View Full Version : Helicopter at night - No Navigation Lights
Hi all,
There is a helicopter that has been flying at night with no navigation lights.
At the local Airport (Where various choppers are located), I enquired and was told it's a Police Helicopter and they are allowed to do it.
Is this true, as I would have thought that Aviation rules were set in stone...?
I finally managed to film it with my phone last night. It's close to 8:00pm and it is dark. So the quality is poor - but proves my belief (that there are no lights activated).
When the chopper is low, you can make out the 'whiteish glow' of the cabin. That is the only illumination.
Obviously, if it is a Police Chopper, then one assumes it's so the bad guys can't see it...?
Filmed in SEQ on the Gold Coast.
If the post is ok by the Mods, I will leave the YouTube link so you can all see it.
Cheers,
Obba.
Ascend Charlie
4th Nov 2021, 21:55
Yes of course they are allowed to do it.
On a surveillance operation, do you want the bad guys to see it coming, or flying lazy circles in the sky? There is no disguising the sound, but it is hard to localise the sound to a point at night, so with the lights off there is a better chance that the particular bad guys on the ground will think it is watching somebody else, and continue with their operations. Usually the chopper is up in controlled airspace and ATC keeps others well clear.
Take down your Yoochoob video, it is not doing any good.
alfaman
4th Nov 2021, 22:56
This may help: https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/default/files/_assets/main/rules/miscinst/2009/casaex44.pdf?acsf_files_redirect
Ah, thanks guys.
Just wanted to ask as it's a pretty unusual thing to see and a sort of spooky thing to hear a chopper, knowing it's right above ones head and you cant' see anything....
We also get a few private light plane (Cessna 152 stuff), doing the Coastline night viewing on a regular basis . So I assume that if the Cops need to go up in surveillance mode, they have to postpone it.
AC, no YouTube video to remove buddy as I left the videos in a 'Only allow people you want to see it' mode. So no public viewing - only us 'professionals'. :)
However, if anyone is interested let me know and I'll post a link - that all on this Rotorhead section of the forum will have access to view.
Thanks Alfaman for the doc. Interesting reading.
Cheers,
Obba.
Checklist Charlie
5th Nov 2021, 01:13
https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/defaul...files_redirect (https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/default/files/_assets/main/rules/miscinst/2009/casaex44.pdf?acsf_files_redirect)
I note that particular Instrument applied only in NSW and expired in 2011.
`The OP was referring to QLD
CC
Tickle
5th Nov 2021, 01:46
VicPol's AW139s do it from time to time here in Melbourne. It's a good way to train yourself to use your peripheral vision to track something.
There's also a twin-engine turboprop which does it too at night, I assume it's their King Air.
Locally, from time to time, we see three unlit CV-22 in V formation making landings at the airport which has all its ground lighting off as well.
John Eacott
5th Nov 2021, 10:34
The OP seems to think it unusual: the QPol Bo105s fly at night lights out all the time, I've never seen them with the lights on. Everyone on the Goldie know about it and I've never heard it as an issue; these days most of my friends are motorbike riders who accept it as the norm.
One of the few times I flew Daphne lights out was to 'chase' a UFO out toward Ballarat. Passing 11,000ft I suggested to Melbourne that there was little chance of catching Jupiter so could I turn round and get some fuel, please?
Locally, from time to time, we see three unlit CV-22 in V formation making landings at the airport which has all its ground lighting off as well. they won't be 'lights out' but using IR lighting and NVD - you just can't see them without wearing NVGs yourself.
Robbiee
5th Nov 2021, 15:07
On my night rental (sorry, self-fly-hire) checkout the instructor had me turn off all my lights in a hover at a dark corner of the airport and do some pickups and set downs many, many moons ago.
Also had a dude in a Blackhawk come on the radio (while I was doing my night currency circuits) and ask the airport if they'd turn off all the lights so he could do an NVG approach. That was kinda cool.
Had a couple of birds fly under my blades while on an approach one night. They didn't have lights on either. :ooh:
alfaman
5th Nov 2021, 16:58
I note that particular Instrument applied only in NSW and expired in 2011.
`The OP was referring to QLD
CC
I said it may help - he said it did. That's good enough for me :)
It’s standard NVIS ops. In Australia and if exempt you can turn off the external aircraft lighting if operationally required. It’s normally used for operations below LSALT so there should be no other traffic unless they are also NVIS. The aircraft lighting can interfere with operations most notably for winching it can interfere with the Crewman vision. I personally only turn them off when requested from the back which isn’t that often and it’s often only the strobes they want off. The tricky bit is remembering to turn the lights back on after winching.
There still remains the responsibility to remain clear of other aircraft and where there is a risk you just turn the lights back on.
Police operations may apply the rules differently from HEMS but I would be surprised if they are not operating within the regs.
they won't be 'lights out' but using IR lighting and NVD - you just can't see them without wearing NVGs yourselfNVGs? Luxury, you chaps are spoilt, :p I remember lights out flying in trail on assaults where we used the glow of the turbine wheel in the aircraft (Huey) ahead for station keeping.
The glow of a turbine wheel? You were lucky! In my day we didn't have turbine wheels to look at etc etc etc - borrowed from a Monty Python sketch if you're not familiar:)
https://youtu.be/ue7wM0QC5LE
Heston
6th Nov 2021, 12:16
I just discovered that "the four Yorkshiremen" sketch wasn't originally Monty Python! It was written by Tim Brooke Taylor.
https://youtu.be/xqeZos7pm74
AH64 Apaches are regularly over and near my village of Chedburgh, near Bury St. Edmunds minus lights, obviously on a night ex near Chedburgh airfield, sometimes as late as 11 p.m. Low enough to see instrument glow. Some people complain about them being so late, but not me. They are from Wattisham of course.
Flying Bull
6th Nov 2021, 18:30
Well, seems strange for the normal guy, but its quite common used ;-)
Depending on the task - we switch on tactical (IR) lights, so the others using NVG can see us.
Its normaly coordinated with ATC
ShyTorque
6th Nov 2021, 21:45
AH64 Apaches are regularly over and near my village of Chedburgh, near Bury St. Edmunds minus lights, obviously on a night ex near Chedburgh airfield, sometimes as late as 11 p.m. Low enough to see instrument glow. Some people complain about them being so late, but not me. They are from Wattisham of course.
It’s not uncommon for NOTAMs to be issued for low flying aircraft operating without lights in that area.