Future salary expectations?

[Skippy69]

With many carriers, if not all not only in Oz but also all those big players overseas, Emirates, Qatar, Cathay severley slashing their employees contracts and benefits/ conditions what's the outlook like beyond the pandemic? There is obviously an abundance of out of work pilots currently, but that will turn to a shortage in time. If I where a company owner, I'd keep low salaries etc as it would be better for shareholders and profits etc. BUT, as a pilot this looks pretty bleak, is decent remuneration a thing of the past or in a post pandemic world can we as pilots hopefully see an upturn in pay and conditions? One example would be that B crews would get paid for their entire flight and not just their time in the cockpit?

[neville_nobody]

With many carriers, if not all not only in Oz but also all those big players overseas, Emirates, Qatar, Cathay severley slashing their employees contracts and benefits/ conditions what's the outlook like beyond the pandemic? There is obviously an abundance of out of work pilots currently, but that will turn to a shortage in time. If I where a company owner, I'd keep low salaries etc as it would be better for shareholders and profits etc. BUT, as a pilot this looks pretty bleak, is decent remuneration a thing of the past or in a post pandemic world can we as pilots hopefully see an upturn in pay and conditions? One example would be that B crews would get paid for their entire flight and not just their time in the cockpit?

Unfortunately there is no real market forces for pilots in Australia. Due to seniority systems noone can really leave their present employer for another one that pays more unless you are moving from a Regional to a Domestic Carrier. Even that could result in a pay cut. Moving jobs usually means a reduction in salary regardless of experience. Expect foreigners to flood the labour market here before there is any meaningful increase in pay.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Like after every single other downturn in aviation history - boom times will follow.

Pick your carrier if you can for one that isn’t consistently ‘racing to the bottom’ and you will do just fine.

[Cafe City]

Like after every single other downturn in aviation history - boom times will follow.

Pick your carrier if you can for one that isn’t consistently ‘racing to the bottom’ and you will do just fine.

I challenge you to name one…

[neville_nobody]

Is there any airline in Australia that is paying their pilots more money in real terms as opposed to 2000?

[ScepticalOptomist]

I challenge you to name one…

Not too many choices in Oz and NZ, but the oldies are probably the goodies for a career of good pay.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Is there any airline in Australia that is paying their pilots more money in real terms as opposed to 2000?

Probably hard to answer as most would have had promotions and type changes that kept the pay scales rising nicely over 20yrs. Doubt anyone is earning less than they were 20yrs ago.

[gulliBell]

There are EBA's and Awards which guarantee pay and conditions that can't be eroded whatever the economic climate. So for anybody getting a better deal than the Award, good luck to them.

[Goat Whisperer]

Is there any airline in Australia that is paying their pilots more money in real terms as opposed to 2000?

I haven't run the numbers but I suspect that VA is better coin now than VB was in 2000.

[Transition Layer]

Maybe so, but in real terms? Probably not, especially with the recent haircut VA have taken.

[morno]

Maybe so, but in real terms? Probably not, especially with the recent haircut VA have taken.

I see this “real terms” a lot. What exactly do you expect to be paid compared to the average person? I’m guessing your “real terms” would be around $350-400k a year now if you had your way.

Look I’m not one to refuse more and more money, but let’s be realistic, what we earnt pre-covid, was pretty good, and if you couldn’t live comfortably, maybe you should be taking a look at your situation.

[ScepticalOptomist]

I see this “real terms” a lot. What exactly do you expect to be paid compared to the average person? I’m guessing your “real terms” would be around $350-400k a year now if you had your way.

Look I’m not one to refuse more and more money, but let’s be realistic, what we earnt pre-covid, was pretty good, and if you couldn’t live comfortably, maybe you should be taking a look at your situation.

I think most refer to real terms as being adjusted for inflation. I'm not an economist, but my understanding is that it's a pretty subjective measure as it depends a lot on other costs inflating at different rates.
In "real terms" your annual salary increases will be eaten away to some degree by CPI, however other cost of living items not covered by CPI may actually be a lot cheaper. When we also take into account assets like your home appreciating it's a little difficult to quantify.

Or I'm completely misunderstanding the premise. Which is entirely possible.

Compared to 20 years ago when I joined my "legacy" carrier, I'm substantially better off in regards to salary. Whether or not that salary gain would have been higher in "real terms" compared to the previous generation of pilots who started 20 yrs earlier I don't know.

As an aside, I don't see $350K as being unreasonable for a professional tied into one company for many decades of service. Lots of professions (and non professions) earn similar if not a lot more.
Don't be one of those guys that talks the job down to being nothing more than a basic trade.

[unobtanium]

There are EBA's and Awards which guarantee pay and conditions that can't be eroded whatever the economic climate. So for anybody getting a better deal than the Award, good luck to them.

The solution is very simple, create a new subsidiary and start over. So yous can either accept a 2% pay "rise" (effectively a pay cut) or a 100% pay cut and go stack shelves at woolies.

[Cafe City]

There are EBA's and Awards which guarantee pay and conditions that can't be eroded whatever the economic climate. So for anybody getting a better deal than the Award, good luck to them.

Are you delusional or living on another planet where money grows on trees???

[kingRB]

When we also take into account assets like your home appreciating it's a little difficult to quantify.


This may come as a shock - but the value of your home isn't appreciating. The value of the dollar is plummeting.

[ExtraShot]

Right now EFA (QF freight) are negotiating their eba. Currently a large number of pilots are being paid below the 2021 pilot award as a result of the eba expiring in 2018.

The qantas group policy of 2% pa won’t even get the current wages about the award.

So if that isn’t a reflection of the state of the industry right now I don’t know what is.

Really?!

Freight was one of the ‘winners’ out of Covid, no? Busier than ever… lots of business.

If true that’s a complete disgrace.

[ElZilcho]

I see this “real terms” a lot. What exactly do you expect to be paid compared to the average person? I’m guessing your “real terms” would be around $350-400k a year now if you had your way.

Look I’m not one to refuse more and more money, but let’s be realistic, what we earnt pre-covid, was pretty good, and if you couldn’t live comfortably, maybe you should be taking a look at your situation.

Real terms refers to the buying power of your income.

At Air NZ we’ve negotiated CPI +1% as a mechanism for calculating annual increases. Meanwhile, house prices have increased on average 20-25% in the last year across the whole country. My Auckland property would be closer to 40%.

When I first started flying Jets on ~$80k as a 737 FO, I could afford to purchase a (modest) house in Auckland. Today? New hires earn about 50% more than I started on while house prices have tripled.

Those of us who have hung onto the first wife, with mortgages based on prices 10+ Years ago while resisting the urge to throw a Boat and BMW on top of it, are mostly immune to this cost of living Criss. Our 2% or so per year does an alright job of keeping up with inflation (although we’re still slowly going backwards). But for those just starting out? Even without COVID, the buying power of their salaries is vastly reduced in “real terms” compared to what we started on.

Families with 2 working parents used to be quite rare, then it became more common…now it’s almost required to pay the bills.

[ScepticalOptomist]

This may come as a shock - but the value of your home isn't appreciating. The value of the dollar is plummeting.

I think I get what you’re saying, but it’s this type of nuance that gets me a little lost…wouldn’t that mean we had / have some sort of hyper inflation?

[V-Jet]

I was going to comment and say I think it's great there ARE future salary expectations - other than for Management of course:)

Then this came up:
This may come as a shock - but the value of your home isn't appreciating. The value of the dollar is plummeting.
100% nailed it!!

SO (above): The way it might make more sense is to ask yourself if it's the 'hard' assets that change value relative to the dollar (gold, real estate and a few others) or is it the dollar (paper currency) that changes value relative to the 'hard' asset price?

If Tuthankhamun's death mask was covered in Egyptian share scrip, would it have created the big news it did?

[MelbourneFlyer]

Meanwhile, "Pandemic-hit Qantas weighs new pay structure to keep key executives" https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/pandemic-hit-qantas-weighs-new-pay-structure-keep-key-executives-2021-09-17/