One down in Mexico

[Uneasy Rider]

www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/mexican-navy-helicopter-crash-landing-vea1a29ca

All survived

[krautland]

longer video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgHLx8t2Ers

[twinstar_ca]

Bet the driver of that van went and changed underwear as well!!! :eek::eek:

[pax britanica]

To say nothing of any passengers in the van, it is almost unbelievable how the rotor blades didnt chop it to pieces before he managed to accelerate away .

Lot of people thanking lucky stars after that

[Nightstop]

Can any of you rotary pilots offer an explanation for this loss of control? By the way, I think the overhead road sign “Feliz Viaje” in the video doesn’t apply in this case.

[Mogwi]

Looks like a tail rotor/drive failure to me.

Mog

[SimonK]

It does look that way but until it hits the ground I don't see anything untoward from the TR slowing down or moving unnaturally. Looking at his manoeuvre I wonder if he was heavy, hot n high and put a bootful of rudder in as he came to the hover and just ran out of tail rotor authority? Just a guess....

[megan]

I go with running out of pedal.

[cattletruck]

Regarding running out of anti-torque pedal, I stumbled across this post from long ago by Nick Lappos which is worth a repost.

If you slip down in Nr by even a bit, it can have a double effect. Here's why:
The thrust you deliver from the tail rotor creates the anti-torque, and is proportional to the pitch setting and the square of the Nr. If you reduce Nr by 2%, you reduce the thrust by 4%, which could get you close to limits in some cases.

The anti-torque that you need is proportional to the main rotor torque. If you droop Nr, the rotor needs the same power, but power is torque times Nr, so for constant power, the Main Rotor torque must go up. For a 2% droop in Nr, the torque will rise by 2%, and the anti-torque needed wil have to rise.

Thus, a given droop in Nr produces non-linear effect on the tail rotor margin.

A third effect is the need for the helicopter to point into the wind, like a weathervane. When crosswind, this effect is maximized.

Another effect that can play is vertical maneuvering. Note that a slight torque rise (manifold pressure for recips) will require a corresponding anti-torque response to maintain heading. If you nudge the collective upward and droop the Nr a bit, you can easily carve 5 or 7 knots off the side flight capability of the machine. For a hairy flare at the bottom of a too-fast approach, the main torque can be pumped to 10 or 15% above hover torque, and the tail rotor can be saturated.

There really is no such thing as Loss of Tail Rotor Effectiveness, BTW - for a given density altitude, the tail rotor always produces a given maximum amount of thrust and a given maximum effectiveness, it is just that it can be swamped by main rotor torque rises, and by crosswind effects. Generally, only marginal tail rotors experience LTE, and the vast majority of LTE events are experienced by only two types of helicopter. LTE is not a pervasive helicopter problem.

Whatever the issue in that video, I think the pilot, after realising he was in trouble low down, went for the paddock when out of nowhere comes a bus full of tourists and it's too late. Glad there were no major injuries.

[gulliBell]

Looks like a tail rotor/drive failure to me.

No way. Loss of TR drive would result in a much faster rotation than what is seen in the video. I'm with megan on this one, he ran out of pedal.

[malabo]

Heavy, aborted takeoff, stopped and turned out of any wind while still 'way out of ground effect. Settled with power, kept pulling the NR down so consequent loss of tail rotor authority and uncontrolled rotation. Might have made it without that pesky van in the way.

Thought the takeoff point was the football pitch, and the paddock with van was just a convenient place to crash.

mexico, previous ride might have been a 407, and he would have gotten away with it in that.

[mickjoebill]

They missed a bus, powerlines, lighting poles, car park, livestock, bystanders and a compound.


Mjb

[Non-PC Plod]

They missed a bus, powerlines, lighting poles, car park, livestock, bystanders and a compound.


Mjb

That should make the pilot a hero in the media then! (Pity there wasnt a nearby school to miss too)

[FH1100 Pilot]

Welp, we can't all be Chuck Yeager...

[Torquetalk]

It looks like the pilot reduced power after the initial take off and the yaw reduced mostly (sideslip helping keep it straight). Wonder if he might have been able to fly that out tbh, but he slowed to put it down with increasing yaw again. Hard to watch and not shout “keep it down” after that first ground contact.

[megan]

we can't all be Chuck YeagerTo be fair he's emulating Chuck Yeager, in as much Chuck threw away a F-104 because his ego exceeded his ability and nearly lost his life in the ejection.

[FH1100 Pilot]

Ohhh, dear Megan. Close out Tik Tok for a moment, will you? Look sweetie, you have to take into consideration the totality of C. Yeager's life and accomplishments. I realize that they all happened well before you were born, and so therefore don't count, something that is typical among you millennials. (Hell, for that matter the Beatles happened before you were born, too, and you probably consider BTS to be cutting edge.) And so you took one screwup of Yeager's and used that to invalidate his whole career and equate it with that of some bonehead helicopter pilot who couldn't fly his way out of an LTA event, eh? That about right, missy?

[tartare]

Testimony to the toughness of Mil gearboxes - that mangled main rotor appeared to be still turning under power even after the machine had stopped moving?

[skadi]

It looks like the pilot reduced power after the initial take off .....

He didn't take off. It was an aborted landing short prior touchdown at the soccerfield for unknown reason. There is a video somewere but I couldnt find it right now. The turning starts as soon as he pulled obviously a lot of power.

skadi

[Torquetalk]

He didn't take off. It was an aborted landing short prior touchdown at the soccerfield for unknown reason. There is a video somewere but I couldnt find it right now. The turning starts as soon as he pulled obviously a lot of power.

skadi

Looks like he should have aborted the landing a bit more.

[skadi]

I found that video, from 0:48 on

https://youtu.be/CVklFjH4Okk

skadi

[megan]

FH, you're both an ignorant and arrogant sod who knows little, sorry Mods. I was born within a few days of Chuck flying his first combat mission, if you knew of Chuck's real history and personality you wouldn't be giving him the over fawning idolatry, but then you're a Yank and he's one of yours. Bonehead helicopter pilot heh, how many close calls have you had where the same analysis could have been made, don't say none, because you'd be lying.

[Reely340]

I found that video, from 0:48 on

https://youtu.be/CVklFjH4Okk

skadi
Hmm, at 1:00 he was about one and a half MR diameter above ground and the evil yaw only started ever so slowly.

How about: "Staying put" instead of pulling collective and flying away?
e.g. descending at same rate and waiting for ground effect to enable one to further back off collective, thereby reducing anti-torque needs?

I guess simply continuing to land would have save it. Is that an unrealistic assumption of me?

[skadi]

Hmm, at 1:00 he was about one and a half MR diameter above ground and the evil yaw only started ever so slowly.

How about: "Staying put" instead of pulling collective and flying away?
e.g. descending at same rate and waiting for ground effect to enable one to further back off collective, thereby reducing anti-torque needs?

I guess simply continuing to land would have save it. Is that an unrealistic assumption of me?


Exactly my thoughts!

skadi

[212man]

Ohhh, dear Megan. Close out Tik Tok for a moment, will you? Look sweetie, you have to take into consideration the totality of C. Yeager's life and accomplishments. I realize that they all happened well before you were born, and so therefore don't count, something that is typical among you millennials. (Hell, for that matter the Beatles happened before you were born, too, and you probably consider BTS to be cutting edge.) And so you took one screwup of Yeager's and used that to invalidate his whole career and equate it with that of some bonehead helicopter pilot who couldn't fly his way out of an LTA event, eh? That about right, missy?
I imagine Megan has been called many things in his life, but I'm damned sure this is the first time he's been called a millenial!

[Fareastdriver]

ow about: "Staying put" instead of pulling collective and flying away?
e.g. descending at same rate and waiting for ground effect to enable one to further back off collective, thereby reducing anti-torque needs?

I guess simply continuing to land would have save it. Is that an unrealistic assumption of me?

The difficulty with continuing his descent was the fact that there was a bus underneath him; possibly full of orphaned children.

[gulliBell]

...dear Megan. Close out Tik Tok for a moment, will you? Look sweetie...
I can't let that one fly without comment...Extremely disrespectful to say that about a veteran who has served his country, who has considerable combat experience, who's been shot down on multiple occasions by enemy action (usually on a Sunday), and with more hours in the logbook than almost anybody else here. That be the end of it.

[skadi]

The difficulty with continuing his descent was the fact that there was a bus underneath him; possibly full of orphaned children.

There was no bus underneath on the initial approach to the soccerfield

skadi

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

FH1100

well, isn't that the most misogynistic post i have read in awhile
you should probably offer an apology

[[email protected]]

well, isn't that the most misogynistic post i have read in awhile
you should probably offer an apology misogynistic???? Ignorant - yes. Disrespectful - certainly. Worthy of an apology - absolutely. But I don't see the misogyny in there......

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

misogynistic???? Ignorant - yes. Disrespectful - certainly. Worthy of an apology - absolutely. But I don't see the misogyny in there......

sweety
missy

both terms used as feminine and weak in their context and used to oppress women in a male dominated career.
dont worry, i too have used the terms loosely in the past, and have been getting slapped by the women who have had enough of it, even as minor as we think it is.
I have learned, so can you.

[[email protected]]

I take your point and I have learned but I am not aboard the outrage bus and not entirely convinced Megan is female given Gullibell's and 212 man's use of the masculine gender when describing his service.

FH's use of those terms doesn't make him a misogynist, just a c**k.

Perhaps Megan could confirm or deny:ok:

[Bell_ringer]

Good news FH, the TOTM (tw@t of the month) award panel called, your trophy is ready for collection. :}

[FH1100 Pilot]

Good news FH, the TOTM (tw@t of the month) award panel called, your trophy is ready for collection. :}
Well I'm honored! But...whatever will you replace it with in your trophy case? Won't it leave a big hole?

[Non-PC Plod]

Where are the moderators? This thread is all getting a bit puerile.

[megan]

Perhaps Megan could confirm or denyI had my first suck on the professional aviation teat with the commencement of pre flight at Mainside, one notable ground instructor was Rick Adams who had the distinction of being shot down twice over the north while driving the F-8.

https://lfeldhaus.tripod.com/cmdrjackfeldhaususn/id46.html

From pre flight, VT-1 Saufley T-34B, Whiting South VT-3 T-28, VT-5 Saufley T-28 all flying done at Barin, VT-6 Sherman T-28, HT-8 Ellyson TH-13M, H-34, Wings, US Army slick driver IV Corp Mekong based.

FH ought to be able to discern sex from that, given his stated residence locale I sure as hell hope he's not ex USN, that would be a great disappointment, he's certainly not showing the qualities the organisation demanded.

I'll bale with the following advice, FH needs a piece,.

A wise man once told me that the key to success in this sport depends solely on how you hold your mouth. I looked puzzled initially, so he answered my question. ‘ You can tell a lot about what is going through a persons mind by the way they hold their mouth.’ If someone has a confident grin, then they are probably in control of their actions. If they looked shocked, then they have probably done something for the first time, or they just realised that they’ve done something that they probably shouldn’t. However the most important thing about how you how you hold your mouth is how big it needs to be if someone asks you to swallow a piece of….Humble Pie.

There are many ingredients in humble Pie, the most flavoursome being pride. You will definitely taste the pride as you swallow your first piece. The remaining ingredients are like the eleven secret herbs and spices, mysterious though a recognisable flavour. As life goes on, you’ll grow accustomed to the taste and might learn to savour the flavour. If you live to be older and bolder, normally it becomes your job to pass on the recipe to the younger generation. When someone tells you that they’ve eaten it before, believe them, it is true. Everybody eats humble pie, sooner or later.

If you don’t like Humble Pie and aren’t prepared to eat it, then the next time you are in a situation which warrants eating another piece, you might be wishing that you had a tasting, just for good karma. A frosty cold beverage aids digestion. Obey your thirst…SIMPLE.

[212man]

https://lfeldhaus.tripod.com/cmdrjackfeldhaususn/id46.html

Well worth a read- quite a character!

[RVDT]

Returning to the thread for a second.

YT is littered with Mils doing this trick.

Natural selection?

[megan]

YT is littered with Mils doing this trick.

Natural selectionThe 206 was there first, you would think Mil might have learnt all about what Bell coyly calls LTE.

[Ant T]

Returning to the thread for a second.

YT is littered with Mils doing this trick.

Natural selection?

It does seem to be a very typical Mil accident with endless examples caught on video.

I was looking through the Aviation Safety Network database, and counted around 1,200 Mil8/Mil17 written off in accidents!

Wikipedia does list the model as being the highest production helicopter ever, with “17,000+”, but even taking that into account it seems a huge number of crashes. I can’t imagine any other mass produced helicopter type comes close, as a proportion of airframes manufactured.

The Bell UH1 series production is listed on Wiki as “16,000+”, but the ASN database only shows about 700 of those written off (and that does seem to include the ones lost during the Vietnam war).

(Edit - does look as if the R44 rivals the Mil for proportion lost in accidents - don’t have time to count now, but at a quick look I think the number may be around 800 losses from 6,300+ produced …)

(Edit - had a better look now, and I count about 490 R44s listed on ASN as written off - disclaimer, this is not an accurate count (by me!)

[WillyPete]

Hmm, at 1:00 he was about one and a half MR diameter above ground and the evil yaw only started ever so slowly.

How about: "Staying put" instead of pulling collective and flying away?
e.g. descending at same rate and waiting for ground effect to enable one to further back off collective, thereby reducing anti-torque needs?

I guess simply continuing to land would have save it. Is that an unrealistic assumption of me?


The other video of this accident shows them attempting to land, but developing a slow left yaw.
If this was happening with full pedal then I'm not surprised the pilot tried to fly away.
From what I know of the Mi-8 though, once you exceed available power the gens cut off and thus you also lose the stabilisation systems to aid the pilot.

It looks like the aircraft also hits max power demand while trying to leave the landing area for another attempt.

There's also the possibility of him having lost an engine during descent, which loss would lead to the very noticeable lack of power and coning at the end.