedfault

26th Nov 2021, 08:04

Yeah not accused, charged. Big difference.

On another note I was just thinking how well the Qantarse physc testing works :hmm:

Transition Layer

26th Nov 2021, 08:19

Yeah not accused, charged. Big difference.

On another note I was just thinking how well the Qantarse physc testing works :hmm:

You’re assuming you have to pass the Qantas psych test to get into Jetstar! :}

Iron Bar

26th Nov 2021, 08:54

43Inches

26th Nov 2021, 09:25

My understanding is that's not the case, while the ASIC issuer has the right to revoke access, it has to be reasonable as it's affecting an employees work rights. Unless the allegation holds reasonable safety or security risks as per the terms of issue there is no grounds to remove or deny an ASIC. However once convicted of a serious crime such as murder, that's pretty much it and can no longer be held. Being accused of or charged, still is a position of innocence until proven guilty. Of course if you are accused of wanting to harm an aircraft or airport, then you will probably have access denied until some investigation is concluded. Much the same as you will not be fired/sacked until convicted, at which point you will lose your job and ASIC.

maverick22

26th Nov 2021, 09:35

So if I apply to Jetstar in the future, maybe I won’t mention I like camping…

KABOY

26th Nov 2021, 09:37

Pilots are meant to be a trusted profession, at times making it into the top 3 on the “Most Trusted Professions” list:

Psychopaths will not take their own life, they take the lives of others. History has shown some of the most ruthless killers have been well respected and educated professionals. These individuals have the ability to change personalties and suppress any guilt associated with heinous crimes.

It appears this individual had some personality traits that may have raised concerns, but he crafted his skill well enough to be promoted into positions of power.

I'm sure now we will hear more about his past, and the red flags that were ignored.

Iron Bar

26th Nov 2021, 09:42

43”

Could be elsewhere, not so at QF group.

Jetstream67

26th Nov 2021, 10:01

Is it legal to stand an employee down for being accused of a crime?
Yes if they pose a flight risk

43Inches

26th Nov 2021, 10:15

Could be elsewhere, not so at QF group.

ASIC issuers are a delegation from the Office of Home Affairs. The basic rules state that if you have an ASIC denied or canceled you have a right to review and appeal via the AAT. If QANTAS breaches the guidelines/rules they would be at risk of losing their delegation.

Iron Bar

26th Nov 2021, 10:22

Don’t believe me, don’t care. Just watch what you get up to if you hold a QF ASIC. Have a look for the policy, you won’t find it. Not published to staff.

Duck Pilot

26th Nov 2021, 10:30

Even though the guy hasn’t been proven guilty, the event does clearly articulate that potentially the physic assessments tests and the ASIC background tests are ineffective and are just a tick in the box exercise.

The aviation industry is pretty small in Australia, anyone in the know can easily get any good or bad intel on any pilot if they try hard enough, particularly if they have the contacts and have been around a while.

morno

26th Nov 2021, 10:33

Yeah not accused, charged. Big difference.

On another note I was just thinking how well the Qantarse physc testing works :hmm:

I was thinking the exact same thing :E

43Inches

26th Nov 2021, 10:49

Don’t believe me, don’t care. Just watch what you get up to if you hold a QF ASIC. Have a look for the policy, you won’t find it. Not published to staff.

Its quite possible QF operates to its own laws, however the issue and cancellation of an ASIC is strictly governed by the transport security act. There is clear laws regarding when a ASIC may or must be cancelled, only the secretary of the office of home affairs can adjust the reasons. Reasons for cancellation by issuing body; no longer require access to secure area, breach of ASIC holder conditions, or conviction of aviation security related offence. Issuer must report all cancellations to the secretary and the secretary can force an issuer to reinstate an applicant. I only say this as you would not want someone to be able to just cancel your security access for no proper reason, especially just an allegation.

Traffic_Is_Er_Was

26th Nov 2021, 11:07

Is it legal to stand an employee down for being accused of a crime?
I don't really think a company that will stand an employee down for not being vaccinated cares about such trifles as presumption of innocence.

Dog on Cat3

26th Nov 2021, 11:19

I see and hear in the Media a JetStar Pilot has been arrested for an alleged crime.
Why do journalists use " sensationalism " headings such as this?
These so called journalists just have to embellish the story to grab attention so it seems.
One would be sure that if he was a taxi driver that would not have been noteworthy enough!!
Anything to make a story better even if it is irrelevant.
Very poor reporting IMOP.:=

As a journalist (air and road) I will step into the Lions Den that is Mr Thread Starter and try to answer his questions; my name is Daniel, after all.
Some here on Pprune may remember me as 'Dantruck' from long ago, but mine was one of those seemingly lost during the mighty changeover. But I digress

The question was first asked: "Why do journalists use " sensationalism " headings such as this?" The answer is to grab your attention. As a writer, my first thought is to get your attention, not least against all the other things demanding your gaze...your iPhone, YouTube, Pornhub.com, etc, etc.

The next question was: "These so called journalists just have to embellish the story to grab attention so it seems." My answer is, sir, you just answered your own question, which rather possess the question: why did you ask when you already knew? That said, asking is always a good thing. Sometimes it can be worth shaking the tree in case something interesting might fall out. As for being. a "so called" journalist; that might be similar to being a 'so-called' pilot. It is true there are journalists (and pilots) of varying degree, but history tells us they largely are, or they are not. In all truth there is no such thing as a 'so-called' anything.

And, true, were he a mere taxi driver - or dare I say, a plumber [see: the footballer Sala crash here on pprune] then, no, absolutely no-one would be interested, would they?

Point is: the job of pilot is a trusted, magnificent being; someone slightly higher up society's list of the great and the good. Therefore, when such a person screws up it is of course more interesting to the newspaper-buying public. That much is clear to most, if not to the originator of this post. Yet, we must not criticise him for asking, for questioning, because it is only by that action twats like me may be held to account. A wise man once stated the only stupid question was the one never asked.

Latterly: "Anything to make a story better even if it is irrelevant." I hope the above makes clear it is/was relevant given the wider issue regarding our trust in those flying us and our loved ones to and fro.

And finally: "Very poor reporting IMOP". What was 'very poor' about it, exactly? It was factually correct, was it not? Never forget the reader bears their own responsibility...you cannot blame everything on others, aka, those damned journo's. Everyone has it in their power to read and dismiss if said story stinks. The next morning that same individual will then decide to buy the same newspaper, or - shock horror - choose an alternative. My point is Mr Thread Starter should not be so quick as to dismiss the intelligence of other readers, just as no journalist should ever underestimate the intelligence of the said, same reader, We all do so at our peril.

Hope that helps...,

Dan

Icarus2001

26th Nov 2021, 12:28

. Yeah not accused, charged. Big difference. That is exactly what charged means FFS. You are accused of committing an act or crime, the police charge the suspect, they then have to prove that in court unless the defendant pleads guilty.
Which part don’t you understand?
My point was that being accused of a crime is a flimsy justification for standing an employee down. Concern for distraction and flight safety is valid.

nonsense

26th Nov 2021, 14:53

...There was a senior RCAF pilot who ended up being a serial killer as well, there's a detailed video showing the police interview on YouTube...
Russell Williams (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Williams_(criminal)).
Youtube search (https://www.google.com/search?q=Russell+Williams+youtube&client=firefox-b-d&ei=kQKhYeXkG6mfseMPoN21oAY&ved=0ahUKEwil8b-Lsbb0AhWpT2wGHaBuDWQQ4dUDCA0&uact=5&oq=Russell+Williams+youtube&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBwgAEEcQsAMyBwgAEEcQsAMyBwgAEEcQsAMyB wgAEEcQsAMyBwgAEEcQsAMyBwgAEEcQsAMyBwgAEEcQsAMyBwgAEEcQsANKB AhBGABQlgdYlgdgqg1oAXACeACAAQCIAQCSAQCYAQCgAQHIAQjAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz)

matkat

26th Nov 2021, 18:11

FLGOFF

26th Nov 2021, 19:27

I very much doubt that the general public are aware what a TRI/TRE actually is.
I think most can deduce that an instructor/examiner at an airline is not a junior position.

EPIRB

26th Nov 2021, 20:21

That is exactly what charged means FFS. You are accused of committing an act or crime, the police charge the suspect, they then have to prove that in court unless the defendant pleads guilty.
Which part don’t you understand?
My point was that being accused of a crime is a flimsy justification for standing an employee down. Concern for distraction and flight safety is valid.
I assume that it is a it hard to perform any useful duties from within the confines of the Melbourne Remand Centre.

RodH

26th Nov 2021, 20:30

Dan
Some of what you say makes sense and I agree with you but some does not , at least me me anyway.
In para. 3 I did not ask a question I made and observation.
Para 5 . I think you seem to use a bit too much praise to describe a pilots job Ie. " magnificent being ' still I guess that's journalistic licence and that's your right. As a Pilot I would like to think you are right but alas I do not.
Lastly. I still think it's " poor reporting " as it's just a lot of "attention grabbing headline wording " and not really necessary but I guess you think it is as is your right but I don't.

Lead Balloon

26th Nov 2021, 20:30

mrdeux

26th Nov 2021, 20:40

There was a senior RCAF pilot who ended up being a serial killer as well, there's a detailed video showing the police interview on YouTube. Whilst you can have these types of people from any background or profession, it's easy to understand the shock factor of it all. I would argue that generally most killers do fit the "stereotype", however it's easy to name a list of those who don't because those ones naturally get more attention.

Look up Colonel Russell Williams, RCAF.

43Inches

26th Nov 2021, 20:53

There is some quite easy to understand reasoning of why journalists promote with sensationalism. A journalist earns money through being popular, that is, a news group will contract or hire them based on how popular a story could be. Popularity, as in readership or views, translates directly into subscriptions and advertising revenue, these are companies after all. When a news story breaks unless you have an exclusive interview, you are just covering something that almost anyone can get access to, therefore to make some difference to just reading off the news in boring monotonous fashion you have to jazz it up to sell it for you or your company to stand out. Emotive and persuasive writing are part of English 101. Now apart from us being mystical, magical beings that glitter in sunlight and bath naked by moon beams, pilots are perceived by the press as a closed shop, and a sort of elite white collar mob as well as generally trustworthy and upstanding citizens. The headlines are not an opportunity to drag the profession down, its quite simply twanging on the community heart strings of 'how could this be' and leaving more questions as to 'why'. The 'why' question will leave readership hanging for more information and more sales.

I don't think anyone will climb on a J* flight and sweat in fear that if they go to the loo a criminally insane Captain is waiting there to shiv them, or worse. At best the oldies who comment on why there is a 'woman' at the controls or a high school student might be comforted its not a 50+ year old male psychopath.

Things that drag a profession down, watching scruffy, unkempt, out of uniform employees walking around like they are kids in a schoolyard. Throwing a craft around like a war hero evading zeros with passengers on board doesn't impress them either. The public want a clean well edumacated smooth flying fit looking professional up front and don't want to remember the flight for anything other than a good latte or sparkling beverage they drank. The odd criminal in the job doesn't drag us all down.

RodH

26th Nov 2021, 22:30

It's quite easy to understand why Journalists do this type of thing and I guess I should not have " asked why " but should have said that I don't think its warranted. A bit more thought before the typing would have been a bit better in my posting.
Having said that IMOP I still think it's rather poor reporting but I suppose the Journo's have to make a dollar or two with their " attention grabbing ' wording and nothing will change them.

43Inches

26th Nov 2021, 22:42

I agree with you on how they can overstate things quite often and move into the blatantly wrong or cringe areas just to get a response. However I also see it as a necessary evil, freedom of the press and their right to express opinions, right or wrong is critical to our freedoms and democracy. If we start to get to touchy on what can and can't be covered and how its covered, well it gets 'covered up'. The main issue is to take the theatrics and attention grabbing for the show it is and read what the real story is from informed sources. Imagine what governments and others would have got away with since ww1 without press freedoms and universal coverage, it plays a big part in letting the masses hold those in power accountable. Although it can also be used for bad, but thats what comes with it.

BTW with the same freedoms we have as much right to criticise the press when they are wrong and put forward alternate ideas, like this site allows. Some articles may be intentionally crossing lines to promote debate on a subject, that is what the author is hoping for. Others might be trying to assist the investigation by getting information to as many as possible for leads, so a big sensational headline can grab more in. So it might not always be only about the cash. There are also journalists out there who do it for morals, ethics and trying to help others, not just for the headlines, the headlines are a tool.

Capt Claret

26th Nov 2021, 22:54

Torukmacto

26th Nov 2021, 23:28

He should get paid any outstanding holiday pay , sick leave (?) then LWOP for maybe 2 years while it’s sorted ?

Yes , journalists write to grab attention they can also write to get access to the chairman’s lounge ? Journalists also write what Murdoch wants to read .

chimbu warrior

27th Nov 2021, 00:19

As for being. a "so called" journalist; that might be similar to being a 'so-called' pilot

Generalising about journalists is no more helpful than generalising about pilots. Consider that journalists uncovered the following :-

the My Lai massacre (young úns might have to Google that)
Watergate
Abu Ghraib
various dodgy events in Queensland that led to the Fitzgerald commission
News of the World (managers not journalists) instigation of phone-tapping in the UK

We know there are good and bad eggs in every profession, but fortunately the bad eggs are few in number.

neville_nobody

27th Nov 2021, 00:46

I would imagine regardless of the outcome I highly doubt there will be a job there. The company would rather pay an individual out and not return in this case.

So what happens if he is found not guilty? Or it gets thrown out of court or Police decide that there isn't enough evidence or they have the wrong guy?? You should not be fired just because the Police think you MAY have committed a crime.

Some sort of leave until the matter is decided would be a more justifiable position.

What was 'very poor' about it, exactly? It was factually correct, was it not?

Factual but biased. The guy has only be charged and they don't even have a body at this point. The couple could still be alive for all we know.

Gnadenburg

27th Nov 2021, 01:33

Throwing a craft around like a war hero evading zeros with passengers on board doesn't impress them either.

Right up until the pax need/want a Sully-type up front. Being able to fly accurately and smoothly, whether a high-speed descent, around the pattern or hand flying a raw data ILS was fast becoming a lost art where I was flying last ( and we didn't wear our hats )

Anyways, back on topic, newspapers are correct about his elite bushcraft. Did a Tassie wilderness expedition looking for Tassie tigers and have some great snaps ( no you can't have them Murdoch press ). So many innocent parties and who can forget what the trashy newspapers did a few years back with the young court clerk in a relationship with an older magistrate. Committed suicide and not an apology to be had.

Matt48

27th Nov 2021, 04:03

Why presume he’s been stood down because he’s suspected of committing murder (subsequently charged but still innocent until proven guilty), as opposed to the fact that as he’s in custody for an unknown time, he’s unable to perform any work duties?

"Good morning ladies and gentlemen, this is your Captain speaking, due to circumstances beyond my control, I shall be working from home today, have a nice flight."

neville_nobody

27th Nov 2021, 04:17

It would be a very uncomfortable workplace for him and his wife to work in even if he was cleared. Possibly a PR problem for the company also.

It would all depend on the circumstances. At the end of the day if you are found not guilty by a court you are not guilty regardless of whatever your colleagues or employer may believe. The more difficult scenario would be if the Police drop the charges due lack of evidence. That would probably be the more difficult position to be in as there was never a test of the accusations against you and people will be forever wondering if you are a some crazy serial killer or just unlucky. Unfortunately these days too Police seem pretty good with their forensics so they usually don't just charge random people for no reason so if the charges were to be dropped then it would only fester speculation.

cattletruck

27th Nov 2021, 08:45

A journalist earns money through being popular

Almost, a journalist earns money through building a relationship with their readership. Some do it better than others, some need to cast a lure with a sensational headline to draw attention to their skills as it's quite a competitive industry.

Dog on Cat3

27th Nov 2021, 11:22

So what happens if he is found not guilty? Or it gets thrown out of court or Police decide that there isn't enough evidence or they have the wrong guy?? You should not be fired just because the Police think you MAY have committed a crime.

Some sort of leave until the matter is decided would be a more justifiable position.

Factual but biased. The guy has only be charged and they don't even have a body at this point. The couple could still be alive for all we know.

Neville. I am curious about the bias you perceive. We may have seen different reports, of course, but bias? Where, and to whose benefit or detriment? My understanding is that the man in question has been charged, and that that fact has been reported by multiple journalists with, it can be agreed, varying degrees of over excitement. Bias, however, points to unfairness, but I cannot see such unfairness, at least not in the news reports I have seen. The couple may well be alive, as you say, but that possibility only confirms bad things are afoot, as they would likely be being held against their will at the very least.

rcoight

27th Nov 2021, 12:37

….Journalists also write what Murdoch wants to read .

Is that you, Malcolm / Kevin?

flash8

27th Nov 2021, 12:49

An Airbus check Captain doesn’t fit the murderer profile. I nearly fell over when I heard the news reporting a checkie was arrested.In the UK at least quite a few Captains have been jailed for Murder the last decade or so, it isn't too shocking, BA Captain not so long ago, but agreed, this one seems odd as the others were domestic violence.

Maisk Rotum

27th Nov 2021, 13:30

An Airbus check Captain doesn’t fit the murderer profile. I nearly fell over when I heard the news reporting a checkie was arrested.

These are highly skilled, paid, and well regarded professionals by the public. The safety of thousands are in my hands daily, they put trust in me, and my team deliver it back to them.

Still can’t sort of believe the whole thing and the type of person involved, but it is what it is.

You do realize you just gave yourself a heathy slap on the back and a thumbs up , right?? You just told all who care to read that in your opinion you are a highly skilled, paid, well regarded professional. Talking about professions and personality traits, you come across as quite a narcissist.

Roj approved

27th Nov 2021, 18:50

Journalists also write what Murdoch wants YOU to read .

There, I fixed it for you😂

KRUSTY 34

27th Nov 2021, 19:33

Do you need to be a nice person to be a pilot ?

Ha! Judging by some of the sociopaths I’ve encountered in the profession over the years...

Definitely not!

PoppaJo

27th Nov 2021, 23:59

You do realize you just gave yourself a heathy slap on the back and a thumbs up , right?? You just told all who care to read that in your opinion you are a highly skilled, paid, well regarded professional. Talking about professions and personality traits, you come across as quite a narcissist.
What exactly do you want me to say? We are unskilled poverty stricken cheap imported labour? Hey those people do exist up the front in many other places, just be appreciate of the standard we have down under.

It has been a pleasure throughout my career (like all) to have had the ability to get access to the standard of training that this country offers. That translates into a safe work environment which myself and my team pride ourselves on. It is what it is, some places dish up **** check and training standards, this one does not, I thank those who have got me this far in my career.

Alt Flieger

28th Nov 2021, 00:24

I know for a certain fact that Police prosecutors are not happy with the level of detail that has been leaked for the simple reason that it creates the opportunity for the defence to argue that a fair trial in Victoria is not possible since jury members have already been prejudiced.

Matt48

28th Nov 2021, 00:33

Ha! Judging by some of the sociopaths I’ve encountered in the profession over the years...

Definitely not!

If a pilot is doing his job well, he would be well nigh invisible to the pax, doesn't matter if he is a nice guy or a sociopath, do your job and no one notices.

Killaroo

28th Nov 2021, 01:42

Your colleagues ‘notice’. Think that’s not important?
Maybe not to a psycho.

Paragraph377

28th Nov 2021, 01:53

Ha! Judging by some of the sociopaths I’ve encountered in the profession over the years...

Definitely not!

CASA’s Screaming Skull and the Mr Ansett’s “ TJ” are two of the angriest and narcissistic pilots you could ever meet. The perfect example of professional pilots with uncontrolled angry emotions. But not every murderer is a born murderer. Yes, some are psychopaths and sociopaths, but many murders are committed by very normal average people, people who have been pushed to the edge, perhaps snapped during a situation, or have simply not bothered to try to apply reasonableness and contain their inner anger.

There is much unknown about the case with Lynn and I’m sure that a clear picture will be framed if and when a trial begins. The cops aren’t stupid and the circumstantial evidence is strong. It will be an interesting case to follow.

43Inches

28th Nov 2021, 02:08

Psycopaths are born that way it is a form of brain malformation where the emotion part does not develop properly and is hereditary. Sociopaths are created by life forces in general, so are not born that way, most are created from experience.

Both can hide to a certain extent, but will not do their job 'well', they may be capable pilots, but will generally be unreliable and prone to violent or irrational behavior. They will also find it hard to fit in with SOPs and being told what to do, especially if they don't like it, generally they will do everything to try and subvert doing what they are supposed to, even to the point of danger. Affected pilots who have progressed through GA in an un-guided sort of fashion would be more likely to survive rather than say a cadet who has to fit in with the system from day one. It is more likely they will find their way into check positions if allowed to as the dominance and control part would appeal to them, but the success of the candidate would be completely nothing they care for. They DO NOT make good checkers or trainers at all, as winning is the driver so even if they are wrong they will push their line in spite of safety and will just make stuff up and lie to cover up deficiencies in their own knowledge.

Its also very hard to diagnose in the young, basically not manifesting properly until early adulthood and getting worse as you age. So selecting employees too young can also lead to a few in the ranks as well.

TULSAMI

28th Nov 2021, 04:03

KRUSTY 34

28th Nov 2021, 06:14

If a pilot is doing his job well, he would be well nigh invisible to the pax, doesn't matter if he is a nice guy or a sociopath, do your job and no one notices.

Agree.

However I wasn’t talking about the interaction with Pax!

cLeArIcE

28th Nov 2021, 06:45

You do realise you just gave yourself a heathy slap on the back and a thumbs up , right?? You just told all who care to read that in your opinion you are a highly skilled, paid, well regarded professional. Talking about professions and personality traits, you come across as quite a narcissist.
In what world is a pilot not a highly skilled professional? Let me guess, (if you are a pilot) your the type that loves to brag to everyone about how easy your job is and that you practically do nothing etc. Buy your first to whinge about the lack of respect you receive from management and the amount you are paid. Nothing narcissistic about the post at all.

Ollie Onion

28th Nov 2021, 07:10

You just never know, I had a work friend who was a Senior FO at a large airline, he killed himself by standing in front of a train. It turned out he had just been in court and had name suppression lifted. He had been charged with multiple accounts of child abuse which he carried out during long haul trips around the world working as an ambassador for the airline in orphanages. No one at work knew anything about it or that he had been cautioned 2 weeks before and that he was in fact arrested in the work car park. people kept saying ‘he was such a nice bloke’. No body knows what goes on in other people’s worlds. Pilots are not immune to having the odd psycho in their ranks.

Bula

28th Nov 2021, 08:49

We get paid for the job and for the responsibility associated with it… piss off if you think otherwise.

FLGOFF

28th Nov 2021, 10:24

All came to a head last Sunday when GL’s JQ cabin crew wife confronted him about the murder in their Caroline springs home (which has been bugged for months), GL left to go hang himself. No doubt cops have been holding out trying to build their case but had to pounce before it got too late. Sold the trailer on gumtree mid last year. Ex wife’s autopsy showed high levels of alcohol in blood, which according to friends was unusual for her, cops may reopen this case also.

I take it this is just your personal theory and not some inside info that you have access to? The media were showing security camera footage of him greeting his neighbours last Sunday, certainly didn't look like a man who was going to run off to commit suicide the next day, unless this confrontation with his wife is supposed to have happened afterwards.

MickG0105

28th Nov 2021, 11:15

Psycopaths are born that way it is a form of brain malformation where the emotion part does not develop properly and is hereditary. Sociopaths are created by life forces in general, so are not born that way, most are created from experience.

Nowhere near as cut and dried as "sociopaths are made and psychopaths are born". There's been plenty of work done that suggests hereditary links for antisocial personality disorder (sociopathy), just as there's been work done on the impact of environmental factors in psychopathy.

AerialPerspective

28th Nov 2021, 15:10

AerialPerspective

28th Nov 2021, 15:20

Absolute discretion - I’ll expand. The head of security who has sign off on all group ASIC may withhold or withdraw an ASIC based on evidence indicating the applicant or holder is not suitable, including hearsay or evidence that is otherwise not admissible in a Court. If an allegation is made against an employee and the boss believes it, ASIC can be withdrawn and no right of appeal.

A specific case I was involved in quite a number of years ago, involved someone who had been charged and convicted of a crime but it was later determined their were some unusual circumstances - meaning that the fact of the criminal record was not, legally, a bar to holding an ASIC (it wasn't Qantas, but another major Australian airline) and the security department advised they did not want to issue an ASIC in any case. I was told at the time that they had to discretion to do so. One of them, an ex Police Officer, told me that the person would be working on what effectively would be the company's property and the company has even a common law right to refuse entry to anyone it sees fit but more specifically in this case, they just didn't want someone who had ANY sort of criminal record.

43Inches

28th Nov 2021, 21:40

Nowhere near as cut and dried as "sociopaths are made and psychopaths are born". There's been plenty of work done that suggests hereditary links for antisocial personality disorder (sociopathy), just as there's been work done on the impact of environmental factors in psychopathy.

There is more and more evidence that psychopathy is directly linked to a deficit in connection between a critical part of the brain. The result is not just a lack of emotion but also poor outcome judgement, meaning decision making is compromised as well, hence the seemingly impulsive behavior. The part of the brain that controls emotion and makes you pause and think through actions is malfunctioning or just not connected properly to the other parts. This then leads to the thought that given enough technology you might be able to 'fix' such an individual. There are more and more recent studies proving the theory now that high resolution MRI is available. On sociopathy its really somewhere between normal and psychopathy, about a quarter of incarcerated ASPD diagnoses also fit the psychopath diagnosis. With a sociopath there is a genetic disposition that makes you more vulnerable to it, however the sociopath has a weak conscience (as opposed to the psychopath with little to none) so can be environmentally altered to right/wrong outcomes.

43Inches

28th Nov 2021, 21:43

A specific case I was involved in quite a number of years ago, involved someone who had been charged and convicted of a crime but it was later determined their were some unusual circumstances - meaning that the fact of the criminal record was not, legally, a bar to holding an ASIC (it wasn't Qantas, but another major Australian airline) and the security department advised they did not want to issue an ASIC in any case. I was told at the time that they had to discretion to do so. One of them, an ex Police Officer, told me that the person would be working on what effectively would be the company's property and the company has even a common law right to refuse entry to anyone it sees fit but more specifically in this case, they just didn't want someone who had ANY sort of criminal record.

You can't deny an ASIC for other than the prescribed reasons, you can however have a work protocol that prohibits anyone with a criminal record. They are two different things. If someone is barred from an ASIC for improper reasons you can ask for a review and then take it to the AAT, this is all written in the transport security act so no company or individual can over-ride that.

Lead Balloon

28th Nov 2021, 22:45

(Not DFAT. Home Affairs. Used to be Transport, Cities, Communications X, Y, Q in its various names over the years.)

Going Boeing

29th Nov 2021, 02:14

You can't deny an ASIC for other than the prescribed reasons, you can however have a work protocol that prohibits anyone with a criminal record. They are two different things. If someone is barred from an ASIC for improper reasons you can ask for a review and then take it to the AAT, this is all written in the transport security act so no company or individual can over-ride that.

43”, two people who know the facts have tried to tell you the truth about the powers of the QF Group Head of Security. They are totally correct in what they have said and they can’t elaborate further for legal reasons.

Take it as a fact that the Head of Security can withhold the issue of an ASIC without having to give reasons and there is no appeal process.

43Inches

29th Nov 2021, 02:17

43”, two people who know the facts have tried to tell you the truth about the powers of the QF Group Head of Security. They are totally correct in what they have said and they can’t elaborate further for legal reasons.

Take it as a fact that the Head of Security can withhold the issue of an ASIC without having to give reasons and there is no appeal process.

Because this is not fact, if you go against an ACT of law you are in breach of it, so what is being said is complete tripe. You have the right to appeal and go to the AAT, the head of security can say and write whatever he likes, but you can challenge that in court via the ACT. If they are then found to be acting outside their powers, they will be in a very bad place and QF would risk losing their powers as an issuer. Large operators such as QF are already operating on dispensations as the main issuing bodies are supposed to be airports, but large operators are delegated authority to issue ASIC for expedience and convenience.

Lookleft

29th Nov 2021, 05:33

I doubt the pilot at the centre of all this willy waving over who knows what with ASICs is ever likely to be needing one any time soon.

C441

29th Nov 2021, 06:27

Going Boeing, 43 et al….
You're both correct.
The Qantas Head of Security can deny the issuing of a Qantas ASIC without having to define a reason. He/She cannot stop an applicant endeavouring to obtain an ASIC elsewhere (such as AviationID Australia) but that ASIC will not be able to be used to access the secure area of any Qantas property.

43Inches

29th Nov 2021, 07:08

The Qantas Head of Security can deny the issuing of a Qantas ASIC without having to define a reason. He/She cannot stop an applicant endeavouring to obtain an ASIC elsewhere (such as AviationID Australia) but that ASIC will not be able to be used to access the secure area of any Qantas property.

An ASIC is not for private property access, its for access to security controlled airports and aircraft. An AUS (australia wide) ASIC grants me access to all security controlled airports across Australia, including QANTAS used parts if my job requires that. QF issued ASIC are just that, QF issued, there is nothing special otherwise, the same as Melbourne and Sydney airport issue ASICs, they are just the issuer. If you are referring to door access that's another thing, that's just a local control mechanism and in no way limits your access to work, just creates extra work if you don't have it. I think what people are confusing is access to property with ASIC requirements, QF could imprint electronic access to its facilities outside of airside secure areas, and of course that can be revoked at anytime. If an employee is removed from duty then the ASIC must be removed as it is no longer required for employment. But you cant go the other way around and remove an ASIC for no cause and then fire the employee because they can't hold an ASIC, unless its within the stated reasons. This is to prevent ASIC removal being used as a circumvent for discrimination.

It does sound whatever case happened there was either sound reasoning for the refusal, or, very poor legal representation. In any case a letter to the secretary of home affairs for review is the course of action should an ASIC be denied or cancelled, if he then refuses the issuance, it progresses to the AAT. If that procedure has not been followed a court wont be interested, and I don't think will get involved in any way as there is a prescribed procedure. Much like how workplace issues are resolved.

itsnotthatbloodyhard

29th Nov 2021, 07:11

Anyone heard any more about that bloke who was accused of murdering that couple in Victoria?

SixDemonBag

29th Nov 2021, 07:51

Anyone heard any more about that bloke who was accused of murdering that couple in Victoria?

No.

Apparently the validity of his ASIC and medical are more interesting

43Inches

29th Nov 2021, 07:55

Technically we should not be talking about him at all, given he's now charged with murder and there is an ongoing investigation and upcoming trial most likely. The ASIC discussion and medical stuff were loosely related but not directly of interest to the case, anything more closely related should be discussed with the police and left from public view until the case and trial concluded.

Lookleft

29th Nov 2021, 08:14

We are talking about an accused pilot and his alleged crimes. Media do it all the time.

43Inches

29th Nov 2021, 08:22

Sub Judice applies to any publication of material that could bias a juror. Publication is inferred by making any information 'publicly available', so posting on this site is considered publication of information.

Comments that infer past tendencies, work habits, aggression and similar that draw a picture of the person would be considered contempt of court. The site even warns that it may be frequented by the press who could promulgate such information and make it viewable to a potential juror. There are strict guidelines that apply to reporting on a case once the suspect is charged until the verdict delivered and possibly further if appeal is probable.

YeahNup

29th Nov 2021, 09:57

Those psychometric tests work really well.

Rotor Work

30th Nov 2021, 03:43

Human remains have been found.
Regards R W

nonsense

30th Nov 2021, 07:41

We are talking about an accused pilot and his alleged crimes. Media do it all the time.

Media pick their way very carefully through a legal minefield with the advice of very expensive lawyers. Hence my earlier post quoting media without further comment.

PPRuNeUser0184

30th Nov 2021, 09:18

Those psychometric tests work really well.

You had 8 years to come up with a first post......and you blew it with that comment.

rez125

30th Nov 2021, 11:10

I take it this is just your personal theory and not some inside info that you have access to? The media were showing security camera footage of him greeting his neighbours last Sunday, certainly didn't look like a man who was going to run off to commit suicide the next day, unless this confrontation with his wife is supposed to have happened afterwards.

Didn't read like a personal theory :rolleyes:

rez125

30th Nov 2021, 11:11

Some quotes from this site have been used in media articles. Expect some of these quotes to be now used in court. Which is why the company has advised the team to say nothing. They are trying to keep its distance from the whole thing and avoid it becoming a ongoing workplace distraction. Those who have a gripe against colleagues/people and wish to pursue them or ‘shoot them while they are down’ etc, due to whatever reason, then that’s a matter for you, not the employer, but read up on court processes and see if the ego gain is worth it all, as you will likely be dragged into the process to provide/speak.

I'm shocked the thread remains open!

V-Jet

30th Nov 2021, 11:42

I've found this thread very informative.

Far more discussion out there on Theranos and Epstein for example. There is nothing stopping those trials and as yet there's no Lynn docco on HBO as far as I'm aware. Likewise, nothing I've seen here is suggesting anything like guilty until proven innocent.

As for 'ongoing workplace distraction' - I suspect that horse might just have bolted. What is posted here is (in the overnight galley gossip sense) largely irrelevant!

deja vu

1st Dec 2021, 03:04

Aviation has always had more than it's fair share of nutters. God knows I flew with heaps.

Spooky 2

1st Dec 2021, 18:40

Aviation has always had more than it's fair share of nutters. God knows I flew with heaps.

Ah yes, there was the Eastern Airlines pilot who murdered his wife, (PAA flight attendant), froze her body and fed her through the wood chipper.

TWT

2nd Dec 2021, 05:22

Human remains have been found.
Regards R W

Police have concluded their search after less than a week. I guess they found what they were looking for.

43Inches

2nd Dec 2021, 05:31

Likewise, nothing I've seen here is suggesting anything like guilty until proven innocent.

Sub Judice is not just about whether you call the accused guilty or not. It's about publishing information that could influence the opinion of a juror of the character of the accused and bias any judgement without that information being tested in court. So reporting things that have been covered in court in front of the Jury is fine, as with talking about what police have released to the public. Earlier in the thread there were a number of comments about past occurrences in work and personal life that may not be in evidence yet and therefore possibly crossing the line. Anything of that nature should be provided to the police for evidence, not released in a public forum that can be trolled by press for information.

V-Jet

2nd Dec 2021, 08:53

Earlier in the thread there were a number of comments about past occurrences in work and personal life that may not be in evidence yet and therefore possibly crossing the line. Anything of that nature should be provided to the police for evidence, not released in a public forum that can be trolled by press for information.

You're right, of course. Just like the MH370 thread and countless thousands of others.

This really should be the very last comment made on PPrune. It must be shut down forthwith, its entire database removed and deleted.

43Inches

2nd Dec 2021, 09:29

I'm not sure what you are getting at, the earlier comments were not presented as rumor, they were very much direct comments on the accused and his past actions. That's very different to musing over what happened to a Malaysian airliner which won't be investigated by judge and jury, but by a panel of inquiry.

Sub Judice applies to significant crimes that are put before a Jury. Not many cases on PPrune are similar in nature, as we all know its not common in aviation to have this type of thing occur. But as per the warning guidelines, courts can summon information from this site including IPs and such to Identify individuals, so you are not protected by anonymity from a court action, unless you are some high level hacker (PS VPNs and false routing technology wont protect you).

V-Jet

2nd Dec 2021, 10:47

I'm not sure what you are getting at,...,they were very much direct comments on the accused and his past actions.

Like almost every other thread here:) Except you may be taking liberties (these days) by suggesting the accused is, in fact, male. Or - have you seen the individual in ways most of us would prefer to just imagine?

Can someone give me Dick Smith's contact details because I need to make half the money he is out of the crypto he advertises on this website (and thousands of others) every minute of every day. If that actually is false and Mr Smith isnt a crypto marketing billionaire - be afraid because... as per the warning guidelines, courts can summon information from this site including IPs and such to Identify individuals, so you are not protected by anonymity from a court action, unless you are some high level hacker (PS VPNs and false routing technology wont protect you).

43Inches

2nd Dec 2021, 19:44

First of all you have to launch court action to get to that point. I can illegally push ads etc, its up to whoever is involved to then take it to authorities and demand intervention and action, it's also unlikely the origination of such fake adds was from within Australia so prosecution becomes very difficult. Someone commenting on personal details of a crime is most likely living within Australia typing on a local IP address and subject to our laws. Also with a sub judice court case only the judge has to decide if the publication is wrong, bring charges and cost return is not a consideration, just level of crime and willingness to prove a point. If you are on the wrong side of that, good luck.

PS You only have to watch the news that those phone and net scammers are regularly caught within Australia. However it's easy to set up so when one is caught, another takes its' place and so on.

das Uber Soldat

2nd Dec 2021, 23:12

You are not protected by anonymity from a court action, unless you are some high level hacker (PS VPNs and false routing technology wont protect you).
As someone with 20 years in ipsec, this isn't correct. Poorly configured routing may see your host ip revealed, but with basic care and rudimentary knowledge, a suitable vpn will make your identity effectively impossible to discern. Half of china would have been disappeared by now were that not the case.

43Inches

2nd Dec 2021, 23:27

You are confusing what private tracing vs Australias very invasive federal authorities have access to. The recent crime events should be a warning that they can bug phones, net, cars, use networked cameras, internet activity etc etc. Its more a case of do they want to expend resources to catch you or not, some of it can be dicey as evidence due to the nature of how they procure it hence why they only use it to help gather leads to a case, then use the traditional evidence because its more firm, and does not disclose how they came to find that evidence. Same as you might use a snout/informant to gain leads but you don't dump them in it as primary evidence to protect their identity, and keep them in position for further charges. As per China, you can do what you want until your actions annoy someone in power, and then whatever you think you have done in secret is used against you and dragged out in public, again even with draconian over the top surveillance China still has 1.5 billion people, you can only watch a small fraction of those so you only focus on the ones that cause trouble. If someone is using VPN to circumvent simple locks to watch netflix, who gives a dam, not a national security problem, the majority are not.

Pretty sure if you try to hide behind a VPN in China and get up to something frowned upon the owners of the VPN will be in for a tough time vs interference and hacking from the Chinese authorities, so your identity wont be hidden for long.

BTW the law enforcement in China is fast and efficient when it wants to be. I know of a number of incidents but the most notable was a mate who was scammed out of around $20,000 dollars in Guangzou. After feeling ashamed and embarrassed he finally had the courage to go to the local station and straight away they took him with them to identify the people that had blackmailed him. The crims were so afraid of the law turning up that they immediately started crying and repaid all the money back into respective accounts, no court, no arguments. There is much crime in China, but they definitely fear the law.

das Uber Soldat

3rd Dec 2021, 21:53

No confusion here. It's self evident that if you are already the target of investigation then the police are likely monitoring you via a host of direct means. But this is seperate and distinct from the efficacy of a suitable vpn, or encrypted routing protocol where you are not already the target of investigation, which is effectively the the entire population minus a very small number of individuals.

If you want to **** post on Pprune or anywhere else and take suitable steps, you will never be found. Simple as that.

Anyone who uses a vpn based in China is an idiot. For any Vpn based outside of China, who cares what the CCP think. They have little control over it beyond playing whack a mole with the gateway ip's.

43Inches

3rd Dec 2021, 22:57

The last vestige of privacy was access to iPhone internal storage, which Aus agencies have access to now, everything else that goes through a public router can be traced, picked at and decrypted. Which is why large corps don't have public networks and run segregated systems. Unless your encryption is this years military then its not even close to 100% secure. Basically the main security we all have using the net is sheer numbers and rate of return for the act. That is, phishing and confidence scams are still the easiest that anyone can get involved in. Hacking is rarely a problem for an individual, you usually hacked yourself by downloading and activating something or giving your details freely to a phishing scam. Same in gaming, hacking is rare, use of third party cheats is common. Someone with the skill to actually hack a system, break into and decrypt information is very rare, so they tend to stick to things of very high reward. Or just selling simple third parties for others and stay off government radars. Same with authorities, they either don't have the resources or don't have probable cause to be checking everyone in Australia for breaches in law, instead they wait for suspicious activity and then focus on that. So you can easily get away with using a VPN to access Netflix, watch the Grand finals etc, that doesn't mean they are fool proof for your anonymity, just means its too low key and intensive to chase everyone down doing it. They are more likely waiting to trip up Russian or Chinese hackers for political reasons. I had someone try to get into one of my secure emails a few weeks back, first IP was from west coast USA, then it switched to Eastern Europe and then the last three attempts from an IP in Russia. All at similar intervals indicating the same source. I'm not sure if it was US based trying to cover up using Eastern Europe routing or Eastern Europe based that tried to cover using US routing first, who knows, don't care, they failed.

PS I piss off people all over the world for my comments on various topics, some get angry.

das Uber Soldat

3rd Dec 2021, 23:58

Er OK? Not sure what relevence 90% of all that has to anything.

Your point seems to be if the authorities already know who you are, then they can see what you're doing. The question is, how do they find out who you are in the first place?

You've got a list of ip's that you allege tried to access your systems. What do you plan to do with that exactly? What happens when the authorities contact the hosts of those ip's and are told the host keeps no logs? Then upon forensic examination confirm that fact? Who's router are the authorities going to hack exactly?

Like I said, assuming you're not already the target of investigation (which is basically everyone) then effective anonymity is available to you, if you want it. Simple as that.

43Inches

4th Dec 2021, 00:29

Australopithecus

4th Dec 2021, 05:03

non_state_actor

4th Dec 2021, 06:00

It's already started.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/loner-pilot-barbecue-lover-mystery-swirls-around-accused-killer-20211202-p59e6z.html

das Uber Soldat

4th Dec 2021, 06:25

Point is if you are in a position to know the acused personally enough to make a sub judice comment that a judge may consider contempt then a VPN will not protect you. The same as defamatory comments, they can narrow down to workers freinds and colleauges and then 'look into' the most likely suspects, throw a few supenas in and suddenly you are not so annonymous.
If someone wants to make defamatory comments about person X, then the idea that the courts would permit the relevant authority to hack into the specific machines owned by every JQ pilot is hilarious. That's at a minimum something like 1000 people if you include pilots only, but there are cabin crew and operations staff too. Call it 2000 to be conservative. Say 3 devices each on average, you're talking about breaking security on 6000 devices, all of different makes and models, operating systems, security protocols and more. The manpower requirement for that type of work would be in the hundreds, and that doesn't include the workload required to maintain the compromised devices and actually monitor what was happening. Meanwhile the FBI is suing apple left right and center to attempt to break into a single iPhone. Unsuccessfully. I think you're grossly overestimating Australia's ipsec capability.

I do like the idea though of a building filled with hundreds of people all working together to find the mastermind involved in what is almost always a civil offence.

If I so desired (and I make no admission that I have or would do this), I could post whatever I wanted on this site, or any site and beyond having the comment deleted and the user account banned, no agency would have the first clue who was responsible for making it. Silk road operated for years, with absolute impunity. They sold weapons, drugs, people, you name it. Is it seriously your position that the Governments involved could have traced these people down whenever they wanted? Ulbricht fell because of a stupid technical mistake, a misconfiguration in its login page. It took the NSA and FBI years and without that misconfiguration, it'd likely STIL be going.

Just as there are right now, as I type this, dozens of alternatives and clones operating behind the tor network or various other methods. Why are they operating mate? Why did it take the NSA and FBI years of investigation, in the end relying on an apache configuration error if they can just 'throw a few "supenas" around and boom, not so "annonymous"?

It paints an interesting picture does it not? Follow your argument to its conclusion the result is that the Government most be entirely complicity with dark web marketplaces selling child pornography, weapons, drugs etc.. But civil defamation!? Well we won't be standing for that! That we're going to investigate and nobody is safe! :E

Its nonsense.

If you're not the subject of an active investigation, and aren't completely idiotic to give away your identity by what you write, the Government or anyone else for that matter has absolutely no capability to identify who you are.

The end.

43Inches

4th Dec 2021, 06:43

I never said it was all about hacking, there's a lot of other leads to ascertain who and why are defamatory/contempt. Past posts, employees that have shown similar behavior to posted information, etc, can narrow down on age, sex and many other things that they can hone in on an individual. The hacking and monitoring capabilities are just one aspect of what authorities are capable of. Also have to remember that if they think its a said employee the company would most likely be informed and hand over any relevant information. I think you are being naive to just how easy it is to trace someones identity through characteristics. All I said is that VPNs wont protect you, not that VPNs will be hacked, which they also can be on top of standard police work.

BTW you are familiar with why the site has a warning in the headers about anonymity, right?

das Uber Soldat

4th Dec 2021, 07:20

I never said it was all about hacking, there's a lot of other leads to ascertain who and why are defamatory/contempt. Past posts, employees that have shown similar behavior to posted information, etc, can narrow down on age, sex and many other things that they can hone in on an individual. The hacking and monitoring capabilities are just one aspect of what authorities are capable of. Also have to remember that if they think its a said employee the company would most likely be informed and hand over any relevant information. All I said is that VPNs wont protect you, not that VPNs will be hacked, which they also can be on top of standard police work.
You're literally arguing that the Government is complicit in child pornography, weapons sales and human trafficking, but is an unstoppable force when notified of civil defamation. Do you not see how absurd your position is? If not by now, I suspect never.

I think you are being naive to just how easy it is to trace someones identity through characteristics.
No doubt Silk road 3.0 is shaking in its boots at this newfound knowledge of police capability. Odd its been more than 6 years since it went live and.. its still up. Any day now though right mate?

43Inches

4th Dec 2021, 07:37

I think you have lost the plot, now you are comparing organised international internet crime with some individual shouting defamatory content at someone on line. Yeah, because local and federal police will be used to hack into the Russian nuclear missile system to avert WW3. You are confusing some professional criminal with the average internet user who thinks hiding behind a VPN will save them. There is a big difference between someone using simple precautions and someone with active changing mechanisms of deceit. The silk road and many other international crime peddlers are not hiding behind a simple VPN, sitting at home shifting illegal parcels of drugs and people via eBay and Amazon from some office. BTW, some are that stupid and get caught, but that's not the point.

das Uber Soldat

4th Dec 2021, 08:47

I think you have lost the plot
No mate. But you're speaking with someone who founded a company more than a decade ago who deals among other things with ipsec. I do this for a living mate.

you are comparing organised international internet crime with some individual shouting defamatory content at someone on line.
Indeed. And your position is that out of those two, the Government is only interested in investigating the defamatory comments. Genuinely amusing.

here is a big difference between someone using simple precautions and someone with active changing mechanisms of deceit.
Is that a fact? Because last time I checked, Silk Road remained online for years using nothing more than a VPN and TOR. Both widely available to the general public, both free. Indeed you can download chrome extensions for both and integrate them into your browser so grandma can use them. More to the point, millions of their users, just average people, used nothing more than the same and remained entirely anonymous until the hosts were compromised. For years.

Please tell me more about these 'active changing mechanisms of deceit'. Sounds fascinating, can't say I've come across them in my time developing platforms and security protocols for sensitive clients. Did you see them on CSI:Miami?

Senior Pilot

4th Dec 2021, 08:59

OK, back on topic or this thread is toast.

das Uber Soldat

4th Dec 2021, 09:35

Threads served whatever purpose it ever had, surely. The guys charged and soon to be on trial. I won't be commenting about it publicly , and I'd be suprised if others wanted to either.

StudentInDebt

4th Dec 2021, 13:23

This has to be one of the greatest thread drifts ever!

V-Jet

5th Dec 2021, 10:14

Keep the thread open. It's rare we get an insight into minds most of us associate with, but put into a potential criminal context. There probably aren't many of us that haven't thought the checkie behind us is likely a serial killer (when they aren't clicking a pen) but whether Mr Accused, is, or isn't one, the game of chess in play right now is going to be a thriller to watch from the bleachers. Will the goodies get the baddie, or are the goodies the baddies?

There is a great podcast/TV story in this - and that's in no way to make light of the tragedy of the events. They've happened. Nothing can unturn that stone, but like following an accident investigation team IMHO this has all the hallmarks of a fascinating journey. Wherever it ends up, I trust and sincerely hope that legitimate justice will be done.

PS: Whoever posted Col Williams interview above - thank you. I had never heard of him previously. I debated the worth of iWatches for kids/teenagers, but I've kitted all mine out with them on the strength of that interview alone and shared it to their friends' parents as well.

PPS: Trudie Adams - A close Qantas relative, still unsolved.

cattletruck

5th Dec 2021, 11:50

Journalist John Silvester always has a very good perspective on these things.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/loner-pilot-barbecue-lover-mystery-swirls-around-accused-killer-20211202-p59e6z.html

TWT

5th Dec 2021, 16:21

cattletruck : scroll back up to post # 120

cattletruck

6th Dec 2021, 04:13

Apologies for the duplicate post. John Silvester is quite well connected in VicPol, and this kind of story is right down his alley. His writing style is pleasingly accurate and engaging too and it would be worthwhile keeping a tab on him for any updates.

Australopithecus

6th Dec 2021, 04:40

I appreciated that he wrote the story triple spaced so that anyone could easily read between the lines. Especially the information about the recovery of the remains.

Boe787

6th Dec 2021, 08:02

If only Aviation in this country, had a journalist as good as John Silvester.

V-Jet

6th Dec 2021, 10:36

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10275969/amp/Jetstar-pilot-accused-murdering-secret-lovers-suffering-baptism-fire-prisoners-Australia.html

Lookleft

6th Dec 2021, 21:40

The daily mail article is a rehash of the Age article. I don't understand the relevance of the his facebook post about the Bunnings spit but then again social media and journalism are a perfect match.

crHedBngr

7th Nov 2022, 20:54

An update in this case, from the Daily Fail. Take it for what it's worth.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/melbourne/article-11396929/Secret-lover-campers-allegedly-shot-dead-Jetstar-piolot-dumped-Dargo-bush.html

Gnadenburg

8th Nov 2022, 01:20

What a relief. Potentially a bit quicker. Thought the weapon may have been a hunting knife.

Rachy2024

1st May 2024, 05:56

I think it was a female coroner actually!

rigpiggy

2nd May 2024, 14:59

Jbrownie

3rd May 2024, 06:36

Update with this case?

V-Jet

3rd May 2024, 23:43

Update with this case?

He was arrested sometime in 2021 from memory. It's mid 2024 - almost four years in jail without trial. What happened to any presumption of innocence?

Beer Baron

4th May 2024, 00:26

He was arrested sometime in 2021 from memory. It's mid 2024 - almost four years in jail without trial. What happened to any presumption of innocence?
Have you read the paper lately? Letting people out on bail under the presumption of innocence can just give them an opportunity to offend further. If the court has assessed there is clear evidence of a serious crime then why would we want them walking the street.

neville_nobody

4th May 2024, 00:38

He was arrested sometime in 2021 from memory. It's mid 2024 - almost four years in jail without trial. What happened to any presumption of innocence?

He can take that to a judge if he wants and they can change the bail conditions. He wouldn’t be in gaol either, it’s Remand which is different. There might be some other legal benefits to that.

V-Jet

4th May 2024, 01:11

I'm more interested in the fact that he's been in jail (remand / Club Fed / whatever - certainly not what anyone would call 'free' or even pleasant) without a trial for nearly four years. Suppose he is innocent - or 'gets off'? Aside from anything else, that's a lot of cyclics to catch up!!

I know the legal 'system' is slow, but 4 years? Murder is not a shoplifting charge either....

down3gr33ns

4th May 2024, 03:17

He was arrested in November, 2021.

That's 18 30 months ago, not 4 years as some have written.

3 Holer

4th May 2024, 03:34

Better check your maths 3 Greens :=

nonsense

4th May 2024, 04:09

He was arrested in November, 2021.

That's 18 months ago, not 4 years as some have written.

Split the difference and go for 2-1/2 years.

down3gr33ns

4th May 2024, 05:52

Better check your maths 3 Greens https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies2/eusa_naughty.gif

Done, thanks :uhoh:

Still not 4 years, though.

V-Jet

4th May 2024, 09:37

Done, thanks :uhoh:

Still not 4 years, though.

If it were you, 3 months would be a long time. Why the delay? Doesn’t seem right to me….I don’t know the guy, never met him, heard some thought he was possibly ‘odd’ (describes most pilots) - that’s all I know.

I just happened to look his name up to find out what the verdict was and couldn't believe there hadn’t even been a date set for trial - as far as I could see…

Why hasn’t he had his day in court to make a decision - one way or another?

2021 to 2024 is not far off 4 years. I didn’t remember the arrest date but knew it was a long time ago.

All the while the legal system is racking up its bills…

bobbelmore

4th May 2024, 09:55

He was arrested in Nov 2021.
That makes it 2 years 5 months and about 14 days.

Australopithecus

4th May 2024, 10:12

You know that song “Don’t cry for me Argentina”? Like that. Old mate has been the architect of much of the delay getting to trial.

Bull at a Gate

4th May 2024, 13:07

The delay is bad, but post Covid, it’s not unusual. The Victorian courts made less of an effort than their counterparts in other states and territories to keep things running. Now there is a bloody big backlog to get through.

TWT

4th May 2024, 14:52

11th May, 2023

Former Jetstar pilot Greg Lynn is pleading not guilty to two counts of murder, but is facing "funding issues", his high-profile barrister Dermot Dann KC says.

On Thursday during a pre-trial hearing in Melbourne, Mr Dann requested the trial be pushed back from a planned October 2023 start date until early 2024.

"A number of funding issues are trying to be dealt with at the present time. They're going to take a long time to resolve," Mr Dann said.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-05-11/trial-over-alleged-high-country-murders-delayed/102332696

shortshortz

5th May 2024, 05:37

If it were you, 3 months would be a long time. Why the delay? Doesn’t seem right to me….I don’t know the guy, never met him, heard some thought he was possibly ‘odd’ (describes most pilots) - that’s all I know.

I just happened to look his name up to find out what the verdict was and couldn't believe there hadn’t even been a date set for trial - as far as I could see…

Why hasn’t he had his day in court to make a decision - one way or another?

2021 to 2024 is not far off 4 years. I didn’t remember the arrest date but knew it was a long time ago.

All the while the legal system is racking up its bills…

Doesn't seem right to you?
It's what happens every complex murder trial. usually 3-4 years to get to trial. it is what it is.

KAPAC

5th May 2024, 05:41

Followed a case in Queensland and he did 4 years in remand , in the end it was self defence . It’s worth noting during those 4 years he was treated as a murderer so shackled for visits and kept on his own .

MickG0105

5th May 2024, 06:14

KAPAC

5th May 2024, 08:37

No . It was another case , won’t say anymore .

Lookleft

7th May 2024, 01:25

Similar case, much quicker to court:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-07/erin-patterson-pleads-not-guilty-to-murder-mushroom-poisoning/103813042

43Inches

7th May 2024, 05:12

Similar case, much quicker to court:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-07/erin-patterson-pleads-not-guilty-to-murder-mushroom-poisoning/103813042

In short, it's only quicker because she has chosen to forgo a committal hearing and go straight to the supreme court. She has given up an amount of process that might be in her favor to reduce the waiting time, probably not a smart idea, but we'll see in the long run.

As said earlier regarding the case in question in this thread the accused may be making things more difficult for process to occur and so it drags out. If the evidence against you is pretty strong and you blockade it, expect them to just move on and let you wait, while they sort other cases out, it's not like he's walking around free at the moment, or that the court system has nothing else to do.

ajax58

7th May 2024, 23:51

In court today.

https://www.supremecourt.vic.gov.au/daily-hearing-list

crHedBngr

9th May 2024, 07:06

Per the below-linked article:

1. Jury has been selected, comprised of 8 men and 6 women.

2. Trial begins 10 May, and is expected to take between 4 - 6 weeks.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/murder-trial-for-jetstar-pilot-over-missing-campers-case-set-to-begin-20240509-p5ir1q.html

Stationair8

10th May 2024, 02:20

ABC, reporting the jury has been discharged.

Somebody turned up in Jetstar uniform?

nonsense

10th May 2024, 02:59

ABC, reporting the jury has been discharged.

Somebody turned up in Jetstar uniform?

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/article/2024/may/10/greg-lynn-trial-accused-killer-russell-hill-carol-clay-victorian-campers-ntwnfb
A jury in the case of an airline captain accused of the double murder of Russell Hill and Carol Clay at a campsite in Victoria’s alpine region in 2020 has been discharged.

Greg Lynn, 57, has pleaded not guilty to two counts of murder and the prosecution and his lawyer were expected to open their cases on Friday.

But justice Michael Croucher said the 12 jurors and two substitutes empanelled in the case had been discharged.

Croucher told the jury that he was only giving them limited reasons for his decision, but that the law was filled with technicalities.

“I don’t want to embarrass anyone and it’s nobody’s fault,” he said.

“I’m sorry if that doesn’t give you much information, but that’s all I’m going to tell you.

“Thank you for putting your hands up for jury service, and for being willing to undertake this vital solemn and important role in the justice system, but it won’t be in this case.”

Lynn is represented by defence barrister Dermot Dann KC and Michael McGrath.

A new jury is set to be empanelled on Monday.

The trial was set to last for between four and six weeks.