Secret Spitfires...

[Duchess_Driver]

Driving up to Old Sarum the other day, stumbled past a plastic Spit on a pole.

A bit of research found....

https://www.secretspitfiresmemorial.org.uk/

Interesting. Who knew?

DD

[treadigraph]

Me... :}

As far as I recall, Spitfire production dispersal to workshops and so on in the surrounding area was planned before the Woolston works (and Eastleigh?) were bombed. Mass production also undertaken at Castle Bromwich and by Westland, I think starting with the MkV?

Recommended reading: Jeff Quill and Alex Henshaw's autobiographies if you haven't already.

[longer ron]

Yes there were dispersed sites/workshops all over wiltshire - Burlen Fuel Systems are still in business and are a handy source for old carbs etc.
High Post Airfield just up the road was a busy assembly and Flight Test site as was Chattis Hill Gallops.

[DaveReidUK]

Interesting. Who knew?

Well apart from those who saw the documentary (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6303380/)on TV five years ago. :O

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/467x621/secret_spitfires_40fdfc7a89c02f2377f33e27ccd5b38caf68be93.jp g

After the destruction of the main factories in Southampton by Luftwaffe, manufacturing of Spitfires were moved to shadow factories in small towns and villages. One such place was Salisbury in Wiltshire. Here, sheds, workshops, garages, bus depots and a local hotel were used to build parts and then assembled to complete aircraft which were then flown out by ATA girls from local fields to awaiting RAF pilots.

[treadigraph]

Castle Bromwich production started with the Mk II!

[POBJOY]

Yes there were dispersed sites/workshops all over wiltshire - Burlen Fuel Systems are still in business and are a handy source for old carbs etc.
High Post Airfield just up the road was a busy assembly and Flight Test site as was Chattis Hill Gallops.

Both the above well worth a visit as vey little changed since their original use.
Chattis Hill now has its entrance road called Spitfire Lane so easy to find off the main road west bound out of Stockbridge. Hangar base's in the woods and hardstanding in next door field. High Post still has the original pre war small hangar. Supermarines first jets flew out of here off the grass field.

[megan]

Here, sheds, workshops, garages, bus depots and a local hotel were used to build partsVisiting the Solent Sky Museum many decades ago we were shown a small wooden jig made of wood which was said to be the last remaining Spitfire jig extant, It was said that ladies would congregate at a house and sit around the kitchen table using the jig to turn out a particular fuel pipe component. A small snippet and a wonderful part of history.

[clareprop]

Mass production also undertaken at Castle Bromwich

My aunt worked there during the war fitting 'skins' which as far as I could understand, was the leading edge of the Spitfire wing.

[VictorGolf]

I had just unloaded a charming elderly lady from her 2-seat Spitfire "experience" , when she called over to her nephew and asked if he'd got her record book. Said book was duly found and the lady asked me what the serial of the Spitfire was. It was MJ627 and after a couple of minutes looking at her book she very firmly declared "No I didn't do this one but I did 629". Turns out she had been rivetting up fuselages at Castle Bromwich, so it was nice that we were able to complete the circle for her, so to speak.

[POBJOY]

Castle Bromwich production started with the Mk II!

Now there is a story that that needs 'exploring'. Despite a huge investment in the latest equipment and production space where were the Spitfires when needed in 1940.
JQ and AH books broach the subject, but it seems that considering we 'could' have needed the machines in 1939 how was this facility allowed to fall so far behind in its ability to produce such an important requirement. Luckily the Luftwaffe failed to knock out the Supermarine production in Southampton when it should have done, thereby confirming that battles are frequently won by making the least mistakes.

[chevvron]

There was a site at Trowbridge which operated from 1941 to 1958. It was mainly to manufacture wings for PR Spitfires and after assembly at Steeple Ashton, the aircraft were flown from Keevil.
In latter years it was used to make parts for the Scimitar.

[Asturias56]

" where were the Spitfires when needed in 1940."

Wikipedia is pretty correct I beleive:-

The Spitfire's stressed-skin construction required precision engineering skills and techniques outside the experience of the local labour force which took some time to train.......However, even as the first Spitfires were being built in June 1940, the factory was still incomplete and there were numerous problems with the factory management which ignored tooling and drawings provided by Supermarine in favour of tools and drawings of its own designs. Meanwhile, the workforce, while not completely stopping production, continually threatened strikes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action) or "slow downs" until their demands for higher than average pay rates were met (this was of course during the Phoney War). By May 1940, Castle Bromwich had not yet built its first Spitfire in spite of promises that the factory would be producing 60 per week starting in April.

It is worth noting, however, that key players, such as Alex Henshaw, viewed the problems as primarily those of poor management during the initial phase. Workers worked twelve-hour on and twelve-hours off until bombings forced a switch to a three-shift, eight-hour system. Henshaw attended the diamond jubilee in 1996 of the founding of the CBAF, hosted by Jaguar Cars Limited in the old factory and remained fulsome in his praise for the workforce until his death.
Vickers-Armstrong: 1940–1945After the fall of the government of Neville Chamberlain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neville_Chamberlain), new Prime Minister Winston Churchill (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill) appointed press tycoon Lord Beaverbrook (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Aitken,_1st_Baron_Beaverbrook) as the Minister of Aircraft Production (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minister_of_Aircraft_Production). On 17 May, Beaverbrook telephoned Nuffield and manoeuvered him into handing over control of the Castle Bromwich plant to Beaverbook's Ministry. Nuffield was furious and reported the incident to Churchill, but Beaverbrook countered by sending in aircraft expert Sir Richard Fairey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Richard_Fairey) who wrote a secret report which detailed how expensive machinery had been unused, the assembly line in chaos, and the employees not doing their work:
Labour is in a very bad state. Discipline is lacking. Men are leaving before time and coming in late, taking evenings off when they think fit. In parts of the factory I noticed that the men did not even stir themselves at the approach of the Works Manager. The labour in the Midlands is not “playing the game”. They are getting extra money and are not working in proportion for it.
Beaverbrook, who had disturbed the Air Ministry by agreeing with the vision of Air Vice Marshal Hugh Dowding (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Dowding) that Britain at that time needed defensive fighters over attacking bombers, immediately cancelled all Castle Bromwich contracted bombers, which at that point included the Handley-Page Halifax (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handley-Page_Halifax) and the Vickers Wellington (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_Wellington). He then sent in experienced management staff and workers from Supermarine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine), and gave over control of the factory to Vickers-Armstrong (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers-Armstrong) (Supermarine's parent company). Although it would take some time to resolve the problems, CBAF achieved full production in June 1940, when 10 Spitfire Mk IIs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Spitfire_variants#Mk_II_.28Type_329.29) were built; 23 in July; 37 in August; and 56 in September. No. 611 Squadron (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._611_Squadron_RAF) at RAF Digby (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Digby) the first squadron to receive the Mk II in August 1940, notably late in the Battle of Britain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain).

The wisdom of the shadow factory scheme was demonstrated in September 1940, when the Supermarine factory in Southampton (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southampton) was bombed, and production there temporarily stopped. CBAF went on to become the largest and most successful plant of its type during the 1939–45 conflict. As the largest Spitfire factory in the UK, by producing a maximum of 320 aircraft per month, it built over half of the approximately 20,000 aircraft of this type. By the time production ended at Castle Bromwich in June 1945, a total of 12,129 Spitfires (921 Mk IIs, 4,489 Mk Vs, 5,665 Mk IXs, and 1,054 Mk XVIs) had been built.

[Kemble Pitts]

Parent Company was Vickers-Armstrongs, common error is to leave off the final 's' (as above).

[Asturias56]

II know - some of my mother's family were Armstrongs men

[POBJOY]

Yes Aust55 Wiki does confirm 'some' of the issues especially the first part re the design not being 'production friendly' and the workforce element. The 'Ten in June' were in fact more like kits sent up from Southampton, and by then Beaverbrook had read the riot act and put Supermarines in charge. However it does not answer the question of why in 39 they had not grasped the serious of the situation and put an aviation company in charge even if it was not Vickers themselves. It has to be said that Hawkers had prepared very well for the forthcoming conflict by gearing up for more Hurricanes than the actual ministry order, which was just as well after the losses in France. Anyway going back to Chattis Hill (Stockbridge) I use to drive past the location for years en route to the West Country and knew nothing of its location due to the entrance road name 'Love Lane' , It has been changed now to Spitfire Lane. The original WW1 airfield was on the right hand side going 'up' the lane and the wood at the top are where the hangars were located (base's still evident) . The field on the left was used to fly out the assembled machines.

[longer ron]

Like you Pobjoy - I used to drive past Chattis Hill regularly,it was one of my 3 alternative routes either between Old Sarum (Gliding) and home (w sussex) or B Down and home (W Sussex - in a later working life LOL),visited a few old airfields/locations over the years and checked many out from the air in my Libelle 201b which was based at O Sarum in the late 80's.

[POBJOY]

Like you Pobjoy - I used to drive past Chattis Hill regularly,it was one of my 3 alternative routes either between Old Sarum (Gliding) and home (w sussex) or B Down and home (W Sussex - in a later working life LOL),visited a few old airfields/locations over the years and checked many out from the air in my Libelle 201b which was based at O Sarum in the late 80's.

Did you realise that the place existed then !!! Do not get me started on Old Sarum, another wonderful location strangled to death. First visited in the 70's by Turbulent when it was home to an ATC gliding school and the Kestrel flying group (Beagle Pup I think) Compton still ok though.

[longer ron]

Did you realise that the place existed then !!! Do not get me started on Old Sarum, another wonderful location strangled to death. First visited in the 70's by Turbulent when it was home to an ATC gliding school and the Kestrel flying group (Beagle Pup I think) Compton still ok though.

Yes I did know about it - although I never actually walked the site for a variety of reasons,I was working weekday nights at the time and just driving between sussex and Sarum + some long x country flights left me with little spare energy for 'walkies' LOL
Yes great shame about Sarum - it was a lovely site to fly from although C Abbas would possibly have been a better thermal site if our GC had been allowed to stay/operate from there :(

[megan]

some of my mother's family were Armstrongs menPerhaps production was delayed by your armstrong men and their sabotage. :p I remember reading some thing written by an individual employed as an apprentice whose job was tightening bolts in the Spitfires spar and he kept snapping the bolts through over tightening. In those days they didn't have torque wrenches and instructions were to use a spanner of a stipulated length which was meant that the average person would torque to an adequate figure, not so with the armstrong men, or ladies I guess.

[longer ron]

I used to work for Hawker Squiddeley and one of the lighthearted sayings was ...

''Hawker Born Hawker Bred - Strong in the Arm,Weak in the Head'' :)

[POBJOY]

I used to work for Hawker Squiddeley and one of the lighthearted sayings was ...

''Hawker Born Hawker Bred - Strong in the Arm,Weak in the Head'' :)

Now Now L Ron When needed Hawkers have turned out the goods that actually worked :- Hurricanes (saved the day) Sea Fury ( Korea) Hunter (How long and how many Air Forces**) Harrier (Falklands and that amazing Atlantic race out of a 'coal yard'**) I know you are only joking but they have actually turned out some classics.
still going !!

[longer ron]

Just a bit of industrial Humour Pobjoy :)
Above the Rolls Royce Reps door in the Dunsfold Flight Shed could be seen a small old fashioned sign obviously purloined from somewhere - it read 'No Hawkers' :)
(would many people these days know the meaning of 'Hawkers' in its original context ? LOL

Above the Flight Shed Inspectors Office Door could be seen the sign ''If you can't do it - View it'' :).

I spent many years working on Hunters,Hawks and Harriers of various marks - none of which of course had been designed/built with the view of making them easy to work on LOL

[Auxtank]

Like you Pobjoy - I used to drive past Chattis Hill regularly,it was one of my 3 alternative routes either between Old Sarum (Gliding) and home (w sussex) or B Down and home (W Sussex - in a later working life LOL),visited a few old airfields/locations over the years and checked many out from the air in my Libelle 201b which was based at O Sarum in the late 80's.

There's long been local folklore that states there are good things buried in the ground at Chattis Hill as they couldn't be bothered to clear the site and return/ send parts/ components all over the country.
A pair of Merlins in their greased packing cases for starters. Metal detectors continue to search to this day.

[megan]

Hawker Born Hawker Bred - Strong in the Arm,Weak in the HeadWe Ozzies could take offense at that. :{ :p

[treadigraph]

Pretty sure the version I first heard was "Yorkshire born, Yorkshire bred..." but if I mention that I might get into trouble...

[Asturias56]

"There's long been local folklore that states there are good things buried in the ground at Chattis Hill as they couldn't be bothered to clear the site and return/ send parts/ components all over the country.
A pair of Merlins in their greased packing cases for starters. Metal detectors continue to search to this day."


God - there must so many of these stories - if true we could have won the war in 1943 with all the kit that was supposed to be buried....

Modern equivalent of Pirate Treasure or the Holy Grail

[chevvron]

God - there must so many of these stories - if true we could have won the war in 1943 with all the kit that was supposed to be buried....

Modern equivalent of Pirate Treasure or the Holy Grail
A long time ago, late '50s I would guess, a friend of mine was sent in to North Coates to help clear the buildings out prior to it becoming a Bloodhound SAM base.
There was a small padlocked hangar there and the SNCO i/c directed that the padlock be 'removed'. On opening, it was found to be stacked up with Beaufighter toolkits (that's the word he used 'toolkits') so as they weren't on inventory and couldn't be accounted for, the SNCO directed my friend and others to dig a hole and bury them!

[megan]

When a staff officer to the boss received a request from a Hong Kong organisation who were looking for a Griffon in their restoration of a Spitfire, asking around among the old crusty CPO's was told some had been disposed of in the rubbish tip on scrapping of the Firefly's. Far too deep down to generate any interest.

[POBJOY]

When a staff officer to the boss received a request from a Hong Kong organisation who were looking for a Griffon in their restoration of a Spitfire, asking around among the old crusty CPO's was told some had been disposed of in the rubbish tip on scrapping of the Firefly's. Far too deep down to generate any interest.

When the Nimrods replaced the Shacks at SM there would have been lots of stuff around that nobody had any further use for.
Some years later a Firefly project popped up at St Merryn, and the owner was offered a crated Griffon which had been 'found' at SM, and needed to be disposed of !!!

[R6915]

Referring to Asturias56 post August 22nd. I respond with great respect. If you have quoted Wikipedia verbatim I suggest in some respects the extract is correct but in others it is not. I will mention a couple of details where I hold a different perspective.

The Castle Bromwich factory that Lord Nuffield commenced for the government in 1938 did not make good progress and I think your description of that infamous phone call is accurate. The Beaverbrook V Nuffield telephone battle did happen but the first 10 Spitfires that came out of the CB factory some of us now accept they were Woolston built Mark l aircraft – NOT Mark ll and CB constructed.

Before September 1939 the government of the day allowed both Hawkers with the Hurricane and Supermarine with the Spitfire to accept contracts from a small number of UK friendly foreign governments for building under the designs under license and or for export sale. One Spitfire each was ordered by both Poland and France and Turkey ordered twelve. These were all completed and the Polish and French aircraft despatched. The French example was tested in France and there is a photo extant showing it partly disassembled in France when the airfield was over run by invading forces. The Polish one could not be unloaded from the ship and eventually it seems it probably came back to the UK. No one seems too certain!

The Turkish dozen were taken to Christchurch Dorset and export crated ready for sea dispatch when the Air Ministry stopped the shipment. They returned to Woolston or Eastleigh, for the Turkish changes to be reversed. The twelve Mark l Spitfires went to Castle Bromwich on the back of Supermarine's large flat back Thorneycroft lorry driven by one Mr. Ernie Grimes. We are fairly certain that two were disassembled and used as CB factory display patterns for the new CB staff to more quickly understand how the Spitfire was assembled from parts arriving from subcontractors across the Midlands and beyond.

There’s no documentary evidence for the twelve Spitfires. The information came to light verbally about 16 years ago when an old Supermarine employee and friend of mine bumped into Mr Grimes in Winchester and asked if he did indeed take the aircraft up to CB? He said yes, but was told never to mention it. Thus the published June 1940 CB production total of 10 (Mark l aircraft) entered into the statistics as the first Mark ll Spitfires.



Vickers-Armstrong's, (I’ll refer to them as V-A) you mention and bearing in mind that they purchased Supermarines in 1928, some say to acquire R.J. Mitchell! By 1937 the Brooklands V-A factory workers (aided and abetted by the Unions) were getting resentful of that minnow company in their company group ‘stealing’ their work, as they viewed it! V-A at Brooklands did produce a small single seat fighter prototype design prompted by the early outline specification F5/30. By 1936 after a series of developing specifications from the Air Ministry the Spitfire and Hurricane emerged. The Brooklands built Vickers Venom with a Bristol Aquila engine of 625 HP emerged as a result of that Air Ministry specification F.5/34. When tested the Venom did not reach design expectations and development ceased. V-A then concentrated on building the Wellington and the Wellesley for the RAF.

To placate the work force (and Unions) at Brooklands, V-A insisted that some of the Spitfire subcontract work should be placed with the Brooklands workshops. It included Spitfire undercarriage legs. The design was not difficult to produce but Brooklands had problem after problem with it and they were delivered too slowly and well outside the contract time. This was one of a number of contributory reasons that the Spitfire was late in going to the RAF. My father worked at Brooklands at that time and told me about this .

Lastly it is worth remembering that whilst Spitfires were built at CB in vast numbers, Woolston continued and there were satellite sites at Reading , at Salisbury (2700?) and other locations in southern England. Westland's produced Mark l and V's at Yeovil in quantity as well as Seafires.

To get an idea of the Supermarine’s management decisions and much more from 1926 a book, Never A Dull Moment, by Denis Le P Webb although it is slightly flawed in places. Published by JKH Publishing. Also two books written by C.R. Russell Spitfire Odyssey and Spitfire Postscript. Curil Russell worked as a ‘wheeler’ from March 1936 on the ‘shop floor’ at Woolston and moved around around the satellite factories in the south of England during WW2. This is a complex topic but Never A Dull Moment may help clear some the myriad of questions about this pre-war era.

[jolihokistix]

Dowding remained ever thankful for Beaverbrook’s ability to get things moving and they stayed warm friends after the war.

[POBJOY]

Thanks R6915 for that it just shows how good Prune is for digging out that detail that never went into print or a book. I did hear that there were 'issues' with the workforce and Unions and that Beaverbrooks 'riot act' included talk of 'conscription' if matters were not settled.
Until then Supermarine and Vickers had no responsibility for the CB situation, but they certainly got things moving once the were asked. Also Sir Richard Fairey spelt out the problem very clearly and as an 'independent' observer his opinion was taken seriously thank goodness.

[tdracer]

This thread got me thinking - I was aware of the 'dispersed' manufacture of Spits during the early part of the war thanks to the (previously mentioned) TV program I watched a while back. However, at least now days, Rolls is centered in Derby. Was Rolls engine building significantly impacted by the Battle of Britain and the air war that followed? Or was Derby far enough north to be out of ready range of the German bombers?

[POBJOY]

This thread got me thinking - I was aware of the 'dispersed' manufacture of Spits during the early part of the war thanks to the (previously mentioned) TV program I watched a while back. However, at least now days, Rolls is centered in Derby. Was Rolls engine building significantly impacted by the Battle of Britain and the air war that followed? Or was Derby far enough north to be out of ready range of the German bombers?

I consider Hookers book (Not much of an engineer) a 'must read' for several reasons, and covers a fair slice of the Derby production plus the shadow and American input.
The BoB versions would have been Derby built. Another cracking inside info source is a series of Tech based book series by the Rolls Royce Heritage Trust.
Merlins are covered in No2 The Merlin in perspective by AHB, No 9 Rolls Royce and the Mustang, There are several publications in the series covering Rolls history. Well worth the effort in tracking them down.

[jolihokistix]

Nothing to do with the price of fish, but does anyone remember this, St Hitla’s vs Biggin Hill?


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/985x1280/efa1cf5e_b361_4641_955f_db2d90b5b4cf_f6e746638512f221960cf74 1f4efb0d6cd5935ba.jpeg

[treadigraph]

Never seen that before Joli, looks a hoot, any more info please?

[jolihokistix]

@Treaders. It’s a sort of “1066 and all that” version of the B of B.

The Boys’ Own Battle of Britain, by Peter Cross. 1989
ISBN 1 85145 378 4

Page copied purely for educational purposes!

[jolihokistix]

Well done! Hope you enjoy it as I have.

PS Look out for this over the jewel of Southern Scotland tomorrow afternoon.

Educational picture thanks to Warbird Aviation
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x667/3dfd9ba4_fbd4_4b65_91d3_dcedaccc1e53_9bc95f224c469f076c549c9 a9eb2ca83aabaf438.jpeg

[jolihokistix]

Quick update with many thanks for the extra efforts made by all those concerned! Beyond the call of duty.

From a fly on the wall!


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/26fdd9ec_d294_4c78_93fa_a94a96fa3cc8_23e843218d76fa858eac9ff 76c1e37a56ca0054f.jpeg

[India Four Two]

Nice photo jolihokistix (https://www.pprune.org/members/375892-jolihokistix), but a question has just occurred to me. Why would you put invasion stripes on an aircraft that was painted to be essentially invisible?

[jolihokistix]

Good question, I-42!

[megan]

The invasion stripes were a last minute addition to avoid friendly fire and applied to all aircraft from C-47, P-38, P-47, Typhoon etc etc even applied to some captured German aircraft that were under test, Bomber Command and heavy bombers of the 8th Air Force were exempt. The scheme was approved on May 17, 1944, but the troop carriers were not given the order to paint until June 3rd while other aircraft got the order the following day, so only a day or two before the invasion. The late notice was so the Germans wouldn't be wondering what's up.

[treadigraph]

You can hear that Griffon... marvellous!

[jolihokistix]

Bonus shot then in thanks.
Credit: VisitMoffat

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/807x403/6d4d472f_ea66_4b23_80f1_dcfef8e6266b_80ebda596f373bc557d416d c7c8ac74acc88b5eb.jpeg