Sydney Airport Approach Control

[Dehavillanddriver]

https://www.change.org/p/airservices-australia-reduce-noise-and-delays-by-keeping-air-traffic-control-in-sydney?redirect=false

This may interest some.

Mods - remove if this is inappropriate

[Torukmacto]

Really ? Sydney vs Melbourne? We going there !

[On Track]

It is hard to see how any good could come of this. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[Troo believer]

Got a better idea. Outsource ASA to the USA or UK and do it properly.

[CompleteElite]

"Lack of local knowledge and inexperience"... what, do they walk around the streets staring at the sky during their training or something?
A chart's a chart and a map's a map. What difference does it make...? I'm pretty sure Adelaide does okay, or, wait a hot second.. maybe a bunch of Adelaide born controllers should fire up a squad to control the local airspace, that would be way more efficient!

[neville_nobody]

The issue is more the STARS than the controllers. If they could free up all the height restrictions everywhere and stop dragging everyone around the metro area at 6000' it would actually make a difference.

[smiling monkey]

Who needs local knowledge when ATC clears you to descend via the STAR?

[NaFenn]

it worked in Adelaide, although it did make it harder to get an approach as a training aircraft initially (some of the more "practical" controllers retired rather than moved) - but i think that settled once the controllers got used to the environment.

[cloudsurfng]

"Lack of local knowledge and inexperience"... what, do they walk around the streets staring at the sky during their training or something?
A chart's a chart and a map's a map. What difference does it make...? I'm pretty sure Adelaide does okay, or, wait a hot second.. maybe a bunch of Adelaide born controllers should fire up a squad to control the local airspace, that would be way more efficient!

there is nothing ok about ATC into Adelaide.

[compressor stall]

It’s not until you fly overseas until you realise (in some places) how good ATC airspace design and control can be.

[Lead Balloon]

Bizarre. Only in a third world aviation nation...

[Roj approved]

Hmmmm, Australian ATC, 2nd best in the world😩

I signed it, not because I agree with the concept of “local knowledge”, which is kinda BS, but more because the “centralisation” of ATC to MEL has a far greater effect on already Covid effected staff, and there are better places to spend the airways charges, like on the “Airways”.

These lads and gals have been suffering since March 2020, and to now force move them to Melbourne is just another kick in the pants. Is this a way to trim the head count without having to pay redundancy? Sounds like it.

I’m not privy to the state of the equipment in SYD, it may be a case of a complete refresh of the consoles etc is required and this is a cheaper option, but there are other associated problems. NZ was found wanting after the Christchurch earthquake disrupted the ATC network, sure, we’ve got BNE too, so maybe that will cover all issues.

I’d like to see ASA adopting real world airspace design, that’s where they should be spending the money.
9000ft @ 20DME SYD, can f@#k right off, 🤬
6000ft on downwind while an aircraft climbs to 5000ft below you in SYD and MEL. 😩 then you drag your ass for another 20nm before turning base.

Go to BKK, SIN, HNL, SFO hell even DPS and HKT do better than SYD/MEL/BNE and they have real weather, terrain, traffic and language to deal with.

Put a tower in Ballina before a bunch of people die, redesign the airspace around Capital cities so I don’t have to try to stay in CTA on every descent, there is no GA traffic anyway, CASA killed that off, and with ADSB it should be easier to seperate them from use anyway.

Why when we fly in from Asia, spend 4+ hours in Aus ATC, then 200nm from SYD/MEL/BNE we have to lose 10 mins for our landing slot? 🤬🤬 you knew we were coming?😩😩

Anyway, good luck to the frontline guys and gals, hopefully management can see the light, but, I don’t hold out a lot of hope unfortunately.

[Lead Balloon]

The only third world aviation nation where you can drink the tap water...

[Alt Flieger]

Hi Roj.
Everything you say is correct.
Hate to tell you this but every issue you raise has been brought up with ASA over the last 20 years or more.
If you really want to be depressed find somebody in authority in ASA to talk to and find out why they do things the way they do.
Efficient aircraft operation does not rate as an issue , period.
ATC airspace design rules and ATC work rules trump everything.
And not spending money.
Clipping Control Area steps ? Cant fix that. Have to reprint all the charts. Cost too much. And Dick Smith might get upset.
Track to MEL , SYD at 6000’ on the Star ? Well , the VOR is the primary aid isn’t it ? ASA design rules say so.
QANTAS tailored RNP to CAT 1 minima ? Cant have that. Gotta have generic charts to minimise ATC work load. Cant handle too many options.
Bismarck said law making is like sausages. If you want to eat them dont watch them being made. ASA same same.

[foam]

The only third world aviation nation where you can drink the tap water...
Except in ADL... :P

[Roj approved]

Hi Roj.
Everything you say is correct.
Hate to tell you this but every issue you raise has been brought up with ASA over the last 20 years or more.
If you really want to be depressed find somebody in authority in ASA to talk to and find out why they do things the way they do.
Efficient aircraft operation does not rate as an issue , period.
ATC airspace design rules and ATC work rules trump everything.
And not spending money.
Clipping Control Area steps ? Cant fix that. Have to reprint all the charts. Cost too much. And Dick Smith might get upset.
Track to MEL , SYD at 6000’ on the Star ? Well , the VOR is the primary aid isn’t it ? ASA design rules say so.
QANTAS tailored RNP to CAT 1 minima ? Cant have that. Gotta have generic charts to minimise ATC work load. Cant handle too many options.
Bismarck said law making is like sausages. If you want to eat them dont watch them being made. ASA same same.

Hi Alt,

Yes I’ve been told this before, even had a briefing from ATC management once that tried to explain how flying 40 extra track miles got you to you destination quicker with a lower fuel burn 🤷‍♂️

I guess not having the star joining the approach in SYD minimises controller workload too?😩 Well it certainly increase my workload and stress levels.

I don’t think I’ll eat sausages again😂😂
Cheers
Roj

[Maggie Island]

If it makes it more appetising, there’s been a delicious amount of dct SOSIJ over the last year or so.

[morno]

Go to BKK, SIN, HNL, SFO hell even DPS and HKT do better than SYD/MEL/BNE and they have real weather, terrain, traffic and language to deal with

Are you sure you’ve flown into BKK? The plenty of times that I have, I’ve spent more time at 2,000ft 25 miles from the airport than almost everywhere else. And that’s after descending very slowly to try and avoid being so low!

[Roj approved]

If it makes it more appetising, there’s been a delicious amount of dct SOSIJ over the last year or so.

Hahaha, gold 👍

[deja vu]

The only third world aviation nation where you can drink the tap water...
Unless things have changed recently you can't drink the water in Adelaide.

But seriously, pretty much all service providers in the lucky country have the impression that we are there for them as opposed as being there for us plebs, ATC is only one of many.

[severidian]

Support the sizzle.....:ok:

[LapSap]

Unless things have changed recently you can't drink the water in Adelaide.

But seriously, pretty much all service providers in the lucky country have the impression that we are there for them as opposed as being there for us plebs, ATC is only one of many.

That last sentence pretty much sums up the problem.
Grandiose ideas while spending the minimum on the service and maximising management bonuses. Leads to a culture where many are contemptuous of the people they’re meant to be serving.
Their budget has obviously dried up in recent years but they used to love poncing around other ANSPs in the APAC, trying to sell their ‘best practice’.
Having worked for one of those serving a major international hub and been in the meetings, I can tell you the management were less than impressed with ASA’s cocky and presumptuous attitude. Hence they never got the contract. When you start a sentence with “But in Australia we do this….” to somebody handling over 110 scheduled international operators (confirming operators not movements obviously) it’s not going to end well.

[WhisprSYD]

Hmmmm, Australian ATC, 2nd best in the world😩

I signed it, not because I agree with the concept of “local knowledge”, which is kinda BS, but more because the “centralisation” of ATC to MEL has a far greater effect on already Covid effected staff, and there are better places to spend the airways charges, like on the “Airways”.

These lads and gals have been suffering since March 2020, and to now force move them to Melbourne is just another kick in the pants. Is this a way to trim the head count without having to pay redundancy? Sounds like it.

I’m not privy to the state of the equipment in SYD, it may be a case of a complete refresh of the consoles etc is required and this is a cheaper option, but there are other associated problems. NZ was found wanting after the Christchurch earthquake disrupted the ATC network, sure, we’ve got BNE too, so maybe that will cover all issues.

I’d like to see ASA adopting real world airspace design, that’s where they should be spending the money.
9000ft @ 20DME SYD, can f@#k right off, 🤬
6000ft on downwind while an aircraft climbs to 5000ft below you in SYD and MEL. 😩 then you drag your ass for another 20nm before turning base.

Go to BKK, SIN, HNL, SFO hell even DPS and HKT do better than SYD/MEL/BNE and they have real weather, terrain, traffic and language to deal with.

Put a tower in Ballina before a bunch of people die, redesign the airspace around Capital cities so I don’t have to try to stay in CTA on every descent, there is no GA traffic anyway, CASA killed that off, and with ADSB it should be easier to seperate them from use anyway.

Why when we fly in from Asia, spend 4+ hours in Aus ATC, then 200nm from SYD/MEL/BNE we have to lose 10 mins for our landing slot? 🤬🤬 you knew we were coming?😩😩

Anyway, good luck to the frontline guys and gals, hopefully management can see the light, but, I don’t hold out a lot of hope unfortunately.

A pretty good summation there. On the ‘local knowledge’ side though didn’t the BOM recently shut down their Sydney based forecasting unit in favour of consolidation to Melbourne?

I haven’t been out and about much, but any noticeable change to the accuracy?

[Maggie Island]

TAF AMDs being dished out like theyre going out of fashion:}

[neville_nobody]

But seriously, pretty much all service providers in the lucky country have the impression that we are there for them as opposed as being there for us plebs, ATC is only one of many.

Yes this is a major problem throughout the aviation industry. It's everywhere.

[Stickshift3000]

TAF AMDs being dished out like theyre going out of fashion:}

However would have thought that weather is unpredictable?! :confused: