Are we losing interest ? What's happening ?

[mcoates]

Greetings, as a regular visitor to this forum over many, many years I am noticing a real decline in what is available for me to read.

Every morning without hesitation, I log online and look at a couple of forums that I have an interest in and try to keep up-to-date with all things aviation.

Is it just me or is there a real decline in the people using these forums and therefore the amount of information we are sharing ?

To me, it looks like everybody is just losing interest, have got too old and are not flying or they have changed to other interests and hobbies.

Hopefully I am wrong and it is just a "slow period" in the life of the forum but what do others think ? Should I be looking at other avenues to feed my obsessions.

[Mach E Avelli]

Maybe pilots are finally getting a life?

[Squawk7700]

Facebook is the death of forums.

Bush Flyers Down under for one example, has over 13,000 members.

GA pilots has 7,000 members.

Functionality is the key, for example if I like what you’ve written and want to show that I agree with it, here I have to respond to the post, whereas on Facebook I can simply like it.

Plus, the Facebook groups are run by people who are passionate about aviation, not just a company that makes money from advertising.

There’s also another forum out there that has gone from thousands of members to just a handful of peanuts posting a few times a week. The only reason why that one survives is because Facebook allows all users to report bad behaviour easily, so the power-hungry types are soon outed and blocked, so they go elsewhere to spread their hidden agendas.

Video killed the radio star.

[Xeptu]

That's because we have been Gagged or Banned, I'm not allowed in the Airline Forum after 32 years a member and much longer a pilot, apparently because I talked about Covid too much, which is what the relevant threads are about and the discussion continues on. You work out for yourself what is happening.

P.S also it hasn't gone un-noticed that if you post anything with even the slightest bit of anti Qantas in it, you can expect a much higher level of scrutiny.

[machtuk]

That's because we have been Gagged or Banned, I'm not allowed in the Airline Forum after 32 years a member and much longer a pilot, apparently because I talked about Covid too much, which is what the relevant threads are about and the discussion continues on. You work out for yourself what is happening.

There's some weird control sh1t going on behind the scenes of Proon! Be interesting to know who/what has got to them!

[Pinky the pilot]

Facebook is the death of forums.

Doesn't surprise me in the slightest. But I still refuse to ever have anything to do with that place!

[Grumpy retiree]

Greetings, as a regular visitor to this forum over many, many years I am noticing a real decline in what is available for me to read.

Every morning without hesitation, I log online and look at a couple of forums that I have an interest in and try to keep up-to-date with all things aviation.

Is it just me or is there a real decline in the people using these forums and therefore the amount of information we are sharing ?

To me, it looks like everybody is just losing interest, have got too old and are not flying or they have changed to other interests and hobbies.

Hopefully I am wrong and it is just a "slow period" in the life of the forum but what do others think ? Should I be looking at other avenues to feed my obsessions.

Your observation is almost certainly correct.
Once upon a time you could be reasonably confident that your interlocutor was , in fact , an aviator , or at least had some connection with the industry. Some highly competent and well informed individuals have contributed over the years. Tdracer comes to mind.
Now the site is a forum for know-nothings , wannabes and people with a generalised grievance towards life the universe and everything.
The thread on “QF mandates Vaccine “ comes to mind.
This is no longer a Professional Pilot forum in any meaningful sense.

[Lookleft]

It could also have something to do with the fact that there is not much aviation taking place. There are not many accidents or incidents to speculate on and no significant aviation events taking place. Jet Blast is always good for a laugh and Military Aviation always has something going on so there is still a bit happening.

[Possum1]

It could also have something to do with the fact that there is not much aviation taking place.

True, but here in sunny Queensland at the benign end of the southern weather systems and COVID restrictions, my wife and I flew a half hour flight this morning from Archerfield to The Kooralbyn Resort for an excellent buffet breakfast in silky smooth conditions over interesting scenery - just a little smoky, that's all. On the way, we saw 5 hot-air balloons in the valley to the west of Beaudesert, presumably all with paying passengers on board.

Yesterday, the Straddie Fly-in Breakfast had a large turnout of 40+ planes looking at webtrak and most of them from Southport. So flying is happening in some places.

My point is that here, I feel I can offer facts if I know them and the audience will comprehend them. On facebook such facts are ignored because of a mostly overwhelmingly ignorant and uncomprehending audience who require that I only make vacuous opinions in short sentences of overweening positivity.

[PoppaJo]

Here you can let loose without getting the sack. I’ve seen too many get way too emotional on facey or the insta, resulting in afternoon tea with the human waste dept.

[Dick Smith]

I think it is a reflection of the failed state of aviation in Australia- especially GA.

With the CASA rule re write adding to complexity and cost this result is bound to happen.

We could be world leaders- but for that you need people with vision and get up and go.

As I have said before- I despair for future generations!

[Stuart Sutcliffe]

Is it just me or is there a real decline in the people using these forums and therefore the amount of information we are sharing ?
Perhaps they have been driven away, in despair, by the inability of people to know the difference between 'hangar', for your aircraft, or 'hanger', for your jacket.

The rather common misuse of 'loose', as in your engine may fall off, when the word should actually be 'lose', meaning your engine has already fallen off, probably adds to the despair!

😂

[Xeptu]

I too despair for future generations and not just for aviation. I'm glad to be in the last chapter and not the first. I'm not a conspiracy theorist but how did my generation get from no nuclear in Australia ever, to building nuclear powered submarines, without public consultation. I wonder if the town of Kimba knew that when they agreed to become a nuclear waste dump,
Wait What!!!... what on earth are we letting our bureaucracy get away with.

[Cravenmorehead]

Let's face it this site is boring and full of key board warriors

[john_tullamarine]

Sure the Covid thing has changed the nature of our worries but, at the end of the day, the site can only be the sum of the efforts put in by the membership, I suggest ?

[DogTailRed2]

Facebook is the death of forums.
Yes but sadly not for the better. You get a better conversation on a forum like prune. On facebook you get everyone from learned poster to troll.
I prefer this type of forum but they will die out.

[Peter Fanelli]

The rather common misuse of 'loose', as in your engine may fall off, when the word should actually be 'lose', meaning your engine has already fallen off, probably adds to the despair!

😂

If your engine has already fallen off it is not lose, it is lost.
Lose would be used by someone enquiring as to whether your engine was lost.

Maybe people just need to loosen up.

:)

[Squawk7700]

Maybe it's because Sunfish has left.

He's copied and posted this thread over here:

Are We Losing Interest? - AUS/NZ General Discussion - Recreational Flying (https://www.recreationalflying.com/topic/37786-are-we-losing-interest/?tab=comments#comment-515830)

[pineteam]

That's because we have been Gagged or Banned, I'm not allowed in the Airline Forum after 32 years a member and much longer a pilot, apparently because I talked about Covid too much, which is what the relevant threads are about and the discussion continues on. You work out for yourself what is happening.

P.S also it hasn't gone un-noticed that if you post anything with even the slightest bit of anti Qantas in it, you can expect a much higher level of scrutiny.

Same here, I have been zeroed last year without any warning or explanation. “ I was annoying” they say.. xD No empathy or care at all towards the members.. Shame.
Also you can barely say something without someone attacking you or criticizing you. Lots of snowflakes and closed minded people.. A bit of a turn off for me.
I’m now pretty much only active on the technical forum as some nice fellows members are always there to answer my queries.

[cattletruck]

The forum's layout style and features are quite old school compared to what's trending and doesn't really appeal to the new generation (although I prefer it because I'm slow). Also, if you post an epic post then the young really can't be arsed hence the term they invented - TLDR (Too Long Didn't Read).

With all the social media competition out there I don't think this forum will ever grab the attention of newcomers like days of old. I think it's become a bit like a retirement village - full of nostalgia, free expert advice, opinions on everything, and repetitive proof that age and treachery beat youth and enthusiasm all the time.

[340drvr]

Doesn't surprise me in the slightest. But I still refuse to ever have anything to do with that place!

Hear, hear!
Facebook, just say no!

[Pinky the pilot]

The rather common misuse of 'loose',

I was waiting to see if anyone would pick up on that.:hmm:

[over_centre]

Bring back Slasher - problem solved.

[jetjockey696]

Just look what happen to people who talked about a middle eastern carrier (we dare not speak its name!!) they got hunted down. The carrier (we dare not speak its name) sent out its lawyers to hunt down the perpetrator.. lawsuits and lynched. I will be next after posting this...

[Xeptu]

Same here, I have been zeroed last year without any warning or explanation. “ I was annoying” they say.. xD No empathy or care at all towards the members.. Shame.
Also you can barely say something without someone attacking you or criticizing you. Lots of snowflakes and closed minded people.. A bit of a turn off for me.
I’m now pretty much only active on the technical forum as some nice fellows members are always there to answer my queries.

That's how it's being done, silence every single dissenter, it doesn't matter what the issue is. If there isn't 10,000 people on the steps of parliament house and capital cities in the next week or so, protesting the governments ambition to establish a nuclear industry right here in Australia when we have made it quite clear "No Nuclear Power in Australia" Then it would be clear something has happened to our voice.

[PilotLZ]

I was waiting to see if anyone would pick up on that.:hmm:
Just as the old joke goes: "I was going through a pile of pilot CVs and every other one listed "duel time". Apparently some candidates had lots of blood on their hands!"

[pulse1]

I agree with the OP's observation and have been wondering about it. I think part of it is that, over the years, everything has been said about almost everything. For example, I followed the Covid thread closely to start with but now I hardly look at it. I have now identified those who have opinions I respect and I will have a quick look at what they say. If that looks interesting, I might then look at the surrounding posts. I think that there used to be a lot more posters who offered informed opinions or were able to catch one's attention with amusing comments or anecdotes. Basically, there are fewer real characters left to amuse or inform us.

[TheFrenchConnection]

I / we love this forum , been using it, ~ 15 years , fantastic unique " PROFESSIONAL " stuff on here , LONG may it continue... Absolutely brilliant ; thank you :ok::D
TFC.

[5000 metres]

One reason I visit here daily and only much more sparingly at FB is that here, despite the effort required to sort the signal from the noise, and notwithstanding all the “I wish we had a like button!” comments over the years, we have no like button here.

To paraphrase Balzac, the boiling down of all the infinitely multifarious shades of approval to a single simple gesture, i.e. the like, is the death of nuanced discourse.

[Senior Pilot]

Same here, I have been zeroed last year without any warning or explanation. “ I was annoying” they say.. xD No empathy or care at all towards the members.. Shame.
Also you can barely say something without someone attacking you or criticizing you. Lots of snowflakes and closed minded people.. A bit of a turn off for me.
I’m now pretty much only active on the technical forum as some nice fellows members are always there to answer my queries.

I’ve restored your post count 👍.

Unfortunately the IB system doesn’t always automatically apply old post numbers when you come out of purgatory, but a reminder to one of us can short circuit Waiting for Godot 🙊

[Capn Rex Havoc]

mcoates - Are you able to edit the thread title? It is "losing" not "loosing".

[pineteam]

I’ve restored your post count 👍.

Unfortunately the IB system doesn’t always automatically apply old post numbers when you come out of purgatory, but a reminder to one of us can short circuit Waiting for Godot 🙊

Thank you Sir!:ok:

[john_tullamarine]

Are you able to edit the thread title? It is "losing" not "loosing".

Getting slack in my dotage - didn't even see that error in the title. Fixed for you, now.

[Grumpy retiree]

I’ve restored your post count 👍.

Unfortunately the IB system doesn’t always automatically apply old post numbers when you come out of purgatory, but a reminder to one of us can short circuit Waiting for Godot 🙊

Maybe I’m missing something but how do you send a reminder if you’ve been blocked ?

[Senior Pilot]

Maybe I’m missing something but how do you send a reminder if you’ve been blocked ?

Usually via PM or Contact Us 🛰

[Luke SkyToddler]

The amount of interest the current owners have in this website, is demonstrated by the fact they haven't even updated the forum descriptions for over a decade, including the private forums for airlines that rebranded or went bust many years ago (BMI, Thomson, Monarch etc). It died when Danny sold it. Was still occasionally useful for interview gen but even that's going to be all hopelessly out of date when hiring resumes. Everyone's long ago moved to Facebook as previously stated.

Don't be sad that it's gone, be happy that it existed and it was so good for such a long time.

[27/09]

+1 for a like button. That's pretty standard on a lot of forums these days.

[Flyer517]

Personally I find the speed with which personal attacks or petty arguments happen on a lot of threads vey depressing. Within the blink of an eye, what I hoped would be a good aviation related conversation, descends in to a childish argument or slanging match. For that reason I often think better of participating.

Strangely (given we like to think we're laid back), this appears to be a lot worse on the Aus forums than elsewhere on Prune.

[Street garbage]

Personally I find the speed with which personal attacks or petty arguments happen on a lot of threads vey depressing. Within the blink of an eye, what I hoped would be a good aviation related conversation, descends in to a childish argument or slanging match. For that reason I often think better of participating.

Strangely (given we like to think we're laid back), this appears to be a lot worse on the Aus forums than elsewhere on Prune.

Yep, I agree, we no longer have a Forum where both sides can a rational discussion about aviation- it quickly spirals into viscous name calling with people being called "bigot/ racist etc etc", or else people who have zero aviation experience-eg Telfer 86 offer the vast knowledge (none) on IR etc.
People are losing interest, and if "Engagement"- however Management defines that- is an indicator, it won't be coming back anytime soon, not with the damage done in the last 18 months (28% pay increase for management whilst crew are on Government handouts?? Sure, that's fine).

[Pinky the pilot]

Personally I find the speed with which personal attacks or petty arguments happen on a lot of threads vey depressing. Within the blink of an eye, what I hoped would be a good aviation related conversation, descends in to a childish argument or slanging match. For that reason I often think better of participating.

Strangely (given we like to think we're laid back), this appears to be a lot worse on the Aus forums than elsewhere on Prune.


Concur. On a thread elsewhere on this site I remonstrated with a couple of individuals who had descended into personal abuse and was basically told to get back in my box; Who was I to say that personal abuse was not acceptable etc etc.

we no longer have a Forum where both sides can a rational discussion about aviation- it quickly spirals into vicious name calling with people being called "bigot/ racist etc etc", or else people who have zero aviation experience-

Unfortunately it has been like this for quite some time now. And sadly, I think it won't improve either.

[cattletruck]

All internet forums are not immune from those on the end of the spectrum who just can't control their emotions and resort to unsavoury methods to make their point.

We had an incredible one on our local community page on FB. Essentially, someone wanted to restrict the major road between his house and his workplace to bicycles only without any consideration to other residents that live on this road. His one-man campaign was incredible, threatening legal action when challenged, and even scared council enough to conduct a study. He's still at it years later.

[finestkind]

Greetings, as a regular visitor to this forum over many, many years I am noticing a real decline in what is available for me to read.

Every morning without hesitation, I log online and look at a couple of forums that I have an interest in and try to keep up-to-date with all things aviation.

Is it just me or is there a real decline in the people using these forums and therefore the amount of information we are sharing ?

To me, it looks like everybody is just losing interest, have got too old and are not flying or they have changed to other interests and hobbies.

Hopefully I am wrong and it is just a "slow period" in the life of the forum but what do others think ? Should I be looking at other avenues to feed my obsessions.

Yes and as already pointed out posts generally denigrate into personal slanging matches.

[VH-FTS]

As mentioned above, Facebook groups are more relevant and accessible than Pprune, which hasn’t adapted with the times. The newer generations don’t get involved in this site anymore because it’s full of dinosaurs with old school views. A lot of opinions on pprune have always been trash, but now they are out dated too. Plus every thread seems to end up being an argument about COVID. You’ll all probably disagree, but you’re also the sort of pilots memes on Instagram are correctly making fun of.

[mcoates]

Where are these other Facebook type sites ?

[Xeptu]

As mentioned above, Facebook groups are more relevant and accessible than Pprune, which hasn’t adapted with the times. The newer generations don’t get involved in this site anymore because it’s full of dinosaurs with old school views. A lot of opinions on pprune have always been trash, but now they are out dated too. Plus every thread seems to end up being an argument about COVID. You’ll all probably disagree, but you’re also the sort of pilots memes on Instagram are correctly making fun of.

Really!!! well last time I checked the same Aircraft in the same Companies are still operating today, the same ones I flew 10 years ago, so do share this new school learning you speak of, I'm beside myself in anticipation.

P.S I've been hearing about this new school learning for about 40 years. I've always prided myself in keeping up, including HTML5 all the why back to VLF Omega, that was around before you were sucking on your mumma's teet. but just for laughs I do flip out the old CR3 now and again, it tells me everything I need to know faster than you can turn on your calculator. So come on then I really want to know.

[tartare]

I make a point of largely avoiding the ANZ forum and this one.
Occasionally I check in to see if there's anything interesting.
But the amount of acidic bile and negativity, particularly in the Australia - New Zealand forum and mainly from one or two individuals there is just a waste of time.
All they do is whine and complain - and offer no positive solutions.
Much better to hang out in other forums, where there's wit, and a bit of wick too.
Don't really care about the UX - look and feel - it's the banter and info I'm interested in.

[VH-FTS]

Really!!! well last time I checked the same Aircraft in the same Companies are still operating today, the same ones I flew 10 years ago, so do share this new school learning you speak of, I'm beside myself in anticipation.

P.S I've been hearing about this new school learning for about 40 years. I've always prided myself in keeping up, including HTML5 all the why back to VLF Omega, that was around before you were sucking on your mumma's teet. but just for laughs I do flip out the old CR3 now and again, it tells me everything I need to know faster than you can turn on your calculator. So come on then I really want to know.

If you're having a joke, well played sir. But if you're serious, this is exactly the type of attitude I was talking about. This bull**** is exactly why two generations of pilots now have no time for pprune. But many of you can't see the problem when you are the problem. Look forward to your reply when I drop back in a week or two and see what all the crusty old guys are complaining about now.

[Xeptu]

If you're having a joke, well played sir. But if you're serious, this is exactly the type of attitude I was talking about. This bull**** is exactly why two generations of pilots now have no time for pprune. But many of you can't see the problem when you are the problem. Look forward to your reply when I drop back in a week or two and see what all the crusty old guys are complaining about now.

Well I have no clue what your talking about, seriously explain it to me, I honestly want to know, I won't judge.

[Lead Balloon]

It's become mostly deja vu all over again all over again. Each cycle tends to involve less well-informed input on the one hand and frustration - sometimes complete resignation - by those who know of what they speak on the other.

A new talking head 'in charge' at CASA? Used to generate pages and pages of speculation about the 'big changes' that would - surely this time - save the aviation world. These days: Shrug and move on.

Regulatory 'reform'? Only in the Orwellian world of 21st century Australian 'government' could a stinking and abandoned pile of regulatory crap be described as 'resolved' and completed'. What's the point in highlighting the truth when those responsible have no shame?

A new 'inquiry' into some aviation-related issue? Used to generate pages and pages of speculation about what would happen - this time - when the truth was finally revealed - this time - and the government or Parliament would take strong action to change things - this time. These days: Most are standing by for another damp squib report. The Senate Committee inquiry into GA has been nobbled, and not just by Covid-19. The focus on the small number of submissions is a weak excuse that fails - as usual - to comprehend the implications of the submissions that have been made and, ironically, why there are so few. And the Committee wouldn't know how to change things for the better, even if it wanted to.

Airspace procedures and arrangements? The OAR has only one oar these days, which is why it spends so much time paddling in circles. Amusing at one level; ghastly from an air safety perspective.

ATSB? Too many works of fiction - some deliberate, some inadvertent - passed off as investigation reports. Submission #54 to the current Senate 'inquiry' into GA provides a glimpse into the ATSB/CASA protection racket. And it amazes me to see how many exhaustive, world-wide searches for executives result in the same-old same-old jagging jobs on the aviation bureaucracy merry-go-round. Again, trying to shame people who have no shame is a pointless exercise.

Airport 'privatisation' and divestment? What other outcomes would we expect in a country where property development spivs have so much influence? Highlighting the consequences here won't change anything.

And then there's the misnomer - at least down here - "professional". Name any other site where "professionals" carry on as many do here and name any other "profession" that would tolerate some of the things that pilots do and say to their colleagues. As others have observed, pilots in Australia are their own worst enemy.

[Xeptu]

Agree entirely with KRviator, an inappropriate response to a legitimate question. That said, I don't see that sort of thing is any different in other forums like facebook, in those forums responses are usually just a few meaningless words and either for or against. Specialist forums are not anonymous, so members are less likely to make an ass of themselves among the members. Clubs are notorious for that type of behaviour, factions, long before the internet.

My main objection is blaming it on "dinosaurs with old school views" without explaining that which is not "old school" we didn't make the rules nor did we have any part in the sops or company policy, they pay us though to comply with them the same as you.

Now that I'm retired and it's my aircraft, we do it my way and you can call it any school you like, any questions.

P.S Pilots are not on the professions list.

[Flyer517]

I agree totally with KRviator's sentiments.

Particularly with new folks and aspiring pilots joining the forums and asking questions. I have often seen responses like "if you'd have used the search function you wouldn't have to ask that question" or something to that effect. The way I view that type of response is it's like a potential student walking in to a flying club, asking a question, and being told "Ask that guy over there, I told him last week". So OK, maybe search was an option. But it isn't exactly welcoming and wouldn't be acceptable in real life. And frankly nobody here is obliged to answer questions. If we want our industry / hobby / passion to thrive, there needs to be more welcoming support to anyone who shows an interest, and some respect for those whose opinions don't align with our own.

As a child I had a whole lot of people who warmly supported my passion, put up with my incessant airplane talk, and indulged my stupid questions. I had the same welcome the first time I walked in to a Flying School. I suspect I may have walked away if I got the sort of responses I see here regularly.

I must say I think we need a dedicated Regulatory / Regulator thread, maybe combined with a What Cheeses Me Off thread. Perhaps that might let us have some proper hangar talk and flying stories - the stuff that bores my better half. Every thread doesn't have to come back to how it's all CASA's fault (even if that is the case).

[Pinky the pilot]

As a child I had a whole lot of people who warmly supported my passion, put up with my incessant airplane talk, and indulged my stupid questions. I had the same welcome the first time I walked in to a Flying School. I suspect I may have walked away if I got the sort of responses I see here regularly.

Hear bloody hear!!!:ok::ok: Especially the second paragraph!

It depresses me no end to see some beginner/prospective/new-be put up a post asking questions, even though they may be possibly easily having obvious answers (but only to those who already know) to get nothing but sarcastic or patronising replies.:ugh:

But the amount of acidic bile and negativity, particularly in the Australia - New Zealand forum and mainly from one or two individuals there is just a waste of time.
All they do is whine and complain - and offer no positive solutions.

Others elsewhere have noted likewise.

I must say I think we need a dedicated Regulatory / Regulator thread, maybe combined with a What Cheeses Me Off thread. Perhaps that might let us have some proper hangar talk and flying stories - the stuff that bores my better half. Every thread doesn't have to come back to how it's all CASA's fault (even if that is the case).


Over to you, Mods.

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

Forums like this generally are dying, it’s mainly just us old people on them now as most youngsters are on things like Reddit or discord and obviously Instagram perhaps also Facebook (but that’s apparently also for old people)

I’ve seen a few online communities also go through a similar journey over the years, firstly they’re a (usually) friendly place where like minded people gather over a shared interest, then there’s a push to get numbers up before a sale to the big organisation who come in with all their rules and whatnot. Now they’re all suffering with the initial theme of the forum diluted, no real community feel and no new enthusiasm to power the whole thing. They basically become victims of their own success to a certain extent.

They often go from being communities and sources of information for the users to a way of getting sales or clicks on another business for the new owners and the users are just an inconvenience needing to be moderated.

Plus there’s not much flying going on with the pandemic and Microsoft flightsim 2020 is out, so many pilots are probably on that instead.

[Doors To Manuel]

Partly it's a reflection of the times. As well as having a life I run a very different website with a focus on the airline community, and my web traffic there is 80% down on what it was back in 2019. It's a membership site and the blunt truth is that so many airline people have lost their jobs, have quit the industry and moved on.
I'm sure Prune will survive, albeit just like those legacy carriers who will still be around in a decade and more.
Harking back to the heydays of Prune glory, I also wrote a whole novel in the aviation genre where I got much authentic background from the various threads on here. Of course, I was not allowed to advertise it here, but it still did OK.
Like others have said, I used to be a daily user, but now my activity has dwindled to an occasional peek.

[finestkind]

Forums like this generally are dying, it’s mainly just us old people on them now as most youngsters are on things like Reddit or discord and obviously Instagram perhaps also Facebook (but that’s apparently also for old people)

I’ve seen a few online communities also go through a similar journey over the years, firstly they’re a (usually) friendly place where like minded people gather over a shared interest, then there’s a push to get numbers up before a sale to the big organisation who come in with all their rules and whatnot. Now they’re all suffering with the initial theme of the forum diluted, no real community feel and no new enthusiasm to power the whole thing. They basically become victims of their own success to a certain extent.

They often go from being communities and sources of information for the users to a way of getting sales or clicks on another business for the new owners and the users are just an inconvenience needing to be moderated.

Plus there’s not much flying going on with the pandemic and Microsoft flightsim 2020 is out, so many pilots are probably on that instead.

If there was one I would hit the like button.

[VH-FTS]

Some good comments above about why the forum is dying. The other consideration is many pilots communicate these days with each other via messenger apps. Most of the aviation information I receive is from a group chat, whereas 10 years ago pprune would have the breaking news. Now it's common to hear about something interesting (incident or general aviation news), but it never sees the light of day on these forums. Many people also communicate visually these days via gifs, images, videos and memes. Pprune hasn't always been that user-friendly to upload that sort of content, and it is rarely seen.

When I joined over 15 years ago, a lot of the industry thought pprune was toxic. Now it's toxic and the content is largely irrelevant. I used to ask questions during flight like "oh, did you read about blah on pprune?", and the answers these days are usually "nah, it's all too negative" or "no, that forum is just a bunch of old white guys arguing". To be honest, they're correct and it shows the attitudes people outside this forum have about the site.

Ironically, part of the toxicity I mention is the back and forward I've got going with Xeptu. To answer your question about wanting to know the new school view, the biggest change over the last decade or so is attitudes in the flight deck and toward people in general. The captain isn't the be-all and end-all of the flight, it's the whole crew that needs to come together. FOs aren't just flap operators and FAs aren't just trolley dollies. There has been a push to improve crew resource management, and society's movement towards more respect for people in general. I've seen it in person and on these forums, where the older guys trash the opinions of the newer pilots. There's a lack of inclusion in general, and particularly in these forums. For example, the comments you see from time to time about female pilots or Alan's Joyce's sexual preferences (as examples) show that this forum isn't for everyone and outsiders aren't welcome. That's part of the reason why users and participation on this page are dropping.

Xeptu, your comments perfectly demonstrate the demeaning attitudes towards younger generations and why they don't want to be part of this forum:

so do share this new school learning you speak of, I'm beside myself in anticipation
P.S I've been hearing about this new school learning for about 40 years.
that was around before you were sucking on your mumma's teet. but just for laughs I do flip out the old CR3 now and again, it tells me everything I need to know faster than you can turn on your calculator.

You must have been a great guy to fly with, with attitudes like that. The sort of guy FOs would call in sick for, but you never knew because your thought you were perfect and the other pilot just politely smiles to get through their day. Or perhaps you were just having a bad day on pprune, I'll never know. I'll take a bet you were just having a bad day, but unfortunately there are a lot of old school attitudes still out there.

Overall, keeping the forum like it is (both tech and attitude-wise) will mean only an older demographic continues to participate. But if that's what the developers and mods want, that's fine. In the meantime this is what the majority of the industry thinks of most of the people posting on these forums:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/680x383/297_png_233231fddb1a43a8a76c85d25626e3fc37ab6f3e.jpg

[Sandy Reith]

As usual Lead Balloon and Dick are on the money, and its obvious enough that FB is making inroads. Another website caters particularly for the tragic scene of Australia’s General Aviation, its all part of a changing and competitive environment.

Thirty three years of a failed experiment, handing over the total regulatory function for Australia’s aviation industry to an unelected independent Commonwealth corporate, has reduced the aviator population, in large part by killing off hundreds of flying schools. If the BITRE statistics of declining activity in GA are related to our doubled population (say 50 yrs) then we see more realistically the forgone benefits, jobs, businesses and services that would have flourished if we had had a workable regulatory environment for GA.

Now the grapevine is saying that there’s a flurry of consternation within the fortress of Aviation Hearse. Maybe our new Minister Barnaby Joyce has told them to fix the mess? Time will tell.
Much of our exhortation for reform has been that CASA should follow the regulations of NZ and of the FAA. Canada too gets mentioned, and all three jurisdictions do have far better and more workable regulations.
How might this play out?
Let’s say that CASA has indeed conceded their outer perimeter, and waved the white flag to pacify that bunch of rabble in AOPA, and the rest of those unruly criminals, otherwise known as Australia’s General Aviation community.

“Yes Minister, we are looking at the changes we might be able to implement and we think we should make a study tour, NZ, USA and Canada to see if their models could work here.”

B.J., “How long will this take?”

“With COVID its hard to say, but a fortnight’s quarantine in Hawaii for our team might be arranged, then home again. After quarantine again there’ll have to be stakeholder engagement. What with Xmas, summer holidays and staff shortages we might be able to have legislation drafted say middle next year.”

(Around about election time! Yippee, we put ‘em off again and, with luck, a Labor Minister will dump the whole of this sorry ‘reform’ nonsense.)

This is how the salary factory works.

The only way that could lead to successful reform, a total capitulation, insist that:-

(1.) Glen Buckley is compensated.

(2.) Immediate reforms implemented by exemptions to allow independent instructors now. In effect what we we used to have.

(3.) Parallel licensing for RAAUS, GFA and VH pilots.

(4.) Car driver medical standards for PPLs.

(5.) Ask Home Affairs to remove the ASIC requirement in line with the Forsyth report 2014.

(6.) Chief Pilots allowed to certify each other’s annual Proficiency checks.

7, 8, 9, 10 etc., you name them.

If there’s no actual runs on the board right now there’s no change and no score, time fritters away, opportunities fade, and people die.

[Xeptu]

To answer your question about wanting to know the new school view, the biggest change over the last decade or so is attitudes in the flight deck and toward people in general. You must have been a great guy to fly with, with attitudes like that. The sort of guy FOs would call in sick for, but you never knew because your thought you were perfect and the other pilot just politely smiles to get through their day. Or perhaps you were just having a bad day on pprune, I'll never know. I'll take a bet you were just having a bad day, but unfortunately there are a lot of old school attitudes still out there.

I didn't see myself the way you describe and I doubt that most of my colleagues did either, I could be deluded but they were always free to tell me I'm being an arsehole without consequence.

Here's the thing, what you have described has been the case since Adam and Eve. I know what you're talking about I was there. you will never please everyone you work with, there will always be factions, we called it the "in crowd" when you get to 70 and retired you will yourself be "old school" and a grumpy old geriatric, Wear the badge with pride because only you know the truth, everyone else has a very short memory. When you're retired, if they are telling you, you were an arsehole, then you were and even if you weren't after 5 years they won't even remember your name.

That's how it is and I've always said it how it is.

[Ultralights]

wow, first time back, after 10 years or more... nothing has changed... if you dont change, you get left behind and become irrelevent.

[Squawk7700]

wow, first time back, after 10 years or more... nothing has changed... if you dont change, you get left behind and become irrelevent.

10 years?

Someone else must have been using your account then.

[Ultralights]

maybe not exactly 10yrs, but enough for an Undergrad degree and Phd in unrelated field.

but like the faces around the airfields, not enough young ones, or more pilots have become like me, just fly, enjoy, put aircraft away, tinker a bit, keep your head down lest CASA come and smite thee, and go home.

[Grumpy retiree]

What’s the matter Xeptu ?
Stopped getting invites to Christmas drinks ?
There were probably hints before you retired.
Heads up to young Captains………..

[Xeptu]

What’s the matter Xeptu ?
Stopped getting invites to Christmas drinks ?
There were probably hints before you retired.
Heads up to young Captains………..

I did, how rude eh! but seriously there is no-one left, certainly none older than me still there, so many have passed or moved on. That's life.

[Pinky the pilot]

enough for an Undergrad degree and Phd in unrelated field.

Well done, Dr Ultralights!:ok:

Once worked with another Pilot in PNG who had a Phd in Geology, specifically the formation of the Flinders Ranges.
Got to read his thesis too. Most interesting.

Sandy Reith; A very well argued post!
Maybe our new Minister Barnaby Joyce has told them to fix the mess?

We can but hope but I'm not holding my breath.

[DeltaT]

Personally I find the speed with which personal attacks or petty arguments happen on a lot of threads vey depressing. Within the blink of an eye, what I hoped would be a good aviation related conversation, descends in to a childish argument or slanging match.

Yes agree with this. its called an ad hominem argument.
Mod intervention seems to be lacking on those occasions, and now the outcome is all too obvious.
I bet certain airlines are pleased.

[Sandy Reith]

Well done, Dr Ultralights!:ok:.

Sandy Reith; A very well argued post!
We can but hope but I'm not holding my breath.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/566x754/cb1b70bb_909a_47b6_b7c7_922c434ada8a_32131c408bd9b8ab555b5bd 65f0b011c0d6af4af.png
US:- $15.99 book with index. Training (or Charter) USA. Teach flying? Start immediately with this book and your instructor rating. Part 141/142 optional but easy enough with FAA template.
Oz, our CASASTROPHE:-
Negotiated, edited library $thousands, months or years, maybe permissible eventually, or not.
No interest? We’ve lost hundreds of flying schools.

Thank you Pinky, after some thirty years of watching, often with despair, hope is in short supply but there’s no giving up.

This thread starts with postulating a lack of interest, of course with GA battered and bruised and many having simply walked away then its not surprising. With a rational regulatory environment the GA industry could easily be two or three times it’s present truncated size with a number of important benefits. Training sufficient pilots for commercial ops, when they come back, maintenance and manufacturing opportunities and a boost for private GA which has languished with debilitating and unnecessary stringencies around medicals, maintenance and ASICs. The latter three items being especially harsh for those who live in the outback.

[mcoates]

that one photograph says it all

[machtuk]

That photo has been around for a long time, WE know what it represents but not the inept grubby authority!

[Lead Balloon]

It represents the fortune made by people on 6 figure salaries who've taken decades to produce the pile of regulatory dross.

[finestkind]

It represents the fortune made by people on 6 figure salaries who've taken decades to produce the pile of regulatory dross.And also the ignorant that do not nor wish to know better. A bit of a sideslip on the post and I may have already told this story . Whilst undergoing my SCPL, some years, ago the chap running the show had numerous interesting stories about our governing bodies. One of these was whilst training a chap who happened to be a Barrister ( with obviously too many spare neurons) and going through CAO, CAA and the ABC’s said Barrister made the comment “I can hardly decipher this sh*T. Tell you what I’ll translate it into normal speak”. Did so with the renewed easy to read work passed onto the CAA (?) whom stated “looks good but will have to pass to our legal dept to check”. Did so and as you can guess came back even more Martian.

Why is it that bureaucracy appears to function primarily on the obfuscation of details. Now you may say that is to make their six figure salaries relevant and give them a feeling of importance.Unfortunately given that most of these people, in a position of power, that adjudicate these things have no idea, in this case aviation, of which way is up.

[Flyer517]

In a previous post on this thread I said:

Every thread doesn't have to come back to how it's all CASA's fault (even if that is the case).


Yet here we are again. So to answer the original question posed, this is what turns me off personally. It always comes back to complaints about the regulator and that bores me to tears. I would much rather talk about aircraft and the pleasure of aviation.

[finestkind]

In a previous post on this thread I said:

Yet here we are again. So to answer the original question posed, this is what turns me off personally. It always comes back to complaints about the regulator and that bores me to tears. I would much rather talk about aircraft and the pleasure of aviation.Certainly appreciate where you are coming from but when the fun is taken out of it, it is hard not to have a whinge. I think there are other post that are more focused on the joys of flight with this one honestly being started on a viable topic of have we lost interest. Attesting to this are the post on how we are no longer civil to one another which often turn nasty (laying on the professionals couch the causation would easily be attributed to the frustration of having the fun taken out of flying). A lot of post are negative with aircrew venting their spleen (mostly justifiably) about how the aviation industry has changed from what it once was. This in turn causes friction with the younger aircrew (probably less than 45 yo) who do not have any experience in being treated like a valued employee.

I also would like posts to be about the fun of flying and the shared experiences but with the good comes.........

[Xeptu]

I'm hearing you, the fun in flying ended on 9/11/2001 when that bullet proof door was installed. But this is a GA Forum and in my experience all the fun was when we were not flying. They were the good days, many a good story told from the Top End.

Darwin had a Cage Bar you know, that should kick it off....

[Lookleft]

Yet here we are again. So to answer the original question posed, this is what turns me off personally. It always comes back to complaints about the regulator and that bores me to tears. I would much rather talk about aircraft and the pleasure of aviation.

Very good point. The thread was about why we are losing interest in Pprune. I don't think its just us though. If you have a look at the Canadian forum and the North American forum it is obvious that interest is being lost all around. Even the original R&N has very little on it. As others have said there are more places to voice an opinion and the younger ones are not interested in more posts about CASA, ATSB and Airservices.

[Pinky the pilot]

One of these was whilst training a chap who happened to be a Barrister ( with obviously too many spare neurons) and going through CAO, CAA and the ABC’s said Barrister made the comment “I can hardly decipher this sh*T.

Precisely! A Lawyer aquaintance of mine once had a need to go through the old ANO and ANR documents (quite some years ago, obviously) and he made the observation that 'You need to have a legal background to even begin to understand some of this sh*t...':ugh:

He also pointed out several direct contradictions in the ANR's. :ooh:

His parting comment was that they were obviously written by a Lawyer who specialised in legalese and pettifoggery!:rolleyes:

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

G'Day Mr Pinky..................

That shud read 'Pettibuggery', ......Sir....."Please excuse me whilst I give U the 'Royal Pineapple' treatment.".........................................

NO Cheers 'ere...NOPE...NONE at all.......

Nice to see ya still 'Vertical'....Cheeeerrrsss...

[triadic]

To us older (?) folk it seems indeed that the priorities are elsewhere these days as casual observation of the forum suggests that its use and the participation of some regulars is somewhat less than it was a year or so ago.

As one might expect the culture changes and is perhaps 'different' every decade. It is now obvious that many of the long-term participants in this forum have retired completely and don’t visit any more or perhaps are ‘observers only’. Some recent threads in the past would have generated significant discussion, but that does not seem to occur that much now (??).

At least one other aviation forum seems to have only a small number of vocal participants on subjects that are most likely of personal interest and do not generate wide discussion.

Of course, there is good old Facebook, in which some of the many ‘Groups’ have significant discussion on specific subjects eg: old aircraft, history etc.

Things might change, but we will just have to hang in to see how it pans out. The upside is that we know that many of the decision makers make it their business to keep a finger on the prune pulse, which can only be a good thing (saves writing to the Minister!)

[Sleepsleep]

because r/flying and r/aviation exists

end

Also as the first few replies mentioned this forum just feels more old school, so young people (I mean new users) won't be drawn in that easily. Older generations go onto pprune and read 5000 word essays , while younger generations are more drawn to a casual chat on Discord. Young aviation lovers are still significant in number, just that instead of making an account here they just join an aviation related Discord server or watch a pilot YouTuber, none of which will expose them to 5000 word essays and "boomer humor" on a daily basis. A very good representation of this is memes - for a starter on how different generations are go watch some kracc bacc or shidbot420 on YouTube then compare these videos to Facebook memes. (friendly reminder: do not wear headphones)

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Sandy's photo has been used before as has a similar argument put by one D Smith many years ago complaining about the enormity of amendments and maps...all supplied FOC...that he and his chief pilot had to wade through every cycle. However, MCCoates has a point. I find myself only checking occasionally what is up on the board. Where once, a couple of days lapsed and you would find a full page of highlighted threads with new posts. Today? Only three threads active, including this one. Peoples, PPRUNE may be coming irrelevant. This place was the font of knowledge for all things Australian aviation. Arguments here led to changes in airspace. Truely, some heavy hitters walked these boards. Politics is a flavour many do not savor. I am a PPL but over the years people have considered my input by entering into argument in the spirit of same without the need to ad hom my "experience". For example, posts on the MNG thread and similar do not even raise a reply or contradictory argument. FB is not a good forum for airing opinions without being blasted by trolls. This type of forum is still sorely needed. Consider the fact that if PPRUNE was active around 1980, imagine the airing some of the regulatory changes would have copped in the proposition stage. Hope this place is still here in another twenty years.

[Lapon]

Certainly the events of the last couple of years have kept the airline oriented discussions quiter, but I think the last decade or so has seen the rise and rise of Googles ability provide information once only readily found in forums such as these.

Whether that related to how something works, procedures and techniques, whose hiring, or aviaton adventures Google has an immediate answer, and YouTube channels have the ability to quell other curiosities.

[Lead Balloon]

I continue to take enormous comfort from the fact that no amount of googling or youtubing will fix illiteracy or innumeracy.

[Pinky the pilot]

I continue to take enormous comfort from the fact that no amount of googling or youtubing will fix illiteracy or innumeracy.

Or another view if I may Leady; "Ignorance can be cured by Education. Stupidity however, cannot."

[Squawk7700]

It’s just not the same here since Sunfish and LeadSled left.

[KRviator]

Or another view if I may Leady; "Ignorance can be cured by Education. Stupidity however, cannot."A slight thread drift, one of the magnets on our fridge one says "You can't fix STUPID. Even with duct tape!"

[Arm out the window]

I'm pretty sure LeadSled hasn't really left, still produces many a paragraph.

[Lookleft]

It’s just not the same here since Sunfish and LeadSled left.

Very true S7700, now if I want to be spoken down to and have the condescension level ramped up to extreme I watch Alan Jones and Andrew Bolt.

[megan]

A slight thread drift, one of the magnets on our fridge one says "You can't fix STUPID. Even with duct tape!"Attributed to Einstein, “Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity.”

[Lookleft]

Good news, Sunfish has been found! Clearly limited access to a computer has been the issue:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-23/2-tonne-sunfish-found-in-mediterranean-sea/100562924

[Towering Q]

Interesting thread. Facebook, and the other platforms have definitely stolen many eyeballs from these forums.
Also, I remember trawling Pprune a lot more when flying was something I did in my spare time.
Having worked fulltime in the industry since 2002, I just don't have the same interest in the topics being discussed.