LGW BA lite

[Potatos_69]

Good afternoon!

Does anyone have any information on what’s happening with the LGW arm of BA with the votes etc yet?

Also what the T&C that was offered?

[Lordflasheart]

..According to Head for Points today - Headline - "Exclusive: British Airways could close Gatwick short-haul after BALPA pulls pilot ballot."

https://www.headforpoints.com/2021/09/18/british-airways-may-close-gatwick-short-haul/

We wondered why our tame BA bloke looked a bit glum in the pub last night.

...

[Whitemonk Returns]

Well done BALPA 👏

[MCT SET]

The sticking point was the protection clause linking contract agreements between pilots at LHR and LGW. BA rejected this showing the truth that BA wants to split the pilot group and a weaker workforce at LGW. Glad BALPA stopped this, let them pull out.

LGW is one of the most important airports in London and therefore the world, if BA pull out and sell there slots they will be purchased very quickly by a competitor, my presumption is that more of these slots will be purchased by the orange airline than the pink one. They raised 1.7 billion dollars in cash to strengthen there grasp in their fortress airports, they will do anything for those available slots.

COVID 19 is passing and things are looking better everyday, it’s better for BA to pull out and let the already better paying competitor take over than to divide and conquer the pilot group to push down terms and conditions permanently. At the end of the day these slots need to be flown by jets and those jets need pilots, especially now when those pilots need to be British nationals there is not the possibility of outsourcing cheaper labour on dubious contracts in foreign lands. BALPA knows this and made the right decision.

[wiggy]

. At the end of the day these slots need to be flown by jets and those jets need pilots, especially now when those pilots need to be British nationals ...

I agree this looks like a good call by BALPA but I’m not at all sure that observation about British nationals is correct.

[CW247]

Replace British nationals with "Those pilots that have a valid UK work permit which includes those non-British nationals with settled status prior to 31st December. However, does not include Europeans (and other nationalities) seeking work in the UK for the first time. Unless they apply for a work permit which will not be possible in any industry for which there is no shortage of qualified professionals". A bit of a mouthful, but can't be put into a simple word or phrase unfortunately.

[wiggy]

CW247
:ok:
A lot of devil in that particular bit of detail…but it is certainly not a case of jobs for British nationals only.

[Max Angle]

My guess is that this will run on for a bit now, BA could quite easily decide to go ahead with another company and simply crew the flying side of it with temporary secondments from LHR, if the terms are right there will be plenty of takers from those who were based there before covid. The annual savings of the pilot contract vs what was in place at LGW before was apparently only 2 million so chicken feed in the grand scheme. I can't see them pulling out completely.

[sudden twang]

So BA pull out of LGW take my job away sending me to LHR/CRS/PRP and now want me to temporarily go back to LGW whilst they ( possibly I) train up my replacement.
Not very tempting.

[Dave Gittins]

Pardon my ignorance but does BA - Lite just cover the Airbuses that aren't flying from Gatwick or does it include the Long haul 777s as well ?

[sudden twang]

Just short haul

[Mister Geezer]

Playing devils advocate here, but if the unions and BA don't see eye to eye, doesn't that pave the way for BA to end their short haul operation out of LGW? I can't imagine IAG would be willing to surrender slots and see them fall into the hands of easyJet and especially Wizz, so if things end in stalemate, what are the odds of a new operator being established to take over the network and crews being TUPE'd across? LEVEL perhaps?

[lostinspace89]

Think thats exactly the point. For once its good to see Balpa stand their ground. I wish the Balpa reps for the other airlines did the same, showed a bit of teeth, rather than always give in and then praise themselves for not sure what really.

Stand your ground and don’t let BA into gatwick, that will be a K.O espec with long haul restrictions more fragile than short haul!

[Mister Geezer]

Would a stalemate with the unions potentially add yet more pilots to the current surplus caused by the pandemic, should BA elect to permanently end their short-haul operation at LGW?

Could it be a case of the lesser of two evils here? BA operates a much leaner short-haul operation at LGW with inferior terms for crew or BA close their branded short-haul operation at LGW permanently. The cynic within me suspects BA has tactically chosen now as the time to announce their LGW plans. Allow the dust to settle from the initial shock from the pandemic and try to steamroll this proposal through and at a time when BALPA doesn't have much leverage to exploit at the negotiating table.

[OutsideCAS]

It's not just BA (Lite). All Airlines in general speak are seeking to do as such. I would suggest this not to be an unusual thing, its business - just as flight crew all leaving said companies for better offers when things improve is just business.

[lostinspace89]

Mister Geezer

Balpa keep saying there is no leverage, however I think this is the perfect leverage. And once they allow BA to get away with this you can be sure others will do the same as it creates precedent. I think Balpa have more leverage as it would be surprising to see BA let go of LGW and give way to losing their slots at a time when things are picking up for short haul (and likely long haul with US in Nov and AUS in Dec)

[Dave Gittins]

If BA do elect to terminate shorthaul at LGW, will they (whenever life gets back to "normal" maybe next summer) have enough slots at LHR to grow the European business back to the size it was ? Or is this a Machiavellian move to get rid of the old BCal once and for all and put a different IAG carrier based at LGW ?

If BA Lite doesn't include the longhaul they will effectively be running two airlines at LGW anyway.

[MCT SET]

Mister Geezer

would the pilots in LHR and in the pool allow them to do that. Remember they have the crew for this operation already, to start a new airline with new crew would seriously anger the pilot group especially I would be if I were in their position and possibly lead to strikes. Bringing in a new brand for LGW is the same as outsourcing and would be a serious case for industrial action.

In my opinion BA pilot group and BALPA should hold out. We are talking about LGW here one of the most in demand markets in the world their is money to be made in this market. Their is a reason why Wizz and easy are banging on the door to get in the market and BA know this they don’t want to lose their position their. They say the have been loss making at LGW for 20 years which is hard to believe but if it’s true than why would they stick around there for that long if they don’t see the value in the market space.

[FGE319]

CW247

Pilots are on the Tier 2 skilled list, as long as earning over £60k-ish for a 39 hour week (it comes out to around £30/hour).

I would assume that EU crew in the UK would include experienced First Officers at the bulk of airlines, so no need to be British.

There are (more limited) opportunities in the other direction too, although due to Ryanair's conditions, not with FR.

[Kakpipe Cosmonaut]

Time to blame those pesky pilots.

British Airways scraps plans to reintroduce short-haul flights from Gatwick post-COVID
http://news.sky.com/story/british-airways-scraps-plans-to-reintroduce-short-haul-flights-from-gatwick-post-covid-12415115

[A320LGW]

It's a pity the BALPA Ryanair counsel couldn't display the same resolve, their capitulation has had ramifications all over

[Twiglet1]

lostinspace89

"Other Airlines" - are there many AOC's left in the UK? Sadly after CV19 with the exception of DHL Air perhaps, BALPA are going to struggle to have any leeway

[chocolateracer]

IAG to buy EasyJet UK.

[speed13ird]

A320LGW

Are BALPA helping Ryanair with their PTSD or somesuch?

[aviationvictim]

If Ezy Uk was a separate company from the rest it could be possible. But it’s not so pretty unlikely. But who knows these days? Would be better than Wizz!

[calypso]

why would IAG buy just the UK part?. I am sure they would be more than happy to buy the lot at the right price.

[Mister Geezer]

Forgive me if I am missing something here but I am struggling to see why people are rejoicing at BALPA turning their backs on BA. At the end of the day, smaller airlines need less staff. Perhaps it's a game of brinkmanship at play here, which the union and its members are prepared for. However, if this is not the case, then I struggle to see that there is anything worth getting excited about a significantly smaller BA and at a time when there are hundreds of BA pilots who have either been made redundant or who are on unpaid leave that is being subsidised by their colleagues.

[the_stranger]

While I do not know the exact details of this story, sometimes it is better to take a hit on the number of jobs than to accept constant reduction in pay just to keep jobs.

Again, not all the details, so there might be even more valid reasons to say no, but a erosion of T&E hits all pilots and sometimes it is better to take the job löss.

[lostinspace89]

I think the point was that BA basically wanted the right to do whatever they wanted to the LGW BA contracts without the need to consult Balpa. What’s the point of separating a workforce and then eroding the conditions as they like when they like?. We’ve already seen them do this at easyjet where because Balpa gave way there are people with loads of different contracts (instead of having everyone reduce like most uk airlines did) and Ez not having any intention of bringing anyone back to original contracts but instead introduce UBer like temp contracts when they need more pilots , hopefully this wont be allowed but depends on Balpa to show some strength. It ends up creating resentment against colleagues and the union. The clue is in the title: Union

[hunterboy]

I think competition between airlines can only improve pilot salaries especially if there is a shortage. What BALPA needs to do now is a concerted campaign to keep British jobs for UK licence holders like EASA/FAA jurisdictions seem to.

[Jonnyknoxville]

All you need to do is look at the state of Iberia to get and idea of what IAG want to do with BA , a leopard doesn’t change his spots . Iberia SH and LH has been farmed out to several parts of the “group” , LGW Lite is only the tip of the iceberg and would set a dangerous precedent. Well done to BALPA on this occasion

[Busdriver01]

I think it's a mighty good thing to have said 'enough is enough'. The viability of an LGW BA base would categorically not boil down to whether the flight crew was paid the same as their LHR colleagues - the command salary was broadly similar to the old Gatwick numbers, so it was really only the FO scales that were not up to scratch. A grand total saving of not much more than £1m/yr in wages. All after offering a scheduling agreement significantly more fatiguing (read: far more hours per year) than the LHR offer. More could be saved through the increased use of single-engine taxi procedures.

As others have said, sometimes, simply getting as many jobs as possible isn't the right answer.

[Flying Clog]

Indeed, well done BALPA, and you should all be proud. It'll never catch on in many parts of the world, but at least you've kicked the fools in BA management into touch for the time being. We all know what these crafty buggers would really like, and indeed, we see it at Iberia and elsewhere. They just can't help themselves.

[pax britanica]

Speaking as a passenegr/customer I have a couple of questions

1 At what point does British Airways stop becoming British

2 At what point is BA 2021 so different from its predecessors that it is just trading on the brand name without the service and operational competence the brand was built .

Some thing that seems common in todays business world is to rely entirely on an established brand while weakening the product to save costs , Before long people do notice this and they dont like it and the much vaunted Brand is devalued to the point it becomes almost a liability. I though BA had learned their lesson from 20 years ago when they cabin crewed the LGW long haul leisure routes with agency/outsourced staff.-who were very clealry not BA.

In the wider world Waitrose v Lidl is a good example , 20 years ago if you bought your food from Waitrose Lidl was just some upstart , but lots of people found out that in many areas Waitrose charged premium prices for products that were no better than Lidl ones ( some obviously are still better quality of course ) . While it has not put Waitrose out of business it has badly hurt them, they are cutting back while LIDL and their German cousin Aldi keep expanding. .

I thought the new BA CEO ) was keen on restoring BA s values, but from reading this thread that too seems to smoke and mirrors.. , Cruz was basically a disaster from a branding and service view point, ( For which Walsh should have got sacked for employing him) . Either way good luck to the BA staff caught in the middle of all this

[stormin norman]

Another own goal by Balpa. Easyjet will just expand further into the BA market.
The bid line Barons are still running the show.

[MCDU2]

So who is going to do the BA short haul work ex LGW - Iberia, Vueling, EI or BA?

[UAV689]

A320LGW

Perhaps a little unfair. The Ryr council and union is still very young, it was the first time they went through such a process and ryr had in effect started the redundancy process on over 340 jobs.

Now seeing how ryr are totally taking the mick out the agreement I think should this happen again, it maybe wiser to let the company lay people off in order to not get another haircut.

Otherwise the ramifications industry wide are just too great.

[a5in_the_sim]

RudderTrimZero

He isn’t running the show!

[lostinspace89]

Lets Hope Balpa stood their ground and do not give in to diminishing terms or different contracts to those that LHR. Would just set precedent. I doubt BA would ever give way those slots at lgw.

[Busdriver01]

new offer from BA with a ballot to commence shortly.

[Serenity]

Is the offer any better really than the first one?

[Busdriver01]

From what I hear the money is basically the same but the split between Basic:variable has been improved ie higher basic pay

[lostinspace89]

Have Balpa agreed to the new terms? Hope they’re better and not worse than LHR terms

[Serenity]

Do the cabin crew get a vote through their union and does that have to be approved also for it to work?

[Lordflasheart]

...
It looks like BALOCOLGW is back on ....

https://www.cityam.com/pilots-give-british-airways-the-green-light-on-restarting-of-gatwick-operations/

[Dingleberry Handpump]

Predictably weak and self-serving from BALPA-on-high. A massive about-turn.

So, what’s the offer?

[kendrick47247]

Haha, so quick to comment but then completely unaware of the facts? 🤦

[AdrianShaftsworthy]

The way this is going the Cabin Crew will be paid more than the pilots!

[hunterboy]

No change there then

[Dingleberry Handpump]

kendrick47247

So, am I warm?

Media would suggest so.

I’d relish a change in SOP from BALPA, but I’ll believe it when I see it.

[Shaman]

Dingleberry Handpump

You are talking nonsense.

The BA company council section of BALPA has been engaged in discussions with BA, not BALPA.

The BACC has secured modest improvements and reballoted BA's pilots. BA's BALPA pilots overwhelmingly voted in favour of the new operation at LGW. They did so to ensure that BA branded work from LGW was performed by BA pilots on the Master Seniority List with this work open to those BA pilots who BA had "let go" over a year ago. You would be surprised at the huge number of LHR pilots who were concerned at the plight of those former BA pilots who were now unemployed and who voted in favour to offer them the opportunity to return to BA work

BA's LGW pilots will be on different T&Cs to those at LHR as has been the case for many years. It could be argued that these LGW pilots will be working harder than those based at LHR and therefore should be paid MORE than LHR pilots but airline life is not like that - a unit's income determines what expenditure can be afforded and not who works hardest.

Once the "let go pilots' have been absorbed into LGW or LHR, recruitment to LGW will be open to all; successful candidates will then join the BA MSL. If the BACC had not secured an agreement acceptable to both BA and BA's BALPA members then the LGW work would have been lost for ever to BA pilots and the slots would have been used - probably by Vueling - or sold to probably Wizz.

IMO, the BACC have done well in the negotiations but I expect the BALPA knockers to think otherwise.

[kendrick47247]

Spot on, Shaman. Great post.

Someone actually in the know rather than the idiotic “shoot first, ask questions later” 🙄

[cycles gladiator]

Shaman

Good post. Thank you.

[Dingleberry Handpump]

Yes, so do enlighten us, how does the new and improved agreement compare to 2019?

[BAreject]

Ah, BACC my heroes. Orchestrated the deal to get us out the door and now claiming the glory for bringing us back on £20k a year less.

And my former BA colleagues - "concerned at our plight". Shame they weren't that concerned 12 months ago. Especially the captains getting demoted and keeping their full captain pay. Or the technically redundant 747 brigade getting their 66.6% pay and then getting other jobs flying cargo. Or the 63 year olds receiving full pensions and opting to take 787 type ratings. Or the spineless BACC in their attempts to get us on the JRS. What about the "787/350" pilots in the door for 5 minutes keeping their jobs.

This is the opportunity a lot have been waiting for but please don't dress this lot up in unwarranted glory.

Don't get me wrong. A lot of very good eggs in BA but don't give me the **** that this is being done for the sake of the PRP.

[skaterboi]

BAreject, as a fully paid up member of the PRP, I share your anger and frustration and I’m as pissed off about the whole situation now as I was a year ago.

That said, your anger towards all our former BA pilot colleagues is misplaced. With such a large group of people, you can’t generalise and say all of them didn’t care, the fact is the vast majority did and the selfish behaviour you’ve cited was in a small minority. I don’t agree with it either but it’s a fact of life that some people will just look out for themselves. Plenty of pilots wanted to make the CR numbers zero and would have done almost anything to achieve that.

The fact is, the BACCs hands were tied and BA wanted to make a point to all departments that no one was safe and so, a few of us pilots lost our jobs. It was politics, plain and simple and a possible fallout of the 2019 strikes. The various mechanisms BA used in order to make some CR happen doesn’t matter now, it was always inevitable once the management has decided as such.

You also can’t moan about the CRS being on 66% pay and getting cargo jobs. The CRS was funded from the existing pilot’s pay and is nothing to do with us in the PRP or BA for that matter. I will concede the 787/350 pilot thing was a real kick in the balls but again BA decided to save them, not the BACC at the expense of people further up the MSL.

FWIW, I think the LGW newco thing is both good and bad. It’s gets people out of the CRS and PRP in the short term but may well erode T&Cs in the long term. You may or may not agree with that, but don’t tar all our former pilot colleagues with the same callous brush because it’s not true.

[BAreject]

You're mistaken in your analysis of my post.

[lostinspace89]

not sure how well this goes down with the BA, Easy and Ryr guys from Balpa…pilot shortage?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/10/09/airlines-could-grounded-pilot-shortage-hundreds-retire-change/

[MCT SET]

nothing but the media trying to create chaos again but using the word shortage in another field given the recent events in the U.K. Hopefully people start panic buying holidays.

[FL370 Officeboy]

BAreject

What do you think should have happened?

[balpareject]

Professional trade union negotiators? (The budget should just about cover it)

an open and honest consultation, with representatives that represent the community as a whole not just the interests of PP24 old boys club (hence the term representative)

A deal whereby the ‘union’ of pilots negotiate a fair deal rather than sending the 249 most vulnerable members of the ‘community’ off to the slaughter with no aid in a bid to protect the precious ‘T&C’s’ ?

When the chair steps down after a revelation of misconduct during negotiations by company representatives, this would normally be rather telling. But the narrative enables a convenient sweeping under the carpet..

I could go on.

[FL370 Officeboy]

What would you have considered a 'fair' deal? afaik BA insisted on statutory redundancy packages for ALL staff despite BALPA wanting to improve the package. Are you suggesting that the selection process which was based on the agreements that ~4000 pilots had worked to their whole careers should not have been respected?

That's not why the chair stepped down though is it? I assume you read his resignation letter. Wasn't said chair a PP34 FO too which isn't exactly the PP24 capts old boys club.

I really really hope you get back flying asap and hopefully when the anger subsides can have a long and fulfilling career in BA. But CV19 has been the biggest sh@tshow we've ever ever seen in aviation and it's sad that it caused the first CR pilots in BA. Would anything have avoided this though I'm not convinced. Thankfully we can see green shoots and I truly hope this results in better outlook for you

[Busdriver01]

Lots of airlines in financially worse situations managed to avoid pilot CR though didn’t they? If balpa had stood fast with part time, or simply a temporary pay cut for all, to cover the costs of the surplus, there would have been no CR. (I’m told those at the top repeatedly said “if you have any ideas which may save jobs let us know” and then when such suggestions were offered simply said “oh no we can’t do that” )

[wiggy]

Don’t forget they (BA BALPA) had not long come out of a strike in not particularly great shape so what form do you suggest this “standing fast” should have taken?

As I recall things it appeared that BA were utterly and absolutely intent on CR for at least some of the pilot force…TBH I think BALPA did reasonably OK in the circumstances, though I’m still a bit :hmm: about the way things were handled on some fleets.

[balpareject]

FL370 Officeboy

ithe implication that the 249 had *not* been working for their careers?

the agreement wasn't adhered to though, was it? not going into specifics, but many aspects which would have helped members of the 249 were not honoured...

the said chair was also ex BACF and on the 747 a technically redundant fleet, no? Gosh wasn't it lucky he/she wasn't caught out in the number of redundant pilots

don't get me wrong, the chair seemed like a decent person, but there's no doubt is all very strange.

Do you think had PP24 not been offered in exchange for 0 CR ba wouldn't have sniffed?

If you were party to negotiations and you can insist they were completely fair and transparent and everything was done to prevent CR, well ill take back what I said but until then I remain dubious...

whatever helps everyone sleep at night though.

[BAreject]

I knew he was 747, I didn't realise he was ex Cityflyer.

How many times have I heard this rubbish "BA were intent on making CR". Great, how macho did they look getting rid of the 249 most junior, vulnerable pilots. So, the BACC couldn't do anything about it? The same BACC that have just supposedly almost averted BA from attempting a return to LGW.

So, after the huge need to make CR, those CR recipients (recipients of £ zero) are on the verge of returning on a big pay cut. Who could have seen that coming?!

I saw an internal memo recently saying how the Chief Exec was determined to do the right thing by their staff. If only they had that attitude a year ago.

[DS1]

Well said. Those 249 future pilots were treated appallingly to save those sitting comfortably waiting for a seat after 747 was dismantled. And keeping on those that had been in for 5 mins to what end? 787/350? The precious seniority working for whom?

[Shaman]

BAreject

You are under no obligation to return. You could reject the offer of a job at LGW and wait to see if one becomes available at LHR.

If it was not for the BACC's efforts, there would not be any opportunities for you at LGW - they would have been lost to BA pilots for ever.

If you don't want to go to LGW, there will be many who will be happy to take your place and many others who would do it for free. Count yourself lucky to have the option.

[balpareject]

Surely if PRP members had wished to work at Gatwick (easyjet's main base) for an easyjet salary, on airbus A320's, they would have joined easyjet? Or in the case for a good portion of the PRP, not left easy in the first place?

Otherwise, brilliant work from balpa, negitoating easyJet T&C to fly for BA, excellent deal, for the company at least...

[king surf]

DS1

I just hope those pilots who have no intention of returning to work can live with their decision.
Did not someone come off the 747, then got a 787 course and then did a handful of trips, then retired?

[HEJT2015]

Yes, he did.

[Serenity]

negitoating easyJet T&C to fly for BA, excellent deal, for the company at least...

I think you’ll find EasyJet t&c are a lot better than you think, hence why more and more turned down BA job offers as EasyJet was a better place to be.

thye didn’t make anyone redundant (only voluntary)

[aviationvictim]

except for half of the German workforce. But sure, none in the U.K. in return for PT for everyone.

[balpareject]

somewhat proves my point, balpa offering PRP pilots less than easyjet T&C nice

[student88]

I'm pretty sure easyJet made a lot of pilots redundant in Germany.

[king surf]

HEJT2015

Thus denying a young pilot with his career ahead of him and eye watering debt, and no prospect of a job short term.
I know everyone's circumstances are different but you would like to thing that someone on pp24 which is £180,000+ plus a pension that we all dream about, would have thought it was now time to throw the towel in and give someone else a go.
Believe me this has caused a lot of anger amongst the new FO's in the company who knew a lot of the people who were let go.

[wiggy]

..and in the interests of fairness/completeness can I point out that a fair number in those circumstances did indeed throw the towel in…

Hopefully that at least avoided some CR.

[Nick 1]

https://www.latestpilotjobs.com/jobs/view/id/16821.html

Is this related ?

[3Greens]

balpareject

I’m sure you understand that it’s BA offering the terms and conditions, and not Balpa? It’s not a great deal, granted, but do you think Balpa event to BA and said “hey let’s pay newco pilots £xxx”?

[Busdriver01]

Not explicitly, but when balpa knew about newco before any CR had taken place, by allowing CR (read: ‘fire and rehire’) they may as well have said that. They could’ve pushed for furlough right up until a few days ago, and then a pay cut until newco is up and running.

[king surf]

Agreed Wiggy,
met a retired 777 skip in Antiparos who took the money and said that he has not looked back.
A lot don't realise there IS life after BA!!

[Wodka]

The CR was political because of all the other areas of the business also letting people go.

[3Greens]

Busdriver01

I don’t understand any of this.

[Busdriver01]

Ha, sorry, I’ll try and rephrase.

balpa was told by BA about the plans for newco before any CR had been made. Ie they were told that contrary to the rhetoric BA was putting out, they did in fact see a fairly immediate need for pilots at gatwick. To then allow CR, knowing full well those pilots would be needed, when other zero cost measures were available for the interim period, is shambolic in my opinion and amounts to fire and rehire. In my opinion, by doing so, they essentially did say to BA “yeah go on then, sack the junior lot, save the 747 lot and make a worse contract at gatwick in less than a years time”

[FL370 Officeboy]

I think you’re letting your imagination run away a bit there

[Busdriver01]

Serious question, how so? That is exactly what happened, and the government made a scheme to cover the wage bill of those who would be needed after the pandemic but not during, which is exactly what we’re seeing is the case for those CR pilots. Please, do explain how my imagination is running away with that because I truly don’t see it.

edit to add: I truly don’t see how they could be aware of newco plans, know they were going to enforce the scope agreement, know that the furlough scheme was available to use, and still allow BA to make any redundancies until at least the end of the furlough scheme. That was not protecting the 250 odd fully paying members who got made redundant.

[HEJT2015]

Busdriver01

This, 100%. Nicely sums up how those, who don’t wear balpa tinted glasses, feel.

[Shaman]

Source please? First I have heard of it.

[P1969]

Good luck to you all at BA, particularly those who are getting the opportunity to return to the skies at long last.
I left last year after 15 amazing years on the triple, partly due to mental health issues, so when BA offered VR, I declined the offer of entering any of the pools and fell on my sword! Part of my reasoning for doing so, a small part admittedly, was that at the age of 50 it would be better to let a younger person have the chance of the great career that I had than for me to cling on. I’d had enough of the sleep deprivation too.
There were about 4500 pilots on the MSL when I left. In a group of diverse people of that size, some will be selfish, some will not. In my experience, the vast majority were good eggs who were far from selfish.
As an aside, for anybody dithering about retiring, if personal circumstances allow of course, I would recommend it. I am significantly poorer financially than I was whilst flying, but much, much richer in other ways and my mental health is A1 again. Do I miss trying to sleep in the oily, smelly high vis jacket at 30W? Nah!
Best to all.

[JliderPilot]

P1969, well said. I hope to going that way in a couple of years myself. If you miss the flying at all, then try locking yourself in the stair cupboard in the dark with the hoover running 😉

[Busdriver01]

A member of the BACC said it on one of the webinars. Happy to be corrected if that was bad info but I don't know why they'd have said it otherwise.

[FL370 Officeboy]

Can you provide a bit more than this? Respectfully, what you may have heard or wanted to hear could easily be framed as confirmation bias when compared against the tone of your other posts which to be frank are basically loaded with conspiracy theories.

[Jwscud]

Now advertising for DECs (https://careers.ba.com/job/gatwick/lgw-short-haul-direct-entry-captain/22348/18205335872)

Intrigued to see how this plays out!

[Tail-take-off]

https://careers.ba.com/job/gatwick/lgw-short-haul-direct-entry-captain/22348/18205335872

[wiggy]

Jwscud

Indeed……be interesting to still be a fly on the wall on one of the BALPA forums…..

[Icanseeclearly]

I can only assume there were not enough internal valid bids in this years PRIAM to fill the vacancies..

We were told only weeks ago that the 320 fleet was in surplus, this disappeared when NEWCO was approved, if no one wants to move to LGW this surplus must still be there, I wonder how that’s going to be resolved now the CRS folk are being welcomed back.

Interesting times ahead me thinks..

[3Greens]

wiggy

if only there was a way to pay a subscription and gain access eh?

[BAreject]

What? So you can spend your time reading about self entitled moaners (small minority of serial posters) with nothing better to do than bang on about how this, that and the other will mean 50p less a year in their pension. No thanks.

Anyway, this proposal for DEC. Yet another hammer blow for the 249 made compulsory redundant for JM's ego trip. I'm sure Sean Doyle has his number marked now, anyway. How on earth he obtained the role in the first place is beyond me - you only have to listen to his negativity for 5 minutes to ask yourself why. Interesting that the negative rhetoric from 2020 is now coming back to bite him hard, with the cancellation of services due to lack of crew and equipment.

[wiggy]

3Greens
:)
Did consider it but TBH time moves on and reading about how bidding is working out or what the latest gripe is about crew security screening moved down the list of priorities..

[MonarchOrBust]

Is the recruitment process going to be aligned with that of mainline or CityFlyer?

[CASBO]

Can someone post T&Cs?

Do I have to wear a hat?

[Jwscud]

MonarchOrBust

I would expect it to be mainline as these are positions on the main BA seniority list.

[MonarchOrBust]

Oh joy. Don't think I have the will or ability to go through the BA aptitudes anymore. :{

[SkyRocket10]

Year 1 Basic £73048
Flying Pay £30ph
Subsidence Hourly rate £2.50

The £105,000 quoted is based on 800hours plus I believe, but whether that’s achievable is questionable

The scheduling agreement is another story, and the main reason I would guess that very few, if any LHR pilots have applied for the positions.

Engagement freeze at Gatwick is 6yrs and all redundant pilots that return to a CPT/FO position at LGW will be senior to any DEC that is recruited. It will likely be a long wait for any transfer.

[eagle21]

Jwscud

Have mainline ever recruited DECs? Will recruitment First Officers take part in this campaign?

Would 20 years for a Long Haul command be realistic?

[Northern Monkey]

It is unsurprising they have immediately had to resort to DEC's. The offer will be unappealing to most currently employed pilots given the rostering/pay/freeze issues.

The more interesting question is whether they will get enough external applicants, given that you must now have the right to live and work in the UK on top of being a currently operating captain with A320 experience (does this mean you have to be currently operating the A320 as a captain? There is your example of ambiguity for when they ask you at selection - you're welcome). Oh and as skyrocket says, you get a 6 year freeze at Gatwick. I would suggest the group of people who meet all these requirements and can be enticed by the current offer will not be large. Smaller still once the recruitment process has taken its toll.

[RJ100]

The revised pay after the initial rejection is now:
Year 1 Basic £81849
Flying Pay £20 B/H
Subsistence remains the same at £2.50 D/H

[MonarchOrBust]

Northern Monkey is spot on about the availability of A320 current skippers with the correct license and employment rights. I wonder if this is one reason for the ad not publishing minimum hour requirements? The more senior A320 guys with hours galore are unlikely to be unemployed right now.

[Jonnyknoxville]

Don't know if its an oversight by BA , but if you check the job requirements on the PDF when you enter the recruitment portal ,there is no mention of A320 experience being required .

[kendrick47247]

I doubt the recruitment team would look too favourably on candidates that don’t have it, based on the job description stating a requirement for A320 command experience and a current TR

[Tebbit]

The pay packet of 20 years ago.

[Potatos_69]

How bad is the rostering? The only 320 skippers I can imagine taking it would be from a certain pink airline wanting to be based close to home in Gatwick as conditions are probably similar but with better perks possibly from BA... Due to no slots I assume pink wont get the expansion they dream of there for a long time to come...

[MonarchOrBust]

How come there's no FO recruitment at the same time?

[SkyRocket10]

All FO recruitment will come from the prp (redundant BA pilots)/ previous hold pool

[HEJT2015]

There’s still 249 of us patiently waiting..

[midnight cruiser]

I'm not sure it's the tests that will deter ... so much as the low pay and LGW. All the locos on a full contract, pay far more than that for 800 hours, and offer nice rural provincial bases if you want them . And I see the seniority list is being vaunted as a "perk" - oh the irony, and another example of how seniority list suppresses pay.

[RexBanner]

The reality of anyone joining for the supposed perk of the BA MSL has to fully understood. Yes technically you will be on the Master Seniority List however you will join with a six year engagement freeze at LGW, do NOT expect to move quickly at the end of that freeze as LGW has been historically difficult for BA to crew, pilots have very often been held back at the end of their freeze because the company physically couldn’t fill the seats with replacements. This problem will be even worse now given how unattractive BA have made the new LGW. Six years could very easily turn into something more resembling ten; a very long time to spend on what is a deeply unsatisfactory level of pay and with fatigue inducing rosters just for a carrot that will be visible but always taken just out of reach.

[Dragon Baron]

Where has the job advert gone? Its no longer listed.

[SkyRocket10]

Dragon Baron

Put up in error before internal bids had been processed, and more importantly before any expressions of interest from redundant pilots, or hold pool candidates were obtained 🙄

This may change the requirement to few, or none

[MonarchOrBust]

The ad was shared by BA pilots (linked to recruitment) on LinkedIn. It gave the impression it was legit. Clearly not an admin error.

[BAreject]

BA forgot that they have 357 shafted people to prioritise first. If you ask me, it was just another move in order to further irritate the BACC and create even worst relations.

[deltahotel]

It’s on latest jobs:

https://www.latestpilotjobs.com/jobs/view/id/16587.html

[SW1]

Its back on their website

[Dave]

eagle21

No........

Think LONGER........

Also, how very interesting that BA have a surplus of 320 crew at LHR, but because the terms are so rubbish at LGW they will now recruit externally to fill those roles (if anyone is daft enough to leave Easy etc to lower their salary with BA - remember this is BA that HAS made pilots redundant, an presumably will again should the need arise).

So we have BA with (say) 700x 320 pilots at LHR, but only needs (say) 600, and has a need for (say) 150x pilots at LGW.... but rather than offer reasonable terms so 100 transfer from LHR to LGW, BA would rather recruit (or try to recruit) 150 more pilots.... thereby they now have 850x Airbus pilots when they only really need 750! Clever (not).

Any another thing..... no inflationary pay rises until AT LEAST January 2024 (and that is only the ~4% that was promised in January 2021 (thereby hopefully taking us back to ~100% of January 2020 pay - remember even after CRS finishes we will still have the ~4% long term reduction)). This is NOT a clever position to be in as RPI inflation was just announced to be 6% and climbing.... 4 years of 6% is.... urmmmmm..... 26.2%..... thats 26.2% DOWN on purchasing power... SUPER :(

[RexBanner]

BAreject

Anecdotally (no experience of him yet myself) AK is hopeless. Never assume conspiracy when simple incompetence will suffice.

[Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP]

Friendly Low Fares will be the way forward. Basic pay is streets ahead of this. Captains should be grossing around £125K with sector pay/allowances. Pension contribution of 10% and probably about to start hiring for the expanding Airbus fleet.

[manflexsrsrwy]

any information floating about regarding the kind of assessments they're going to have ? Also how many bodies they're looking at hiring ? asking for a friend

[Whitemonk Returns]

Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP

Plus profit share once we get past Covid Captains would have been looking at almost an extra 20k on top of your figures in 2020 had the dastardly virus not emerged...

Not to mention when they inevitably open a LGW base and fill it with 321s you will have the reality of BA pilots looking across the apron at Jet2 pilots flying the same airplanes 50% less annually and earning 20 - 30% more than them. Crazy times.

[flyingtrain]

Do we think they will soon go down the route of hiring cadets for FO positions in a MOL style contract?

[HEJT2015]

I hope that’s not what you’re asking for..

[CW247]

BA to rehire 4000 in post Covid splurge.

If they're expecting to hire all on terms that are below or even at pre Covid rates, they're in for a nasty shock. The price of everything is up. People are no longer stupid. Everyone is demanding more. My friends working in Tech are seeing rises of 30-50% Builders are doubling everything and those who worked in hospitality are realising they can make 2-3x more working as pickers at Amazon.

BA's overzealous chopping was false economy. Complete and utter failure of executive greed facilitated by unwise and foolish bean counters.

[ZFT]

Being almost 6000 miles away from LGW I've no real feeling for the situation there but in my part of the world despite similar price increases, I see zero evidence of any improvements with any T & Cs being offered in any element of the industry .

[biddedout]

Very good points NM but requiring the right to live and work in the UK does not feature in the advert although it burried in a PDF further into the process. Another example of ambiguity.

[randon]

Try to press the "APPLY" link... The first question after that is exactly if you have the right to live and work in the UK...

[olster]

Are they going to use the B737 max?

[SpamCanDriver]

Given the part of the job requirements were a current type rating and experience on the 320, I don't think so

[Northern Monkey]

IAG does have a big order for the max. So I guess the answer is possibly, eventually. Maybe.

[SpamCanDriver]

I stand corrected then 👍

[kendrick47247]

Isnt it just a letter of intent they have?
=/= an order

[Northern Monkey]

Honestly I’m not sure, but I think we are splitting hairs. The crappy 320s at Gatwick will need replacing sometime. The answers remains possibly, maybe.

[MonarchOrBust]

Wasn't the 737Max Letter of Intent just a case of Boeing calling their mates at IAG and asking for a favour whilst the chips were down?

[SW1]

anyone heard anything yet? or will the PFOs come out after the closing date?

[midnight cruiser]

MonarchOrBust

They may well feature from 2023-27 when the max LOI deliveries were penciled in. 320s to be disposed of from 2022 (pre covid plans- with presumably the former to replace the latter, but now; who knows).

[Jwscud]

Rumour is assessments wil be starting before Christmas.

[EGKK.]

Anyone heard anything back yet?

does anyone know anymore about the T&C’s such as having the ability to transfer to other types/bases after a minimum time spent at LGW?

very little info on this at this stage…

[White Van Driver]

Anyone heard anything back yet?

does anyone know anymore about the T&C’s such as having the ability to transfer to other types/bases after a minimum time spent at LGW?

very little info on this at this stage…

from what I've heard, you'll get a place on the BA MSL with a base freeze of 6 years. So after 6 years you can bid for a job at LHR.
When you change seat/fleet you slide across the payscales at your current level. (Compared to say CX, where you start again from pp1 on the capt scale after a command)
I'm no expert by any means but hope that helps.
WVD

[BAreject]

We're 4 months from the Easter get away (covid permitting!). This airline has not even been officially announced as yet. They're going to need to move extremely fast to get everything in place by then.

[SW1]

got my PFO today

[Jonnyknoxville]

got my PFO today
yeah , me too , all capital letters 😂

[Sick]

Well, I can see this being real"lo cost" ha ha - mainline (LHR?) crews for who knows how long, mainline everything including the mindset, a cheapo version of the already pretty shabby BA product (oo yes please)!, trying to re-enter a market they already abandoned.
*sarcasm mode off* - it's laughable. I wouldn't give it long. Even Go was an infinitely better concept.

[Serenity]

It said in the Daily Telegraph that BA Lgw was never maki g a profit prior to the pandemic, so how low will they have to go to make it so now??
and how long will they give it before abandoning LGW again??

[iFunFlyer]

There used to be a PDF/link on this thread with the T&C/salaries, anyone know where it’s gone?

[Propellerhead]

As far as the travelling public will be concerned it won't be any different to BA at Gatwick before the pandemic. It's just lower Ts&Cs for the staff. So, it's not a new concept. But it will have separate management who will be able to choose the most profitable routes, unlike before when LGW just mostly got the routes that weren't profitable to work at LHR.

[balpalover69]

Are many of the pilots voted out of BA expecting to be joining BA LGW? Are they looking at a significant pay cut? Was the possibility of pilots on higher pay scales taking a community pay cut discussed so these pilots are disadvantaged again?

[BAe 146-100]

Latest on the grapevine- Smartlynx out of LGW subbing for BA , once again utilising cheap foreign labour, any surprise not really!!

[Blackfriar]

I did my Master's Degree thesis on the introduction of small regional jets into BA which included looking at the cost base and culture. It decided that they really needed to separate the whole RJ operation off, otherwise it would be loaded with LHR costs, Head Office overhead etc and would never be able to compete. This was in 1991, long before LoCos became a thing. BA flips and flops between making LGW a core site with lots of "waves" of shorthaul feeding longhaul and dropping the whole base because it doesn't make money. I doubt the accounting principles have improved much since my day when shorthaul was loaded with extra costs due to the absorbtion costing method where overheads were added per landing, not per flying hour, making Long Haul seem to be immensely profitable. Short Haul flights were sold in bulk at cheap rates to feed longhaul too.
Of course BA had a proper LoCo in Go!, run by Barbara Cassani, but sold it off to its management and then they sold it for a profit to EasyJet. Typical BA corporate decision making.

[turbine100]

If SmartLynx are operating for BA or others from the U.K during 2022, will all the non U.K crew members require work visa's?

[SpamCanDriver]

If SmartLynx are operating for BA or others from the U.K during 2022, will all the non U.K crew members require work visa's?

I'm not an immigration lawyer, but I think for temporary work on non G reg aircraft they don't need a work visa.
QR wet leased some 320's to BA, their staff didn't have work visas.

Again I'm no immigration lawyer, so could well be wrong

[manflexsrsrwy]

does anyone know someone who was actually invited to assessment for his perceived job opening ? AS FAR AS I CAN SEE, ITS SOME CLEVER PLOY TO HIRE THEIR OWN PEOPLE BACK UNDER WORSE TS AND CS , sorry of the caps, too tired to correct it now, Im not shouting, i just work in an LCC

[CW247]

Everyone i know that applied got a PFO. You have to laugh at the nominated post holder adverts too. All HR smokes and mirrors.

[EGKK.]

I’ve applied. Never worked there. I’ve not received a PFO yet. I asked when could one expect to find out about being invited for assessment and all I’ve been told is there are many applications that they are still working through and expect to hear back from them soon.

that was over a month ago 🤦🏽‍♂️

[manflexsrsrwy]

18 years in commercial operations, plenty of current command time , over ten k on the bus, never stopped flying through the pandemic, current LPC/OPC and class one without restrictions, under 45 years of age, over 400 hours in the last year, uk passport holder, vaguely foreign sounding name , which should help with the pc brigade and i also was told to PFO, maybe i should've identified as trans or summfink ?

[Alrosa]

I think the answer, ironically, is in the Wizzair thread. According to one poster, the vast majority of available positions have been filled by internal transfers, and the the various BA holding pools set up after BA made some pilots redundant, and put the 747 out of commission.

[manflexsrsrwy]

yes, thats what i thought in all honesty, or suspected rather, I wasn't aware how many people were put in from internal transfer, numbers etc and I'm guessing by the law of the land, they must advertise the position to make it a fair competition, at least on paper, even if the result is well known in advance. oh well it would've been good to get back to blighty...even if it is Laaandon Gatters....some day maybe eh ?

[FRYVA]

Guys/girls,

They pretty much had the airline filled barely halfway down the PRP list (e.g the list of 249 folk they sacked last year).

If there is any external recruitment it will be an absolute trickle to tick some HR box somewhere.

T's and C's are dire in in the context of what your colleagues are on to fly the same jets up the road but sadly as you've still got tens of thousands unemployed or on zero hours etc who would jump at it they aren't going to improve (ever, your BACC will see to that)

Cheers,

(Ex BA)

[turbine100]

Perhaps the unemployed could find work elsewhere in other industries, then BA will have to improve the terms to attract the talent. People need to say NO to these companies offering poor terms and no retirement.

[Alrosa]

Perhaps the unemployed could find work elsewhere in other industries, then BA will have to improve the terms to attract the talent. People need to say NO to these companies offering poor terms and no retirement.

Whilst I don’t disagree, and know of people made redundant from airline X, Y and Z that have indeed turned down airline jobs offering what they consider to be unacceptable conditions, I also see the law of supply and demand at work.

Unfortunately COVID has turned the industry upside down, and most pilots have suffered. I’m therefore not surprised that BA have apparently had no issue crewing the new set up at Gatwick.

[HEJT2015]

Perhaps the unemployed could find work elsewhere in other industries, then BA will have to improve the terms to attract the talent. People need to say NO to these companies offering poor terms and no retirement.

Happy for you to take the lead on this one if you’d like. Personally, I’ll wait until my former airline takes me back as redundancy due to LIFO isn’t worth a career change IMHO.

[NAT Zulu]

Happy for you to take the lead on this one if you’d like. Personally, I’ll wait until my former airline takes me back as redundancy due to LIFO isn’t worth a career change IMHO.

You got redundancy through LIFO? Lucky you....some of us expected that after decades in post and it was denied. Don't bank on LIFO - if it is attacked, NOBODY wants to defend it! Including unions.

[hans brinker]

You got redundancy through LIFO? Lucky you....some of us expected that after decades in post and it was denied. Don't bank on LIFO - if it is attacked, NOBODY wants to defend it! Including unions.

It is very strange that here in "the land of the free" (I am not originally from here, worked there till 05) pretty much every airline is unionized, all are LIFO, conditions (currently, at least) are way better. What happened in the EU that unions have no power, Wizz and Ryan thrive, BA has awful T/C (aso)?

[RudderTrimZero]

Not saying it's right but the logic is that in difficult times, when a company is trying to reduce costs, LIFO might mean retraining someone on another type, which is a cost to the company, which is what they're trying to avoid.

Secondly, BA's employees are mostly from the UK, a Western European country where living costs are high and therefore salaries need to be commensurate with this. Ryanair and Wizz mostly hire cheap labour from Eastern Europe. Those airlines can therefore offer cheaper fares on the same routes. The legacy carriers have to (on some routes) compete with this. Big Europe allows these companies to take advantage of this. It is not a level playing field unfortunately, but it makes a lot of business men with friends in politics very wealthy. The US is a similar land mass size to Europe but it is one country with (broadly speaking) identical hiring and labour laws. Salaries from one state to the next are also near identical.

[SpamCanDriver]

Not saying it's right but the logic is that in difficult times, when a company is trying to reduce costs, LIFO might mean retraining someone on another type, which is a cost to the company, which is what they're trying to avoid.

Secondly, BA's employees are mostly from the UK, a Western European country where living costs are high and therefore salaries need to be commensurate with this. Ryanair and Wizz mostly hire cheap labour from Eastern Europe. Those airlines can therefore offer cheaper fares on the same routes. The legacy carriers have to (on some routes) compete with this. Big Europe allows these companies to take advantage of this. It is not a level playing field unfortunately, but it makes a lot of business men with friends in politics very wealthy. The US is a similar land mass size to Europe but it is one country with (broadly speaking) identical hiring and labour laws. Salaries from one state to the next are also near identical.

Spot on

Also difficult to unionise across so many countries & freedom of movement allows them to bring in crews from different countries to break strikes

[CASBO]

Secondly, BA's employees are mostly from the UK, a Western European country where living costs are high and therefore salaries need to be commensurate with this. Ryanair and Wizz mostly hire cheap labour from Eastern Europe. Those airlines can therefore offer cheaper fares on the same routes. The legacy carriers have to (on some routes) compete with this. Big Europe allows these companies to take advantage of this. It is not a level playing field unfortunately, but it makes a lot of business men with friends in politics very wealthy. The US is a similar land mass size to Europe but it is one country with (broadly speaking) identical hiring and labour laws. Salaries from one state to the next are also near identical.

I don't think it's much to do with "Big Europe" or enriching businessmen. It's the free market responding to a globalised and easily relocated workforce. Can an expensive Western Europe based pilot add more value to the business than one who's located somewhere cheaper to live? If not, makes sense to outsource. Leads to cheaper fares and more people being able to enjoy air travel.

You're 180 out, in Europe we have a level-ish playing field, in the US they have protectionism.

[SpamCanDriver]

I don't think it's much to do with "Big Europe" or enriching businessmen. It's the free market responding to a globalised and easily relocated workforce. Can an expensive Western Europe based pilot add more value to the business than one who's located somewhere cheaper to live? If not, makes sense to outsource. Leads to cheaper fares and more people being able to enjoy air travel.

You're 180 out, in Europe we have a level-ish playing field, in the US they have protectionism.

Well that depends how you define "level playing field"
As you said yourself.
Would a low cost airline based in France be able to have the same cost base as one based in Romania.
Given all the employment protections and minimum pay etc etc.

[Captain Kaboom]

Lots of talk but what is the actual offer and schedule for a DEC? PPJN seems a bit outdated and focused on the Embraers.

Is it that bad?

[Lordflasheart]

...
Lots of talk but what is the actual offer and schedule for a DEC ?

PPJN seems a bit outdated and focused on the Embraers.

1. See here for PPJN - DITW. https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/644295-ppjn-dead.html

2. Is it that bad ? Well, possibly, but not as bad as this ...

https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/645030-flybe-recruitment.html

At least in BA Lite LGW, you probably won't be forbidden to discuss T & C with any external agency ...

According to recent Telegraph scuttlebutt, New Flybe are requiring a prior Non Disclosure Agreement as a condition of employment.

LFH
...

[Serenity]

I haven’t heard of any BA liveried flights from LGW this summer except a Scottish one. All others seem to be on Vueling or Iberia express.
are they actually running ??

[MSN001]

I had an invitation to assessment email last week and decided to withdraw my application. Better money at easyjet.

[Whitemonk Returns]

I had an invitation to assessment email last week and decided to withdraw my application. Better money at easyjet.

Well done 👍 desperate times and all that but the more people who decline these types of conditions the better it is for all of us in the long run

[Alrosa]

I had an invitation to assessment email last week and decided to withdraw my application. Better money at easyjet.


Well I suppose so, but unless you’re a cadet they don’t seem to be much interested in you. I hope I’m wrong !

[BAreject]

Well done 👍 desperate times and all that but the more people who decline these types of conditions the better it is for all of us in the long run

What, you mean the chance to earn c£100k (not amazing, I admit) and be based near your home airport? I'd take that over earning £130k and being based in the a*se end of nowhere, thank you very much. Bad conditions in your eyes but decent in the eyes of many others I'd imagine.

[Priority Club]

What, you mean the chance to earn c£100k (not amazing, I admit) and be based near your home airport? I'd take that over earning £130k and being based in the a*se end of nowhere, thank you very much. Bad conditions in your eyes but decent in the eyes of many others I'd imagine.

Indeed, two years after my last flight I'm working in a local shop for £18k. I used to earn that in a month but I'd jump at a 'not amazing' £100k with BA having had the reality check of earning 9 quid an hour.

[Busdriver01]

having had the reality check of earning 9 quid an hour.

I feel your pain! It *has* to get better soon...surely...!

[Busdriver01]

I feel your pain! It *has* to get better soon...surely...!


haha, nope, 5%+ bonus for all staff instead - that'll make everyone who got kicked to the kerb feel better!

[Lordflasheart]

It *has* to get better soon...surely...!

BA Euroflyer's expectation was eighteen aircraft and more than two dozen shorthaul destinations from Gatwick by end of May 2022, for which they have been taking bookings for several months.

Since the BA Gatwick Lite pilot voting hiatus last year - ("We'll ballot until you vote Yes") - BA Euroflyer, who will be operating on the BA AOC for a while, has since -

1. Unsurprisingly failed to attract enough volunteers from the ranks of serving BA captains and co-pilots and even from their own pool of temporary and permanent unwanted, who think that a fixed six year 'secondment' might be a freeze too far especially if they are close to the mandated requirements for command.

2. Boasted of the flood of qualified external applicants from Easyjet, Wizz, FR (who all seem to be paid significantly more than Euroflyer is offering) and from various dole queues around Europe - many of whom have since been ignored or failed to demonstrate any reasonable standard.

3. Had to arrange for promised flights to be operated to a large extent this year by - take your pick from - Vueling or Iberia Express, Finnair, Titan, BA Shorthaul at LHR etc.

The latest scuttlebutt according to our 'favourite's' apoplectic Captain in the pub last night, is that Iberia will be supplying a couple of dozen co-pilots specially promoted who will join Euroflyer on the BA MSL as DECs and as a sweetener, will have their pay enhanced by the parent company. Apparently a lot of that is 'according to the Spanish Pilots Union' who may have jumped the announcement gun, because it was 'news' to everyone else.

Thus there is likely to be much accusation and denial before all the ducks are singing from the same hymn sheet. The principal subject of outraged 'debate' seems to be - "What is Balpa doing to stand up for its members ?" - Short answer - "Nothing we can do, old boy, but stand by for comms."

Assuming he doesn't resign from Balpa (again) for Balpa's alleged support for the Spanish Imposition, we may find out more at Quiz Night on Friday, because he says BA has screwed up his recency (again) so he's lost another long trip (again). A long hot summer will not be good for his wellbeing.

LFH
...

[Lordflasheart]

...
It appears BA Euroflyer can't find enough properly qualified pilots to operate their 'planned' services from Gatwick even with scheduled backup from BA at Heathrow.

Our mate says his mate on the A320 is now getting regular 'begging texts' to be a good team player and nip down to Gatwick to help Euroflyer at short notice (ie. on the day.) He was well off his game at Quiz Night, fuming as well about silence from Balpa on this and similar problems at LHR. It needs to get sorted quick, or he's off our team as well.

No one seems to know whether Euroflyer has got any actual pilots of their own yet.

It must be costing someone a fortune, especially if Euroflyer has to contribute to 'Head Office Costs' on top of all the outsourcing.

LFH

[SW1]

Just bumping this thread. Anybody know how many Captains they’re looking for at the moment?

[biddedout]

Sixteen aircraft according to the website so I guess about 80+ Captains. With such narrow experience criteria, I am not sure where they are going to find them. Poaching from Wizz and Easy seems to be the only option and they are unlikely to get many applicants from the latter.

[Potatos_69]

Sixteen aircraft according to the website so I guess about 80+ Captains. With such narrow experience criteria, I am not sure where they are going to find them. Poaching from Wizz and Easy seems to be the only option and they are unlikely to get many applicants from the latter.

They won’t have much luck with wizz either. Pay is below wizz which is problematic…

[Polorutz]

Has anyone gone for selection with BA recently? I have been told they have changed their Psychometric testing compared to previous years, as well as the assessment day in Waterside, it appears it runs slightly different than before.

If anyone has gone through selection recently can you post a quick recap? What were the psychometric tests like?

[Potatos_69]

EF can enjoy the new ex pink DFO from now I hear.

[biddedout]

I see the EF job vacancy has been removed from the BA careers page. Does anyone know if they have managed to recruit enough DEC's to cover the 16 aircraft or are they still planning to wet lease into the next season?

[capt.sparrow]

I think they were back filling most of them from their redundant pilots and suitable candidates from mainline holdpool? I'm guessing all done if advert has gone.

[Lordflasheart]

...
I see the EF job vacancy has been removed from the BA careers page.

I'm guessing all done if advert has gone.

Indeed - I can't find any Euroflyer pilot vacancies on the BA website, nor indeed any ads placed directly by Euroflyer.

However, a gash google for "EF Pilot recruitment" brings up a number of seemingly current ads by various agencies I've never heard of ** - for direct entry pilots or direct entry captains. These do not seem to be made by Euroflyer. Some of them seem to be catch-all 'job-search engines.' So I have no idea whether any of them lead anywhere useful, or whether they are out-of-date dross, because you mostly have to register before they will tell you anything. ** For instance - GB-Melga, AviaNation, Jobriton and even LinkedIn.

Anyone seriously looking for a pilot job will already know the above. The word in our pub Friday night was that Euroflyer is still looking for pilots but the quality of applicants is questionable, there is a big shortfall in entry training capacity, and anyone in their right mind with the required type rating and 'acceptable to BA' ought to be looking elsewhere on account of the rubbish T & C.

The underlying opinion is that BA is flounderingly and micro-manageringly unable to decide from day to day what the pilot requirements are for both EF and Mainline and that EF is (unsurprisingly) getting a bit desprit.

Good luck to all pilot job-seekers.

[biddedout]

Thanks Flash,
That's interesting. I only thought about it after recently looking through the list of TRE's on the CAA website and spotting several extremely experienced, qualified and capable former colleagues who are still out of work. If BA is struggling to find quality applicants and care about standards, they need to drop the crap about needing to be a current Airbus commander because that is preventing these trainers and many other capable line pilots from applying. If they are struggling for quality, then it is entirely of their own doing. If they actually put a bit of money into training, they would have the benefit of a new crop of potential trainer talent for free but so far, they just seem to be going down the road of the worst of the LoCo's and it will eventually bite them.

[Chauderon]

From the BA careers website;

"You’ll feel at home here if you embrace timeless British values and modern Britain’s strengths: knowhow, creativity, energy, diversity and open-mindedness – and a sense of respect, responsibility, fair play and knowing whose turn it is to make the tea."

Which British value is having pilots fly the same aircraft, from the same city, in the same uniform, for less pay? I understand Covid has been awful and why people have applied for EF. But to reinstate BA's claimed respect and fair play to the UK pilot community, I sincerely hope EF goes the same way as Go.

[Time Traveller]

Hiring back Barbara Cassani, would be a start.

[turbine100]

The maths test is done online before going and is random questions.

Same day for group exercises, face to face, interview and multi tasking.

They also try and sell how great Euro Flyer is on the lower salary but higher flight pay as they cannot attract anyone.

Many people go for the interview and after meeting the BA recruitment team, changing mind about main line and Euro flyer. They will find it hard to attract people, especially those with U.K license, right to work in U.K that are current with a Airbus rating. When considering Jet 2, Easy etc are offering better deals overall.

[DS1]

4% this year and 4% next year.

[Busdriver01]

4% this year and 4% next year.

This is purely rumour at this point though isn't it, because the union haven't yet actually told anyone what the proposed deal is.

[DS1]

This is purely rumour at this point though isn't it, because the union haven't yet actually told anyone what the proposed deal is.
Yep guess we will know more next week.

[hunterboy]

It had better be more than 4% or I suspect there will be a large rejection……I was thinking more like 15% !

[Busdriver01]

Again a rumour but apparently the PRP members will also not be getting their original pay points reinstated despite balpa saying that that was a 'deal breaker' - not many of the pilot membership at BA, it seems, really know how bad the PRP had it - no redundancy pay, no pay protection upon return, new fleet freeze of 5 years.

Any deal that doesn't do right for the PRP members should be outright rejected - or they've been thrown under the bus yet again and we will have 250 seriously disaffected colleagues for the remainder of their careers. Furthermore, why would any new ba pilot believe balpa had their best interests at heart? Not sticking up for the bottom of the MSL at this time could well have serious implications the long term stability / strength of the union.

[HEJT2015]

Busdriver01, thank you.

[Busdriver01]

Busdriver01, thank you.

Someone has to speak up for them. We have let them down repeatedly over the last two years, and I fear they're going to be the sacrificial lambs *yet again* which would be an absolute travesty.

[Busdriver01]

4% this year and 4% next year.


If only the actual deal was as good as this... (spoiler alert: it's not)

[thetimesreader84]

I had low expectations but... wow.

[Busdriver01]

The PRP have been well and truly let down with this deal - a small annual bonus for a few years, before returning to their new (lower) pay point for the remainder of their careers. Disgusting.

We ought, too, to be extremely worried about the scheduling agreements they’re proposing. Goodbye any and all roster stability.

The downward spiral continues. I wouldn’t bother joining this airline any more.

[thetimesreader84]

We ought, too, to be extremely worried about the scheduling agreements they’re proposing. Goodbye any and all roster stability.


Just to expand on this. Under the new scheme, if you have a trip change after 6pm local, you're effectively going to be expected to keep to your original report time, and BA crewing will let you know 4 hours before your report what you're going to do. Anything that clears within 3 hours of your original finish time is fair game.

It reads like the first step on the road to "your days off are yours, everything else is BA's" which was the attitude at the bottom feeder turboprop outfit I got away from 15 odd years ago.

As for the PRP "settlement", there's nothing I can say that hasn't been said already. A kick in the slats.

To anyone going through the joining process at the moment think hard. You aren't going to matter to BALPA (and by extension BA) for at least a decade. This pay deal proves it.

[Jwscud]

You have just described the already extant rostering system at LGW.

[SunSmith]

And the BALPA cheer-leaders calling it a great deal......

"Opportunity to wipe the slate clean"
"powder dry"
"no alternative"
"next pay deal"......

[DS1]

You have just described the already extant rostering system at LGW.
The deal for euroflyer is atrocious. Didn’t these guys join BA originally? Where is Balpa?

[BAreject]

"no alternative"

Spineless (when it comes to junior trash, anyway).

Let the BACC be very clear on this, "BA set a red line on return to original payscales for the PRP members". Rest assured everybody though, "it was a big matter for the BACC" - so big that they plan to revisit it some time in another life....

Can you imagine Mick Lynch coming out with such utterly pathetic defeatist talk?

All that said though, is anybody genuinely surprised at this proposed outcome?

[Arrowhead]

Thanks Flash,
That's interesting. I only thought about it after recently looking through the list of TRE's on the CAA website and spotting several extremely experienced, qualified and capable former colleagues who are still out of work. If BA is struggling to find quality applicants and care about standards, they need to drop the crap about needing to be a current Airbus commander because that is preventing these trainers and many other capable line pilots from applying. If they are struggling for quality, then it is entirely of their own doing. If they actually put a bit of money into training, they would have the benefit of a new crop of potential trainer talent for free but so far, they just seem to be going down the road of the worst of the LoCo's and it will eventually bite them.


All I can say is I applied as DEC last November with >12,000 hours on the A320 (8,000 in command), and I didn’t even get an interview at BA LGW (nor at Jet2). I’m 50, and had been out of flying for 8 months.

I don’t know what criteria these airlines are looking for, but clearly A320 experience isn’t one of them. Maybe they had enough DECs applying from EZY, FR, and Wizz?

Luckily I did eventually find a UK carrier who wanted me as A320 DEC.

[A320LGW]

All I can say is I applied as DEC last November with >12,000 hours on the A320 (8,000 in command), and I didn’t even get an interview at BA LGW (nor at Jet2). I’m 50, and had been out of flying for 8 months.

I don’t know what criteria these airlines are looking for, but clearly A320 experience isn’t one of them.

Luckily I did eventually find a UK carrier who wanted me as A320 DEC.

I think they are looking for A320 rated, those are the only ones who seem to be getting assessments. Dare I say age probably came into it in your case?

[Arrowhead]

I think they are looking for A320 rated, those are the only ones who seem to be getting assessments. Dare I say age probably came into it in your case?

i am A320 rated. It’s all I have ever flown. 50 may be a bit old perhaps… Also I got my hours in Asia, not in Europe.

But it goes to show they must have had a lot of younger, UK-experienced A320 DECs apply…

[kendrick47247]

those are the only ones who seem to be getting assessments

No, they are not.

[zumzum]

Hi guys,

some feedback from my last interview with BA EF DEC (about 2 weeks ago)

Generally speaking, I think the interview has been fairly straight forward. The tech test was also not that difficult (I think it was like 30 questions, 30mins and not related to A320. Just ATPL stuff)
Then we had a group exercise and a personal interview. Again, not for NASA astronauts.

At lunch time we had a relaxed chat with a Captain and a First Officer both from EF. They went through a presentation and offered us snacks and crisps lol.
Nice guys for sure. Salary is around 80K£ plus the flying (totaling around 100K). This turns out to be something around 5,500/6000£ PM after tax.

I don't think I will continue to the next steps. London is an expensive place to live even tho I kinda enjoyed the HQ, people and so on. All the non-financial related stuff basically.

Feel free to DM me if you are seeking additional infos.

Best

[SW1]

Good post zumzum! Did you get a positive reply back from BA yet?

[flyer4life]

The salary is disappointing considering the cost of living around LGW.

Any information about the pension on offer? Also, what kind of rosters could we expect? (Days off per month, typical patterns, stability, sectors per day, typical duty length, any nightstops etc).

Cheers.

[White Van Driver]

The salary is disappointing considering the cost of living around LGW.

Any information about the pension on offer? Also, what kind of rosters could we expect? (Days off per month, typical patterns, stability, sectors per day, typical duty length, any nightstops etc).

Cheers.

I believe pension is same as mainline - 6% employee + 15% employer.

[zumzum]

Not sure about pension plans I'm afraid. Spent too much time in too many different places that I personally don't count on that.

Regarding rosters: they looked good. Mainly two sectors days with 1hr turnaround on average. Long flights: lots of Spain, Portugal, Italy and no nightstops. In reality, they are not really a low cost as they claim. Its all BA for now but they plan to have their own AOC etc.

They seemed fairly interested in getting pilots as they need to expand quite a bit but not desperate I would say.

All in all, I think if you are British, maybe from London, it would make a lot of sense as this would be a non-commuting contract (no 5-4 like easyJet) and you'll have the chance to join the main BA seniority list. Meaning you can then apply for long haul and whatnot (including getting mainline contract for what I understood). Its a good bet I would say.
Now, if you are a foreigner, well it all depend on personal circumstances. But cost of living is very high and well, there are now so many opportunities if you want to fly away from home but still in Europe (for that money).

I will not proceed any further in the selection process as it doesn't make sense for me personally, but again, I can see good potential if you are from that side of the world :-)
on a side note: of course this is not good for BA pilots as they see all this as another potential threat. But man, Europe is so f**** that hey, at least we are not flipping burgers just yet.

[biddedout]

Now, if you are a foreigner, well it all depend on personal circumstances. But cost of living is very high and well, there are now so many opportunities if you want to fly away from home but still in Europe (for that money).


I thought freedom of movement had ended. How would BA recruit EU citizens?

[zumzum]

By getting a Skilled Worker visa.To be eligible for the Skilled Worker route:


you must have a job offer from an employer who is able to sponsor your visa application
the job offer must be at the appropriate skill and salary level
you must be able to speak English to the required standard

[biddedout]

Is that what they are doing. Brexit just keeps on giving. :ugh:

[VariablePitchP]

By getting a Skilled Worker visa.To be eligible for the Skilled Worker route:

you must have a job offer from an employer who is able to sponsor your visa application
the job offer must be at the appropriate skill and salary level
you must be able to speak English to the required standard



Which they’re not doing…

[DS1]

Not sure about pension plans I'm afraid. Spent too much time in too many different places that I personally don't count on that.

Regarding rosters: they looked good. Mainly two sectors days with 1hr turnaround on average. Long flights: lots of Spain, Portugal, Italy and no nightstops. In reality, they are not really a low cost as they claim. Its all BA for now but they plan to have their own AOC etc.

They seemed fairly interested in getting pilots as they need to expand quite a bit but not desperate I would say.

All in all, I think if you are British, maybe from London, it would make a lot of sense as this would be a non-commuting contract (no 5-4 like easyJet) and you'll have the chance to join the main BA seniority list. Meaning you can then apply for long haul and whatnot (including getting mainline contract for what I understood). Its a good bet I would say.
Now, if you are a foreigner, well it all depend on personal circumstances. But cost of living is very high and well, there are now so many opportunities if you want to fly away from home but still in Europe (for that money).

I will not proceed any further in the selection process as it doesn't make sense for me personally, but again, I can see good potential if you are from that side of the world :-)
on a side note: of course this is not good for BA pilots as they see all this as another potential threat. But man, Europe is so f**** that hey, at least we are not flipping burgers just yet.

Less pay at BA Lgw than LHR euro. Frozen at Lgw for 5 years. No nightstops.