UK F-35B Lost

[RAFEngO74to09]

From HMS Queen Elizabeth.

Pilot ejected safely.

(1) Navy Lookout on Twitter: "MoD says a British F-35 pilot from @HMSQNLZ ejected during routine flying operations in the Mediterranean this morning. The pilot has been safely returned to the ship and an investigation has begun. #CSG21 https://t.co/OpdQzYGLHS" / Twitter

[NutLoose]

Good to hear, I take a major recovery is in operation? As there will be more than one interested party in it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59323895

[albatross]

Ok, so that’s a very expensive “Bang”.
Hopefully it is still under warranty or has the “Replacement Value” endorsement on the insurance.
Glad the pilot is OK.
Is this the first operational F-35 loss worldwide?

[Ninthace]

Ok, so that’s a very expensive “Bang”.
Hopefully it is still under warranty or has the “Replacement Value” endorsement on the insurance.
Glad the pilot is OK.
Is this the first operational F-35 loss worldwide?
No. Goggle is your friend.

[ORAC]

Is this the first operational F-35 loss worldwide?

No.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a32615435/f-35-crash-elgin-air-force-base/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-47876128

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II#Accidents_and_notable_incidents

[134brat]

Maybe not the first loss. I could be wrong about it but l seem to remember an incident in the US with an F35 and KC130.

[Fonsini]

Happy the pilot is ok.

I wonder what stage of flight the aircraft was in, hopefully this isn’t a lift fan issue otherwise the SHAR fans will be all over it.

[Saintsman]

Well fortunately, the UK government seem to be quite flush at the moment, so they can afford to buy another one...

[dctyke]

That’s another 1% on inflation………..

[GeeRam]

Well fortunately, the UK government seem to be quite flush at the moment, so they can afford to buy another one...

Good job 3 new ones were flown across the Atlantic the other week.

Good job the pilot is OK.

[Flying Palm Tree]

A couple of rolls of gaffer tape and a hammer should fix it.

[[email protected]]

RN or RAF pilot?

[RAFEngO74to09]

This is the 6th F-35 written off:
F-35A - USAF - 23 Jun 14 - engine fire
F-35B - USMC - 27 Oct 16 - in-flight fire
F-35B - USMC - 28 Sep 18 - fuel tube failure
F-35A - JASDF - 9 Apr 19 - crashed in sea
F-35A - USAF - 19 May 20 - crashed on landing - burnt out
F-35B - RAF - 17 Nov 21 - crashed in sea

[Stitchbitch]

Happy the pilot is ok.

I wonder what stage of flight the aircraft was in, hopefully this isn’t a lift fan issue otherwise the SHAR fans will be all over it.

If it was the lift fan I wonder if the seat auto ejected the pilot? Something Harrier pilots would have found useful..

[ORAC]

RAFEng,

7th.

F-35B - USMC - 20 Sept 2020 - Collision with KC-130.

The one where the KC-130 made an emergency landing in a field near ThermL with the crew walking away….

https://news.usni.org/2020/09/29/marine-f-35b-crashes-after-collision-with-kc-130-over-california-all-aircrew-recovered-safely

[Melchett01]

Wonder how deep the water is there? Wonder where the nearest Russian subs are?

[SLXOwft]

Maybe not the first loss. I could be wrong about it but l seem to remember an incident in the US with an F35 and KC130.
29 oct 2020: Collision during AAR between a VMFA-121 F-35B (piloted ejected safely - minor injuries) and a VMGR-352 KC-130J (forced landing in a field while trying to reach Thermal Airport, all crew safe).

According to the Marine Corps Times 1 October 2020
Both planes(sic) were taking part in the seven-week Weapons and Tactics Instructors course conducted out of Marine Corps Air Station Yuma, Arizona, designed to get Marine pilots familiar with flying in support of the Marine ground element.

EDIT Duplicate but contains extra detail

[SLXOwft]

I hope it's not another manufacturing defect:
27 oct 2016: 168057 F-35B USMC 'The fire was due to a "faulty bracket, which was known as a potential hazard by officials overseeing the F-35 program, grazed electrical wiring near hydraulic lines. A fire erupted when an electrical short ignited a small hydraulic leak."'
28 sep 2018 168719 F-35B USMC “An investigation determined a manufacturing defect caused an engine fuel tube to rupture during flight, resulting in a loss of power to the engine"

[BEagle]

Defence Secretary Ben Wallace said the jet came down soon after take off.[...]

Mr Wallace added that operational and training flights onboard HMS Queen Elizabeth are continuing despite the incident.

Good to know that the pilot has been safely rescued. But an accident shortly after take-off and a statement that flights are continuiung nevertheless is pretty significant?

[RAFEngO74to09]

According to Defence Sec - ditched soon after take-off.

https://www.forces.net/news/hms-queen-elizabeth-british-f-35-crashes-over-mediterranean

[silverelise]

How tolerant is the F35 to swallowing birds or other FOD ?

[Lima Juliet]

[email protected]
I hear it’s a WAFU who is even more so now! At least the Mk 16 Martin Baker let down system worked as advertised :ok:

[Lima Juliet]

How tolerant is the F35 to swallowing birds or other FOD ?

Probably more tolerant than it is to swallowing sea water! :cool:

[trim it out]

Good to know that the pilot has been safely rescued. But an accident shortly after take-off and a statement that flights are continuiung nevertheless is pretty significant?
No need to ground the other embarked types?

[Fortissimo]

According to Defence Sec - ditched soon after take-off.

https://www.forces.net/news/hms-queen-elizabeth-british-f-35-crashes-over-mediterranean

How very considerate and helpful of the Defence Secretary to announce roughly where the aircraft came down. That means if you were thinking about salvage, analysis and reverse engineering, you could start looking in the right place if you know where the QE was at the time (AIS plus radar x-section = Yorkshire should do it). I would like to applaud his contribution to the security of the F-35 capability. But I can't. Presumably he will follow the line he has taken with others who have inadvertently breached security and sack himself.

[Easy Street]

Unless the time of the occurrence has been released, then knowing it was near the ship doesn't really help.

Moreover the ejection will have automatically activated the pilot's personal locator beacon, and as the Russians are part of COSPAS/SARSAT, they'll have a pretty good handle on the location as a result. One imagines there will be ships monitoring the site until a salvage capability arrives; they would also be a bit of a giveaway.

[Auxtank]

Good to hear, I take a major recovery is in operation? As there will be more than one interested party in it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59323895

Award for the Understatement Of The Year NutLoose.
Under-surface traffic will be having a Ping Fest/ Safety's OFF until that bird is safely back onboard.
Anyone trying it on fully deserves to be imploded.

[Fortissimo]

Unless the time of the occurrence has been released, then knowing it was near the ship doesn't really help.

Moreover the ejection will have automatically activated the pilot's personal locator beacon, and as the Russians are part of COSPAS/SARSAT, they'll have a pretty good handle on the location as a result. One imagines there will be ships monitoring the site until a salvage capability arrives; they would also be a bit of a giveaway.

Quite, but there is a big difference between an ejection at 30,000 ft and one at 30ft in where the aircraft impacts and how far it travels thereafter. COSPAS/SARSAT might have provided an indication of the point of seat separation, but that is all. As for the expected overwatch, some of that may be sub-surface (we won't know) and surface vessels are unlikely to be directly over the site. The point is that Wallace - or whoever briefed on his behalf - has removed much of the ambiguity that would have been helpful in delaying the efforts of other 'interested parties' to locate the wreckage.

[golder]

Unless the time of the occurrence has been released, then knowing it was near the ship doesn't really help.

Moreover the ejection will have automatically activated the pilot's personal locator beacon, and as the Russians are part of COSPAS/SARSAT, they'll have a pretty good handle on the location as a result. One imagines there will be ships monitoring the site until a salvage capability arrives; they would also be a bit of a giveaway.
10am, doesn't say the time zone, but UK would be a good guess. I would think the ship will be transponding its position and be a visible track and time. Shown on the internet sites, that do this. They have divers securing the site.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/royal-navy-race-against-russians-25485673
It is believed the pilot is recovering and back on the ship following the crash which happened at 10am on Wednesday.

[ORAC]

I think the Russians will have been monitoring the TF location closely and will be more than aware of where the ejection occurred without having to delve into the minister’s statement.

I would imagine the Kildin was still trailing along……

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/07/russian-spy-ship-pictured-tracking-royal-navy-vessel-rare-sighting/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishnya-class_intelligence_ship

[SLXOwft]

How tolerant is the F35 to swallowing birds or other FOD ?

A 2009 LM presentation Birdstrike Certification Tests of F-35 Canopy and Airframe Structure 'Approved for Public Release' can be found here https://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=13106 how much you wish to rely on its accuracy is up to you.:O

Israel said damage to an F-35I in September 2017 was caused by a birdstrike, storks according to some sources. This was the same day Syrian and pro-Russian claimed an F-35I was hit by an S-200 aka SA-5 Gammon which Israel denies.

A 'Class A' ( $2 million+ damage cost) incident involving a VMFA-121 F-35B attempting to take off from MCAS Iwakuni on 07 may 2019 was caused by a birdstrike, the 1st MAW spokesman (male) said '... The aircraft never went airborne,..' and was able to taxy 'off the runway'.

[verticalflyer]

Some comedy speculations on the chat I see, systems are not likely to be running with 50M+ of sea water on them! So bar some passive surveillance and pinging off structure they would not be getting anything very exciting back that had not been previously visible from a view from an airshow or embarkation. An ECM blanket I suspect would be in place and therefore I do not think any Bond movies are going to be re enacted anytime soon irrelevant of giving away location of aircraft, which will be recovered pretty smartish (pending depth) and have overwatch on site anyway.

[Fortissimo]

Some comedy speculations on the chat I see, systems are not likely to be running with 50M+ of sea water on them! So bar some passive surveillance and pinging off structure they would not be getting anything very exciting back that had not been previously visible from a view from an airshow or embarkation.

I'm not sure what comedy speculations you are referring to, as nobody has been suggesting any transmissions other than from the pilot's PLB and surface traffic (the QE and other large SVs will be transmitting AIS info, as it is required). Airshows/embarkation etc tend to show the aircraft external surfaces only and it would indeed be a comedy speculation to imagine the low-observable package remained intact on water entry.

[Courtney Mil]

If anyone here is still concerned about “someone” being capable to locate the wreckage, the sonar locator in the ADR will be a big clue. Unless, of course, it has a special stealth version that can’t be detected. But…

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Where you been, Courtney?!

[Glevum]

If the wreckage is in the deeper parts of the Med, the 37.5khz pinger will not be detected on the surface.

[ORAC]

Well the average depth is 5000ft, plummeting to 17,000ft in the Calypso Basin.

[charliegolf]

Well the average depth is 5000ft, plummeting to 17,000ft in the Calypso Basin.

But he fought the controls to avoid the school and old people's home!:E

CG

[a5in_the_sim]

James Cameron's phone will be ringing off the hook!

[DogTailRed2]

If the aircraft ditched in international waters and the Ruskies happened to find it first is it salvage?

[Lima Juliet]

A unique feature of the US16E is the trio of airbags that inflate in a two-stage process to protect the head and neck of the F-35 pilot, wearing the large helmet-mounted display, upon ejection. Also of note, the F-35B version of the Lightning II has an auto-eject mode. This is designed to function in the specific instance where the STOVL aircraft is in the hover, and the shaft-driven lift fan fails.

In that case, the jet is likely to pitch down sharply, quicker than the pilot can react to fire the seat manually. It will therefore fire automatically while the possibility of escape remains.

I wonder if this was what happened. If so, I hope there was an issue with the lift fan and not a malfunction with the AI and the sensing system. The poor Pilot will be proper miffed if they were flying a fairly serviceable jet and then it punched them out!

[LateArmLive]

I'd be more miffed if I'd punched out of a jet that was perfectly serv...

[ZH871]

Marine Traffic shows HMS QE (1 min ago), HMS Defender (14 hrs ago), and RFA Tidespring (4 hrs ago) just north of the island of Crete - would the carrier strike group remain in the vicinity of the downed F35? If so, is this the actual location?

[tartare]

Presumably legs get pulled to the seat in auto-eject as in a normal ejection - but what happens to one's arms that have hands on throttle and stick?!!!
Is there any warning - aural cue in headset?
I assume so given the massive potential for flail injuries or even striking the cockpit rim on the way out?

[rattman]

Marine Traffic shows HMS QE (1 min ago), HMS Defender (14 hrs ago), and RFA Tidespring (4 hrs ago) just north of the island of Crete - would the carrier strike group remain in the vicinity of the downed F35? If so, is this the actual location?


Assume it would make it to obvious, but I would bet which ever astute was escorting will remain lurking and watching

[charliegolf]

Presumably legs get pulled to the seat in auto-eject as in a normal ejection - but what happens to one's arms that have hands on throttle and stick?!!!
Is there any warning - aural cue in headset?
I assume so given the massive potential for flail injuries or even striking the cockpit rim on the way out?

Don't they have arm retraction via a jacket they wear? I think such a thing was in use as far back as the 80s in Tornados. But I have a vivid imagination!

CG

[Moi/]

Rumours already spreading around about the cause on egoat. Won't post it, as the media will pick it up.

[tartare]

Surely not something so obvious.
Aren't they red to stop such things happening?

[Davef68]

Rumours already spreading around about the cause on egoat. Won't post it, as the media will pick it up.

You think the media don't/can't read egoat?

[tartare]

Arm restraint mechanism shown here.
https://survitecgroup.com/media/345110/survitec-f35-brochure.pdf
Each suit tailored to the individual pilot!
More on the seat here:
https://martin-baker.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/US16E-Seat-Data-Sheet-Aug-2021.pdf
Noting the Forger also had auto-eject.
I wonder if the aircraft tells the pilot it's about to eject them - you would certainly hope so.
Considering the function would be armed in low and slow portion of the flight envelope where things could happen very quickly.

[golder]

If anyone here is still concerned about “someone” being capable to locate the wreckage, the sonar locator in the ADR will be a big clue. Unless, of course, it has a special stealth version that can’t be detected. But…
Just lucky they saw it crash and had naval divers and mini-subs handy then. They are standing watch.

[SpazSinbad]

Arm restraint mechanism shown here.
https://survitecgroup.com/media/345110/survitec-f35-brochure.pdf
Each suit tailored to the individual pilot!
More on the seat here:
https://martin-baker.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/US16E-Seat-Data-Sheet-Aug-2021.pdf
Noting the Forger also had auto-eject.
I wonder if the aircraft tells the pilot it's about to eject them - you would certainly hope so.
Considering the function would be armed in low and slow portion of the flight envelope where things could happen very quickly.
Good PDF thanks (date 2019 - an earlier PDF is less detailed). Pics from the 2019 PDF
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1333x857/f_35armrestraintflightsuitsurvitec_272afd2519d6d61eb56b428a6 6911c3f49699342.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/891x998/f_35_arm_restraint_system_for_ejection_f0347ade16a4d55029c9a cc8694caf6b5dcf78c7.jpg

[SpazSinbad]

F-35B Auto Eject in STOVL Mode is below 0.6 second actuation. There is no time for warning or for pilot to react except BP Be Prepared. I thought the time was 0.4 second which may be how fast it is actuated.
Test Flying The Joint Strike Fighter 17 June 2011 Graham Tomlinson
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/hawkerassociation/hanewsletters/hanewsletter030nvu/testflyingjointstrikefighter.html
“...In the unlikely event of the lift fan failing catastrophically the aircraft would pitch inverted in 0.6 seconds, and the pilot is protected by auto-ejection signalled by pitch rate and attitude..."
&
Synopsis of Lecture to RAeS Loughborough Branch on 08 Mar 2011 - Martin-Baker: the JSF story so far by Steve Roberts, JSG IPT Lead, Martin-Baker Aircraft Company Ltd
"...A typical pilot takes two seconds to react to the ejection klaxon or one second if warned in advance of a likely failure. In the case of a STOVL related failure, ejection must take place within 0.6 seconds. Hence it was necessary to install smart failure sensors on the aircraft to automatically fire the ejection circuit mounted in the back of the seat....”
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/john.ollerhead/RAeS/Past_lectures_files/110308%20JSF%20seat.pdf

[tartare]

Indeed - all that thrust vectoring vertical out the back and no lift-fan vector - it'd just pitch forward and somersault.
So they might hear a fraction of a second sound of the klaxon before being catapulted out...
This also:
https://www.fujitsu.com/downloads/MICRO/fma/marcom/convergence/data/papers/2010-01-2330.pdf
Sounds like it's the ICAWS which makes the punch out decision when auto-eject is armed.

[SpazSinbad]

Not sure if the 'leg restraints' shown in JPG are used OR they are for the specific canopy tests being undertaken:
Second Vendor F-35 Canopy Testing Completed - Aerospace & Defense Technology (aerodefensetech.com) (https://www.aerodefensetech.com/component/content/article/adt/insiders/defense/stories/36906)
JPG: 20200514_Defense_Story2.jpg (600×800) (cloudinary.com) (https://res.cloudinary.com/tbmg/v1589391734/adt/articles/2020/insider/20200514_Defense_Story2.jpg)
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/598x639/20200514_defense_story2_crop_9593894045d4b4473b03b8dcd570261 36d31548c.jpg

[SpazSinbad]

From 'tartare' cited PDF above: F-35 Lightning II Cockpit Vision 19 Oct 2010 Michael Skaff
https://www.fujitsu.com/downloads/MICRO/fma/marcom/convergence/data/papers/2010-01-2330.pdf (0.7Mb)
"...In the unlikely event of catastrophic engine failure in hover mode the F-35 is equipped with an automatic ejection seat. This feature is only armed and available at the extremes of the vertical landing envelope. At first thought an auto-eject function seems extreme to most pilots, but once they are made aware of the time critical urgency and the total inability of the human to command a manual ejection during low altitude hover, most are thankful for this capability. This is a clear example of letting the computer do what computers do best...."

[LateArmLive]

This was not an auto-ejection, but yes - the F35 does have arm and leg restraints that operate no matter which way the seat leaves the jet.

[Stitchbitch]

'The suits is individually tailored' may lead some to imagine Saville Row, there is a standard size range of F-35 PFE, Sizing/fitting is just about the same as you'd get in any Squipper bay, only the helmet might be considered 'tailored'.

As the above poster mentioned, active arm and passive leg restraint are standard on F-35 seats, along with head and neck protection.

[Kiltrash]

Planned visit by Prince Charles to the Carrier today has been cancelled. Crew are possibly a bit otherwise engaged

[NutLoose]

Surprised the USA are not offering recovery assistance as well, or are they?

[ORAC]

According to the press, yes. They have deep diving unmanned submersibles closer at hand.

[NutLoose]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/598x639/20200514_defense_story2_crop_9593894045d4b4473b03b8dcd570261 36d31548c_63d445ccb1dcda148fd970061614303624cf39ea.jpg


Good to see nothing has changed, I take it the white toe caps are to prevent someone nicking his / her / its flying boots... :E

[Above The Clouds]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/598x639/20200514_defense_story2_crop_9593894045d4b4473b03b8dcd570261 36d31548c_63d445ccb1dcda148fd970061614303624cf39ea.jpg


Good to see nothing has changed, I take it the white toe caps are to prevent someone nicking his / her / its flying boots... :E


Or to leave witness marks if they hit the airframe on the way out.

[teeteringhead]

Good to see nothing has changed, I take it the white toe caps are to prevent someone nicking his / her / its flying boots... images/smilies/evil.gif Nah - it's like the brown ones - stop you wearing them with blues!

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/pinstripedline/status/1461767499373031432?s=21

[West Coast]

https://twitter.com/pinstripedline/status/1461767499373031432?s=21

Thanks Orac, got a chuckle out of that.

[H Peacock]

So, any inkling yet as to the cause, or are we drawing a blank? 🤔

[LateArmLive]

So, any inkling yet as to the cause, or are we drawing a blank? 🤔

...Ouch...

[tartare]

If the jet made a rolling take off - are we talking intake or exhaust blank?
Intake - highly visible to multiple people on deck before wheels started turning.
Exhaust - shirley not possible because jet wouldn't go anywhere - highly degraded thrust.
And the lift fan doesn't need one - it's got doors.
Struggling to see how the egoat rumour can possibly be correct.
But they're now saying the ejectee landed on the flight deck!

[Foghorn Leghorn]

So, any inkling yet as to the cause, or are we drawing a blank? 🤔

Nicely done H Peacock, nicely done ha ha.

[CargoOne]

F35 is a mistake keep repeated. Same like German Kriegsmarine Bismarck and Tirpitz. State of art at huge cost and no real use in war. Just keep producing an upgraded F16, much more efficient

[West Coast]

F35 is a mistake keep repeated. Same like German Kriegsmarine Bismarck and Tirpitz. State of art at huge cost and no real use in war. Just keep producing an upgraded F16, much more efficient


Well, the F16 does have a tail hook.



(that’s satire before someone decides to prepare a lecture on the emergency nature of the F16 hook)

[SpazSinbad]

ONE MILE DEEP - good luck with that: ‘Asked the Americans' UK calls for US help to recover RAF F35 jet in race against Russia (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/asked-the-americans-uk-calls-for-us-help-to-recover-raf-f35-jet-in-race-against-russia/ar-AAQTeUs?ocid=winp-se)

"The British military has received support from their American counterparts in the search to recover a F35B Lightning II, the Times reports. Navy sources told the broadsheet: "A number of nations have the capability to recover an aircraft from that depth........Reports suggest the jet is more than a mile below the surface. The process itself is supposedly "not rocket science"...."

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

So, any inkling yet as to the cause, or are we drawing a blank? 🤔
Now that made me chuckle.

Red herrings aside as I cannot believe something so obvious would have been missed., but how many other little RBF tags could have a catastrophic effect. A hunch would suggest the majority, and it wouldn't be the first time one has been left on.

[wiggy]

Now that made me chuckle.

Red herrings aside as I cannot believe something so obvious would have been missed.

And yet as history has shown they can be as big as you want, painted any colour you want and yet they do get missed.

Technology may change but somehow Murphy still finds a workaround.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

And yet as history has shown they can be as big as you want, painted any colour you want and yet they do get missed.

Technology may change but somehow Murphy still finds a workaround.
So true Wiggy, so true.

[sfm818]

Quick detour. A fascinating read on the loss and recovery of an F-14A which rolled off JFK into the North Sea. Crew ejected and landed back on the flight deck, in full view of a Soviet cruiser.

Tomcat Deep! ? HistoricWings.com :: A Magazine for Aviators, Pilots and Adventurers (http://fly.historicwings.com/2012/09/tomcat-deep/)

[Davef68]

Do they even use intake blanks on the F-35? I've seen photos on QE with RBF tags, but none that show intake (or engine) blanking plates.

[RAFEngO74to09]

Do they even use intake blanks on the F-35? I've seen photos on QE with RBF tags, but none that show intake (or engine) blanking plates.
The UK F-35Bs do use engine intake blanks - the soft variety.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/678x381/image_98875acacf0846028393b12e9a1b3a98aaf6a365.png

[Bing]

ONE MILE DEEP - good luck with that: ‘Asked the Americans' UK calls for US help to recover RAF F35 jet in race against Russia (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/asked-the-americans-uk-calls-for-us-help-to-recover-raf-f35-jet-in-race-against-russia/ar-AAQTeUs?ocid=winp-se)

"The British military has received support from their American counterparts in the search to recover a F35B Lightning II, the Times reports. Navy sources told the broadsheet: "A number of nations have the capability to recover an aircraft from that depth........Reports suggest the jet is more than a mile below the surface. The process itself is supposedly "not rocket science"...."

Richmond's Lynx was 4km down and was successfully recovered so 1 mile is well within current capability.

[Courtney Mil]

Richmond's Lynx was 4km down and was successfully recovered so 1 mile is well within current capability.

That’s certainly what I think.

[BEagle]

Perhaps you should pop your tanks on, Courtney Mil me old!!

[NutLoose]

The US salvaged a Seahawk from 3 miles down around 2020-2021

https://www.stripes.com/theaters/asia_pacific/navy-breaks-its-deep-sea-salvage-record-with-recovery-of-seahawk-helicopter-near-okinawa-1.667459

[anson harris]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/302x166/11848722_c152_4bf2_a281_c3faacb585db_eb68f2761f4af27a7366ab4 1afcfe2235430349b.jpg

[SpazSinbad]

Salvaging the jet – the race to recover the ditched F-35 from the seabed 21 Nov 2021
https://www.navylookout.com/salvaging-the-jet-the-race-to-recover-the-ditched-f35-from-the-seabed/
"...PUNCHING OUT Reliable sources say that the accident occurred during take-off and the pilot was recovered very close to the carrier. The Daily Mail [ [url]https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10214377/Navy-rushes-recover-100m-F-35B-jet-sea-bed-pilot-ditched.html ] reported that the pilot was “left dangling from the edge of the HMS Queen Elizabeth because the lines of his parachute became caught on edge of flight deck.” Official sources would not confirm or deny this detail but it would suggest the pilot was very fortunate. Accidents on take-off are especially dangerous but whether trapped in a sinking aircraft or having ejected, naval aviators also face the serious risk of being run over by the carrier...." [lots more at the navylookout URL about various aspects of a potential recovery of the aircraft]

[b]DAILY MAIL excerpt:
"...The pilot, who suffered minor injuries, is understood to have been rescued by helicopter. The pilot's family was informed of the crash before military chiefs released a statement yesterday afternoon about the incident. After he ejected, rockets in his plane's seat blasted him more than 100 feet upwards before his parachute opened.

But a source told The Sun that when the pilot floated back down towards the warship, he 'came within inches' of hitting the flight deck. Instead, a cross-wind is said to have blown him sideways, where his parachute lines then became snagged on the edge of the 900 foot long runway. The quick-thinking pilot was then left dangling from the edge of the warship, around 60 feet above the water. He pulled an escape pin which released him from his harness and he then plunged into the water. [that is called the LONG DROP is it not?]

'He made the right decision,' a source said. 'We train for landing in water. The last thing you want is to get tangled in your parachute lines getting dragged along the edge of a 65,000 tonne warship.'

The US are understood to be helping with efforts to recover the plane...."

[212man]

The location shown in that DM link is in Egyptian waters it would appear.

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/695x743/screenshot_2021_11_21_144721_3d5d0a9347ce207953ebf5dbdb6c808 e738b8f2c.png
Yes i know it's childish...

[dctyke]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/695x743/screenshot_2021_11_21_144721_3d5d0a9347ce207953ebf5dbdb6c808 e738b8f2c.png
Yes i know it's childish...

I’m reliably informed that the Leeds and Liverpool Canal magnetic fishing team have been deployed.


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/615x409/30ab5c84_6956_4116_ac2b_ab941db26345_f6c2db1b643d2ff38bc2f26 5c8c7454cf0604ada.jpeg

[Auxtank]

Do not fear, Comrades.

I find for you. . .


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/425x282/ice_20fishing_1255f355ead74a878f6d46445d5f8129e0aa2790.jpg

[langleybaston]

Will somebody please kick him in the icehole?

[Auxtank]

Already kicked in icehole by superiors - this is why in Siberia, having to sit on special design Medical chair, with bag under you see, and not flying Foxbatski anymore.

[langleybaston]

Deterred in bagsski not good for bait..

[Vortex Hoop]

Good job our tiny batch of Daves doesn't suffer from a problem of critical mass, which just got one smaller.

oh wait...:ugh:

[NutLoose]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/790x530/1494059187_2596_jpeg_7a6980532f4768570e7536387230b42281cfa48 9.jpg

Well it's American isn't it? Geez anyone can make a mistake, ok throw it back....

[Easy Street]

The Airport movies are evidently too obscure for contemporary meme-makers...

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/592x333/airport772_36319157a95eb9f67be77c44059b9cff02851c9d.jpg

[YRP]

This thread improved dramatically from a few days ago. Well done lads.

[NutLoose]

The basic problem is there is never a Spanish freighter around when one needs one.


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x450/image_8b5bf16b4beca00daf364eb2614fd9eb0119cde7.jpeg

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/covertshores/status/1462887127574884353?s=21

[dagenham]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1242x1242/1df85667_6e35_42f2_8e49_882096bcf556_d4a70a3dc6c224513a62155 3bbf8c5640baa79b9.jpeg

[Auxtank]

Has anybody asked the plane if it wants to be recovered?

Maybe it likes it down there, maybe it's found some new friends down there . . .


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x484/f35shark1_35621630ed3cb41793553d5b211ccb18991a7130.jpg

[MPN11]

Ooh, Sherky-infested water!

[Tashengurt]

The basic problem is there is never a Spanish freighter around when one needs one.


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x450/image_8b5bf16b4beca00daf364eb2614fd9eb0119cde7.jpeg
Was he at the very van of the conflict or just in transit?

[622]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x450/image_8b5bf16b4beca00daf364eb2614fd9eb0119cde7.jpeg

...And 9 months later the Skyvan was born!

[sandiego89]

Paging Commander Bond…..


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/225x225/25a7aa91_a26c_471b_90f9_2b3cfe06df02_bd1d0624bd2fbf5aac3adb3 7afbb3fdb0de52a00.jpeg

[NutLoose]

That is still there Sandiego, though not in such good nick.

https://dreamwrecks.com/vulcan-bomber-bahamas-shipwreck

[treadigraph]

...And 9 months later the Skyvan was born!

Or the Sharper...

[chopper2004]

If the aircraft ditched in international waters and the Ruskies happened to find it first is it salvage?

Remember this 80s martial arts flick centering around a CIA agent combatting a KGB agent (Muscles from Belgium playing a bad guy only once) to reach one of the downed F1-11E and its Pave Tack laser after El Dorado Canyon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EYULKfpLSg

In all seriouness glad pilot is ok

cheers

[albatross]

Ooh, Sherky-infested water!

When they were testing this https://missilethreat.csis.org/missile/snark/ so many splashed into the waters around Cape Canaveral that folks referred to the area as the “Snark Infested Waters off Cape Canaveral”. Pretty funny that one, just a bit off course, ended up in the jungles of Brazil.
Sorry for the Thread Drift.

[Melchett01]

Sun reporting that an engine blank might have been missed on the walk round and ingested during take off. Bit of an ooops if correct!

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/16829088/royal-navy-fighter-jet-crash/

[Easy Street]

Sun reporting that an engine blank might have been missed on the walk round and ingested during take off. Bit of an ooops if correct!

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/16829088/royal-navy-fighter-jet-crash/

I wonder where they might have sourced that story from? Goat + Prune = 2 independent sources, right? :rolleyes:

[trim it out]

I wonder where they might have sourced that story from? Goat + Prune = 2 independent sources, right? :rolleyes:
It was all over Instagram way before the forums.

[West Coast]

https://twitter.com/covertshores/status/1462887127574884353?s=21

Orac, what’s the back story behind the pond swimmer?

[Beamr]

Orac, what’s the back story behind the pond swimmer?
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/137139
Ran off the end of the runway on landing at RNAS Yeovilton

[Fonsini]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/583x432/5vccpf_a4913452476e2afbc69d86dc2f426c877cf210cf.jpg

[ORAC]

Other sources now reporting the engine blank story….

https://twitter.com/andynetherwood/status/1463428229197352971?s=21

[trim it out]

Other sources now reporting the engine blank story….

https://twitter.com/andynetherwood/status/1463428229197352971?s=21
"Interesting reading"...Wait til he reads all the DASORs about pitot covers left on during night starts after day time walkrounds. Thrilling reads.

[sandiego89]

The quick return to flight/no grounding, would sure make sense with a simple (but costly) error.

[sandiego89]

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/137139
Ran off the end of the runway on landing at RNAS Yeovilton

I always wondered about that one. Was it a hot conventional (nozzles aft) landing? Was recovery at Yeovilton normally STOL?

[Capt Scribble]

I wonder where they might have sourced that story from? Goat + Prune = 2 independent sources, right? :rolleyes:
From a reliable source it would seem.

[Cat Techie]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x596/checkbook_d31c9155bb14287cd5df5b43cf8c4fd6b096d5c0.jpg


Can we buy another F35B please? Jerry Pook must be laughing his head off at the moment. Another Navy Cock up!

[Cat Techie]

Open and just reporting culture would have this out in the open. Beware Royal Navy Service Enquiry about to fire out a blame game? Was there a requirement to sign for the removal of blanks as an entry on a tech log, even an electronic one as I bet the 35 has? Is on many civvy operators.

[Auxtank]

I am outraged by this.

Seriously? The Sun posts it - Twatter follows it up - all based on (probably) THIS Forum and egoat.

Are you seriously saying that EICAS wouldn't have picked this up at Idle Power?

Even though it'll report the fact that you've left the port side ashtray lid open.

If so, I'm confused as to what the $100M price tag is paying for.

[langleybaston]

If true ["tell me it's not so!"] some Leading hand will get the blame. But what happened to the walk around? Is it back to "kick the tyres and light the fires?"
As a long serving taxpayer I expect that I have paid for a 35 in my lifetime, but not for some silly cheese hole line-up.

And now "they" cannot retrieve it.

Fortunately I am beyond being able to register shock.

The Weber needs its annual inspection and service, that should take my mind off the cockup.

[FODPlod]

Can we buy another F35B please? Jerry Pook must be laughing his head off at the moment. Another Navy Cock up!

How presumptuous. I heard it was an RAF mechanic who mistakenly filled the tank with diesel.

(Let's see how long it takes for that to do the rounds.)

[Ninthace]

Definitely not my area of expertise as my experience of things that leap into the air at short notice is limited to one tour in Gutersloh in the Harrier Force days, but is it even possible to light the fires properly with a blank in, let alone wind it up and send it up the ski jump without noticing something is amiss?

[OwnNav]

Just what I was thinking, the "Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow" sequence would be stymied with blanks in.

[RAFEngO74to09]

For what it's worth, someone posted this on ARRSE:

"Work mate of mine is ex sea harrier maintainer and still has a lot of contacts on the F35 circuit, apparently there are inner and outer intake blanks and its common for the blank to be used as a knee pad while inspecting the first stage compressor disc."

I couldn't see how a properly fitted intake blank could be missed by the aircraft start groundcrew, pilot on walk round, flight deck marshallers, Flight Deck Officer and those in FLYCO.

However, if the malpractice described has been going on, I can see how a folded blank laying in the intake might get missed, particularly if at night, and then not get sucked in until powered right up just prior to the take off roll. I'm still surprised anything laying folded in the intake wasn't sucked in immediately on start.

[tartare]

Genuine question.
You're the driver - and for whatever reason all engine temps and pressures look normal as you taxy to the departure point.
Do we know if this was a short rolling take off in STOVL mode or was it using the ski-jump?
How could you not see some sort of thrust anomaly as you powered up - just before rolling to take off?
You'd see it, hear it and feel it... wouldn't you?

[FD2]

Does 617 Squadron, 'The Dambusters', have RAF ground crew as well as RAF and RN pilots? It's a bit of a long shot to blame the Navy - yet. If it was a dark blue fault then I'm sure a very cold revenge will be sweet. :O

[dctyke]

This could have been so easily avoided, all it wanted was a strap from one blank under the ac to the other blank. Like a lot of twin intake ac had back in the day. Lessons learnt, yeh right 🙄

[GeeRam]

Does 617 Squadron, 'The Dambusters', have RAF ground crew as well as RAF and RN pilots?

Yes.
A mate of mine, his grandson is 617 ground crew embarked on QE.

[golder]

This could have been so easily avoided, all it wanted was a strap from one blank under the ac to the other blank. Like a lot of twin intake ac had back in the day. Lessons learnt, yeh right 🙄
I thought that was a good idea. Then I thought, perhaps they don't want rub marks on the IR coat. From the strap, flapping in the wind?

[Blue_Circle]

I thought that was a good idea. Then I thought, perhaps they don't want rub marks on the IR coat. From the strap, flapping in the wind?
If surface damage is an issue why not connect the inner and outer blanks so that one cannot be removed without the other?

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Another question: if the blank were ingested into the engine, how could it then have been seen 'floating on the surface' in the aftermath of the crash? Surely, it would would been shredded to bits and then burned?

[sandozer]

Another question: if the blank were ingested into the engine, how could it then have been seen 'floating on the surface' in the aftermath of the crash? Surely, it would would been shredded to bits and then burned?


Looks like the first set of blades in front of the turbine is a fixed stator, so chomping would be more problematic.

[Fonsini]

There was a news report yesterday of some minister recommending that carriers be fitted with the gear required to recover jets that crash in the sea. I kid you not.

[SLXOwft]

LB - I trust no Leading Hand is going to be made to carry the can; those placed in authority over him or her should take the blame. If (and until all investigations and SIs/BOIs are finished it's a big if) the loss was caused by negligence on the flightdeck, then I think most of us know where the buck stops. The MAA is pretty clear on the subject:

Transfer of Custody of Air Systems
2301(1) Custody of, and responsibility for, an Air System shall transfer to the Aircraft Commander from the time the acceptance certificate is signed until the after-flight declaration is completed.

Transfer of Custody of Air Systems (Acceptable Means of Compliance)
1. The Aircraft Commander should ensure that they are satisfied with the declared condition of the Air System when the acceptance certificate is signed. If they are not satisfied, they should declare the Air System unserviceable.
2. Once custody of the Air System has been accepted, the Aircraft Commander should authorize and monitor any subsequent Maintenance activity that may be required prior to, or during flight.
3. The Aircraft Commander should ensure that the technical log (MOD Form 700 or equivalent) has been updated to reflect the condition of the Air System when the after-flight declaration is completed and that the symptoms of any new Air System faults have been adequately briefed to the receiving Maintenance organization.

[Ridger]

For what it's worth, someone posted this on ARRSE:

"Work mate of mine is ex sea harrier maintainer and still has a lot of contacts on the F35 circuit, apparently there are inner and outer intake blanks and its common for the blank to be used as a knee pad while inspecting the first stage compressor disc."

I couldn't see how a properly fitted intake blank could be missed by the aircraft start groundcrew, pilot on walk round, flight deck marshallers, Flight Deck Officer and those in FLYCO.

However, if the malpractice described has been going on, I can see how a folded blank laying in the intake might get missed, particularly if at night, and then not get sucked in until powered right up just prior to the take off roll. I'm still surprised anything laying folded in the intake wasn't sucked in immediately on start.

That's the most plausible theory so far IMO. I recall a case where an intake blank on a military helicopter (not UK) was missed by the tow team, maintainer and pilot, then subsequently realised on engine start. All at night.

Despite the described commonality of the malpractice, and there'll be more to this story but given the cost of the loss, I suspect the ORG will arrive at 'reckless' in record time on this one.

[Mogwi]

In 1982, our maintainers came up with a great wheeze for stopping SHAR engine wear from windmilling engines on deck (inflatable blanks would blow out in the wind). They gently inserted a broom handle through the LP fan, which locked it very effectively. This was annotated in the F700 with an entry stating “Broom handle inserted to stop engine rotation” and was cleared with another one stating “Broom handle removed”, before flight.

On one occasion, I went to sign an aircraft out and found the following entry; “Intake inspected - no broom handle found. Uckers pieces removed from underneath cold nozzles”.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uckers

Not only brilliant maintainers, also a great sense of humour!

Swing the lamp,

Mog

[Jet II]

I'm struggling to see why you would need an 'inner and outer' intake blank - you only have 2 intakes so one either side on the front would achieve the desired result as it does with numerous other types of aircraft. I can see that you might have a blank for the top of the Lift Fan if you park up and leave the top door open but is that really normal practice?.

[Easy Street]

If (and until all investigations and SIs/BOIs are finished it's a big if) the loss was caused by negligence on the flightdeck, then I think most of us know where the buck stops. The MAA is pretty clear on the subject:

It's massively complicated by the fact that not all of the F35 intake duct is visible from outside. And I'm led to believe that F35 has some covers which are not visible from outside even when properly fitted. So the crucial question in relation to culpability is whether there is a procedure in place to show all blanks and covers to the commander, to prove they aren't lying somewhere hidden from sight. If there is no such procedure, then the commander is reliant on the word of the flight deck crew that all covers have been removed. (I assume the flight deck crew don't sign the tech log to that effect, as the covers would be off for too long a time). The commander doesn't become responsible for other 'invisible' faults, like loose hydraulic joints or wiring errors, simply by signing for the jet. And crawling down the intake wearing flying kit is not going to do much good for the surface finish!

[Saintsman]

Easily done I suppose, assuming someone else had removed it.

I remember an incident mid 70s where the blank went down the intake of an RAF Phantom on an exercise scramble start at night. Funny enough the pilot was a RN exchange. They made a flight safety film of the events that followed.

[Video Mixdown]

It's massively complicated by the fact that not all of the F35 intake duct is visible from outside. And I'm led to believe that F35 has some covers which are not visible from outside even when properly fitted. So the crucial question in relation to culpability is whether there is a procedure in place to show all blanks and covers to the commander, to prove they aren't lying somewhere hidden from sight. If there is no such procedure, then the commander is reliant on the word of the flight deck crew that all covers have been removed. (I assume the flight deck crew don't sign the tech log to that effect, as the covers would be off for too long a time). The commander doesn't become responsible for other 'invisible' faults, like loose hydraulic joints or wiring errors, simply by signing for the jet. And crawling down the intake wearing flying kit is not going to do much good for the surface finish!
Assuming these reports are somewhere close to the truth, the fact that they have resumed normal flying operations suggests that measures to prevent it from happening again have already been implemented.

[trim it out]

Assuming these reports are somewhere close to the truth, the fact that they have resumed normal flying operations suggests that measures to prevent it from happening again have already been implemented.
New entry in Pilots To See:

"All aircrew are to ensure they remove all blanks on pre-flt walkround.

Any issues are to be directed to the undersigned.

Sqn QFI"

Nipped.

[NutLoose]

Probably lobbed the rest of the blanks over the side, problem sorted.

It reminds me of the stupidity of putting Silica Gel in the intakes of a Vulcan instead of the jetpipe.

[Fortissimo]

So on the basis of a single report from 'a reputable source' published by the Sun and repeated subsequently by a number of other media outlets, an overlooked intake blank has been established in some minds as the definitive cause, leading to a discussion of an anticipated cover-up (no pun intended) by a Navy investigation (they are joint investigations, it will not be a Navy inquiry), a suggestion that a Leading Hand will be found blameworthy (even though there is no indication RN personnel other than the pilot were involved) and an assumption that those above said Leading Hand are actually at fault. As for 'negligence on the flight deck', there is a big difference between someone making a mistake and negligence - is there no room for fatigue, distractions, expectation or confirmation bias, or other human factor mechanisms any more?

[langleybaston]

Not at the price of losing (as in not being able to recover) such an expensive asset.

[Above The Clouds]

LB - I trust no Leading Hand is going to be made to carry the can; those placed in authority over him or her should take the blame. If (and until all investigations and SIs/BOIs are finished it's a big if) the loss was caused by negligence on the flightdeck, then I think most of us know where the buck stops. The MAA is pretty clear on the subject:

Transfer of Custody of Air Systems
2301(1) Custody of, and responsibility for, an Air System shall transfer to the Aircraft Commander from the time the acceptance certificate is signed until the after-flight declaration is completed.

Transfer of Custody of Air Systems (Acceptable Means of Compliance)
1. The Aircraft Commander should ensure that they are satisfied with the declared condition of the Air System when the acceptance certificate is signed. If they are not satisfied, they should declare the Air System unserviceable.
2. Once custody of the Air System has been accepted, the Aircraft Commander should authorize and monitor any subsequent Maintenance activity that may be required prior to, or during flight.
3. The Aircraft Commander should ensure that the technical log (MOD Form 700 or equivalent) has been updated to reflect the condition of the Air System when the after-flight declaration is completed and that the symptoms of any new Air System faults have been adequately briefed to the receiving Maintenance organization.

Well thats a load of boll@@ks ^^^^^, I know from the past that there will be a very slippery shaft from the aircraft commander right down to the leading hand which is the cheapest easier option to place the blame regardless what the Form 700 says.

[Auxtank]

For what it's worth - a couple of mates in Derby have confirmed it wasn't the bits that they made.

osa - a reptile, a new line;
Hello World.

[Gadget freak]

What bits are made in Derby?

[212man]

What bits are made in Derby?
The 'Lift System'

[silverelise]

Out of interest, where are all the "remove before flight" items including engine blanks stored? Is there a requirement for ground crew to show them to the pilot prior to taxi ?

[Auxtank]

What bits are made in Derby?

Oh, a few bits and pieces. . .


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1015x773/dszdzdd_74f59cd5fc4bb8a370a2d84d2f506dbfe767c63a.jpg

[golder]

Probably lobbed the rest of the blanks over the side, problem sorted.

That was the one seen floating. The one that went through the engine is powder and gone forever.

[medod]

For what it's worth, someone posted this on ARRSE:

"Work mate of mine is ex sea harrier maintainer and still has a lot of contacts on the F35 circuit, apparently there are inner and outer intake blanks and its common for the blank to be used as a knee pad while inspecting the first stage compressor disc."

I couldn't see how a properly fitted intake blank could be missed by the aircraft start groundcrew, pilot on walk round, flight deck marshallers, Flight Deck Officer and those in FLYCO.

However, if the malpractice described has been going on, I can see how a folded blank laying in the intake might get missed, particularly if at night, and then not get sucked in until powered right up just prior to the take off roll. I'm still surprised anything laying folded in the intake wasn't sucked in immediately on start.

You've just explained why the statement you've relayed from ARRSE is nonsense.

[DaveJ75]

You've just explained why the statement you've relayed from ARRSE is nonsense.

In which case - please can you elaborate?

The F135 engine has a pretty substantial set of stators before the first compressor stage, so it might not be inconceivable for a folded blank to not fully disrupt proceedings until higher power settings?

[Auxtank]

In which case - please can you elaborate?

The F135 engine has a pretty substantial set of stators before the first compressor stage, so it might not be inconceivable for a folded blank to not fully disrupt proceedings until higher power settings?

Agreed - if the whole thing was being done in Real-Time slow motion.

In REALITY - the thing would have been shredded on Idle - and reported in EICAS.

I think its time to withdraw from a Blanking Plug Theory - it just doesn't sit with the scant evidence so far.

Something more structural happened but, at the same time, something specific to the Pre-Takeoff, etc, etc, that won't necessarily necessitate the grounding of the whole program for gad's sake . . .

[Easy Street]

Yes, obviously something structural happened, specific to an event which happens on every sortie, which resulted in absolutely no pause in F35 ops anywhere 🙄

[Auxtank]

Yes, obviously something structural happened, specific to an event which happens on every sortie, which resulted in absolutely no pause in F35 ops anywhere 🙄

Yep. I'm going to put myself out there and say - cause; Mechanical Failure.

Just who's Mechanicals and bits, washers, oil seals, lock nuts, spinning bits and stuff - we'll probably never know.

But it's far too obvious that it was a bright red piece of foam with a "Remove Before Flight" flag hanging off it.
And I'm well acquainted with a certain Mister Murphy - who wrote his one and only Law.

$100M buys you an aircraft with a Checklist procedure you surely cannot screw up on.

[longer ron]

$100M buys you an aircraft with a Checklist procedure you surely cannot screw up on.

I believe the Hawk intake blanks were mentioned earlier in the thread.
Originally they were separate blanks (ie not tied together) and one day early on in Hawk flying at Brawdy - on the 'Armed' Line - the stbd blank was missed by G/crew and Pilot,engine started ok and taxied round to rwy threshold ok - when the pilot shoved the throttle forward to roll,the blank gave up the ghost and shattered - thence into the engine and wrecked it.
Result - Blanks tied together.
I am not saying it is relevant to this incident but just an illustration of ''if something can be done wrong - somebody will eventually do it wrong''.

[LateArmLive]

Yep. I'm going to put myself out there and say - cause; Mechanical Failure.

Just who's Mechanicals and bits, washers, oil seals, lock nuts, spinning bits and stuff - we'll probably never know.

But it's far too obvious that it was a bright red piece of foam with a "Remove Before Flight" flag hanging off it.
And I'm well acquainted with a certain Mister Murphy - who wrote his one and only Law.

$100M buys you an aircraft with a Checklist procedure you surely cannot screw up on.

I think you're going to feel rather silly when the releasable accident report comes out.

If it was mech failure (which it wasn't), why were all the F35s not grounded until the cause was known?

As for checklist procedures being screwed up, the cost of the system is irrelevant.

[henra]

$100M buys you an aircraft with a Checklist procedure you surely cannot screw up on.
History has proven you otherwise. Nothing is too expensive for a co*k- up. And no: There is no procedure which cannot be screwed up.

[Navaleye]

A CM is the only likely outcome for this once the BOI has reported. Remember in monetary terms this is the same as causing the loss of a River Batch 2 and you can only imagine what would happen then.

Heads will roll without doubt

[dervish]

A CM is the only likely outcome for this once the BOI has reported. Remember in monetary terms this is the same as causing the loss of a River Batch 2 and you can only imagine what would happen then.

Heads will roll without doubt

Wouldn't be surprised if you're right, but surely cost shouldn't be a factor in the decision to CM? pprune is full of examples where no action has been taken for more costly errors resulting in major loss of life.

[dctyke]

History has proven you otherwise. Nothing is too expensive for a co*k- up. And no: There is no procedure which cannot be screwed up.

even losing a nuclear bomb off a towed transportation trolley ……..

[morton]

even losing a nuclear bomb off a towed transportation trolley
If you are talking about Bruggen then it wasn't lost. It fell of the trolley and got a little dent.

[henra]

If you are talking about Bruggen then it wasn't lost. It fell of the trolley and got a little dent.
Denting a Nuke isn't something everyone got on his CV, though... :E

[The Helpful Stacker]

Denting a Nuke isn't something everyone got on his CV, though... :E

Technically, wouldn't it have been the weapon casing that was dented?

Not quite a dramatic as "denting a nuke" though, I guess...

[Ninthace]

even losing a nuclear bomb off a towed transportation trolley
If you are talking about Bruggen then it wasn't lost. It fell of the trolley and got a little dent.
Didn't happen on my watch. Spent yonks sitting in the back of a Puma going nowhere, just in case. Never lifted once, alhamdulillah.

[Ninthace]

even losing a nuclear bomb off a towed transportation trolley
If you are talking about Bruggen then it wasn't lost. It fell of the trolley and got a little dent.
Didn't happen on my watch. Spent yonks sitting in the back of a Puma going nowhere, just in case. Never lifted once, alhamdulillah.

[langleybaston]

Didn't happen on mine either: Met. was potentially heavily involved every time a special was moved, and even more so when one was moved in or out of theatre. Main worry was burn, not bang.

[RAFEngO74to09]

Various nuclear weapon incidents over the years have demonstrated how - even during the most tightly regulated engineering activities - failures by leadership to ensure standards are met and procedures followed actually create more holes in the Swiss cheese making it easier for the holes to align !

The 1984 incident at RAF Bruggen - when a WE177 nuclear weapon - in a transit container because it was being moved between a C-130K and the SSA - fell off a Type SA Trolley being towed by a Land Rover because it was not restrained - was a prime example of correct procedures not being followed - not just on the day in question but going back years.

BOI Narrative of Events here: https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20121110090740/http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/FreedomOfInformation/DisclosureLog/SearchDisclosureLog/NuclearWeaponIncidentInGermany.htm

Again, at RAF Marham in 1988, multiple deviations from the requirements of SD814 - no Weapon Load Supervising Officer on site, Special Weapon Load Team not properly constituted, disoberdience to No Lone Zone procedures, failure to follow loading procedure, unauthorised button pressing - led to a drill WE177 being explosively jettisoned from a Tornado GR1 onto the floor of a HAS. [all procedures for live weapons were supposed to be applied to drill weapons].

[charliegolf]

Didn't happen on my watch. Spent yonks sitting in the back of a Puma going nowhere, just in case. Never lifted once, alhamdulillah.

I seem to recall that generating that airframe and crew was the highest peacetime priority on 230?

CG

[Herod]

Ninthace. "alhamdulillah". Must be fifty years since I last heard that phrase..

[NutLoose]

The 1984 incident at RAF Bruggen - when a WE177 nuclear weapon - in a transit container because it was being moved between a C-130K and the SSA - fell off a Type SA Trolley being towed by a Land Rover because it was not restrained - was a prime example of correct procedures not being followed - not just on the day in question but going back years.

Prime example of not supplying the proper kit in the required quantities to do the job even when requested in writing, believe me handling of them was taken seriously by all involved and a lot of short notice postings occurred. It was surprising how quickly it was sorted with very few knowing what had happened, we did on the Sqns, but bar that it was known by a few others involved with them day to day and no one else.

[twothree]

Back in the day, the squadron stores officer would have noticed the following!!
The pilot having been recovered from the drink, has lost the 2 aircrew watches he was wearing on each wrist.
Because of the cold weather/sea temperature, he was wearing 2 pair of flying gloves, and those had been ripped of during the ejection.
Also due to the cold weather/sea temperature the two flight suits he was wearing are now soaked in salt water and have shrunk. He had borrowed one from the stores officer.
It was also noticed that the aircraft had managed to get airborne with several squadron coloured tie-down chains attached to the main undercarriage legs.
It was also noted, that as the carrier "violently" manoeuvred to void the doomed aircraft and the pilot in the water, several other items of squadron stores went over the side from the flight deck. e.g. Intake blanks, chocks etc. (To be confirmed after audit).
Although the stores officer from one of the other squadrons on board had noticed a couple of items belonging to him attached to the aircraft as it went in, it was difficult to prove. However, in "consultation", it was also noticed that a couple of intake blanks belonging to the other squadron had also gone over the side during the violent avoidance manoeuvre.
The pilot always flew with a substantial "diversion kit", which unfortunately went down with the aircraft, the contents of which, the stores officer would confirm to the pilot's insurance company.
Need I go on!!

[Ninthace]

Seems fair, on investigation a fair bit of my inventory turned out to have been on the Atlantic Conveyor and I wasn't even posted to the unit at the time of the sinking.

[melmothtw]

Footage of the incident has made its way online.... https://twitter.com/sebh1981/status/1465351592018956295

[RAFEngO74to09]

You can see the thrust is well down on normal even from the start of the take-off roll.

[silverelise]

You can see the thrust is well down on normal even from the start of the take-off roll.
The video doesn't show the start of the take off roll though I agree it looks down on power but then normal take offs look slow to my eye. For context this is an F35B taking off from the Queen Elizabeth successfully (3min 14seconds in)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJswaDq-9iA&t=194s

[Davef68]

And looks like, as rumoured, his/her parachute did snag on the ramp end

[gums]

Salute!

Holy smoley, batman!
I wanna see what the ejectee says about when deciding to get outta there. Looks like waited to clear the ramp, or couldn't tell if the motor was full power or a failed check speed.
Regardless, pretty hairy.

Gums sends...

[Mil-26Man]

Salute!

Holy smoley, batman!
I wanna see what the ejectee says about when deciding to get outta there. Looks like waited to clear the ramp, or couldn't tell if the motor was full power or a failed check speed.
Regardless, pretty hairy.

Gums sends...

Do you think the pilot ejected, or was ejected? Genuine question, I understand the F-35 has an auto eject function under some parameters (falling off the ramp would be one, I expect).

[Jetstream67]

Do you think the pilot ejected, or was ejected? Genuine question, I understand the F-35 has an auto eject function under some parameters (falling off the ramp would be one, I expect).

Low altitude and failure of the lift fan triggers it IIRC.

Not sure if the fan needs to be in pieces already or just not turning fast enough/no lift would do to tick that box.
Presumably once the wheels are off the carrier the Low altitude box is also ticked . .

[cynicalint]

Telegraph headline, British F-35 crashed into sea after failing to take off, leaked video reveals.
Well no sh1t sherlock!

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Ouch and double ouch.

So will the inquiry into the leaked video take precedence over the loss of the aircraft. Someone is in deep doo-dah.

[Cat Techie]

Telegraph headline,British F-35 crashed into sea after failing to take off, leaked video reveals.
Well no sh1t sherlock!
Wasn't it required reading of the Telegraph to progress in OACS? Why I have no idea as it is so out of tune with the real world.

[Cat Techie]

Ouch and double ouch.

So will the inquiry into the leaked video take precedence over the loss of the aircraft. Someone is in deep doo-dah.

That should have been impounded as evidence so Capt QE is at fault.

[cynicalint]

Wasn't it required reading of the Telegraph to progress in OACS? Why I have no idea as it is so out of tune with the real world.]

No, not really, I used to recommend candidates to read any broadsheet in preference to tabloids, tabloids in preference to social media. The candidates opinion was the most important, as long as the view could be backed up and justified, then the paper read made no difference.
That headline makes as much sense as the very early crash report that blamed "A lack of lift in the air" for an incompetent pilot. Though I am most certainly NOT suggesting pilot incompetence here; more like journalistic incompetence.!

[oldmansquipper]

And looks like, as rumoured, his/her parachute did snag on the ramp end


Seems like the parachute canopy was hung out to dry quite quickly…

one can only hope that the scrote who leaked the video to the meejah, is hung out to dry as well.

[langleybaston]

Quite so.
My wife rations me to one expletive when I read D Tel online each post-breakfast. It is never long in coming. The standard of journalism is appalling, and it appears that sub-editors and proof-readers no longer exist.
One expletive allowed, but loud. It usually involves gonads.

Back to basics, one imagines that a fair proportion of the fleet is condemned to loiter in the area, much as the blockade of the French coastal ports in Nelson's time.

[Cat Techie]

Wasn't it required reading of the Telegraph to progress in OACS? Why I have no idea as it is so out of tune with the real world.]

No, not really, I used to recommend candidates to read any broadsheet in preference to tabloids, tabloids in preference to social media. The candidates opinion was the most important, as long as the view could be backed up and justified, then the paper read made no difference.
That headline makes as much sense as the very early crash report that blamed "A lack of lift in the air" for an incompetent pilot. Though I am most certainly NOT suggesting pilot incompetence here; more like journalistic incompetence.!

I did like the i newspaper. Not a board sheet, but it told you the news in factual format. You read the Telegraph and it is so bias in editoral outlook to be corrupt. One can say the same about the Gaurdian (Not Rondot's favourite journal but it avoided Viz material being painted on his aircraft!) I miss a news paper that just tells me facts without fiction, especially Paul Darce / Boris levels (the Spectator is the worst lying rag on the planet). I know one facebook group on aircraft is fact as fiction is editorally removed if bull is mentioned.

[tartare]

The jet looked like it barely had enough thrust to roll up the ramp - you can see it slow slightly as it hit the incline.
Surely temperatures and pressures would be showing not enough power to commit to take off...

[SpazSinbad]

Video (now cropped) - one may see probably bits from ejection seat plopping on the centre-line of the ski jump. I guess/HOPE the pilot waited for QE to stop before releasing himself from 'hung up'? chute?

UK F-35B Pilot Ejects Off QE Ski Jump Rescued OK 17 Nov 2021

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-txlqNe08jA

[Cat Techie]

The jet looked like it barely had enough thrust to roll up the ramp - you can see it slow slightly as it hit the incline.
Surely temperatures and pressures would be showing not enough power to commit to take off...
What pressure is ever mentioned to the pilot bar a civvy pilot on a Roller powered civvy type with EPR? N2/N1 RPM, Temp and Fuel Flow is the only info shown on any gauge / screen or other military/civvy types? All 3 of my ratings do not mention EPR at all (well the one jet doesn't). No military type I know mentions pressures.

[H Peacock]

How on earth did the F35 driver not detect that huge lack of acceleration?

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

How on earth did the F35 driver not detect that huge lack of acceleration?
Sims don't simulate thrust.
Probably his previous 10 sorties were sat in front of giant samsung monitors.

[NutLoose]

What pressure is ever mentioned to the pilot bar a civvy pilot on a Roller powered civvy type with EPR? N2/N1 RPM, Temp and Fuel Flow is the only info shown on any gauge / screen or other military/civvy types? All 3 of my ratings do not mention EPR at all (well the one jet doesn't). No military type I know mentions pressures.
Errr low oil pressure warning lights, low fuel pressure warning lights and hydraulic system pressure? It does not need to be a gauge at all.

[Cat Techie]

Errr low oil pressure warning lights, low fuel pressure warning lights and hydraulic system pressure? It does not need to be a gauge at all.
They are distractions to the wind down. Secondary considerations. I do engine runs in work and pleasure. The gauges are main. You run a gas turbine recently? Warning and Caution lights would have been coming on as he banged out!

[switch_on_lofty]

Sims don't simulate thrust.
Probably his previous 10 sorties were sat in front of giant samsung monitors.
Amen to that. Cutting of live flying and training, moving more and more to the sim has a human element. I'll be surprised if this wasn't a factor.

[tartare]

They are distractions to the wind down. Secondary considerations. I do engine runs in work and pleasure. The gauges are main. You run a gas turbine recently? Warning and Caution lights would have been coming on as he banged out!

My question is surely the pilot would have had multiple indications ("do you see it, do you hear it, do you feel it?" as instructors will say) that the jet was not developing enough power to take off?

[Cat Techie]

Sims don't simulate thrust.
Probably his previous 10 sorties were sat in front of giant samsung monitors.
Bet he flew a few profiles off land first. Please tell us you are involved with the JSF programme? Your statement makes me think not. Let us not confuse the Daily Telegraph journo reading this.

[Cat Techie]

My question is surely the pilot would have had multiple indications ("do you see it, do you hear it, do you feel it?" as instructors will say) that the jet was not developing enough power to take off?
Oil pressures tend to be the first lights to go out and last to come on. Flow would fall away but that is a function of HP pump draw, tied to RPM. Hyd pressures have an accumulator that holds some system pressure against the transmitter so drop is delayed. The pilot had deceleration and RPM wind down as a decision. It was falling off the end of the ramp. Pull handle.That simple a get out decision. Sorry gents, I worked as a certifier on a jet airliner last week. I know how systems work and have currency. Even with my off shift wine content. Journo reading this. Flying machines are called aircraft, not planes.Sort your use of the English language out!

[FODPlod]

…Another Navy Cock up!

That should have been impounded as evidence so Capt QE is at fault.

You certainly seem to have an agenda. How could the Captain impound a video of a video being played on a monitor somewhere?

[Cat Techie]

You certainly seem to have an agenda. How could the Captain impound a video of a video being played on a monitor somewhere?
Was not on a RAF airfield. I doubt that video was leaked by anyone from the RAF. Ships crew released that. The Captain has a problem with his company. I work for a civvy company that has good leaders and doesn't have the problem of a rogue person throwing rubbish out. It also has a secure paperwork proceedure for removal of blanks in a tech log. From a lesson learned I wager. More problems that the RAF or RN have as well! Faye Turney's I Phone is alive and well.

[tartare]

I assume the jet would have had way too much inertia to reject the take off, chop the power and apply full brakes at or near the bottom of the ramp?

[H Peacock]

I assume the jet would have had way too much inertia to reject the take off, chop the power and apply full brakes at or near the bottom of the ramp?

Perhaps, but worth a bloody good try if you know you have a fundamental loss of thrust and that you’ll be ejecting if you can’t stop!

[Cat Techie]

I assume the jet would have had way too much inertia to reject the take off, chop the power and apply full brakes at or near the bottom of the ramp?

The engine was fodded just after he started to roll. Just as the infamous Vulcan eat the sillica gel bag episode happened. Jet was rolling before intake suction release the "ate" item that should not have been there. The pilot had no chance to work out the failure and stop. Wonder if the service enquiry will try the "Sully Sim" save the aircraft sketch?

[tartare]

Reason I ask is that it is decelerating as it goes up the ramp (whether due to a loss of speed due to the incline, or braking/reduced power).
And the noise doesn't decrease or change in pitch which suggests the throttle wasn't suddenly closed.
Could be a multiplicity of factors in play.
Although they're heavily trained not to - pilot startles and doesn't react quickly enough to insufficient power?
*If* it's an ingested blank, it moves suddenly during take off roll and degrades thrust?
Will be a very interesting accident report.
Not blaming the driver - just trying to understand the possibilities.

[SpazSinbad]

In the first part of this compilation video the A4G pilot is standing on the brakes hoping to stop with FLYCO calling 'EJECT' which he does at the end to be rescued OK. Similarly we hear the pilot in the second video explaining what has happened so he is rescued OK with no ejection. It was calculated that IF he had ejected as the aircraft was DIVING down then he would not have survived. First cold cat (last catapult of an A4G) caused by cat crew in a hurry not carrying out all check procedures. Second cold cat cause never discovered with many replication attempts (not with an aircraft attached of course).

RAN Skyhawk A4Gs 885 & 889 Cold Catapult Ejections - 2nd 'not quite' - Both Pilots OK - Compilation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4pBkzGdmYE

[tartare]

In the first part of this compilation video the A4G pilot is standing on the brakes hoping to stop with FLYCO calling 'EJECT' which he does at the end to be rescued OK. Similarly we hear the pilot in the second video explaining what has happened so he is rescued OK with no ejection. It was calculated that IF he had ejected as the aircraft was DIVING down then he would not have survived. First cold cat (last catapult of an A4G) caused by cat crew in a hurry not carrying out all check procedures. Second cold cat cause never discovered with many replication attempts (not with an aircraft attached of course).

RAN Skyhawk A4Gs 885 & 889 Cold Catapult Ejections - 2nd 'not quite' - Both Pilots OK - Compilation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4pBkzGdmYE

Jeez - lucky man.

[typerated]

Wheel brakes stuck partially on?

[SRMman]

It seems to me from the video that the aircraft is initially accelerating, but just after entering the ramp it starts to slow, possibly with brakes applied, but too late to stop.

[LateArmLive]

How on earth did the F35 driver not detect that huge lack of acceleration?

I wonder how many of the experts commenting here have experience flying the F35...

[tucumseh]

Bu**er the £100M. The pilot is safe. And well done Martin-Baker who, 3 years ago in court, were accused by MoD and the HSE of not understanding how their designs work. This incident made it 7662 aircrew and families who disagree.

[safetypee]

The Harrier required a takeoff distance calculation - brakes off to ramp, to accommodate differing mass.

Does the F-35 require a similar calculation; if so, is the distance to the start of ramp or top of ramp (cf Harrier incident with miscalculated distance).

[typerated]

I wonder how many of the experts commenting here have experience flying the F35...

Fair but lots of people on here fly aeroplanes!

On the face of it seems there should have been plenty of clues it was non-normal.

[sfm818]

Any record of Harrier ejections on take off from an Invincible class due loss of performance on the ski-jump? Or is this incident a first for STOVL carrier ops.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x547/img_20211130_050803_460142923bc470190e0fd232da96286ca0d3c75b .jpg

[the_flying_cop]

Sims don't simulate thrust.
Probably his previous 10 sorties were sat in front of giant samsung monitors.

Absolutely believe this is a big part of the problem, based purely on my Joe Public's perspective.


One thing I have noticed and this is only from the original video clip posted on Twitter. The Nozzle position seems to move from 1/2 down at the start, to fully rear on the roll, then to full down as it goes up the ramp. Is this normal for it to change positions on a take off roll, or is this potentially due to the loss of thrust?

[superplum]

Bu**er the £100M. The pilot is safe. And well done Martin-Baker who, 3 years ago in court, were accused by MoD and the HSE of not understanding how their designs work. This incident made it 7662 aircrew and families who disagree.


Ditto: MB did their stuff - c10secs from rockets to splash with full canopy deployed.
:ok:

[muppetofthenorth]

Absolutely believe this is a big part of the problem, based purely on my Joe Public's perspective.


One thing I have noticed and this is only from the original video clip posted on Twitter. The Nozzle position seems to move from 1/2 down at the start, to fully rear on the roll, then to full down as it goes up the ramp. Is this normal for it to change positions on a take off roll, or is this potentially due to the loss of thrust?
I guessed the change was due to him trying desperately to stop.

[MATELO]

The pilot had no chance to work out the failure and stop.

Apart from the walk around. If the rain cover story holds credence.

[WHBM]

Was not on a RAF airfield. I doubt that video was leaked by anyone from the RAF. Ships crew released that. The Captain has a problem with his company.
This is 2021. That will have been shared almost immediately with Whitehall, etc and key others ashore. I bet the Secretary for Defence, Ben Wallace, who of course has to stand up in Parliament and announce a loss of £100m of public assets, saw it within a few hours. Plus all his officials ...

[Trim Stab]

Absolutely believe this is a big part of the problem, based purely on my Joe Public's perspective.


One thing I have noticed and this is only from the original video clip posted on Twitter. The Nozzle position seems to move from 1/2 down at the start, to fully rear on the roll, then to full down as it goes up the ramp. Is this normal for it to change positions on a take off roll, or is this potentially due to the loss of thrust?

Presumably all the F35 variants have sophisticated software to calculate and monitor take off performance, with various automatic safeguards to abort take off run or at least warn pilot unless all systems are normal before take off abort speed.

But I wonder whether the software also caters for ski-jump takeoffs? Ski-jump takeoffs were not part of the original USMC requirement, and I believe were only added fairly late in the development programme as an RN/RAF requirement.

[pasta]

Was not on a RAF airfield. I doubt that video was leaked by anyone from the RAF. Ships crew released that. The Captain has a problem with his company. I work for a civvy company that has good leaders and doesn't have the problem of a rogue person throwing rubbish out. It also has a secure paperwork proceedure for removal of blanks in a tech log. From a lesson learned I wager. More problems that the RAF or RN have as well! Faye Turney's I Phone is alive and well.
No particular reason to believe the video was leaked by anyone on board. By this stage it's likely been shared quite legitimately with multiple organisations, civilian contractors etc; the leak could have originated from any of them.

[megan]

No particular reason to believe the video was leaked by anyone on board. By this stage it's likely been shared quite legitimately with multiple organisations, civilian contractors etc; the leak could have originated from any of themI'd assume the RN retains the practice whereby all take offs and landings on carriers are video taped.Flying machines are called aircraft, not planes.Sort your use of the English language outYou need to get out more, one service has had "plane captains" for yonks, and they don't wear four stripes.

I know one element of the auto eject is based on pitch rate, example being loss of the fan in the hover, pitch rate is such that a pilot can not react in sufficient time to save him/herself.

[Timelord]

Is there ever any possibility of aborting a ski jump launch once the brakes are off?

[Mogwi]

Is there ever any possibility of aborting a ski jump launch once the brakes are off?


Talking SHAR here: If you got full power (c2.4 secs after wheel-drag) you were going off the front one way or the other. If the brakes failed to release, it made no difference, you just got flat wheels. Average deck run was only in the region of 4 seconds, so not much time for faffing about.

I have no info on the Dave but I guess it is similar.

BZ M-B!

Mog

[Navaleye]

In my time endangering an aircraft could attract a CM. I think this falls into that category

[ex-fast-jets]

Clearly I have no idea what happened here, but.........

During my time on HERMES in 82, a fellow GR3 mate was due to take off and was lined up at a distance from the front end which he thought was too short based on his VSTOL calculations and the given wind over deck. He said "that is too short", but was told no, that is the correct distance. After a minor discussion, he did what was required by the RN - "do as you are told" - confirmed that his "Master Arm" was on, visually checked for the "Clear Aircraft" bar, and "did as he was told".

Of no surprise when he left the front end, he was not climbing away to fly, but sinking towards the oggin - so he pressed the "Clear Aircraft" bar, which reduced his weight sufficiently to fly away.

Well done him - but I don't think he got a "BZ" from the RN - or the RAF - for saving the aircraft - or even an acknowledgment that he was correct, and the RN was wrong.

Obviously no prospect of a repeat error in the current climate!!

[RAFEngO74to09]

From a retired FAA pilot - who probably has contacts:

Chris Bolton on Twitter: "@BlickyIan Apparently brakes hold to 33%. Mark was limited at 73% due FOD. Couldn’t stop. Or go. Cover was down an S bend intake and apparently not visible on walk around. Procedure to show all pre flights completed is being introduced. US@C had a similar incident, but not widely reported." / Twitter

[Timelord]

Thanks Mog and EFJ. So I suppose that, even if the pilot senses or is informed of a loss of thrust, the only thing he/she can do is sit with it and hope that it flies and be ready to eject.

[Cat Techie]

This is 2021. That will have been shared almost immediately with Whitehall, etc and key others ashore. I bet the Secretary for Defence, Ben Wallace, who of course has to stand up in Parliament and announce a loss of £100m of public assets, saw it within a few hours. Plus all his officials ...
Indeed I wager they did. It is still evidence into the enquiry mind. Not as much as whatever remains in the core of that F135 or was thrown out behind the jet on the ski jump. Swiss cheese everywhere.

[RAFEngO74to09]

Thanks Mog and EFJ. So I suppose that, even if the pilot senses or is informed of a loss of thrust, the only thing he/she can do is sit with it and hope that it flies and be ready to eject.

From brake release at 33% thrust, rolling to airborne off the end of the ramp on a successful takeoff is just under 7 seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBoyP9CNjq0

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

How often have we seen on these pages "lessons have been learnt" etc, then we see this...

Procedure to show all pre flights completed is being introduced. US@C had a similar incident, but not widely reported.

Cat Techie , no I am not part of the JSF program but I, like others, have a real concern about an over- reliance on simulators. I know a couple of the F35 guys and a good few Typhoon pilots too. I know which ones get more time doing real flying.

Serious question... do pilots do a "simulated" walkround before a sim trip?

[Timelord]

In the sim I ran it was pretty hard to get the crews to do any checks prior to the end of the runway. They always wanted a “hot start” . It was a hobby horse of mine; if you want sims to count as flying you have to do every element of the sortie, including start up and taxi back / shut down. When we did do “cold” starts we would sometimes say “I am holding up x pins” where x was the wrong number.

[safetypee]

Re question: #216, “ ? … a takeoff distance calculation - brakes off to ramp, to accommodate differing mass.”

From the video #236, the first aircraft starts after ‘the line’ (‘2’), the second from behind the line; why the different ground roll … mass ?

The leaked video appears to have a shorter ground roll than both.

[draken55]

"Procedure to show all pre flights completed is being introduced. US@C had a similair incident, but not widely reported.

This accident took place towards the end of a what has been a long and successful deployment with numerous launches from QNLZ by RAF, USMC and Italian F-35B's.
I can't see how any difference in pre flight procedures would not have been noted and incorporated long before this event took place.
Surely USMC, RAF and RN air and ground crew have been working together closely enough to have raised this similair incident?

[Mogwi]

Re question: #216, “ ? … a takeoff distance calculation - brakes off to ramp, to accommodate differing mass.”

From the video #236, the first aircraft starts after ‘the line’ (‘2’), the second from behind the line; why the different ground roll … mass ?

The leaked video appears to have a shorter ground roll than both.

Once again SHAR info. Min distance was dictated by min ramp exit speed required to fly away (about Vs/2 on a 12 degree ramp). Max distance was dictated by stresses on nose wheel leg during ramp entrance and exit. Starting the roll anywhere between min and max was OK and would be decided by the FDO dependant upon deck utilisation.

I suspect that the same applies to Dave.

Mog

[Cat Techie]

How often have we seen on these pages "lessons have been learnt" etc, then we see this...

Procedure to show all pre flights completed is being introduced. US@C had a similar incident, but not widely reported.

Cat Techie , no I am not part of the JSF program but I, like others, have a real concern about an over- reliance on simulators. I know a couple of the F35 guys and a good few Typhoon pilots too. I know which ones get more time doing real flying.

Serious question... do pilots do a "simulated" walkround before a sim trip?

I agree. However if a T-bird doesn't exist for a type, what else is there to use? Back to Hunter T7s? Am I correct that all the Typhoon T birds are retired now? I do know someone with the former crowd and suspect he would agree with you (off the record).

As for proceedure. Civvy turboprops I am involved with have strops and blanks fitted as policy. With a tech log entry obvious to the Captain that they are fitted. They are signed for being removed by morning engineers or the Captain if no engineer is available. Simple but effective.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

29Sqn will utilize a Typhoon T2 if available, and they are used for training still but nowadays a Typhoon pilot's first flight on type, he will be on his own.
At that point they are "fairly" experienced aviators but will have zero concept of when it "doesn't feel right".
I don't know the solution but can see at least part of the problem.

[AlanM]

I seem to recall that generating that airframe and crew was the highest peacetime priority on 230?

CG

Yep - that and picking up AOC RAFG from Wegberg Strip….

i used to work in SHFHQ in the early 90s - tasking that airframe to go and sit on it’s ass all day. Walking around Güt carrying a leather bag with a pointless key on a chain, containing a signal marked UK eyes Alpha was a highlight of my career. Along with booking it in at the registry and entering the task onto BRAMIS….

[Davef68]

From a retired FAA pilot - who probably has contacts:

First tweet in that thread gives alleged answer to earlier questions - and some possible security questions

https://twitter.com/CcibChris/status/1465654640645656579?s=20

[RAFEngO74to09]

First tweet in that thread gives alleged answer to earlier questions - and some possible security questions

https://twitter.com/CcibChris/status/1465654640645656579?s=20

It was clear from the video yesterday when it first appeared that it had been recorded using a mobile phone from a Visual Surveillance System (VSS) workstation - probably in Flyco - you can see the large windows at the beginning of the clip along with the VSS terminal ID.

Just having a mobile phone in there is - or should be - a violation of TEMPEST protocols.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_(codename)

The VSS comprises 220 cameras covering the entire ship - to allow monitoring of engine and machinery spaces, external catwalk, aircraft hangars, ship entrances and access to classified areas

https://www.baesystems.com/en/article/nation-s-flagship-takes-to-sea-for-the-first-time

Any official transfer of the video to higher HQ immediately after the accident would almost certainly have been by e-mailing the relevant file - there would be no need to use a phone to make a low resolution copy for authorized official use.

The person who first posted the video on Twitter - credited by multiple on-line aviation magazines and cable / TV outlets - claimed he received it via WhatsApp from a civilian.

So there is little doubt that there is a lot of work to do in tightening up physical and cyber security on board.

[ALTSEL]

Quite frankly- having retired recently as a training captain from a UK civilian jet operation and paying tax on pension income I am pissed off sponsoring flight crew (£90,000,000) who launch from a military site ,( in peacetime'ish) and have not complied with very basic airmanship.

[MPN11]

“Need to Know” meets Social Media. Is anyone surprised who comes off worse?

[Auxtank]

It was clear from the video yesterday when it first appeared that it had been recorded using a mobile phone from a Visual Surveillance System (VSS) workstation - probably in Flyco - you can see the large windows at the beginning of the clip along with the VSS terminal ID.

Just having a mobile phone in there is - or should be - a violation of TEMPEST protocols.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_(codename)

The VSS comprises 220 cameras covering the entire ship - to allow monitoring of engine and machinery spaces, external catwalk, aircraft hangars, ship entrances and access to classified areas

https://www.baesystems.com/en/article/nation-s-flagship-takes-to-sea-for-the-first-time

Any official transfer of the video to higher HQ immediately after the accident would almost certainly have been by e-mailing the relevant file - there would be no need to use a phone to make a low resolution copy for authorized official use.

The person who first posted the video on Twitter - credited by multiple on-line aviation magazines and cable / TV outlets - claimed he received it via WhatsApp from a civilian.

So there is little doubt that there is a lot of work to do in tightening up physical and cyber security on board.


Yeah, it being 2021 and all it was probs an Officer. Yeet him off that boat, homs.


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1300x956/hms_queen_elizabeth_aircraft_carrier_jxen1h_a621d12c99bc8bbb 0066733ea0caa8783c4eedf4.jpg

[cynicalint]

Altsel,
Quite frankly- having retired recently as a training captain from a UK civilian jet operation and paying tax on pension income I am pissed off sponsoring flight crew (£90,000,000) who launch from a military site ,( in peacetime'ish) and have not complied with very basic airmanship.
I'm sure that RAF/Naval aircrew would love to earn 90 million pounds!

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Quite frankly- having retired recently as a training captain from a UK civilian jet operation and paying tax on pension income I am pissed off sponsoring flight crew (£90,000,000) who launch from a military site ,( in peacetime'ish) and have not complied with very basic airmanship.

May I ask which bit of "basic airmanship" has anyone failed to comply with?

If someone were to have left a spanner deep within the works, would it be the pilot's fault?

Seems to me the pilot did his best given the hand he was dealt. The most important part, he is here to tell his side of things.

[SpazSinbad]

"...“Then you push the throttle about halfway up the throttle slide into a detent position at about 34% engine thrust request. It sits there and you check the engine gauges: if the readings are okay you slam the throttle to either Mil or Max position and then release the brakes simultaneously. Pushing through to max is like an afterburner detent. But it’s not an afterburner – you can’t go to afterburner in mode four. “It’s a very fast acceleration. The closest we would spot from the bow is 400 feet, so about 175 feet before we would actually start rotating the aeroplane [at the STO rotation line]; so very, very quick.”..." Maj. Rusnok Test Pilot July 2014 AIR International [can't stop italics - apologies]

F-35B STO & CVF Ski Jump INFO 30NOV17 PRN pp172.pdf : http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=26013 (11Mb)