Disregard for International Safety Standards

[casablanca]

I can definitely appreciate the affects this pandemic has had on all carriers worldwide. I understand, as unfortunate as it is, the need to layoff employees and force salary reductions. I don’t however believe this should be an excuse to skirt all the laws that are on the books. As far as I know every Civil Aviation Authority has similar rules regarding max flight times of approximately 1000 hours per year or 100 per month (with some small exemptions.)
I find it absurd that a certain airline is able to schedule it's pilots far above the limits by simply inventing new formulas to log flight hours. Reference the document below ( note 3 referring to 4 pilot crews) the hours logged, paid and counted toward flight time limits are 37.5% of actual hours flown. A relief crew completing a 12 hour flight would only log 4.5 hours of flight time. Even the time required to be on a flight deck jumpseat during takeoff and landing is now magically not counted? In theory someone could be rostered as relief crew on every flight and “legally” fly more than 2000 hours per year. This airline claims safety is paramount yet seems to ignore dangers of extreme fatigue amongst the crew.
I was curious what other countries allow? Under My countries regulations a required crew member logs and counts total flight time towards monthly/ yearly limits. Even during war times military pilots have limits. I may be naive but just surprised other countries like Australia and Those under EASA turn a blind eye?
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x2000/beb770dc_6c97_41f3_9349_9a07578b2423_0d90695d47d852fd3bc55f3 9e78bed9e4e20d63e.png

[swh]

Dont see this much different to Part-FCL – Subpart A. What would be limiting the crew would be maximum duty times, not maximum flight times. Under the FCL co-pilot time is only logged "when occupying a pilot’s seat".

(1) PIC flight time:
(i) the holder of a licence may log as PIC time all of the flight time during which he or she is the PIC;
(ii) the applicant for or the holder of a pilot licence may log as PIC time all solo flight time, flight time as SPIC and flight time under supervision provided that such SPIC time and flight time under supervision are countersigned by the instructor;
(iii) the holder of an instructor certificate may log as PIC all flight time during which he or she acts as an instructor in an aircraft;
(iv) the holder of an examiner’s certificate may log as PIC all flight time during which he or she occupies a pilot’s seat and acts as an examiner in an aircraft;
(v) a co-pilot acting as PICUS on an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or as required by operational requirements provided that such PICUS time is countersigned by the PIC;
(vi) if the holder of a licence carries out a number of flights upon the same day returning on each occasion to the same place of departure and the interval between successive flights does not exceed 30 minutes, such series of flights may be recorded as a single entry.
(2) co-pilot flight time: the holder of a pilot licence occupying a pilot seat as co-pilot may log all flight time as co-pilot flight time on an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted;
(3) cruise relief co-pilot flight time: a cruise relief co-pilot may log all flight time as co-pilot when occupying a pilot’s seat;
(4) instruction time: a summary of all time logged by an applicant for a licence or rating as flight instruction, instrument flight instruction,
instrument ground time, etc., may be logged if certified by the appropriately rated or authorised instructor from whom it was received;
(5) PICUS flight time: provided that the method of supervision is acceptable to the competent authority, a co-pilot may log as PIC flight time flown as PICUS when all the duties and functions of PIC on that flight were carried out in such a way that the intervention of the PIC in the interest of safety was not required.
(c) Format of the record:
(1) details of flights flown under commercial air transport may be recorded in a computerised format maintained by the operator. In this case an operator should make the records of all flights operated by the pilot, including differences and familiarisation training, available upon request to the flight crew member concerned;
(2) for other types of flight, the pilot should record the details of the flights flown in the following logbook format. For sailplanes and balloons, a suitable format should be used that contains the relevant items mentioned in (a) and additional information specific to the type of operation.

[casablanca]

I agree co-pilot would log p2 when in seat…but normally the total time of flight should count towards flight time limits. Under the FAA you are limited to 1000 hours total…not just 1000 hours of P1 or P2.
I would think if you do a 12 hour flight you should log 12 hours total time….p2 may only be 4.5
and talking about duty times I believe they are up to 23 hours….but that is a different story

[swh]

Seems you are confusing hours logged in your logbook, and flight time limits under the EASA FTL Regulations.

Under the FTLs, “flight time” means, for aeroplanes and touring motor gliders, the time between an aircraft first moving from its parking place for the purpose of taking off until it comes to rest on the designated parking position and all engines or propellers are shut down. That is not the same flight time that is logged in the log book.

The FTL limits are based upon FTL flight times, not hours logged in the logbook.

[casablanca]

The definition says you are either a crew member or a pax- a crew member remains an operating crew member even during rest and this counts towards the limits of FTL 210. Which basically says 100/28days or 1000/ 12 consec months
so when an airline rosters it’s employees much more than that it seems to be in violation of the law… just trying to see what I’m missing?

[Twiglet1]

Casa yes you're missing the above relates to FDP/Duty/Block times. It would seem some Airlines (and NAA) have milked the interpretation of how the time in cockpit is distributed.

[WrldWide]

The ?CAA regulations are quite clear about the definition of flight time, block off to block on. Nowhere in the regulations will one find allowance for "factored" time for crew members on inflight rest, at least not that I have found. But when an airline and a regulator are blood relatives, interesting things are allowed.
My recent recap of PIC + relief exceeded 110 hrs in less than 28 days.

[casablanca]

Twiglet1

ORO.FTL.105 says person is a crew member or passenger….if not a passenger the crew member will remain an operating crew member all flight and even rest counts in full as FDP ( as you said) but then but also says and for purpose of ORO FTL.210( which is referring to monthly and yearly limits.
bottom line is what is purpose of having limits if we can relabel it and say for example all flying above 20,000 fleet doesn’t count-
now we can schedule someone 2000 hours per year
they may have 5 star service but they are 1 star on safety when it comes to fatigue

[swh]

ORO.FTL.210 says "The total flight time of the sectors on which an individual crew member is assigned as an operating crew member shall not exceed" where ORO.FTL.105 Definitions (13) “flight time” means, for aeroplanes and touring motor gliders, the time between an aircraft first moving from its parking place for the purpose of taking off until it comes to rest on the designated parking position and all engines or propellers are shut down"

When it comes to recording flight time for the purpose of your logbook, that is in FCL.050 Recording of flight time (flight crew licencing) https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/dfu/Part-FCL.pdf

Your FCL flight time records cannot be used for FTL record keeping, FTLs records are maintained under ORO.FTL.115 and ORO.FTL.245.

[B2N2]

So if I understood correctly the FO’s are shafted and the Captain is not.
Interesting discrepancy.
I suggest you file a grievance for discriminatory practices if you have a strong Union.
If not then you have some hard decisions to make.

[B2N2]

Yeah…got me there.
Next best option…upgrade?
Take it up with ICAO/IATA…speech at the UN?

[KingAir1978]

B2N2

That could prove problematic... Check who's in charge of the board at IATA... https://www.iata.org/en/pressroom/pr/2018-06-05-06/

[sudden twang]

From th e opening post,
4 crew : total block time minus crew Bs rest period.
I think I must be jet lagged as that doesn’t make sense.

[casablanca]

The pic on record probably logs entire flight as P1
his fo would log actual time in seat. Say six hours of a 12 hour flight
the relief Capt/fo log half of flight minus 1.5 hours so only 4.5 hours( if I understand correctly? To be honest none of it makes since)
have heard of people being rostered for up to 150 hours a month using this formula and just don’t think that should be allowed