RAF VC10 accident in October 1984

[kit344]

On 10 October 1984, an RAF VC10 suffered a major engine failure on takeoff from Decimomannu.
I am certain of the date because I was a passenger. The accident occurred 2 days before the Brighton hotel bombing.
I have searched numerous websites for the accident report, but it seems to be unavailable.
Can anyone help me with this please ?

[First_In_Last_Out]

What exactly are you hoping to achieve? An engine failure, major or otherwise (btw, I don't believe I have ever heard a passenger describe any mishap as anything other than "major") would not necessarily warrant an "accident" report (the clue is in the name). I would suggest your search for a report being "unavailable" is more likely to be non-existant I'm afraid. You may find somebody of that era in this forum who could help with your query however I'm sure I'm not the only one who would question your intentions.

[Old-Duffer]

Perhaps the incident was not classed as an accident and hence was treated as an engine failure - pure and simple.

Should this be the case there would be (possibly) an incident report but no accident report or investigation.
Old Duffer

[kit344]

One of the engines lost most of it's turbine and fan blades onto the runway, there was some damage to the adjacent engine, which was shut down in the air.
I was told that the co pilot attempted to stop after we had passed V1.

[kit344]

The passengers were all of the ground crew, and several aircrew, from 41 Jaguar Squadron.
I was an avionics technician at the time.
Several members of the ground crew, including myself were also experienced glider pilots, or private pilots.
I was informed that the co pilot had attempted to stop after V1 by a senior gliding instructor who was later the gliding CFI at Laarbruch.

[rolling20]

You need BEagle. The thread was 'who remembers Deci'. He posted on 29th Oct 2004: '.…...Engine failure on take off in the VC10 to return to Colt. 10 minutes of fuel dumping over Sardinia.'
If it wasn't him my apologies.

[NutLoose]

Might have been away on a course when it happened or off shift, we did have one suffer a similar fate on the detuner when we were running it, boy did it shake.

[BEagle]

Nothing to do with me - see https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/127633-who-remembers-deci-2.html?highlight=remembers+Deci

On the topic of detuners, I recall a bunch of idiots pushing a VC10K3 back into the pipes, having failed to NB that it was a 'Super' VC10 at heart and was rather longer than a VC10 C Mk 1 or VC10K2.....

[NutLoose]

Ours was snagged for slow to accelerate and after stabilising all the engines we proceeded to do slam checks at which point No 2 spat its dummy out along with the turbine IGV’s and a fair bit of the turbine, some speared and stuck in the detuners Colander, the rest went up and out like a mushroom cloud, the fire cover cpl sitting out front presented with his first real aircraft fire missed it lol, as we dumped the extinguisher into it and chopped the fuel.. the boss was worried of repercussions but I suggested what is better, us catching it on the detuner or it failing somewhere hot and high, full of pax on take off.

[rolling20]

Nothing to do with me - see https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/127633-who-remembers-deci-2.html?highlight=remembers+Deci

On the topic of detuners, I recall a bunch of idiots pushing a VC10K3 back into the pipes, having failed to NB that it was a 'Super' VC10 at heart and was rather longer than a VC10 C Mk 1 or VC10K2.....
Apologies Beags, I didn't have it in that format and can now see 'lowfield heath' was the poster.

[finalapproach]

One of the engines lost most of it's turbine and fan blades onto the runway, there was some damage to the adjacent engine, which was shut down in the air.
I was told that the co pilot attempted to stop after we had passed V1.
when you say the copilot "attempted to stop" after V1 did the aircraft stop on the runway or go off the end? Surely only in the latter case would it be classed as an accident.

[morton]

FILO What exactly are you hoping to achieve?
What is so suspicious for someone wanting to know a bit more in something they were part of? Wouldn't you (especially Aircraft ground crew who know something of Aircaft workings) want to know why an Aircraft had an RTO or you heard a big bang? I know I did but luckily mine was posted in 'Airclues'. It wasn't really my first flight - that was on an air experience flight in a Hastings trying to catch sight of the Oil Rigs that were starting to sprout in the North Sea. The VC10 flight was Vulcan ground crew going to Andrews AFB for a weeks holiday whilst one of the 9/12/35 Squadron Vulcans did displays.
p.s. Is the CCWR still called 'Cloud & Clunk' radar?
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1269x1731/vc10_9273150572a0fbcbadda22d80b7a622ee0fe2aa3.jpg

[esscee]

To best of my memory, RAF VC10's never had an accident as such, there have been a few incidents though as with many other aircraft types.

[212man]

It's not listed on his site, but this guy may be able to help: https://www.vc10.net/index.html

[superplum]

when you say the copilot "attempted to stop" after V1 did the aircraft stop on the runway or go off the end? Surely only in the latter case would it be classed as an accident.

I was on board. No, it didn't stop - see the comment about dumping fuel. It landed at Cagliari after dumping - Deci had closed by then (runway FOD - engine bits (34kg)) The Co Ppilot was relieved of his task, see a sooty colleague's comment:

"That’s where the Captain asked the ground eng (K---- A--------) to relieve the first officer from the controls. K---- obliged by thumping the co-pilot and knocking him out."

[SimonPaddo]

I was on board. No, it didn't stop - see the comment about dumping fuel. It landed at Cagliari after dumping - Deci had closed by then (runway FOD - engine bits (34kg)) The Co Ppilot was relieved of his task, see a sooty colleague's comment:

"That’s where the Captain asked the ground eng (K---- A--------) to relieve the first officer from the controls. K---- obliged by thumping the co-pilot and knocking him out."

early CRM RAF style?

[Jhieminga]

but this guy may be able to help:
Sorry, unable I'm afraid. I do not have any information about the engine failure at Deci other than what has been mentioned here or in the linked thread about Deci. I would be happy to add this particular incident to my website, but only if all the contributors here agree and if we can get the facts straightened out.

I can also add a bit about the XV108 thunderstorm damage based on the image posted by morton, if that is allright?

[morton]

I can also add a bit about the XV108 thunderstorm damage based on the image posted by morton, if that is allright?
Absolutely fine by me.
I see from your site that 108 got pinged only 13 days after entering service. An unwanted distinction but I bet it was a pleasure to work on - still clean and able to read cable and pipe markings etc.

[NutLoose]

108 today, they could have had the whole thing but it wouldn't fit on site.


https://www.cliffibell.co.uk/p40327548#he0fdf9a5

[Jhieminga]

Thank you morton! Much appreciated.

If the Aeropark at EMA would have taken on the whole thing, the tail would have been too high, and be too close to the active runway at East Midlands.

[tucumseh]

FILO What exactly are you hoping to achieve?
p.s. Is the CCWR still called 'Cloud & Clunk' radar?


Yes, it was. Not sure why you ask, but from the 80s-on there could be little expectation of consistent CCWR performance. The VC10 had a dual-transmitter fit of the Lo-Power variant, but like (e.g.) Hercules, suffered from a lack of assets, so quite possibly a service mod was issued to allow a hybrid, with the Hi-Power transmitter. But that needed complementary mods elsewhere, which were seldom if ever embodied. Such as, different circuit breakers and anti-vibration mounts.

The other main issue was thermal. There was a mod to upgrade from Germanium to Silicon, but MoD decided to embody it in slow time, over a period of many years. Decades even. The latter allowed a different and less stringent cooling convention, but a Germanium LRU fitted to a 'Silicon' aircaft would inevitably fail. You'd get No Fault Found on the bench, and it would fail again when fitted. Similar problems at Culdrose on the Radar Procedures Ground Trainer, with 9 Control Indicators causing a lot of noise, and cooling fans were removed. You had to demand by mod strike off number, which was ok until 1985 after which the RN did not control its own assets. In January 1988, AMSO (RAF) ordered the destruction of all component spares. Then replaced them. Then scrapped them again. Then.....

It is because of this I have sympathy with the VSO who was visiting Emerson in the US, looked at their nice colour Weather Radar (the whole thing cost about half a CCWR Transmitter) and said 'I want that'. Emerson launched production. The VSO was quietly told by DG Contracts that he had inadvertently committed MoD to a contract, which was quietly cancelled.

[NutLoose]

Thank you morton! Much appreciated.

If the Aeropark at EMA would have taken on the whole thing, the tail would have been too high, and be too close to the active runway at East Midlands.

and the other way around it would have overhung the boundary.

[morton]

Ref Cloud & Clunk Weather Radar (CCWR)

Yes, it was. Not sure why you ask

No particular reason tucumseh, just a flash back in time and thinking, with a tenuous connection, of the V-Bomber electronic suite curious names thread.
A thorough and comprehensive reply on your part as usual.
p.s. my 100th post. Do I get a Gold Star or some sort of laudatory award now?

[Jhieminga]

An honorary mention on my site will have to do I'm afraid. We're out of medals.
https://www.vc10.net/History/incidents_and_accidents.html#BrizeThunder

[NutLoose]

Ref Cloud & Clunk Weather Radar (CCWR)

Commonly known as the yellatelly

[Herod]

"That’s where the Captain asked the ground eng (K---- A--------) to relieve the first officer from the controls. K---- obliged by thumping the co-pilot and knocking him out."

Assuming this to be true, one hopes the Grd Eng was commissioned, and senior to the co-pilot. Otherwise cats and pigeons come to mind.

[langleybaston]

Assuming this to be true, one hopes the Grd Eng was commissioned, and senior to the co-pilot. Otherwise cats and pigeons come to mind.

Depends on "asked" or "ordered". Under the circumstances, I would expect "ordered".

We next move to the question of legality of the order. I reckon it would pass that test.

And the outcome seems to have been beneficial.

Case dismissed.

[Herod]

Seems unusual though, unless the co was throwing a wobbly in the RHS. Usually a firm "I have control" should be enough.

[vascodegama]

There are plenty of examples of CM where the perp/victim combo has been senior to junior and vice versa etc. LB legal order-I wouldn't ask you to defend at CM !

I am more curious as to how the co-pilot attempted to stop since even when he was the op pilot he did still not have his hands on the throttles during take off.

[NutLoose]

Anyone remember the VC10 practice display when OC Ops? missed the centreline and we watched as shockwaves formed over the wings and he trailed vapour as he attempted to heave it back onto the line... when it landed they refused to say how much over G it pulled but said it had pulled "some" and tried to keep it quiet, the meter in the cockpit having been reset. That left the only option open to us to do a full over G check on it, that took longer than a day so when the Aircraft availability stats went in it was listed as over G checks.. needless to say that got some attention in places up the line.

[sangiovese.]

I flew the aircraft for 13 years and never heard of this incident. Plenty of engine failures (and the occasional fight) but not this out of Deci

[Tengah Type]

I flew the mighty beast for four tours, and was flying in a pretty Hemp coloured aircraft from the south side of the airfield on the date mentioned.
Not disputing any facts about the engine failure ( rare as it was ). If the co-pilot had acted as alleged i'm pretty sure we would have been given
a Flight Safety brief about it, or at least heard the scuttlebutt about 'X' being given an E Cat.

Anyway in my experience on 10 Sqn the Ground Engineer would not usually be on the flight deck but down the back enjoying a well earned cold
or hot drink and a plate of something rustled up by the Loadie. The Air Engineer, who would have hold of the throttles, would have prevented the
Co from further hazarding the aircraft, together with the Loud Shout of 'NO' from the Captain and Nav. The Air Engineer also had control of the
'Co-Pilot Control Tool' ( AKA Crash Axe ) stowed in his desk drawer!

[Herod]

Tengah Type. Agree totally. I never flew the 10, but from C-130 experience, this just wouldn't happen. As for having to be knocked out, he would certainly be grounded for mental assessment.

[sangiovese.]

I forgot the Eng used to lock his (and her!) wrist behind their Throttles So you couldn’t move them anyway

[Tengah Type]

Herod & Sangiovese

Is it still allowed on PPrune for three people/persons/entities to agree on something? Seems quite rare these days!

[farefield]

Herod & Sangiovese

Is it still allowed on PPrune for three people/persons/entities to agree on something? Seems quite rare these days!

No it isn't.

[NutLoose]

No it isn't.


I disagree...

[Jetset 88]

At the risk of coming late into this thread I can confirm that anything that occurred at Deci on 10 Oct 84 was definitely not an accident.
It may have suffered an engine failure but that would be reported in an Incident Report, unless the aircraft crashed or didn't land on a tarmac runway in one piece, which obviously wasn't the case.
I flew in the LHS to Nairobi, via Palermo the next day 11th October in a 10 Sqn aircraft and was route checked by gentleman Sqn Ldr Gwill Price from 241 OCU. I'm 100% certain that he would have mentioned any Deci 'accident' the day before.
We landed after the 11/12th overnight flight and I recall walking into the Intercont Hotel at NBO at about 0900 local on 12th October to hear the news about the Brighton Hotel Bombing whilst waiting in Reception for our room keys. Mrs T was a frequent pax on the 10 during that time so we were all quite shocked.
But no mention later back at BZZ of an accident at Deci. Sorry - Duff Gen.