CPL Graduates... no jobs? [Archive]

Dawn Patrol

7th Sep 2021, 06:51

Id say hang in there. But expand the horizons beyond Darwin. Look at spotting planes on the west coast (they’ll be end of season now but fire up late December/early Jan), station work, Kununurra (again maybe next season), anywhere you can find that has a 172/182/206/210 etc.
Things can, and often do, change quickly. Even in good times it can take a year or more for the first job. It’ll come.

I’m guessing it’s not as soul destroying as the guys and girls with 10,000 hrs B737 time who are also working in call centres.

Why would it be any different? Not sure of the relevance to the question.

Glorified Dus Briver

7th Sep 2021, 06:55

Posting the obligatory "hang in there, your dream will come true" comment to add to the others.

ManillaChillaDilla

7th Sep 2021, 07:18

Is this a wind up?

Jesus.

MCD

Luke SkyToddler

7th Sep 2021, 07:24

I'm a 13000 hour A320 skip, working down on the docks here in New Zealand, as a casual labourer operating diggers and cranes. We've also got an A330 TRE from QR, a Virgin 737 skip, 4 fixed wing CPL graduates, and a rotary guy who lost his job after the White Island fiasco. These are extraordinary times.

Hang in there, but also don't kid yourself that it's gonna be anything other than a LONG wait. Getting the first GA job isn't about who's the best pilot, it's about who's the last one standing and who wants it the most when all the others have quit. You'll suddenly get that golden phone call when you least expect it

kingRB

7th Sep 2021, 08:26

Soul destroying eh? I worked in a call centre for 10 years to pay for my licences. There were no loans when I did it. I've got mates that have thousands of hours flying widebodies now working in call centres, their careers severely disrupted or destroyed. Yet strangely enough don't need to post up attention seeking threads whining about their situation - they are just getting on with it.

machtuk

7th Sep 2021, 08:56

An all too familiar story these days, a lot of it the legacy of the bull**** training outlets spew out! Pilot shortage, plenty of work, go network.....
A flying career theses days is not a forever gig anymore, best have several other skills to ride the ever changing fragile world of aviation!

felixthecat

7th Sep 2021, 08:57

15000hr+ 777 captain and twiddling thumbs wondering what the hell to do……..so whilst I have sympathy …….

Grumpy retiree

7th Sep 2021, 12:10

Boy Petra,
You certainly know how to pick the wrong time and place.
Have you any idea what has happened to the airline industry over the last two years ?

zlin77

7th Sep 2021, 12:22

After obtaining my CPL in August 1973 there were no jobs, in those pre-internet days I would go to the Sydney GPO where they had a collection of telephone directories from all over Australia....looked up the Air Charter Yellow Pages and wrote letters to operators all over Australia, I was fortunate when in May 1974 I received a reply from a Central Queensland Charter Company who were after a SE VFR pilot, I had been working as delivery driver for a book publishing company for $60/week and could not believe my luck to secure a job at $100/week, by contrast my wife was a Primary School Teacher at $120/week... be patient and keep trying no matter how frustrating it seems... Good Luck and wishing you a long secure and safe career in aviation.

DUXNUTZ

7th Sep 2021, 12:49

Crikey. Hang in there. Best words of advice are that Australian Aviation is toxic as heck. Younger the better I’d get out.

StallsDeep

7th Sep 2021, 13:03

If you’re really wondering how many CPL graduates are out there in the ether looking for their first job, my guess would be a lot. The universities are still pumping out sausages in similar numbers to what they were doing pre covid, and instructor rating course also seem to be busy at the moment. Take comfort that a lot of people share your pain and frustration, some just at the beginning like you, some with families, mid way through their careers now with no prospects or qualifications to fall back on.
By the look of your user name I’d guess your mid twenties so still plenty of time to explore some other career options.

kungfu panda

7th Sep 2021, 20:54

As much as everyone would love to provide words of encouragement, right now those words would be hollow. Even in the UK which domestically is functioning in a similar manner to Pre-Covid, British Airways is only operating 21% of Pre-Covid flights. It's going to be a very long path to a full recovery. Any plans to join this profession should currently be on hold for the foreseeable future. It's pointless doing a licence and then coming on here and complaining about how heartbreaking it is to have done the work and now no job.
Something like 50% of qualified and experienced Pilots worldwide are currently not working in the industry.

Hunter S Thompson

7th Sep 2021, 21:06

Crickey guys, I find it really sad that the last 18 months hasn’t helped people develop much empathy for others’ situations. When I finished my training a long time ago the industry was in a protracted downturn, no jobs anywhere, plenty of negative people around ready to flame you. Obviously this situation is even worse but I think if you are determined and persist, network well and try to stay positive you will eventually succeed (might take several years though). Heading overseas is a good option when it becomes available, I did as soon as I could and found plenty of opportunities.

Developing a second career in the meantime would be sound advice though, think about what else interests you and take a look at what opportunities are available. If you have to use the call centre job to pay the bills in the meantime so be it, it won’t be forever.

And good luck to everyone else working menial jobs at the moment, I’m in the same situation as a 16000+hr TRE/TRI.

Go well.

Xeptu

7th Sep 2021, 21:28

engine out

7th Sep 2021, 21:31

Unfortunately, as you know, now is not a great time. However there has always been a surplus of pilots to jobs. The coarse I went through had 30+ pilots and only six of them ended up with aviation careers (2 of them had parents in the airlines). Finding the first job needs perseverance and often a large chunk of luck. You have to hang in there and accept there is no easy route.

geeup

7th Sep 2021, 22:05

Tell us more details about the Call Centre job and how to apply.

compressor stall

7th Sep 2021, 23:21

There will be huge demand in a year to 18 months - barring no post Delta variant wreaking havoc.

Soon after, there will be a pilot shortage the like of which we have never seen before.

Camara

7th Sep 2021, 23:45

Hey,
Just looking to see how many graduates are like me still waiting and seeking that first GA job? Who is in Darwin now just waiting?
I have finished everything and been recently applying for jobs in a Call Centre. Soul destroying given the money and time I've spent on flight training... to go and work in a Call Centre!!
Petra
15 years ago I had the choice of either following my lifelong dream of being a pilot or opening my own business. I chose the latter and I’m glad that I did. A direct result of that is me now being in a position where I don’t have to work anymore. I built up a business from scratch and sold it ten years later enabling me to do the things that I want to do now not what someone else wants me to do. I could get into flying if I wanted to for a pastime but as I get older it’s not the fast shiny things that get my attention these days, more so the lovely lines of a yacht and cruising along at a more leisurely pace. You need to be a little more situationally aware of your surroundings at the moment and adapt to survive. Get yourself a plan B because there’s a massive line of people in front of you with more experience than you’re likely to gain in a lifetime in the same boat as you looking for a way to put money on the table just to survive. I’m pretty sure a pilot with a poor sense of situation awareness won’t last too long in the wet season up north.

pommy80

8th Sep 2021, 05:37

I'm was in the same situation as you. Got my CPL/ME IR a couple of year's ago. My advice would be to get started in another career and fly in your spare time.

I'm now working as a train driver. It's helped me pay off my flight training and save for future flight review's when (hopefully) aviation get's back to where it once was.

PilotLZ

8th Sep 2021, 06:46

If you can spend an entire career, from school to retirement, on flying only - you've either done something right to deserve it or you've been plain lucky. For most pilots it simply doesn't work this way. Your first bout with unemployment might not be your last one. Even when it's all looking nice and stable, another blow might be just around the corner. Think COVID - did anyone expect such a crisis back in January 2020? People were looking forward to a prosperous year, many were amid a job change for something better they had been working hard towards, many were expecting an upgrade - and look what happened. The same goes for 9/11 and pretty much every other crisis in the history of aviation. It was always carnage in a matter of weeks, taking a few years to recover from.

So, if you can afford it, your time waiting for a flying job would be best used developing a second skill set to fall back on in case something crazy happens once again (and it most probably will). Whether you'll learn mining, coding or accounting is up to you. The important bit is that it will allow you a better alternative to the call centre - and will certainly put you in a better position than those many who never learned a second profession, hoping that things would never go sideways for them in aviation.

gulliBell

8th Sep 2021, 07:04

^^what they said^^

Go find something else productive to do.

Kundry

8th Sep 2021, 10:32

Look, I digress - the point I wanted to make is that from little things big things grow. Provided it's not a serious mental disorder, hard times will build hard people. The job search is half the fun. If you're just handed your first job (and I've met people who have!) you don't appreciate what you're doing as much. If you're a young person, the top end is a great place to sit around for a year or so.

cbradio

8th Sep 2021, 10:51

Does CASA release the number of licences (Student, Commercial, Instrument Ratings etc) being handed out?
There "appears" to be hundreds being pumped out through Vet-Fee and Fee-Help.all around the country. Be interesting to see the real numbers.

Capt Fathom

8th Sep 2021, 11:11

If you can spend an entire career, from school to retirement, on flying only - you've either done something right to deserve it or you've been plain lucky.

Exactly what I am doing. And many others I know.
So did we work to deserve it, or were we just plain lucky? Who decides?
It certainly didn’t fall into my lap!

Lots of people spend their whole life in just one career.

titan12

8th Sep 2021, 14:54

Perseverance and resilience. In the meantime, find another job.

layman

8th Sep 2021, 21:58

Small sample but, the pilots I know (or know of) that have remained employed as ‘high’ income pilots have all had the similar paths.

One career - yes.
One employer - no.
One type of flying - no.
One location - no (multiple places in Australia, and overseas)

Follow your passion but being a good pilot needs to be combined with a willingness to learn, hard work, and being prepared for significant change.

Xeptu

8th Sep 2021, 23:42

Ever since I was a young boy I was struggling. I believe my parents are both relatively low intelligence. My dad was sexually abused by his father and was violent and aggressive towards my mother all their marriage (and my step sisters). I'm not a normal person because of my home life from 0-18. When I was around 5, I remember my mum pointing a kitchen knife at my dad while I was playing Flight Sim 98 in the dining room. I had the 737 set up going over the sea from Brisbane or something - it crashed after I started crying and my step sisters took me into a bedroom and told me it was all okay. Violent yelling, violent crying, threats of divorce, dad moving away for months to have sexual massages or something (my brother and I woke up to some strange stuff left open on the family computer), mum having to bring four of us up on Centrelink. I didn't have any male role models or financial backing from my parents. The only reason I didn't get into drugs or something like that was because I stayed at home all the time and was bullied at school. No one even liked me enough to share drugs with me. In high school I was bullied for bad odour including bad breath. I remember one time I was walking between classes and one of my class mates said "do you wash your hair?". I ran my fingers through my hair and my hand came out very greasy. I didn't even realise it was so bad, I felt awful and just wanted to go home. It must have been glistening you could see and smell it a kilometre off. It's really hard to say, even to this day, but I was teased from year 8 - 12. There was one thing in particular they'd say, "kid who sh*ts himself". It hurts me to even write that down because of how it made me feel when they yelled that out at me while I was walking through the crowded foyer area at lunch.

Look, I digress - the point I wanted to make is that from little things big things grow. Provided it's not a serious mental disorder, hard times will build hard people. The job search is half the fun. If you're just handed your first job (and I've met people who have!) you don't appreciate what you're doing as much. If you're a young person, the top end is a great place to sit around for a year or so.

You my friend are destined for greatness. A tip though, be careful who you share your story with in the industry, they are so fickle and competitive, it will somehow make you less worthy.

mikewil

9th Sep 2021, 01:26

There will be huge demand in a year to 18 months - barring no post Delta variant wreaking havoc.

Soon after, there will be a pilot shortage the like of which we have never seen before.

I doubt it will be quite like you say, well there might be a shortage of type rated jet pilots who are also current.

There will be no shortage of CPL graduates looking for work. If anything, this will be worse than it's ever been. All the graduates that the sausage factories/universities are pumping out every year, will still be looking for entry level charter/instructor jobs only there will be 3+ years worth of them. The ones who got their qualifications at the beginning of the COVID disaster will be in a far worse position because they will not be very current unless they have spent a lot of extra money keeping hours up and ratings current.

I am in the above lousy situation, only I am in my early 30s with shocking timing twice. Finished my CPL during the global financial crisis so was unable to find charter work at the time so decided to do 'menial work' for a few years to keep the money coming in. Became a bit complacent and that became 10 years so decided at the end of 2019 that it was time to have another go because instructors were in huge demand so left what was a stable and relatively well paid job to do my instructor rating only for COVID to hit half way through, when most flying schools started laying off huge numbers of their instructors.

I cannot believe that even in the current climate, many sausage factories have instructor courses that are full. Obviously we have VET fee help to thank for this. I paid for my instructor rating outright, and sure wouldn't have spent money on it had I known what was coming.

Amazing how easy it is to sell a dream to suckers even with huge debt involved, with the "no consequences" carrot of not having to pay anything back until you are earning a certain amount.

I'm not expecting sympathy, I took risks at the wrong times and have to be responsible that they didn't pay off. Hoping that things pick up a bit in the next few years and I'll be able to have another crack.

umop apisdn

9th Sep 2021, 01:40

Exactly what I am doing. And many others I know.
So did we work to deserve it, or were we just plain lucky? Who decides?
It certainly didn’t fall into my lap!

Lots of people spend their whole life in just one career.

Checking in for the same, but I acknowledge the incredible luck that I've had, both with my timing and the choices I've made so far.

So I'm trying to start my way into real estate. Right now I expect to continue life with this prosperous flying career for the next 35 years. It would be nice to have a backup.

petra.oskertrich1995

9th Sep 2021, 06:54

Not sure what else to do! I've already spent time in Broome and Alice before returning to Melbourne and completed the FIR (last month). I've now topped up C206 time (total of 23 hours). I took out a personal loan for the instructor rating and finished it and was told nobody is being offered a job. Managed to add $21k to my overall debt accumulated from all of this training, plus a personal loan to cover C206 time. I've also finished the JPA course and have an IPC coming up in a few months which I'll do. So I understand that so many pilots have lost their jobs but I feel really disheartened because people like me have not even had a chance. I finished the CPL, MEIR courses under VET (which cost alot of money), plus the 2 personal loans and a total debt of just over $100k. The personal loans I need to start paying back at $830 a month. So I'll need to work in a call centre to start paying off loans for a career that will probably never happen.

JoeTripodi

9th Sep 2021, 09:07

Plenty of stood down and out of work pilots here. This video is for OP:
https://youtu.be/DksSPZTZES0

Middle.Marker

9th Sep 2021, 09:16

You should contact the GA Herald about your plight, I think they might have a contact at Uppercumbucca Airlines

kungfu panda

9th Sep 2021, 19:55

KRviator

9th Sep 2021, 21:50

Z_R has a point - and I tried to make the same last time you complained about this, petra...You're trying to get a toe-hold in an industry that has many hundreds, if not thousands of pilots who are out of work, with qualifications, experience and type ratings far above what you can offer. It ain't gonna work unless you get (extraordinarily) lucky. You need to cut your losses for now.

You can continue to throw good money after bad and hope you can get a flying job to start paying off your loans, or you can take charge of your future, get a decent paying job on a decent, if not a good roster, and ensure you can start paying them off. It doesn't have to be a powder-monkey's job, although you do get to make things go bang! in that role, there are a number of entry-level jobs with companies like WorkPac, Programmed etc that pay fairly well, and can lead to a FT gig on a 2/2 roster if you decide to fly part time.

Talking to a mate at a company with big robot trains filled with dirt, they're after Autonomous Response Assistants, basically a taxi driver for their actual Driver's to go out and Ctrl-Alt-Del the robot when it has a dummy-spit. They're advertising right now (https://www.seek.com.au/job/53577055), 2/2, FIFO out of Perth. It's listed at $37.43/Hr (not sure if that's total, base, includes Super or not, but you'll be doing a 168Hr FN, so that's over $80K a year, and you won't pay for your tucker on site, so that's 6 months of food/fuel/entertainment savings every year. And there's a good chance that'll lead to a FT role with said company with the big robot trains over time, if that's your thing.

I gave professional flying away many years ago, and now do a 2 on/4 off part time roster that still pays well over $100K, so I built an RV that fly for fun now. Much more enjoyable, and I don't have to deal with airport security every day....

Lead Balloon

9th Sep 2021, 22:24

^^^^THIS^^^^

Get a good job then fly for fun on your own terms.

Manny Calavera

10th Sep 2021, 01:37

Petra,

I've been casually following your story back from your previous posts and I feel for your situation, having been in it myself three years ago. After finishing a CPL(H), spending what could have been a deposit for a house and being unable to find any real flying work after a year of making the rounds (and spending even more money to do it), reality begins to hit you hard. It's humiliating and bitterly disappointing. As much as we tell ourselves at the beginning that we are prepared to do whatever it takes for however long it takes to get that first job, at some point it becomes impossible to keep going unless you already have money to burn. Continuing to push on amid mounting debt, crappy jobs and near-zero paid flying prospects will eventually land you in a very bad place, both mentally and financially.

I agree with the majority of the responses here. You should put the dream on hold temporarily and find other work. Focus on paying off debt and hopefully build up some savings. The kind of loan repayments you have are not insignificant, and being unable to repay them could make it very hard for you to obtain credit in the future. By all means maintain your contacts in the flying world and keep an eye out for opportunities, but accept that it might still take a few years to get the flying job you want, if indeed you still want it at that point.

Obtaining a commercial pilot's licence is not easy. It involves a great deal of responsibility, a cool head, quick (potentially life-or-death) decision making and an ability to understand and follow a myriad of complex procedures, rules and regulations. With a bit of luck and some savvy job interview skills, you can leverage this proven ability to obtain a job that is perhaps more rewarding than working in a call centre. I was lucky enough to find a management position which I love, and have since reevaluated my career priorities. I accept that I will probably never make use of my expensive CPL. It was a hard pill to swallow, but ultimately I am much happier for it. Nevertheless, getting a pilot's licence was incredibly fun and rewarding and I do not regret it one bit.

It's true that there are now thousands of pilots out of work, fresh graduates and experienced captains alike. Many of them in situations just as unfortunate as yours or worse. I don't think you deserve the negativity you've been receiving on this forum, though. You are doing the right thing by asking for advice and it's clear you're prepared to put the work in and make big sacrifices. Your timing has been horrible I'll admit, but that's through no fault of your own. I do believe that eventually there will be a sharp increase in the demand for travel, and therefore pilots. For example: until Delta screwed us over, Jetstar was forecasting domestic travel to exceed pre-covid levels as early as December 2021. Whether we somehow get Covid under control or simply learn to live with it, the need for travel will return.

Keep being resilient, look after yourself and eventually good things will come. Best of luck to you.

gulliBell

10th Sep 2021, 01:54

...The personal loans I need to start paying back at $830 a month. So I'll need to work in a call centre to start paying off loans for a career that will probably never happen.

Sounds like an excellent plan. Others here have also offered some very sound advice. Why you spent good money on 23 hours of C206 time - which is basically worthless - when you have so much debt seems very odd to me. If the call center is your calling be good at it, or whatever else you choose to do. But a flying job is way over the horizon and just not going to happen for you in the prevailing industry environment.

gulliBell

10th Sep 2021, 03:47

Unless China opens it's doors to its own people again...
Even then, China won't be soaking up many expatriate pilots. Their pilot training pipeline last year was in overdrive to the extent all the trainers were burning out. The pace of training has slackened off this year but they are still cranking out almost all the pilots they will need for the foreseeable future. Which means all the expat pilots who might otherwise have gone to China remain in the big pilot pool here, meaning there is very little progression through the local ranks to open up entry level positions for low hour CPL's.

logansi

10th Sep 2021, 05:14

China will have a secondary issue down the road, pre-2020 thousands of domestic cadets were going to Australia, America and Europe.

That has completely stopped. Domestic training is rising but still can't support the supply. I've trained many in Australia over years until covid ended that, and still stay in contact with a few of the good ones. They tell me that a massive number of those assigned to widebodies are now back doing 320/737 ratings. Initial type rating training for cadets has almost dropped by 75% at one of the major Chinese Airlines I was told because the last of the cadets they sent overseas (including Australia) returned in Jan this year.

Xeptu

10th Sep 2021, 05:43

Even then, China won't be soaking up many expatriate pilots. Their pilot training pipeline last year was in overdrive to the extent all the trainers were burning out. The pace of training has slackened off this year but they are still cranking out almost all the pilots they will need for the foreseeable future. Which means all the expat pilots who might otherwise have gone to China remain in the big pilot pool here, meaning there is very little progression through the local ranks to open up entry level positions for low hour CPL's.

That's not actually what I meant. I meant that if China doesn't open its doors to its own people and allow them to travel the world like what happened in 2000, which is what kicked off this unprecedented growth rate, that not even a GFC could slow down over the last 20 years. Unless China starts travelling again outside of China and the cruising industry is restored, then it follows that demand would be around 50% (a guess) what it was prior to 2020.

mikewil

10th Sep 2021, 06:42

returning to Melbourne and completed the FIR (last month). I've now topped up C206 time (total of 23 hours). I took out a personal loan for the instructor rating and finished it and was told nobody is being offered a job.

Just curious as to why you decided to do did the FIR in the current climate...

Did the flying school you did it at say there was a job for you at the end of it?

petra.oskertrich1995

10th Sep 2021, 10:04

Yeah I was told I would be offered some unpaid flying at the end to assess my suitability but then the lockdown came. They told me there was no chance and they would give work to their existing instructors so I am now in more debt with no job. I have read that flying schools are selling the dream and all of us students are getting roped into it.

gulliBell

10th Sep 2021, 12:00

Yeah I was told...
Well, there was your mistake. Don't trust anything you are told in this caper. Don't trust anything you get in writing either, but at least if you get something in writing you have half a leg to stand on. Rather than none. And above all else, if you get any offer for unpaid flying work, keep that to yourself because mentioning it here can never be good for your career. And keep in mind if you fly/work for free, chances are liabilities might be on your shoulders, and insurance might be non existent. The call center job seems the way to go. Much safer than flying and better paid.

morno

10th Sep 2021, 16:24

Yeah I was told I would be offered some unpaid flying at the end to assess my suitability

Yep, sorry, that’s the end of any sympathy.

Josh Cox

10th Sep 2021, 23:00

Hi Petra,

Don't listen to the misanthropes.

Young / new pilots have had a bit of bad luck entering the aviation industry during a global pandemic, but do not give up.

Use this time to put some money in the bank, increase your employability in preparation for the new normal (whatever that is going to look like). Obtain a bus licence, senior first aid, book keeping skills (MYOB / Xero), anything that will make you more employable to a GA Charter company than the next new pilot resume in the pile.

Whilst it is true that international travel is kaput at present and border closures etc are causing challenges, remember that a pilots first flying job is usually located in remote parts of Northern of Australia.

Try to book a caravan site or hotel room in Cairns, Kununurra or Broome,,,, you can't, they are all full.

The Aboriginal Communities are still busy, services and produce flying in and out.

So, why don't you have a flying job ?

You are not likely to be offered a job whilst you are sitting thousands of KMS away.

Pick a place where your first job is, move there, get a job picking fruit, pulling beers and/or some other job you can do. Submit your resume with local operators, become a part of the furniture and wait. Be very careful how you behave, these are small towns and stories of bad behaviour will spread very quickly. My first job was with an operator in Kununurra, the owner was a clever bloke, the final step before employment was the Friday afternoon BBQ, the prospective pilot would be fed full of full strength beers and the boss would sit back and see what emerged, it was quite breathtaking at times. One person got into an argument with the CP (who was a top bloke), another got totally wiped out then jumped into his/her car and drove back to town...

Above you have read about B777 Captains that are unemployed, you are not competing with these people for your first job. They are unlikely to be willing to work in the locations where these jobs are, for the money on offer. But most importantly when their B777 jobs restart, they will return to those jobs immediately (I sincerely hope this happens sooner rather than later), and the GA Charter operators know this.

Don't fly for free, ever.

Roj approved

11th Sep 2021, 00:05

^^^^^This is good advice.

Try to find a place that has some reasonable paid work, that will allow you to stay in the mind of the charter companies.

Kununurra, Mt Isa, Katherine, Alice, Kalgoorlie, Broome, and to a lesser extent, Cairns, Darwin

For example, I recently saw an add for baggage handler in Mt Isa, a great start and a good way to learn the area and who does what in aeroplanes.

mikewil

11th Sep 2021, 04:22

They told me there was no chance and they would give work to their existing instructors so I am now in more debt with no job.

If you could see that their existing instructors had been laid off, I'm not sure why you believed them when they told you they'd give you a job at the end of your rating.

I'd have thought it would seem pretty obvious that they would bring back their existing instructors before employing someone new.

outnabout

11th Sep 2021, 06:14

FYI:
Like any other educator, flying schools are in the business of training pilots.
Whether or not there is a job at the end of the training is not their problem.

petra.oskertrich1995

11th Sep 2021, 09:01

Yep, sorry, that’s the end of any sympathy.

Why? it's also on their website as 45 experience hours (non-paid)

petra.oskertrich1995

11th Sep 2021, 09:06

From a distance

11th Sep 2021, 09:20

Thanks for the tips everyone. I just got the job at Red Energy call centre and I will be pursuing this as my career for now. I will look into getting another loan for a helicopter PPL. This might help...

Petra you have been given lots of wonderful and considered advice. How is getting a helicopter PPL going to help in any shape or form. Why would you go in to further debt.

deja vu

11th Sep 2021, 09:32

petra.oskertrich1995 you do yourself no favours, I suspect this to be bogus, no one could be so unaware, could they?

FMS82

11th Sep 2021, 18:45

Good luck with the chopper license. Brilliant thinking (and trolling)

Capt Fathom

11th Sep 2021, 23:17

I've already spent time in Broome and Alice before returning to Melbourne and completed the FIR (last month). I've now topped up C206 time (total of 23 hours). I've also finished the JPA course

You’ve had a busy 6 months during these COVID times! So what was the feedback from the Operators you visited in Broome and Alice?

gulliBell

12th Sep 2021, 11:39

...I will look into getting another loan for a helicopter PPL. This might help...
What ever credibility and sympathy you might have had, that is well and truly evaporated now. Borrow even more money for a helicopter PPL. Utterly insane.

junior.VH-LFA

12th Sep 2021, 12:04

Absolutely top notch fishing - and so many bites!

Bosi72

12th Sep 2021, 12:07

Step 1: keep applying and don't give up. You are not competing against 10000+ hrs 777 pilots.
Once this is over, they will compete against themselves for a very limited number of seats. The rest positions will be filled with young people like yourself.
Step 2: go to Step 1.

Clare Prop

13th Sep 2021, 00:17

Great wind-up!

gulliBell

13th Sep 2021, 04:23

Great wind-up!
I'm not sure I understand. Is the suggestion the OP is punking the PPruNe community with the PPL-H brainwave?

CosmicVirgin

13th Sep 2021, 11:03

I just registerd myself on this foroum, cause I'm in the same situation, i've a lot of debts. I have no job after the PPL-H. I'm currently hestitating to be graduate of ATPL-A. What do you think about this ?Do you think it can improve my chances to find a job ?
My dream is to work for virgin altantic

gulliBell

13th Sep 2021, 13:48

...What do you think about this ?..

The call center is calling you. Put the aviation career on hold for the time being and find something else to do. You totally lost me with the PPL-H thing...

Slippery_Pete

14th Sep 2021, 05:22

This is why I loathe so many of my colleagues in aviation. A young person comes in here, despondent at lack of flying jobs, and the majority of responses just demonstrate how incredibly egotistical most pilots are. Why can’t you be adults and be supportive of someone, rather than using it to dig in the knife in over their choices and start your own pity party?

“Never mind you mate, imagine if you were already working in aviation!”

“You shouldn’t have borrowed money to learn to fly.”

”Here’s a song about crying tears.”

With so many self-centred, egotistical responses from Aussie pilots - it’s no surprise ‘89 happened.

Petra - it will be okay. Get other employment ASAP, get lots of hobbies and outside interests to keep your mind and body busy, but simultaneously keep beating on doors to get your first flying job. Life can’t be controlled, and things will happen when the universe wants them to - not on your schedule.

I finished my CPL and MECIR within weeks of September 11 and thought I’d never get a job as pilot. It didn’t take too long to find something, and then a few years later there was an incredible pilot shortage. Aviation is a feast and famine industry. We’re in famine at the moment, so feast is coming.

Capt Fathom

14th Sep 2021, 07:19

Post #67

Petra = CosmicVirgin. :}

3 Holer

14th Sep 2021, 08:00

Keep throwing that burley out, the fish are biting furiously !!!!

Mach E Avelli

14th Sep 2021, 09:52

havoste

14th Sep 2021, 10:15

I think it's safe to say the original poster is trolling- However the thread has served to bring out some really great advice that will be read by thousands of aspiring pilots, students, fresh CPLs in the future. I know when I started out, Pprune was helpful in removing my rose-tinted glasses and adopt a more realistic view on the industry that flight schools with an agenda just weren't providing.

petra.oskertrich1995

16th Sep 2021, 01:56

I will take the bait because I think she is probably simply young and scatterbrained. In this and her earlier threads she has has copped a few negative comments, but overall, people here have tried to offer some really sound advice - which she has TOTALLY ignored.
The main thrust of the good advice has been to get other qualifications in fields that would provide job opportunities, and not throw more money at aviation bolt-on bull**** ‘qualifications’ which won’t help land that first flying job. Even now, she says she is going to renew her Instrument Rating -despite being told 200 hour CPLs don’t get gigs flying IFR twins.Then she says she will blow more on a Helicopter PPL. She would be better off buying a bloody drone, which at least could develop skills far more likely to be in demand in the future.
OTOH Cosmic Virgin is a troll, though he/she meant Galactic, not Atlantic...

I only mentioned the Instrument renewal because I was told by an instructor that an employer likes to see a few renewals on my resume. I do not want to spend more money than what I have to of course and spent too much already with already too much debt. The helicopter licence is not something I want to do but I have read a few peoples responses here that say to get as many qualifications on the resume as possible to help get the first job. I was thinking helicopter or air traffic control apprenticeship. I am getting sick and tired of the insults to be honest. Okay so I am "scatterbrained" and I'm in my 20s and I don't know what I am doing so I come here to the forum and ask. Like I am sorry if this offends some people but I am only asking and please stop with all of the abusive & insulting personal messages.

I have read all of the advice and some people have given me some really good advice. I have been to the north and looked around and I plan on returning. I am only new around here but I sense a big bullying culture on here - like being at school as a new kid. A few people want to take it upon themselves to attack me or shame me with insults.

petra.oskertrich1995

16th Sep 2021, 01:59

The call center is calling you. Put the aviation career on hold for the time being and find something else to do. You totally lost me with the PPL-H thing...

No I of course don't want to spend any more money but I don't know what else to do to build my resume. I thought of helicopter and I saw recently air traffic controller traineeship on the Air Services website. I'm looking at all of my possible options.

Rug

16th Sep 2021, 02:46

There is no bullying culture on this site, Petra - in fact, the community will often pull up anyone who makes ad hominem posts against others.

However, if one asks for advice and then throws the time and good will others spent to dispense their hard-earned experience back in their faces, one should at the very least expect some negative feedback. Self-awareness and resilience are key to success in life.

On the off-chance you're not a troll, I'd advise looking at a flying career in the RAAF or Navy.

junior.VH-LFA

16th Sep 2021, 04:32

On the off-chance you're not a troll, I'd advise looking at a flying career in the RAAF or Navy.

:D:D:D

Can't get your civilian career to kick off? Just become an ADF pilot - it's that easy.

Petra, I think you should skip the PPL-H and just go all in on a CPL-H. Being dual hatted would be an asset to any business.

Climb150

16th Sep 2021, 04:41

I was in a very similar spot in 2008 when I got my CPL. It was just as the GFC hit and there were no jobs for a very long time. I didn't land my first GA job til 2010 and it was very tough to stay motivated.

I got offered a couple of "jobs" that were really work for free as you were paid per hour to fly (which was only 3 or 4 hours weekly) but the rest of the week you were expected to work in the office or hangar for no pay.

I kept my medical and IR current and would fly an hour a month (sometimes two) just to stay in practice. I didn't buy any 206 time or do an instructor rating. The persistence paid off but not before 3 people I trained with had already given up.

Avaitiaon is a marathon not a sprint so stop being in such a rush.

Rug

16th Sep 2021, 04:46

https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies2/eusa_clap.gifhttps://www.pprune.org/images/smilies2/eusa_clap.gifhttps://www.pprune.org/images/smilies2/eusa_clap.gif

Can't get your civilian career to kick off? Just become an ADF pilot - it's that easy.

Clearly wasn't the implication hence the use of the phrase "look into" and not "Just become". Quite familiar with the competitive level required to join the Pilot stream in the ADF, not sure why this would preclude it being suggested to anyone looking for career guidance.

deja vu

16th Sep 2021, 07:33

I see too many warning signs for any future employers.

gulliBell

16th Sep 2021, 11:55

Petra, I think you should skip the PPL-H and just go all in on a CPL-H....

Yep, the helicopter job market is heating up. Get the CPL-H, IR-MEH , S92 type rating and move to Perth and you'll be on the employment radar for a co-pilot job. They all start on about $100K/year + super for 28/28 with 42 days annual leave. Not a bad entry level gig for working 20 weeks per year with 32 weeks of paid field/tour/annual leave.

Capt Fathom

16th Sep 2021, 11:58

What is the relevance of a PPL-H in all of this?

gulliBell

16th Sep 2021, 12:04

^^she said, to build her resume^^ (post #76)

Mach E Avelli

17th Sep 2021, 08:30

I . Okay so I am "scatterbrained" and I'm in my 20s and I don't know what I am doing so I come here to the forum and ask. Like I am sorry if this offends some people but I am only asking and please stop with all of the abusive & insulting personal messages.

I have read all of the advice and some people have given me some really good advice. I have been to the north and looked around and I plan on returning. I am only new around here but I sense a big bullying culture on here - like being at school as a new kid. A few people want to take it upon themselves to attack me or shame me with insults.

Well Petra, I hope that you will set matters straight. You imply by quoting me that I have sent you abusive and insulting personal messages, when I have never messaged you, and would not be so stupid in this litigious age! Take note of what I am saying...
More free advice if you want to make it in aviation: Do not trot out the 'bullying' card every time you cop negative comment. Airline pilots get checked multiple times every year, and in particular, make mistakes in their early years. Most checks draw criticism - usually justified, sometimes not, but you'd be wise to suck it up and learn from it. You may not have had much criticism while you were spending your money down at your ever-so-friendly flying school; probably much praise and many gold stars to stick on the fridge for your good work.
Learn to sift genuine advice based on experience from advice by that same flying school or anyone else with an agenda. For example, what is the relevance of several IR renewals on your resume when you will NOT be considered for an IFR job at your level of experience? Why not save this for when you are in a flying job and better able to afford upgrading qualifications?
PS: I apologise for the ‘scatterbrained’ slur, if you see it as such. The way you have been throwing money at training contrary to good advice suggests ‘impetuous’ or ‘profligate’ is more appropriate.
PPS: I was being serious about drones - they are the future, but that’s a whole other subject...

Capt Fathom

17th Sep 2021, 11:18

Interestingly Petra says she has been ‘north’ to Broome and Alice and looked around. In a previous post I asked what feedback was received from these visits? But there has been no response.

Happy to ask people here what she should do, but not passing on any intel from her visits north. If indeed there has been a visit north?

Mach E Avelli

18th Sep 2021, 01:58

Melbourne to Broome? Que’ ?.

gulliBell

18th Sep 2021, 04:17

^^^obviously that didn't happen recently^^^

lucille

18th Sep 2021, 05:37

CPL+200 hours = CentreLink queue.

CPL+200 hours+lucky break = First Job.

Present job plus lucky break = Next job.

So what’s a “lucky break”?

In my case, never giving up the dream as I moved from one GA job to the next and then finally leaving Australia for 30 years as an expat.

But here’s a suggestion Petra, take up gliding - you’ll be able to keep your hand in with very cheap and satisfying flying, meet all kinds of people who may be in a position to advise/help you in the future and maybe as a bonus even score a bit of tow time.

All the while trying to reach out to future employers everywhere in Australia. Persistence, gentle good humoured persistence will eventually pay off. Eventually, the bottom of the pilot supply barrel will bottom out and you’ll get your lucky break as I and numerous others did. You’re not Robinson Crusoe. Just as you are now, we were all once the absolute bottom of the barrel.

Good Luck.

Nil bastardum carborundum.

( I’ve just received advice via a PM from a renowned Latin scholar and Ppruner…apparently the grammatically correct version is…. “Na illegitimus non Carborundum”)….. but to a redneck like me, “ bastardum” has more poetic ring to it.

ps.. never listen to career advice from flying schools or flying instructors… they have zero interest in your success. Your flying instructor’s single aim in life is building up his/her logbook hours, tootling aimlessly around the pattern and having you pay for it. This is his his/her idea of nirvana.

petra.oskertrich1995

18th Sep 2021, 06:32

Well Petra, I hope that you will set matters straight. You imply by quoting me that I have sent you abusive and insulting personal messages, when I have never messaged you, and would not be so stupid in this litigious age! Take note of what I am saying...
More free advice if you want to make it in aviation: Do not trot out the 'bullying' card every time you cop negative comment. Airline pilots get checked multiple times every year, and in particular, make mistakes in their early years. Most checks draw criticism - usually justified, sometimes not, but you'd be wise to suck it up and learn from it. You may not have had much criticism while you were spending your money down at your ever-so-friendly flying school; probably much praise and many gold stars to stick on the fridge for your good work.
Learn to sift genuine advice based on experience from advice by that same flying school or anyone else with an agenda. For example, what is the relevance of several IR renewals on your resume when you will NOT be considered for an IFR job at your level of experience? Why not save this for when you are in a flying job and better able to afford upgrading qualifications?
PS: I apologise for the ‘scatterbrained’ slur, if you see it as such. The way you have been throwing money at training contrary to good advice suggests ‘impetuous’ or ‘profligate’ is more appropriate.
PPS: I was being serious about drones - they are the future, but that’s a whole other subject...

I am sorry I didn't mean to say to you that it was personal attacks from you. It's not your account that is personal messaging me with insults and abuse. Thank you for trying to help.

gulliBell

19th Sep 2021, 01:37

A number of forum members have gone to some effort contributing to the pool of advice here, so keep us posted what you decide. The PPL-H idea is obviously ill-advised. You can throw money at this caper for years and not get any return on that investment, at some point you need to reassess your options and look at doing something else productive.

Possum1

19th Sep 2021, 04:26

I agree with all previous about getting a second well-paid job or qualification. One that hasn't been mentioned is school teaching(I think). I presume you have some sort of Bachelor of Science degree with your CPL. Schools are at the moment screaming out for STEM teachers. A qualification you would need here in Queensland is a Masters of Education(2 years) There are many deals to considerably shorten this to 15 months or less or to get you in front of a class being paid while you qualify. There are also scholarships, grants and subsidies that you may qualify for. You can then use your qualification at any location in the country while you look for a flying job.

If, in the future, you don't want to leave the big smoke, there is here in Brisbane, for example, a huge amount of casual relief/supply teaching work in primary schools because the full-time teachers are so exhausted and burnt out that they are taking their maximum sick days in order to survive to the end of another term. I am semi-retired. My wife and I do as much relief teaching as we need to keep our plane in the air etc. We mind another teacher's class for 5 hours at $83 an hour and go home at 2.45 - 3.00p.m. for a 5-6 hour day with $415 gross for a bit of chalk and talk. On Friday afternoons, we often drive straight to the airport, hop in our plane and fly off early to a weekend away. Think about it.

I am sure Kununurra Primary Schools need relief teachers, although you might find the school day a pretty wild ride!

deja vu

19th Sep 2021, 10:56

The important point to take away from this thread is it is time to stop loans to aviation aspirants for flying lessons and such. Until there is a turnaround and the prospects of employment return it is doing enormous harm to the pilot group and those poor souls stuck with an unrealistic debt.

Xeptu

19th Sep 2021, 12:44

I am sorry I didn't mean to say to you that it was personal attacks from you. It's not your account that is personal messaging me with insults and abuse. Thank you for trying to help.

Here's the thing mate, we are all pilots providing the advice you asked for, The problem is that we don't believe you're the real deal, what you are telling us is not consistent with our real world experience. I have my own view of what the true intention of this thread is .

And please stop sending job applications just because I'm an aircraft owner. I'm not about to let a 200 hour pilot loose in my KingAir. I don't hold an AOC and it's sole purpose is private operations within the company group. Anyone that flies my aircraft is a farmer first, at least a CPL and usually with Airline experience. If you don't know anything about 20.7.1b, don't waste your time. When I'm past my use by date I might need another one. Just sayin.

DUXNUTZ

20th Sep 2021, 08:00

Work in the call center for a year, keep current then apply to scenic/charter operators.

My first job was a lucky break. 280 odd hrs and the main question was about my experience in the Pizza Hut call centre during flying training.

Employers love a demonstration of hard work, determination and go getter-ness vs buying type ratings etc. Don’t get me wrong the C206/210 time will prob help when you are in the hiring queue in Kunners/Darwin.

Here’s a tip. You could always call up said operators and ask if they were looking for anyone to spend a year In Borroloola or some remote community in Arnhem Land in return for a leg up.