Russian Sonar Buoys off Ireland

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/pinstripedline/status/1443174545997901827?s=21

[MATELO]

Its surprising you cant walk from Ireland to Iceland on them, the amount out there.

[cliver029]

Did anyone watch Chan V series about HMS Trenchant, that was an eye opener

C

[falcon900]

I am watching the HMS Trenchant series. Having scoffed at the BBC farce "Vigil" I am having to eat my words, truth it would appear is stranger than fiction after all! The Russians dont seem to need to infiltrate the crew to cause the boat to surface / return to port.
In the course of the first two episodes, they have had to surface to offload a sailor with a blistered hand, lost half of the refrigeration capacity within 4 days of leaving port, had an engine room fire necessitating a return to port, lost the use of all heads, and had a failure of the air scrubbers necessitating the entire crew breathing emergency air. One can only hope that the reactor and the weapons are more reliable.........
The apparently appalling reliability of the boat is so bad that I find myself asking whether this is a set up by the Navy to garner public sympathy and support for greater investment. The Vigil producers would have discarded this script as being way too far fetched.

[brakedwell]

I remember a similar incident when I was on the Coastal Command Com Flt in the very early sixties. We were flying to Scotland daily due to a big Nato Naval Exercise up there when a Shackleton dropped one of the latest Sonar Beacons to monitor under water traffic. Shortly after the drop, a Russian Submarine surfaced, collected the floating Beacon, and then submerged.

[rattman]

I am watching the HMS Trenchant series. Having scoffed at the BBC farce "Vigil" I am having to eat my words, truth it would appear is stranger than fiction after all! The Russians dont seem to need to infiltrate the crew to cause the boat to surface / return to port.
In the course of the first two episodes, they have had to surface to offload a sailor with a blistered hand, lost half of the refrigeration capacity within 4 days of leaving port, had an engine room fire necessitating a return to port, lost the use of all heads, and had a failure of the air scrubbers necessitating the entire crew breathing emergency air. One can only hope that the reactor and the weapons are more reliable.........
The apparently appalling reliability of the boat is so bad that I find myself asking whether this is a set up by the Navy to garner public sympathy and support for greater investment. The Vigil producers would have discarded this script as being way too far fetched.

Wonder what happened to the captain between first and second show. Either they spent a long time in port to fix the engine or a he was removed. Also I use this series as an example of why australia would be stupid to take these as interim boats for the possible incoming SSN's

[Uplinker]

In a recent series of adverts for Royal Navy recruits this year, the ship featured had a rotating spiky spherical radome which clearly was misshapen and irregular, and the windscreen wipers juddered as they crossed the screens.

I did wonder about the quality of 'modern' ship construction when I noticed this - unless of course it was a studio model and not the real thing?

[goofer3]

In a recent series of adverts for Royal Navy recruits this year, the ship featured had a rotating spiky spherical radome which clearly was misshapen and irregular.
Not really up to date with modern RN radar but using it in the 60's the wave guide was directly in front of the antennas, resulting in a ground wave. They then introduced types such as the Type 993 quarter cheese which offset the wave guide.
Edit to add: Being a quarter cheese shape and slightly tilted it certainly looked misshappen as it rotated.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x316/radar_type_993_2a6k_ec144a96777b1289985bf6d04699c9cff44916ef .jpg


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x158/993_600_fe37c4b89107462eaa84b6dc081a2ec6cbfb22c0.jpg

The type that you mention is ;
"The distinctive SAMPSON antenna is mounted in a single carbon-fibre composite frame which holds two hexagonal back-to-back planar arrays. Two semi-circular radomes cover the arrays to complete the ball shape which is about 4.8 meters in diameter. At first glance, antenna appears spherical but when seen rotating it is obvious that it is not symmetrical in all axis and tapers at the sides. Mounted on circular, highly durable race and roller bearing designed to cope with temperature extremes, the antenna is rotated at 30rpm. The 4 “whiskers” protruding from its surface are designed to conduct lightning strikes away from the sensitive array."

[MATELO]

Wonder what happened to the captain between first and second show. Either they spent a long time in port to fix the engine or a he was removed. Also I use this series as an example of why australia would be stupid to take these as interim boats for the possible incoming SSN's

Cant imagine an engine room fire would be an overnighter to fix. Probably had to wait 4 months for the correct paperwork, spare parts to be removed/stolen from another boat and then lost in transit.

[ORAC]

The apparently appalling reliability of the boat is so bad that I find myself asking whether this is a set up by the Navy to garner public sympathy and support for greater investment.
Laid down in 1983, now over 37 years old and filmed in her last cruise prior to decommissioning (which is probably the reason they got permission to film on board.)

I can imagine the RN weren’t prepared to spend much on her except for essential repairs and parts. If a sub has the equivalent of a MEL I’m assuming it had flags and stickers all over it for the last trip….

[Mr N Nimrod]

Wonder what happened to the captain between first and second show. Either they spent a long time in port to fix the engine or a he was removed. Also I use this series as an example of why australia would be stupid to take these as interim boats for the possible incoming SSN's

I think Trenchant was the boat that had the crew bbq on the casing while alongside. Early in the pandemic, made all the papers.

Captain was replaced because of that.

[ORAC]

Indeed,

https://news.sky.com/story/hms-trenchant-nuclear-submarine-commander-investigated-after-holding-bbq-for-crew-during-lockdown-11977900

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-submarine-commander-loses-job-after-bbq-party-during-lockdown-11980236

[Just This Once...]

I can imagine the RN weren’t prepared to spend much on her….

IF it has been deliberately allowed to decay but deployed anyway to play SSBN acoustic chess then senior heads would need to roll. It may not be a boomer but it still has a kettle and a bunch of people on board.

Regarding the 'managed risk' - at a grand-strategic level the sudden unexplained loss of an attack boat whilst actively protecting a boomer's passage through home waters, with Russian attack boats in the vicinity, could be the prelude to a disaster. Loss of a single boat may not be the top-level risk.

As an aside, the series so far left many questions from those of us more familiar with aviation. If a boat has 2 of something essential you would presume the second is there for redundancy. When it came to the 2 scrubbers it appeared that the failure of one was enough to deny the crew a breathable atmosphere. Sounds odd to me.

[Stu666]

One washed up on a beach in Cornwall last year I believe.

[Ninthace]

One washed up on a beach in Cornwall last year I believe.
What!!!!!!?? A whole nuclear submarine - they kept that quiet!

[pasta]

What!!!!!!?? A whole nuclear submarine - they kept that quiet!
It was on TV! They used the footage for a Weetabix ad...

[Just This Once...]

What!!!!!!?? A whole nuclear submarine - they kept that quiet!

Pretty sure it was Scotland they hit recently in an Astute sub - forgot to turn and drove straight into it. The report didn't stay quiet either! :eek:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/27118/astute_grounding_si_report.pdf

Given the level of stupidity in the incident it is hard to pick a favourite part but letting the sub drift after finally pulling it free and having an expensive collision with the coastguard 'rescue' tug has to be on the shortlist.

[rattman]

Thanks orac and nimrod, assumed something had happened for him to be removed.

The series is probably a little dramatised, like the toilet thing, if you look at the 2 guys putting the chemicals in to clean the pipes, they look to be dock workers, hardhats with high vis safety vests with a companies name on it and yet the doco is saying the sub is out to sea

[ninja-lewis]

Thanks orac and nimrod, assumed something had happened for him to be removed.

The series is probably a little dramatised, like the toilet thing, if you look at the 2 guys putting the chemicals in to clean the pipes, they look to be dock workers, hardhats with high vis safety vests with a companies name on it and yet the doco is saying the sub is out to sea To be clear, neither of the captains featured in the documentary were the captain who was removed because of the barbecue. The first one became Head of Royal Navy Submarine School in 2019.

[Video Mixdown]

Thanks orac and nimrod, assumed something had happened for him to be removed.

The series is probably a little dramatised........
Agreed. I suspect even the 'Russians' segment was either an exercise or set up just for the cameras.

[rattman]

Agreed. I suspect even the 'Russians' segment was either an exercise or set up just for the cameras.

I thought they said at the end the of the episode it was a training execise

[dead_pan]

I worked with a guy who had been in the submarine service who recounted a story about when they were shadowing a Russian sub from its baffles. Apparently they misjudged its speed and tailgated it - he said the whole crew thought they were a goner (probably the Russians too).

[anson harris]

Pretty sure it was Scotland they hit recently in an Astute sub

I'm not sure I'd describe 2011 as "recently", unless you mean geologically.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

I am watching the HMS Trenchant series. Having scoffed at the BBC farce "Vigil" I am having to eat my words, truth it would appear is stranger than fiction after all! The Russians dont seem to need to infiltrate the crew to cause the boat to surface / return to port.
In the course of the first two episodes, they have had to surface to offload a sailor with a blistered hand, lost half of the refrigeration capacity within 4 days of leaving port, had an engine room fire necessitating a return to port, lost the use of all heads, and had a failure of the air scrubbers necessitating the entire crew breathing emergency air. One can only hope that the reactor and the weapons are more reliable.........
The apparently appalling reliability of the boat is so bad that I find myself asking whether this is a set up by the Navy to garner public sympathy and support for greater investment. The Vigil producers would have discarded this script as being way too far fetched.

Not yet watched it myself - but I thought that it was filmed during a period of sea training? The FOSTies have never had an aversion to the dictum of 'train hard - fight easy'. Do you watch crime dramas and tell the Police who the murderer was - or do you wait for the end credits?

[admiral ackbar]

Not yet watched it myself - but I thought that it was filmed during a period of sea training? The FOSTies have never had an aversion to the dictum of 'train hard - fight easy'. Do you watch crime dramas and tell the Police who the murderer was - or do you wait for the end credits?

Didn't HMS Turbulent have a catastrophic cooling systems failure after being the subject of a documentary? Even during the documentary there were all kinds of issues with the boat, perhaps it is a curse to be on TV! Or these boats are getting a little long in the tooth

[Chrisbowe82]

Didn't HMS Turbulent have a catastrophic cooling systems failure after being the subject of a documentary? Even during the documentary there were all kinds of issues with the boat, perhaps it is a curse to be on TV! Or these boats are getting a little long in the tooth
I think we have to put things into perspective. You've got a 30+ year old nuclear power station crammed into a 100m tube, submerged, under pressure, that has to operate from tropical to arctic conditions for months and keep 130 people alive inside it...and it's also loaded with a few tonnes of explosives and in the case of my last boat, has to be able to put missiles into space, from under water. So yeah, there's defects. It's hard to explain just how much stuff is crammed into that tube. A boat can have a thousand defects and still be able to fight. I don't think I'm giving too much away by saying other nations operating boats the age of ours have the same defects.

[falcon900]

Not yet watched it myself - but I thought that it was filmed during a period of sea training? The FOSTies have never had an aversion to the dictum of 'train hard - fight easy'. Do you watch crime dramas and tell the Police who the murderer was - or do you wait for the end credits?
It is most assuredly not pitched as being a training exercise.
Do you comment on programmes without even seeing the opening credits, oh, sorry, you have already answered that...

[falcon900]

I think we have to put things into perspective. You've got a 30+ year old nuclear power station crammed into a 100m tube, submerged, under pressure, that has to operate from tropical to arctic conditions for months and keep 130 people alive inside it...and it's also loaded with a few tonnes of explosives and in the case of my last boat, has to be able to put missiles into space, from under water. So yeah, there's defects. It's hard to explain just how much stuff is crammed into that tube. A boat can have a thousand defects and still be able to fight. I don't think I'm giving too much away by saying other nations operating boats the age of ours have the same defects.

Have you watched the programme?
The defects in question are not minor, and indeed one of them encroached on their ability to keep the crew alive. The fact that other nations are at least as bad seems like rather cold comfort.
All of the previous "docudramas" I have watched which have been filmed with The Navy's cooperation have ended up seemed like quite good adverts for the service / service life. Im afraid that so far this series has looked more like a Brian Rix production, or a premature start of this years pantomime season.

[Chrisbowe82]

Have you watched the programme?
The defects in question are not minor, and indeed one of them encroached on their ability to keep the crew alive. The fact that other nations are at least as bad seems like rather cold comfort.
All of the previous "docudramas" I have watched which have been filmed with The Navy's cooperation have ended up seemed like quite good adverts for the service / service life. Im afraid that so far this series has looked more like a Brian Rix production, or a premature start of this years pantomime season.
Yes, I watched it. I also served on Vanguard, Vigilant and Vengeance and left in 2019 so I've seen my fair share of defects, including the atmosphere being 'out of spec'. It's what happens on submarines. You deal with it.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

I did watch both episodes last night.

1. Burnt hand - it happens. I am not sure why the guy needed evacuation, but communicating with the frigate and the boat transfer were useful training.

2. Refrigeration leak - it seemed odd that they captured the gas in a plastic bag.

3. Fire in engine room - seemed odd, no signs of water or foam being used. There were guys in white overalls with clipboards, which made me wonder If it was a training exercise.

4. Problem with air scrubbers - another training serial? After it was fixed the atmosphere was back to normal very quickly and EBS sets removed.

5. Coordinated operations working with HMS Sutherland - quite a big thing, either in British waters working with the Fleet Ready Escort and/or Towed Array Patrol Ship (and her helicopter, or possibly Maritime Patrol Aircraft), or as part of a deployed task group.

[Union Jack]

It is most assuredly not pitched as being a training exercise.
Do you comment on programmes without even seeing the opening credits, oh, sorry, you have already answered that...

Just as well that your moniker is presumably aviation based rather than on a very special code used by the USN!

Jack

[WE Branch Fanatic]

No reply falcon900? I watched both episodes of the programme and commented on your points.