Unreported light aircraft accident

[ETOPS]

I saw this information from the AAIB yesterday and realised that there must have been a serious accident..

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/accident-involving-an-aircraft-south-of-taunton-12-august-2021

Looking around the news - both national and local - there didn't appear to be any coverage. My interest being various aquaintances who fly in that area.
As reporters are normally onto events like this pretty quickly I wondered what was going on?

[treadigraph]

Press probably busy being distracted by events in Plymouth. Maybe no injuries(hopefully) or even serious damage but a potential airworthiness issue requiring the AAIB's attendance?

[EGTE]

I heard Cap.10 G-BXBU calling Dunkeswell for assistance "stuck in cloud" en-route to Watchford Farm airfield yesterday morning.
A few minutes later it appeared on virtual radar squawking 7700 at around 7000 ft.
The pilot contacted Exeter Radar and was given instructions to descend to 2600ft and turn on to a heading of 220 degrees which would take the aircraft towards Exeter for a landing.
The aircraft was seen to descend to 2500ft on virtual radar - but the heading did not change and it appeared to continue on a north-easterly track until the plot disappeared from VR.
Exeter Radar called the aircraft several times as did two other aircraft but there seemed to be no response.
The cloud base at Exeter was around 500ft at the time so Dunkeswell, and probably Watchford Farm, would have been well into the murk.

While this was happening there were 2 Red Arrows Hawks circling East Devon. Red 5 had an undercarriage problem. Exeter were preparing for the Hawk to make a precautionary landing.
Exeter ATC had a busy morning!

[ETOPS]

Oh dear that doesn’t sound good - Taunton is Northeast of Exeter…:(

[Jonty]

Sky news is reporting 2POB, no survivors.

RIP

[ETOPS]

Yes - very sad.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-58194887

[EGTE]

What a tragic outcome. RIP.

[Dan Dare]

It can be hard to have death on frequency even if you don’t see the gory bits in full technicolour so best wishes to Exeter ATC and a reminder to seek CISM or other diffusing mechanisms.

[JM926]

Heard this begin to unfold on guard as he put out his pan call. Was at 7500ft at that point, stuck above the cloud base. Presumably with little/no experience IMC. Tragic for everyone and their families

[robin]

The full story will come out in due course, but the weather was cr*p - we couldn't see the Reds depart Exeter due to low cloud and poor viz. I would have thought Exeter would have been the safest option, but from the trace, they don't seem to have tried. Very sad outcome and a lesson for the future.

[Kilcott]

Buckland St Mary is a few miles east of Watchford Farm
Flightaware shows 3 minutes plotting when it was at 4,200 feet & 207 mph, which suggests rapid descent for a Cap-10
Also FlightRadar showed a descent rate of 3,000fpm
LOC in IMC

[Jonty]

Get your IR(R) boys and girls, it will save your life one day.

[Fostex]

and fit an auto-pilot with a wing leveller as a minimum. That will decrease workload massively on entering IMC.

[Whopity]

I am intrigued how nothing as been heard about this incident in the past 10 days. An Urgency call that goes wrong, that must have implications for ATC. Nothing in the press, no names locations etc!

[Genghis the Engineer]

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/266686

G

[alfaman]

I am intrigued how nothing as been heard about this incident in the past 10 days. An Urgency call that goes wrong, that must have implications for ATC. Nothing in the press, no names locations etc!
Curious about what you mean by the emboldened phrase?

[treadigraph]

AAIB report here (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/643e408722ef3b000c66f3aa/Mudry_Cap_10B_G-BXBU_06-23.pdf)...

:(

[RichardJones]

Thread drift here but very relevant to the topic.
There is one way and one way only if you have no choice but to fly in cloud to get down, for example. You dont need the required IF instruments or IR rated for this. Anyone know?
I await a response with interest. I'll give it a while, if the correct answer is not forth coming I will tell you. This action is not taught at flying schools that I am aware of.
This action could have saved their lives and countless others also I am convinced..
I tried to extract a response to this question years ago. I was dismayed it took so long.

[Maoraigh1]

Some aircraft will not maintain a steady descent if trimmed, then left hands-off. The Jodel DR1050s would enter a spiral dive when tried in VMC. At least the 3:examples I flew.

[RichardJones]

Thread drift here but very relevant to the topic.
There is one way and one way only if you have no choice but to fly in cloud to get down, for example. You dont need the required IF instruments or IR rated for this. Anyone know?
I await a response with interest. I'll give it a while, if the correct answer is not forth coming I will tell you. This action is not taught at flying schools that I am aware of.
This action could have saved their lives and countless others also I am convinced..
I tried to extract a response to this question years ago. I was dismayed it took so long.

Some aircraft will not maintain a steady descent if trimmed, then left hands-off. The Jodel DR1050s would enter a spiral dive when tried in VMC. At least the 3:examples I flew.

Hands off. There is a hint there

[biscuit74]

Thread drift here but very relevant to the topic.
There is one way and one way only if you have no choice but to fly in cloud to get down, for example. You dont need the required IF instruments or IR rated for this. Anyone know?
I await a response with interest. I'll give it a while, if the correct answer is not forth coming I will tell you. This action is not taught at flying schools that I am aware of.
This action could have saved their lives and countless others also I am convinced..
I tried to extract a response to this question years ago. I was dismayed it took so long.

Is this the " Fly a Southerly heading maintaining wings level, using compass to determine if you are turning?"

If I recall, this should be the only heading on which a magnetic compass swings the correct way at start of a turn, i.e.., when first starting to bank. Not sure if that would work at light aircraft speeds, even in a CAP 10. I believe it was demonstrated as useful for a military jet deecent, way back when.

[First_Principal]

...I await a response with interest. I'll give it a while, if the correct answer is not forth coming I will tell you. This action is not taught at flying schools that I am aware of.
This action could have saved their lives and countless others also I am convinced...

So, IF this action of yours could save lives why not just spit it out now?! In the interim people could be losing said lives while you're playing games and 'giving it a while' :rolleyes:

Otherwise sad to read of this event, and the various ways the ultimate end could possibly have been avoided. While there appear to be shortcomings with the ATC response, and recognising the probable cognitive overload of the pilot, it begs the question as to whether a more informative/assertive response from the pilot would have been useful?

To tease that out a little more - is there a case to formulate (in training and refresher) a slightly more detailed statement by pilots in such a situation, and/or a specific squawk code for unrated a/c or pilot in IMC? Not wanting to add to the overload, but had there been such training perhaps the pilot may have been better able to respond to ATC's suggestion of an ILS + SRA approach?

FP.

[RichardJones]

Ok.
You have one chance and one chance only. Use the inherent stability of the Aircraft.
- Carb Heat on, throttle back to approx 1500 RPM
- Trim for approx 70 A/S. Depending on type of course.
- FEET OFF THE RUDDERS!! and leave them off!
- Ailerons central and keep them central.wheel or stick central.

Only instrument needed is ASI
Try it for yourself. Sure the aircraft will wallow around etc. but will get you down.
DID I SAY FEET OFF THE RUDDERS?

[jumpseater]

Otherwise sad to read of this event, and the various ways the ultimate end could possibly have been avoided. While there appear to be shortcomings with the ATC response, and recognising the probable cognitive overload of the pilot, it begs the question as to whether a more informative/assertive response from the pilot would have been useful?


FP.

As the pilot was likely maxed out the assertive response was potentially over ruled by the ‘im with D&D tfft’ placebo effect.

A quick ’fix’ might be for RT training to emphasise with the PAN/MAYDAY first contact pass your details response, that ‘VFR only/IFR capable’ or a suitable simple phrase is added. That way an ATCO knows on first contact the criteria the air system is operating to. A simple procedure like that might have blocked a hole in the Swiss cheese in this instance.

[OvertHawk]

As the pilot was likely maxed out the assertive response was potentially over ruled by the ‘im with D&D tfft’ placebo effect.

A quick ’fix’ might be for RT training to emphasise with the PAN/MAYDAY first contact pass your details response, that ‘VFR only/IFR capable’ or a suitable simple phrase is added. That way an ATCO knows on first contact the criteria the air system is operating to. A simple procedure like that might have blocked a hole in the Swiss cheese in this instance.

The D&D controllers are usually pretty switched on to that kind of question

The confusion appears to have come between D&D and Exeter ATC.

D&D thought Exeter were asking to be given the aircraft and therefore aware of the situation, when in fact they were just asking about its impact on other emergency traffic they were already working.

The controller assigned the aircraft thought that it had requested a divert to Exeter and was aware of the weather thus assumed that it was IFR capable.

(The above is my take from having skimmed the report rather than read it word for word - so if i'm mistaken then i apologise).

All very sad and I have sympathy for the controllers involved.

OH

[First_Principal]

... DID I SAY FEET OFF THE RUDDERS?

Given a significant number of pilots don't know what rudder pedals are for this might be the default response anyway :} Not a bad idea in some situations perhaps, although you'd want to ensure your a/c was rigged well, and not inclined to deviate in this configuration.

...A quick ’fix’ might be for RT training to emphasise with the PAN/MAYDAY first contact pass your details response, that ‘VFR only/IFR capable’ ...

Good idea, this is short and to the point and, if trained well, would hopefully survive significant cognitive noise.

[megan]

This action is not taught at flying schools that I am aware ofThere is good reason it's not taught, Maoraigh has provided the clue. I've picked myself up laughing from the floor long enough to give the thoughts of a long time aviation lecturer/teacher/author.It's not just a matter of being stable or unstable. There are degrees of stability. All civil aircraft are designed to be strongly stable in the yawing plane (directional stability), moderately stable in the pitching plane (longitudinal stability) and weakly stable in the rolling plane (lateral stability).

This is a deliberate design characteristic because the other side of the coin is manoeuvrability. Whereas stability is the resistance to change, manoeuvrability is the willingness to change. We don't want the aircraft to resist any attempt to make it roll, but we would like to be happy to maintain direction without the need for constant rudder input.

I'm afraid you wont be able to 'hands off' for long before the aircraft will begin to bank one way or the other. That was the designer's intention.

If the banking tendency is left unattended the bank will continue to increase and then the side-slip will induce a yaw towards the dropping wing. With no control input from the pilot, a spiral dive will result.

[RichardJones]

There is good reason it's not taught, Maoraigh has provided the clue. I've picked myself up laughing from the floor long enough to give the thoughts of a long time aviation lecturer/teacher/author.

Let me assist in trying to pick you up from the floor.
The aim of my input was to a student or any pilot for that matter, including closed mind know it alls. (The day we stop learning is the day we give up). About how an aircraft if left alone, without pilot interference will fly itself. Goodness me a paper paper glider, trimmed will glide. So why not a trimmed A/C? Sure it will not fly straight, but it will remain flying. I.e., not stall out. That's what kills, the vertical deceleration.. No pilot control input, is better than a WRONG pilot input.
oh and on the subject of credentials, me, 20k hours TT, made up of instructing, ag flying. Bush flying, airline. A lot of types. including heavy 4 engine jets, B747 included. Stuff you dont learn in a classroom. Well retired. Dont have a closed mind but seek solutions. Think before you criticise, or ridicule.

[megan]

I.e., not stall out. That's what kills, the vertical decelerationYou've got me, what is this vertical deceleration you talk about?

[treadigraph]

You've got me, what is this vertical deceleration you talk about?
Coming out of the bottom of a thunder cloud in several pieces?

[RichardJones]

Coming out of the bottom of a thunder cloud in several pieces?

Vertical deceleration? Well let's take the EFATO scenario. Turn back, and stall. You die basically. Land ahead. Even if you have obstructions that are unavoidable, you have a good survival chance if the aircraft is under control, I.e. not stalled = high vertical speed. Under control you will do damage, loose wings etc. That will absorb energy of course, however the survival chances are very high. Less vertical deceleration. Stall out is slang for STALLED. OUT of control.

Granted, there are exceptions and variations in weather. Would you be near a T/S in s light A/C?.
However, If one is caught out on top, low on fuel possibly, and having to get down, with all other options exhausted. If you're in it (thick Cloud) you have go get out of it. Last chance saloon. This knowledge may come in handy. How many times have we read that on accident reports?

I am no academic, as you will realise by my writing skills, however I do know a little about aviation. I am also an innovator. I hold a patent.

Fly safe.

[megan]

Vertical deceleration? Well let's take the EFATO scenario. Turn back, and stall. You die basically. Land ahead.I absolutely hate to draw your attention to the fact that the discussion is not about EFATO, it's about your, This action is not taught at flying schools that I am aware of

[pilotmike]

You've got me, what is this vertical deceleration you talk about?
Impact with the ground - obviously!

[RichardJones]

Impact with the ground - obviously!

Thankyou!!🙏🙏

[megan]

Getting back to the propositionYou have one chance and one chance only. Use the inherent stability of the Aircraft.
- Carb Heat on, throttle back to approx 1500 RPM
- Trim for approx 70 A/S. Depending on type of course.
- FEET OFF THE RUDDERS!! and leave them off!
- Ailerons central and keep them central.wheel or stick central.

Only instrument needed is ASI
Try it for yourself. Sure the aircraft will wallow around etc. but will get you down.
DID I SAY FEET OFF THE RUDDERS? it fails to address spiral instability. Spiral instability exists when the static directional stability of the airplane is very strong as compared to the effect of its dihedral in maintaining lateral equilibrium. When the lateral equilibrium of the airplane is disturbed by a gust of air and a side slip is introduced, the strong directional stability tends to yaw the nose into the resultant relative wind while the comparatively weak dihedral lags in restoring the lateral balance. Due to this yaw, the wing on the outside of the turning moment travels forward faster than the inside wing and as a consequence, its lift becomes greater. This produces an over banking tendency which, if not corrected by the pilot, will result in the bank angle becoming steeper and steeper. At the same time, the strong directional stability that yaws the airplane into the relative wind is actually forcing the nose to a lower pitch attitude. Then, the start of a slow downward spiral which has begun, if not counteracted by the pilot, will gradually increase into a steep spiral dive.Usually the rate of divergence in the spiral motion is so gradual that the pilot can control the tendency without any difficulty.

All airplanes are affected to some degree by this characteristic although they may be inherently stable in all other normal parameters. This tendency would be indicated to the pilot by the fact that the airplane cannot be flown "hands off" indefinitely.

Much study and effort has gone into development of control devices (wing leveler) to eliminate or at least correct this instability. Advanced stages of this spiral condition demand that the pilot be very careful in application of recovery controls, or excessive loads on the structure may be imposed.

Of the in-flight structural failures that have occurred in general aviation airplanes, improper recovery from this condition has probably been the underlying cause of more fatalities than any other single factor. The reason is that the airspeed in the spiral condition builds up rapidly, and the application of back elevator force to reduce this speed and to pull the nose up only "tightens the turn," increasing the load factor. The results of the prolonged uncontrolled spiral are always the same; either in-flight structural failure, crashing into the ground, or both. The most common causes on record for getting into this situation are: loss of horizon reference, inability of the pilot to control the airplane by reference to instruments, or a combination of both.

An extract of an article written by Senior Editor Bill Cox of Plane & Pilot and Chief Pilot of an operation who as of January 1, 2016 has logged 15,100 flight hours in 321 types of aircraft. The Tri-Champ was, above all, ridiculously stable, and that helped to reinforce one of the great private pilot myths of all time.

Tell me you’ve never heard this advice or something resembling it from the instructor’s seat. “OK, now you’re over-controlling. This is an easy airplane to fly. It doesn’t require heavy control inputs in any axis. In fact, it has positive stability. It will fly better than you will. If you trim it properly in a bank or dive and let go of the stick, it will eventually recover to straight-and-level flight all by itself.”

The derivation of this particular brand of nonsense was Civil Aviation Authority Bulletin 32, and instructors took that advice as gospel. After all, it came from the Federal government, so how could it possibly be wrong?

Apparently, not many instructors took the time to test the premise, or they would have discovered in one test that most aircraft of the time were not that stable.

In fact, hardly any aircraft (if any at all) have the kind of positive stability necessary to fly themselves out of a date with disaster. Most of the time, the CG is constantly changing in flight as the aircraft burns off fuel, and lateral stability is especially susceptible to even a moderate wind gust.

The myth was exploded early on when the prestigious Cornell Aeronautical Laboratory of Ithaca, New York, suggested that lack of spiral stability in “the majority of general aviation airplanes!means that the tendency for the airplane to maintain a constant wings-level attitude, if left unattended, is at best marginal.” The Cornell study suggested “the aircraft will enter a turn in which the angle of attack slowly increases and the nose slowly drops with a resultant increase in airspeed! Once the spiral develops (unattended), the airplane will eventually fly into the ground in a spiral dive!.”

[RichardJones]

Getting back to the propositionit fails to address spiral instability. Spiral instability exists when the static directional stability of the airplane is very strong as compared to the effect of its dihedral in maintaining lateral equilibrium. When the lateral equilibrium of the airplane is disturbed by a gust of air and a side slip is introduced, the strong directional stability tends to yaw the nose into the resultant relative wind while the comparatively weak dihedral lags in restoring the lateral balance. Due to this yaw, the wing on the outside of the turning moment travels forward faster than the inside wing and as a consequence, its lift becomes greater. This produces an over banking tendency which, if not corrected by the pilot, will result in the bank angle becoming steeper and steeper. At the same time, the strong directional stability that yaws the airplane into the relative wind is actually forcing the nose to a lower pitch attitude. Then, the start of a slow downward spiral which has begun, if not counteracted by the pilot, will gradually increase into a steep spiral dive.Usually the rate of divergence in the spiral motion is so gradual that the pilot can control the tendency without any difficulty.

All airplanes are affected to some degree by this characteristic although they may be inherently stable in all other normal parameters. This tendency would be indicated to the pilot by the fact that the airplane cannot be flown "hands off" indefinitely.

Much study and effort has gone into development of control devices (wing leveler) to eliminate or at least correct this instability. Advanced stages of this spiral condition demand that the pilot be very careful in application of recovery controls, or excessive loads on the structure may be imposed.

Of the in-flight structural failures that have occurred in general aviation airplanes, improper recovery from this condition has probably been the underlying cause of more fatalities than any other single factor. The reason is that the airspeed in the spiral condition builds up rapidly, and the application of back elevator force to reduce this speed and to pull the nose up only "tightens the turn," increasing the load factor. The results of the prolonged uncontrolled spiral are always the same; either in-flight structural failure, crashing into the ground, or both. The most common causes on record for getting into this situation are: loss of horizon reference, inability of the pilot to control the airplane by reference to instruments, or a combination of both.

An extract of an article written by Senior Editor Bill Cox of Plane & Pilot and Chief Pilot of an operation who as of January 1, 2016 has logged 15,100 flight hours in 321 types of aircraft.

Forget all that. Think outside the box. I take you have a licence, so go try it for yourself!!!.

[punkalouver]

This seems like a situation that could been fairly easy to resolve, depending on the cloud at his high altitude when he called ATC. We know he reported being on top of cloud but cannot be sure if it was a large swath of good VFR on top conditions or not(it would have been nice for the air to get a pirep from the nearby military jet).

The pilot had decent flight experience at over 1000 hours. He also had options with 1.5 hours fuel stated to ATC(and depending on what power setting he based it on, could have been extended). All that need to have been done was to ask ATC about weather reports at nearby airports. There were airports within 1.5 hours that had very nice weather. A request for vectors would get him to a safe airport.

Even if an unavoidable cloud layer was encountered, I would suggest that it would likely be safer to penetrate IMC in cruise flight rather than what likely turned out to be a descent at a speed closer to the redline.

And even if he ended up out of non-IMC options with low fuel over an airport with an overcast layer combined with a cloud base that was not too low, he could have put his aerobatic plane in a spin and held it there until clear of the clouds, then recovered.

[Beakor]

Thread drift here but very relevant to the topic.
There is one way and one way only if you have no choice but to fly in cloud to get down, for example. You dont need the required IF instruments or IR rated for this. Anyone know?
I await a response with interest. I'll give it a while, if the correct answer is not forth coming I will tell you. This action is not taught at flying schools that I am aware of.
This action could have saved their lives and countless others also I am convinced..
I tried to extract a response to this question years ago. I was dismayed it took so long.

If you know the cloud base is high enough to recover below. If your aircraft is capable and you’re trained and confident enough to execute a recovery. Fly just above the cloud tops, reduce to stall speed, apply full pro spin aft stick and rudder. Hold full pro spin as you descend through cloud. Once visual below, apply spin recovery actions and recover from the nose low upset. Avoid hitting the ground. Plausible but I don’t think it’s fool proof.

[EXDAC]

Under US glider competition rules it is prohibited to have any sort of blind flying instrument. Both my standard class gliders had a stable spiral descent with hands off the stick, feet off the rudder pedals, and full air brake. So, certainly some aircraft can be safely descended in IMC if the primary controls are left alone.

I have not experimented with long term hands and feet off stability in the airplanes I have owned. I'm instrument rated and keep current so I'd rather fly on instruments.

From this accident report there appears to have been no reason for the pilot to have entered IMC. With 1.5 hours duration there was lots of time to come up with a better plan.

[421dog]

“And even if he ended up out of non-IMC options with low fuel over an airport with an overcast layer combined with a cloud base that was not too low, he could have put his aerobatic plane in a spin and held it there until clear of the clouds, then recovered.”

Per the report, Exeter was 500 BKN, 6 km.
Per this aircraft’s POH, it loses 400ft/turn in a perfectly executed spin when loaded to Aerobatic specifications (it wasn’t)

Tell us how that works for you.

On the other hand, the report also says the aircraft was equipped with a functional Bendix Attitude Indicator.
Maybe there was a better option…

[punkalouver]

“And even if he ended up out of non-IMC options with low fuel over an airport with an overcast layer combined with a cloud base that was not too low, he could have put his aerobatic plane in a spin and held it there until clear of the clouds, then recovered.”

Per the report, Exeter was 500 BKN, 6 km.
Per this aircraft’s POH, it loses 400ft/turn in a perfectly executed spin when loaded to Aerobatic specifications (it wasn’t)

Tell us how that works for you.

Maybe there was a better option…

The better option was finding out good weather airports from ATC and their distance from present position and then getting a vector toward it. That alone would likely have safely resolved the situation this pilot found himself in(at a high altitude above the clouds with low ceilings and vis).

I used the term IF for the spin scenario in my previous post......If a pilot with a likely inability to fly instruments safely were to discover they were over a good weather airport with a fairly high cloud base(say 1500 overcast and good vis), one could spin down through the cloud if they were low on fuel. Would take discipline to do it properly though. That is how it works for me.

[421dog]

So somebody with a thousand hrs that can’t keep the greasy side down through a couple of thousand feet of stratus clouds with the aid of a functional artificial horizon as well as all of the standard VFR instrumentation present in his aerobatic aircraft is going to be able to avoid disorientation in a spin in IMC sufficiently that he can miraculously recover not only his bearings, but also from a fully developed inside spin (not a “Cessna spiral dive”) that requires an active and correct control input, perfectly when he just happens to pop out in the clear.

Ok

[punkalouver]

So somebody with a thousand hrs that can’t keep the greasy side down through a couple of thousand feet of stratus clouds with the aid of a functional artificial horizon as well as all of the standard VFR instrumentation present in his aerobatic aircraft is going to be able to avoid disorientation in a spin in IMC sufficiently that he can miraculously recover not only his bearings, but also from a fully developed inside spin (not a “Cessna spiral dive”) that requires an active and correct control input, perfectly when he just happens to pop out in the clear.

Ok

Choose your risk.

Most pilots with a CAP 10 know how to do a spin very well. They usually didn’t buy it for gaining any instrument experience. Got some news for you. Active input for a spin(called holding it on the stops) ain’t that difficult.

One should keep in mind is that there are plenty of very good aerobatic pilots with no instrument experience who have done thousands of spins and can actually keep the greasy side up better than you ever could(when appropriate).

So yeah, it is quite possible with some pilots. Just do another spin like you did a hundred time previous in your CAP 10 and recover just like you did a hundred times previously.

Hmmmm. 421Dog is USA based. Scared of spins are we, after never having been trained how to do one?

OMG OMG

[megan]

Forget all that. Think outside the box. I take you have a licence, so go try it for yourself!!!.Didn't work in any I flew, Auster, Chipmunk, Tiger Moth, Victa, T-34, T-28, single Cessnas. Legendary Northwest Airlines Captain Paul Soderlind wrote,Case Study AThe airplane involved was a four-engine turboprop in airline cargo service.The only occupants were the captain, co-pilot, flight engineer, and a dead heading pilot in the jump seat. The captain and flight engineer were highly experienced and both had many hours in type. The co-pilot was relatively inexperienced but had received all required training and was certified and fully qualified.

The flight was cruising at 22,000 feet at night, between layers, in smooth air. The co-pilot was doing the flying, navigating, communicating — everything— and the flight engineer was attending to normal duties at his panel. (The captain’s activities are relevant to what happened, and will be discussed shortly.) To appreciate what happened to the flight during the next 30 seconds,look at this plot of data from the flight data recorder (FDR) and cockpit voice recorder (CVR):


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x449/ab966_05f6a531e47312dfcd5777ec435f034c0a604ad2.gif
Times of significant events (in seconds) are read against the horizontal scale at the bottom. The triangular symbols mark the time of relevant CVR comments and other key events. The FDR’s heading trace was inoperative.

The flight was entirely normal up to Time 08 (i.e., eight seconds into the plot above), and had been on autopilot in "altitude hold" mode for over 30 minutes. There were some earlier comments on the CVR about a problem with the co-pilot’s attitude indicator, but after switching its source to the captain’s vertical gyro, operation was normal. Here’s a transcript of the final 22 seconds of the CVR:

08.0 First departure from cruise altitude
13.4 "Altitude" — deviation from normal first noticed Unidentified voice, CAM?
16.0 "What’s happening here" Co-pilot’s voice, CAM2
17.6 Increasing wind noise (airspeed increasing)
17.9 "You got it?" Co-pilot’s voice, CAM2
21.0 "No" Captain’s voice, CAM1
24.0 Landing gear warning sounds begin -power levers pulled to IDLE
25.9 Overspeed warning sound begins
28.2 Sounds of structural breakup
29.8 "We’re dead" Unidentified voice, CAM?

NOTE: In the CVR transcript at left, "CAM" denotes cockpit area microphone. "CAM1" is on the left side of the cockpit, while "CAM2" is on the right side. "CAM?" denotes that the location from which a sound came was unidentified.

The first anomaly begin at Time 08 when the flight first departed from the altitude it had held for over 30 minutes, probably when the autopilot was disconnected. This wasn’t discovered for some six seconds as noted by the CAM?statement "Altitude" at Time 13.4. 1.9 seconds after the co-pilot said"What’s happening here?" he asks "You got it?" — presumably asking the captain if he had taken control of the aircraft. The captain’s"No" was without any particular inflection or concern in his voice.

The descent from Time 18 (Point A on the diagram) to Time 30 (Point B)averaged over 32,000 feet per minute, which is consistent with TDS characteristics.

Most shocking was that it took only 14 seconds to go from normal flight to structural breakup, in good weather and smooth air, with an experienced crew and no evidence of mechanical failure.

The fact that the co-pilot was the sole pilot flying/navigating/communicating was related to the captain’s probable activity during an extended period preceding the initial departure from cruise altitude. Specifically, other pilots this captain had flown with reported that he had a long-standing habit of reading what was euphemistically termed "non-operational material"while flying. Indeed, one could hear pages turning on the CVR recording.

The primary cause of this accident was "nobody watching the store,"a factor that has preceded every TDS incident on which relevant data is available. Complicating matters was a relatively inexperienced co-pilot getting no help from either the captain or the flight engineer.Case Study BAnother classic incident occurred in the earliest years of U.S. airline jet operations. A four-engine airliner — on a moonless night in smooth air over the ocean — got into TDS, diving from 36,000 feet to 6,000 feet before recovering.Recovery load factor exceeded 6g, and despite a wing spar that was permanently bent, the crew managed to land the aircraft successfully. This near-catastrophe started while the captain was in the passenger cabin, the co-pilot was doing paperwork, and the flight engineer and navigator were working behind an anti-glare curtain between themselves and the pilot stations. The captain (in the passenger cabin) was the first to realize something was amiss. The loss of control began shortly after the autopilot disconnected unexpectedly.

Another no-one-watching-the-store case.

After a detailed inspection by the manufacturer’s engineers, the airplane was declared structurally safe, and it went on to fly out the rest of its years without serious incident.Aerodynamic and Control Aspects of TDSThe basic problem is an airplane’s spiral mode, which is inherent in the airplane’s shape. Virtually all airplanes have weak spiral stability and "want"to start turning, however slowly. The typical airplane, if left unattended, will simply not go straight for long. To believe that it will implies that it has heading stability — i.e., once headed west, it will keep heading west. But it won’t. There’s no such thing as inherent heading stability.

Assume for the moment that:

the airplane is perfectly shaped

it is perfectly rigged

it is perfectly trimmed for straight-and-level cruise

fuel is perfectly balanced between left and right wings

if multi-engined, power is perfectly balanced between left and right sides

there is not a hint of the slightest wind shear

the air is smoother than a mouse’s tummy


You will never find such perfection in the real world, but let’s pretend it’s all true for purposes of the discussion that follows.

With a perfect airplane in perfect conditions and nobody attending to the controls, one could conceivably continue straight and level for several minutes,but more likely the time is measured in seconds. In any case, sooner or later a wing will drop — it may be either left or right, the direction being entirely random. When the wing drops, the nose will go down and the airspeed will increase — just a little if the bank angle is small. But with one wing down,the airplane will start to turn. The higher wing being on the outside of the turn is moving faster than the lower wing, producing more lift, causing bank angle to increase, the nose to drop further, airspeed increase even more … and on and on, the situation feeding on itself … a "vicious spiral" in more ways that one.

Once the turn starts, one of two things will happen if the turn is not stopped.Case 1. The Stable SpiralWhen a wing drops, the airplane will begin to turn, the nose will go down and the airspeed will increase. After a relatively short time, airspeed will stop increasing and remain a few knots above the original trim speed, and bank angle will remain constant at 20 to 30 or so. The spiral has reached a stable mode and the airplane will continue in a descending turn as long as altitude remains.Case 2. The Unstable SpiralOnce the turn starts, airspeed and bank angle will continue to increase, a stable state will never be reached, and the spiral ultimately will develop into a near-vertical dive at airspeed and bank angle far beyond all normal limits. Our "perfect" airplane — perfectly rigged, trimmed, etc. — will usually go "all the way" no matter which wing drops initially. (No two airplanes, even if they are of exactly the same type, will react exactly the same.)

Now so far, we’ve been discussing a "perfect" airplane flying in"perfect" conditions. Neither of these ever occur in the real world,where secondary effects make things worse.

Consider the airplane with only a "bendable" rudder tab adjusted to counter "torque" in cruise. (Never mind that the turning tendency that pilots often refer to as "torque" is not torque at all … that’s a discussion for another time.) Though the tab has been adjusted to offset the left-turning tendency attributable to "torque," it will do so only for one particular combination of altitude, power, indicated airspeed, etc. With any other condition, the tab’s anti-turning force will no longer balance the"torque" and a turn will start. The same is true with cockpit-adjustable rudder trim. Anything that unbalances the airplane — a tiny fuel or power imbalance, for example — will require the trim to be readjusted.Such a small imbalance almost always will go unnoticed by the crew until the airplane reacts by starting to turn, at which point the trim is readjusted.

But what if it’s not readjusted? Will the airplane enter a stable spiral or an unstable spiral? Let’s take another look.

When our airplane is cruising serenely along in smooth air, two opposing turning forces are at work — "torque" tending to turn the airplane left, and the rudder tab tending to turn it right. What happens then depends on which of the opposing turning forces is dominant. If, for example, power increases (a temperature decrease can cause that) and if nothing else is changed, the increased torque becomes dominant and the airplane wants to turn left. But if power is reduced, the effect of rudder trim becomes dominant and the airplane wants to turn right. If the right wing drops first, the increased airspeed strengthens the right-turning effect of the tab and the airplane goes "all the way." If the left wing drops first, the tab’s right-turning forces will dominate when speed increases, and the airplane will reach the stable mode.

Every airplane has a built-in turning tendency — even brand new ones —usually due to miss rig or miss trim in roll or yaw or both. The initial turning tendency is usually small, usually difficult to detect at first, and extremely difficult to isolate the specific underlying cause. The onset is usually insidious, beginning very slowly, usually with little or no seat-of-the-pants clues strong enough to alert an inattentive pilot that something’s awry. An airplane cannot suddenly "snap" into a spiral unless it’s grossly out-of-trim in the yaw or roll axis. Nevertheless, a well-developed spiral often develops with astonishing rapidity, as we saw in our first case study where it took only 14 seconds for a large transport aircraft to go from controlled flight to structural breakup.

The only true "cure" for TDS is avoidance, avoidance, avoidance.Someone must be watching continuously what’s going on, and be prepared to initiate recovery from an incipient spiral without delay.Recovering from TDSOne widely published recovery procedure involves seven steps, several of which are either unnecessary or can actually be detrimental. Considering the time-critical circumstances under which it might be needed, a seven-step procedure is far too complicated. There is a better one, and it involves only a single step:Level the wings with slow, gentle rudder pressure, keeping hands off the controls.Applying rudder produces yaw, which produces roll, and the airplane will unbank. Relax rudder pressure as the wings approach level, then continue to hold them level with the rudder only. Keep hands off the yoke or stick. Do not fret that aileron and rudder are not coordinated in the recovery — coordination is unnecessary.

As the wings begin to unbank, the nose will come up. There is no need to apply back pressure to recover from the dive. The nose will come up by itself with no great increase in load factor (i.e., g force). If the airplane was intrim at a reasonable airspeed before the spiral began, it will return to the same airspeed by itself … provided the pilot doesn’t interfere by applying pitch inputs!

When the nose comes up, it will momentarily overshoot the original attitude,then pitch down again. This pitch-up-pitch-down cycle will continue, the pitch excursions decreasing with each cycle (engineers call this a "phugoid oscillation") until the airspeed settles down at or within a few knots of the original trim speed. (This assumes, of course, that the airplane was trimmed to a reasonable airspeed before the spiral began, and that the C.G. is within established limits.)

The airplane will "take care of itself" in pitch. It"wants" to seek and hold the airspeed (actually, angle of attack) that it had been trimmed to. Its natural speed-keeping stability will return it to that speed. Let it do so on its own.

Every pilot should get an appropriate demonstration from a knowledgeable instructor that:

the airplane will begin a turn if allowed to fly hands-off

the bank angle and airspeed will increase once the turn starts

the rudder-only, hands-off-the-yoke procedure will work admirably to recover


A Caution to Pilots and InstructorsFor a realistic, conservative and safe demonstration, allow the airplane only to begin a spiral dive. Don’t let the bank angle increase beyond 25to 30 and don’t let the airspeed get anywhere near redline. Begin at least5,000 feet above the terrain, since the demonstration will take you both below and above the initial altitude. Do the demonstration in smooth air — other wise any gustiness or shear may hide the true effects of the spiral mode. If a spiral dive is allowed to get too steep — meaning with excessive airspeed — the recovery pitch oscillations would be quite large at first, and in the first pitch-up the airspeed may drop to near the stall. Not to worry, the airplane will not stall, though you might get a temporary beep or two from the stall warning system. Excessive airspeed must be avoided, and the demonstration can be accomplished effectively without getting to a high airspeed.

As with all simulated emergency procedures, caution is the word.Summary

An airplane left on its own will sooner or later begin to turn, and airspeed and bank angle will increase. All other factors being reasonably normal, a spiral cannot develop to a dangerous degree suddenly, but it can do so more rapidly than many pilots might imagine … in a matter of seconds.

Avoidance is the best medicine. A dangerous spiral cannot develop if someone is continuously "watching the store." This is the only guaranteed method of TDS avoidance. Do not depend on an "unsupervised" autopilot, since it may disconnect unexpectedly, and the disconnection may go unnoticed until a dangerous spiral has developed.

If a spiral develops, use the single-step recovery procedure: Level the wings with slow, gentle rudder pressure, and keep hands off the controls.

[RichardJones]

Posted by me under a different alias. Got banned, didn't I.

https://www.pprune.org/flying-instructors-examiners/351973-question-ab-initio-instructors.html?highlight=Question+Instructors

[421dog]

Choose your risk.

Most pilots with a CAP 10 know how to do a spin very well. They usually didn’t buy it for gaining any instrument experience. Got some news for you. Active input for a spin(called holding it on the stops) ain’t that difficult.

One should keep in mind is that there are plenty of very good aerobatic pilots with no instrument experience who have done thousands of spins and can actually keep the greasy side up better than you ever could(when appropriate).

So yeah, it is quite possible with some pilots. Just do another spin like you did a hundred time previous in your CAP 10 and recover just like you did a hundred times previously.

Hmmmm. 421Dog is USA based. Scared of spins are we, after never having been trained how to do one?

OMG OMG

Lots of aerobatic time in everything from aerobats to extras. Been spinning since primary training in the ‘80’s.

Feel no need to be insulting, but I feel that your (IMHO, very irresponsible) suggestion of how to get through a cloud deck in an emergency might be taken to heart by someone who is stuck, and it will most likely get them killed.

I wasn’t talking about active input to get or keep an aircraft in a spin, I was talking about the fact that an aircraft that will truly spin and is in a fully developed spin, will keep doing so even if no control inputs are made until an active input is made to make it fly again. In the Cap 10 (which really spins) in question, it will recover with stick in pro or anti (slower spin , anti spin, slower recovery, faster spin, faster recovery, greater rate of descent pro spin) turn, but will lose less altitude with the stick neutral. It won’t stop spinning without rudder input to stop the rotation, and appropriate nose down attitude (according to the POH)

[RichardJones]

While we are on the subject of spinning. If in a glider and severe turbulence, wave for eg, is encountered., spinning may be the only way out, unless you want to pull the wings off. Spin. All 3 axises are in motion and a/s remains constant, as we all are aware.

[sycamore]

Just a refresh for those of us `over here`,- TDS..?

[treadigraph]

Just a refresh for those of us `over here`,- TDS..?
The Death Spiral (I assume).

[421dog]

Just a refresh for those of us `over here`,- TDS..?

with respect to treadigraph (who is certainly correct and in no way holding myself out as any sort of an engineer), an equally apt (and possibly serendipitous, relative to this discussion) answer might be “Time Delay Systems”. (Just helped my kid through his second semester of Diffeq, and delayed differential equations were pretty much the most complex stuff I ever did in school, so the little sh!ts on his own now). Would be a good introduction though, as to why things that are supposed to be inherently stable sometimes aren’t.

[421dog]

Just out of curiosity (because I never have) Has anyone here ever actually spun an airplane with his eyes closed, under the hood, or in imc? [not in a sim]?

Was right seat in a P-35 Bonanza in 1986 when the PF stalled it (with a flipover yoke on a dark night above an overcast at 18k ft) and, while the PF started to pull (and the airspeed wrapped around 40 KIAS > zero) I reached over, pulled the power and dropped the gear from my non-control position.

All I was worried about was not having the tail fall off,(and, as it happened, it didn’t even screw up the gear doors)

[megan]

Just out of curiosity (because I never have) Has anyone here ever actually spun an airplane with his eyes closed, under the hood, or in imcYes, Chipmunk under the hood on limited panel, recovered from the spin ok but everything following was a balls up, had only an hour or two of instrument time at the time.Just a refresh for those of us `over here`,- TDS..?The Death Spiral as posted by treaders.

[rob_ginger]

Not a pilot, but an electrical engineer with an interest in aviation: I'm really interested to know how stable various aircraft types are in the roll and yaw axis. I can understand an aerobatic trainer like the CAP10 would be designed with low stability so it can be thrown around. But what about a high-wing Cessna, or for that matter a big transport aircraft like the 747 or A380? From some of the quotes above (e.g. Paul Sodelind) the pilot only has seconds to respond to a slight wing drop before a steeper and steeper turn develops. I'm surprised that any big passenger aircraft could even get certified if it was so unstable that it wouldn't fly hands off for a while (say, more than 30 seconds or so), and even return itself to level flight??

[punkalouver]

I feel that your (IMHO, very irresponsible) suggestion of how to get through a cloud deck in an emergency might be taken to heart by someone who is stuck, and it will most likely get them killed.



Actually, it might save lives in the future. Exactly what is your recommendation for someone that makes a mistake in an aircraft with no instruments capable of supporting IFR flight that is stuck above a layer that has a good clearance above the ground? Try to keep the greasy side down during a 5 minute descent through the soup?

Clouds - Plane & Pilot Magazine (planeandpilotmag.com) (https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/clouds/#.Xh8oYchKg2w)

"It’s easy to get stuck on top when your airplane fuel supply is limited. I’m so paranoid about it that I tend to err on the conservative side. A few years ago, a good friend of mine had a scary occurrence. Dr. D., as I’ll call him, was cruising home to an airport outside of St. Louis from a competition in his aerobatic monoplane. He was at 10,000 feet MSL on top of a broken layer knowing he could get down through a hole at anytime, until it became overcast. The radio reported better weather ahead, so he felt pretty confident he could get down closer to home and he kept flying north. Much to his dismay, he reached his destination and the weather didn’t improve—he was stuck on top of an overcast with no way to get down and not enough fuel to turn around. Dr. D., who’s braver than I think I would be, had only two options—to bail out and parachute to the ground or to spin down through the overcast. Recalling maneuvers used by old Air Mail pilots, he stalled the airplane and started spinning through the clouds. He told me later he was sure he would break out fairly quickly, but the altimeter kept unwinding as he got lower and lower. After what seemed like the most unsettling eternity, he finally broke through the overcast at 1,500 feet above the ground. Quickly recovering from the spin, he found his airport, landed, then headed home for a stiff drink. I don’t want to have to do that, but at least I know it’s possible."

[OvertHawk]

Exactly what is your recommendation for someone that makes a mistake in an aircraft with no instruments capable of supporting IFR flight that is stuck above a layer
"

Don't be there.

If you've got an aircraft without instruments or are not trained and competent to use them then plan properly and don't get stuck. It's like the perpetual chicken and egg arguments we see about IIMC avoidance versus recovery.

The best way to recover from these situations is not to get into them in the first place.

The idea that spinning down through a cloud layer should be advocated as a mainstream method of recovery for anyone other than aerobatic experts is just bonkers. And even for aerobatic experts it demonstrates significantly poor decision making to have got there in the first place. ( evidenced by the pilot in the link above pressing on over cloud becoming dependent on fining a hole).

The accident that this thread began about was tragic for all involved.

OH

[punkalouver]

Don't be there.

If you've got an aircraft without instruments or are not trained and competent to use them then plan properly and don't get stuck. It's like the perpetual chicken and egg arguments we see about IIMC avoidance versus recovery.

The best way to recover from these situations is not to get into them in the first place.

The idea that spinning down through a cloud layer should be advocated as a mainstream method of recovery for anyone other than aerobatic experts is just bonkers. And even for aerobatic experts it demonstrates significantly poor decision making to have got there in the first place. (evidenced by the pilot in the link above pressing on over cloud becoming dependent on fining a hole).


The don't go there mindset as a solution doesn't help someone who is in that position(as given by an actual example that I posted earlier). The reality is also that significantly poor decision making is a common fact of general aviation life. In fact, we are on an accident thread with just such an example in which the spin option was a possible outcome if the pilot had decided to not test his instrument expertise(which was marginal in its likelihood to ever work)

The spin recovery idea is a rare scenario involving a double failure but what is someone going to do if they have an instrument failure issue while flying VFR on top(which is legal in many countries) and the weather is worse than forecast? What about a fuel leak scenario. Wish they hadn't got there and that's it? They could consider the situation(aircraft type, known ceiling, spin experience, instrument capability for self and aircraft). The stars may align on rare occasion. It is not a mainstream solution, just a desperation - Out of Other Options scenario to consider.

As for restricting my rare case scenario to aerobatic experts only, the same might be applied to attempting instrument flight, an action that has literally killed thousands over the years with a full working panel of instruments. Not sure I would do it in a Bonanza but what if you are in a CAP 10.

The Don't Be There mindset is a great mindset, but is based on wishful thinking instead of reality for the general population. The same mindset was applicable to Do Not Fly VFR into IMC if not trained to do so. But thousands died trying anyways, so it was decided that the Don't Be There theory was not sufficient and mandatory instrument training became a requirement in many countries for VFR only pilot licenses because it was known that this would continue to happen. My recommendation just one more idea to have in mind that could work in certain rare cases.

[RichardJones]

The don't go there mindset as a solution doesn't help someone who is in that position(as given by an actual example that I posted earlier). The reality is also that significantly poor decision making is a common fact of general aviation life. In fact, we are on an accident thread with just such an example in which the spin option was a possible outcome if the pilot had decided to not test his instrument expertise(which was marginal in its likelihood to ever work)

The spin recovery idea is a rare scenario involving a double failure but what is someone going to do if they have an instrument failure issue while flying VFR on top(which is legal in many countries) and the weather is worse than forecast? What about a fuel leak scenario. Wish they hadn't got there and that's it? They could consider the situation(aircraft type, known ceiling, spin experience, instrument capability for self and aircraft). The stars may align on rare occasion. it is not a mainstream solution, just a desperation - Out of Othe Options scenario to consider.

As for restricting my rare case scenario to aerobatic experts only, the same might be applied to attempting instrument flight, an action that has literally killed thousands over the years with a full working panel of instruments. Not sure I would do it in a Bonanza but what if you are in a CAP 10.

The Don't Be There mindset is a great mindset, but is based on wishful thinking instead of reality for the general population. The same mindset was applicable to not flying VFR into IMC if not trained to do so. But thousands died trying anyways, so it was decided that the Don't Be There theory was not sufficient and mandatory instrument training became a requirement in many countries for VFR only pilot licenses because it was known that this would continue to happen. My recommendation just one more idea to have in mind that could work in certain rare cases.

A good post. Getting caught out on top can happen to anyone. Geography depending, the chances vary of course. Why do we make make mistakes? Because we are human!! Humans screw up from time to time, this is all part of the continuous learning process. In many types of operation man is becoming the weak link. Most auto pilots and or computers can do mundane tasks far better than any human, for example. It's the interface between humans and computers, that can cause problems. I am very wary of people who "dont make mistakes", When it does happen the mistake can be very big.
Stability. Yes of course some aircraft are far more stable than others. The more manuverable the aircraft the less stable. Some aircraft are so unstable it takes a computer too control the damned things.
Swept wing aircraft were mentioned previously. The wings are swept for lateral stability. However Dutch Roll becomes an issue if the yaw damper quits. The book says it must be rectified/recovered with aileron/spoilers. Hard work. However if you know what you are doing, Dutch roll can be recovered with yaw inputs (as the yaw damper does) at the right time, by the right amount. However I digress.
"Aviation is a highly devolped science. Don't pioneer."

[172_driver]

Not a pilot, but an electrical engineer with an interest in aviation: I'm really interested to know how stable various aircraft types are in the roll and yaw axis. I can understand an aerobatic trainer like the CAP10 would be designed with low stability so it can be thrown around. But what about a high-wing Cessna, or for that matter a big transport aircraft like the 747 or A380? From some of the quotes above (e.g. Paul Sodelind) the pilot only has seconds to respond to a slight wing drop before a steeper and steeper turn develops. I'm surprised that any big passenger aircraft could even get certified if it was so unstable that it wouldn't fly hands off for a while (say, more than 30 seconds or so), and even return itself to level flight??

In yaw - very stable. Like a dart arrow.

In roll - somewhere around neutral, with a slight tendency to go towards wings level. In the mean time the pitch will change and call for action.

[WideScreen]

..... However Dutch Roll becomes an issue if the yaw damper quits. The book says it must be rectified/recovered with aileron/spoilers. However if you know what you are doing, Dutch roll can be recovered with yaw inputs (as the yaw damper does) at the right time, by the right amount......
Yes, I agree with you on this. Dutch Roll is something completely different as generally assumed. And, once you know that, you know how to correct it.

Now back to your highly disputed recipe: Despite the comments over here and given you seem to have an understanding of mechanical physics, I certainly can understand, a spam-can might become "stable" again when the rudder control is returned to the natural elements/aerodynamics. Though please explain what happens and why. All spam-cans I flew/fly are so unstable, that only a couple of seconds hands-off the yoke, will give a spiral dive. Though, I never tried this without rudder input........

Oh, personally, I might do another trick, when with a C172: Full flaps and dive to the ground, with a > 45 degrees pitch down angle. The speed will be limited to just above 90 kts, "keep wings somewhat level" and your descent is done in minimal time, so the upset chances are minimal, and IF happening your speed will still be far away from TDS/destruction. And, unless there is a very low cloud base, one has sufficient altitude to recover from your controlled dive.

[421dog]

So I have taught both of my teenage kids to keep a variety of aircraft upright in a stable descent in actual as well as simulated IMC using, at a minimum a turn and bank indicator. It was a non-issue even with them in the right seat.
I taught my 16 y/o son to stall, spin and recover a beech sport. He was really good at recovering from the stall (Sports break unreliably and enter an actual spin, not a spiral dive, if active recovery isn’t initiated). He was able to get out of the spin with coaching, but it took him a couple of turns.

i like the odds on learning how to keep the greasy side down with basic instrumentation.

I learned to use the instrumentation present in any aircraft when I became qualified to fly it. It ain’t rocket science.

Clearly, the right answer is to stay out of situations which you are not equipped to be in, but as an out, the least heroic route is likely the safest.

[RichardJones]

Good question about the rudder pedals.
If you don't have your feet on the pedals, you wont be tempted to use them. Dont worry about the ball not being in the middle. Let the aircraft settle down and do it's thing. Sure the a/c won't fly straight but it should keep the blue side up. If one exists the cloud on or very near the deck, hopefully the vertical speed and horizontal speed, wont be too high, therefore a good chance of walking away.

Hand is only on the stick or control column, to ensure the airlerons are kept neutral.

Basically let everything go and sit back and enjoy ride.

[421dog]

Wow. You guys are already dead.
at the expense of an hour or two of primary instrument instruction.

[megan]

Sure the a/c won't fly straight but it should keep the blue side upNot exactly a vote of confidence then. Given that your aircraft is side slipping (ball not centred) it will be in a spiral, the degree being subject to type aircraft and in flight conditions (power, speed, flap).

421, you're on the money. If caught on top yell for help and ask for the nearest VMC, one of our chaps rescued a guy caught on top, had him fly loose formation and lead him down through the soup. Instrument flying is not all that difficult and is a skill easily picked up, I'm talking just the basic keeping the aircraft upright, home computer sim program would soon have anyone up to speed. Remember Lindbergh flew the Atlantic on basic panel, as did Kingsford Smith making the first Pacific crossing, and the early airlines.

Trying the proposed let down is foolish in the extreme, you can't be assured as to position or cloud base - the cloud may be sitting on top of elevated terrain, get on the radio.


Kingsford Smith - Southern Cross


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1403x849/ab999_jpg_4131b3d1f131a5690add53f31c45e8635888b705.png

Lindbergh - Spirit of St. Louis

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1229x692/lin_1113e388c462078108627ed348ed84804653b607.png

[RichardJones]

Unfortunately and tragically, these guys did die. Hence this report and thread on this forum. May they R.I.P.
If just one person reads and takes on board my ramblings, my work has been worthwhile.
Flame me if you wish as I don't give a damn.
Fly safe.


Not exactly a vote of confidence then. Given that your aircraft is side slipping (ball not centred) it will be in a spiral, the degree being subject to type aircraft and in flight conditions (power, speed, flap).

421, you're on the money. If caught on top yell for help and ask for the nearest VMC, one of our chaps rescued a guy caught on top, had him fly loose formation and lead him down through the soup. Instrument flying is not all that difficult and is a skill easily picked up, I'm talking just the basic keeping the aircraft upright, home computer sim program would soon have anyone up to speed. Remember Lindbergh flew the Atlantic on basic panel, as did Kingsford Smith making the first Pacific crossing, and the early airlines.

Trying the proposed let down is foolish in the extreme, you can't be assured as to position or cloud base - the cloud may be sitting on top of elevated terrain, get on the radio.



Are you one of those "Adalide Astronauts"?

[megan]

Are you one of those "Adalide Astronauts"?Absolutely no idea what an "Adalide" is, but as the old saying goes, "Opinions are like assholes (sorry Mods): everybody's got one, and everybody thinks theirs smells nicer than everyone else's" As you say,If just one person reads and takes on board my ramblings, my work has been worthwhileI wish the same for 421's and my advice. Readers will make their own decisions, and perhaps live or die by them.

A Cessna doing its own thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syR7KC9cODo

[WideScreen]

Good question about the rudder pedals.
If you don't have your feet on the pedals, you wont be tempted to use them. Dont worry about the ball not being in the middle. Let the aircraft settle down and do it's thing. Sure the a/c won't fly straight but it should keep the blue side up. If one exists the cloud on or very near the deck, hopefully the vertical speed and horizontal speed, wont be too high, therefore a good chance of walking away.

Hand is only on the stick or control column, to ensure the airlerons are kept neutral.

Basically let everything go and sit back and enjoy ride.
With this explanation, I am not going to give "advice" other people to follow your suggestions.

Not saying your advice is wrong, but the proof can not be consumed, indigestible ......

Wow. You guys are already dead.
at the expense of an hour or two of primary instrument instruction.
Yep, very early in my PPL training, I did quite some IMC training on my own initiative, which paid off later on. When, at the near end of the PPL course, with an instructor sitting next to me, we got into IMC at 1100 ft AGL (stormy weather, while making a shallow turn, with clouds unexpectedly moving in fassssssst), the spiral dive developed within seconds. The instructor (high time airline pilot) was looking out his side window (at a 60+ degrees left bank, looking for ground contact, he said later on :ugh:), and did do nothing else (IE take control and use the AI). It was me who saved the day, we came out of the clouds at 400 ft AGL, wings level, VS 0 ft/s and at the correct heading. Recovered in just a couple of seconds, on the instruments. Once you aim for it, it's easy.

The biggest catch: Because of being only allowed flying VMC, you just don't switch to the instruments when it becomes IMC conditions, you just don't, because it's not allowed, mental issue. Once I did switch to the instruments, the problem got solved right away. Have a little IMC training, and it can be done, it's not that difficult.

This (and other events) taught me, to never trust high-time commercial-flying instructors. They are just out of touch with the low level basics of (IMC and other items) flying in Spam-cans.

[RichardJones]

With this explanation, I am not going to give "advice" other people to follow your suggestions.

Not saying your advice is wrong, but the proof can not be consumed, indigestible ......


Yep, very early in my PPL training, I did quite some IMC training on my own initiative, which paid off later on. When, at the near end of the PPL course, with an instructor sitting next to me, we got into IMC at 1100 ft AGL (stormy weather, while making a shallow turn, with clouds unexpectedly moving in fassssssst), the spiral dive developed within seconds. The instructor (high time airline pilot) was looking out his side window (at a 60+ degrees left bank, looking for ground contact, he said later on :ugh:), and did do nothing else (IE take control and use the AI). It was me who saved the day, we came out of the clouds at 400 ft AGL, wings level, VS 0 ft/s and at the correct heading. Recovered in just a couple of seconds, on the instruments. Once you aim for it, it's easy.

The biggest catch: Because of being only allowed flying VMC, you just don't switch to the instruments when it becomes IMC conditions, you just don't, because it's not allowed, mental issue. Once I did switch to the instruments, the problem got solved right away. Have a little IMC training, and it can be done, it's not that difficult.

This (and other events) taught me, to never trust high-time commercial-flying instructors. They are just out of touch with the low level basics of (IMC and other items) flying in Spam-cans.

Good post as it has constructive input. This is what it is all about.

I agree with you about the part time thing. I have know people go back to Ag flying. Some came to grief. Like operating many types in a fleet. There is a maximum. Light aircraft 4 IIRC. Complex 2? It should be only one. I have forgotten. To swap types on a regular basis you really need to be on top of your game. Same with part time instructing. We loose touch with the real world.
One needs to be current.

[421dog]

When we engage in pursuits that will result in dire consequences absent our appropriate response to adverse circumstances, we are obligated to mitigate the risk via appropriate pursuit of skills, decision making, and risk assessment prior to embarking on the endeavour.

It’s nobody else’s problem if a Pilot that can’t control his airplane flies into a situation above his skill set. If there’s a cloud in the sky, avoid it, or know damn well how to fly through it.

If that makes you sad, buy a Vespa, and trade in your five-bar epaulettes (and your bugsmasher) for a spiffy Armani windbreaker. When you get scared because it’s foggy, you can put the kickstand down and find a latte somewhere nearby with a bubbly heart on top.

[RichardJones]

It’s nobody else’s problem if a Pilot that can’t control his airplane flies into a situation above his skill set. If there’s a cloud in the sky, avoid it, or know damn well how to fly through it.

I cannot disagree with that. However, as accident statistics and reports indicate, there are exceptions.

You will all be relieved that I am retiring from contributions to this thread. If I knew I was about to start another war I would not have posted my original suggestion.

If mankind was meant to fly, God would have given us wings, at birth. He didn't, well certainly not in my case. Appoligies for my dyslectic spell checker. Spelling police have been my memisus for years.
Safe flying all.

[421dog]

God did intend us to fly. He made us able to do so and endowed us with some basic risk management skills…

[Maoraigh1]

It isn't just the pilot's problem if, in VMC above cloud, he contacts the resource he's been taught to contact in an emergency, and enters cloud because they told him to do so.

[spornrad]

I see in this story a certain fatal submissive mindset along the lines "the controller is a full time professional, he will know how to get me out of this mess". Fitting the picture was this pilot not contacting ATC for weather updates earlier nor using his transponder. Afraid of ATC, or too respectful, or simply not used talking to... I know the type, AAIB report is severely lacking human factors in this regard.
I absolutely must question whether instructions from ATC are safe for me respecting my skills and my circumstances. If in doubt, ask or declare "unable". Get used to talking to ATC, take advantage of ATC, use the information from ATC!
The most important lesson here is that the controller is also a mere mortal, subject to errors, and instructions of air traffic control must be scrutinized exactly as my own plans. If ATC instructs you to fly into clouds while neither IFR equipped nor current, say "unable" and don't do it!
PS: tried in VMC today (SEP high wing) feet off rudders stick centered (with some thermal activity). Took 30 s to start spiralling, cut it after 60 s with bank reaching 60°. This recipe is not working due to roll instability in our spam cans.

[421dog]

Not having flown to any significant extent outside of North America, but a fair amount there, the beautiful thing about flying is that they let you do it right up until you Fvck up.

We all realize that this is a risk-rich endeavor.
We do stuff that normal mortals don’t, and accept the attendant dangers.

Pee in somebody else’s cherreios and you’ll get your ticket pulled.

[megan]

Excellent advice spornrad, you are the PIC, ask for what you need ie I don't have any IMC experience in this case.This recipe is not working due to roll instability in our spam cansThe instability is there so you can have maneuverability. Hands off in a BAE 31, starts at 0:52

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWo-sryzQiQ

[WideScreen]

When we engage in pursuits that will result in dire consequences absent our appropriate response to adverse circumstances, we are obligated to mitigate the risk via appropriate pursuit of skills, decision making, and risk assessment prior to embarking on the endeavour.

It’s nobody else’s problem if a Pilot that can’t control his airplane flies into a situation above his skill set. If there’s a cloud in the sky, avoid it, or know damn well how to fly through it.

If that makes you sad, buy a Vespa, and trade in your five-bar epaulettes (and your bugsmasher) for a spiffy Armani windbreaker. When you get scared because it’s foggy, you can put the kickstand down and find a latte somewhere nearby with a bubbly heart on top.
Or so to say, the fire brigade should not be scrambled, when your house is on fire ? Just your problem..... :ugh:

[WideScreen]

....
PS: tried in VMC today (SEP high wing) feet off rudders stick centered (with some thermal activity). Took 30 s to start spiralling, cut it after 60 s with bank reaching 60°. This recipe is not working due to roll instability in our spam cans.
While not perfect, this does not sound bad at all.

In a minute, one easily descends through a 1000 ft cloud layer, with the spiral dive development at the end.

Maybe, next time, you can give it some variations:
- What happens, when minimal wings-level corrections are made, just based on counteracting the airplane turning shown on the gyro compass ?
- What happens, when with full flaps ?

[RichardJones]

While not perfect, this does not sound bad at all.

In a minute, one easily descends through a 1000 ft cloud layer, with the spiral dive development at the end.

Maybe, next time, you can give it some variations:
- What happens, when minimal wings-level corrections are made, just based on counteracting the airplane turning shown on the gyro compass ?
- What happens, when with full flaps ?

Appoligies to all, as I am temporally coming out of retirement on this.

You have the right idea, right attitude and could be the right stuff.
There is a lot of left hand spirals, in examples given.Reduce the power some what. As an increased power, the more the twisted slipstream from the propeller S/E.will strike the port vertical surfaces. Not to mention engine torque. Hence when power is applied right rudder is needed to maintain balance and vice versa. On all American built piston engines.
Yes in Vmc, experiment with flap etc. The ldea of a little power is to try and keep the engine warm. Full idle power power would even be better. Unfortunately you may not have much power when you need it again. Clearing the engine at say every 1000 feet will upset the equilibrium. Don't attempt it.
Remember you are going to pick up a lot of carb ice in cloud. It's a trade off.
The reason for reduced speed is this. If the cloud your desperate situate dictates you descend through, is on the deck, you would hopefully be under control when ground contact was made. The slower the better. This gives person in this desperate situation some chance of survival. That is reason I threw in the EFATO scenario, on a previous post. Land ahead!!
The two who perished in the accident to which this thread is based, had no chance, in the situation into which confronted them.

Additional input below.

https://www.pprune.org/flying-instructors-examiners/351973-question-ab-initio-instructors.html?highlight=Question+Instructors

[meleagertoo]

I'm a bit baffled by all this discussion. PPL requires 5 hours of instrument flying, does it not? So how can a PPL be unable to use his instruments?
None fitted someone explained above. Not so. Every pic I've just looked at of CAP10 cockpits shows either an AI or a Turn Co-ordinator. Anyone should be capable of maintaining safe flight with either of those. Admittedy recovery from unexpected attitudes might represent a problem.
Spinning is s daft suggestion with cloudbase in some areas 500ft or less. It would be hazardous as hell with a guaranteed 1500ft for most pilots. Recovery even by a competent aerobatic pilot would be highly questionable just popping out of cloud at 500 by the time atitude awareness had been achieved.
Do CAP10s not carry parachutes? I thought it was pretty standard for aerobatic types? That's a get-out-of-jail card in extreme circumstances.
Finally, I'd submit the simplest and most foolproof way to get out of their pickle, being over Devon, would be to initiate a straight descent on a southerly course(maybe with radar assistance) with modest r.o.d until you pop out of cloud under full control over the oggin, safe and sound. It then requires you to turn N and find a usable airport or at a pinch the beach, but it won't kill you unless cloud's on the deck but you'd not get down safely anywhere in that scenario.

[RichardJones]

Admittedly, I'm way out of touch with current, legislation regarding instrument requirements in light a/c., not too mention everything else, these days.
I my day when I had a PPL at 17, the aircraft I got my hands on, had a turn and bank, if you were lucky.
never did anything under the hood until CPL training. Consequently, for most, we stayed away from cloud. Too scared to go near it. That kept most of us out of trouble. In fact, the aerial work aircraft I began operating, in the outfit I was with, (at 21) only had the ball. The thinking was to discourage cloud flying, and costs of course. You see, when you are young, you are invincible. Or that's what we thought. Never too young to start learning though.

[Liffy 1M]

I'm a bit baffled by all this discussion. PPL requires 5 hours of instrument flying, does it not? So how can a PPL be unable to use his instruments?
None fitted someone explained above. Not so. Every pic I've just looked at of CAP10 cockpits shows either an AI or a Turn Co-ordinator. Anyone should be capable of maintaining safe flight with either of those. Admittedy recovery from unexpected attitudes might represent a problem.
Spinning is s daft suggestion with cloudbase in some areas 500ft or less. It would be hazardous as hell with a guaranteed 1500ft for most pilots. Recovery even by a competent aerobatic pilot would be highly questionable just popping out of cloud at 500 by the time atitude awareness had been achieved.
Do CAP10s not carry parachutes? I thought it was pretty standard for aerobatic types? That's a get-out-of-jail card in extreme circumstances.
Finally, I'd submit the simplest and most foolproof way to get out of their pickle, being over Devon, would be to initiate a straight descent on a southerly course(maybe with radar assistance) with modest r.o.d until you pop out of cloud under full control over the oggin, safe and sound. It then requires you to turn N and find a usable airport or at a pinch the beach, but it won't kill you unless cloud's on the deck but you'd not get down safely anywhere in that scenario.

The report states inter alia:

"Both Birmingham Airport and Gloucestershire Airport were within 90-minutes flying time of the aircraft’s position during the emergency. Both reported 1-2 octas of cloud and good visibility; conditions that were suitable for flying a visual approach."

In this case there was no need for risky ad hoc procedures had the aircraft been assisted to reach an airfield where the weather was good.

[spornrad]

I'm a bit baffled by all this discussion. PPL requires 5 hours of instrument flying, does it not? So how can a PPL be unable to use his instruments?
...
There is a reason for stringent currency requirements on IFR pilots. Medical background is called somatographic illusions. Just because I had some hours under the hood many years ago does not enable me to hand fly hardcore IFR approaches. No chance. Without horizon view average VFR pilot looses spatial orientation in 60 s.

[punkalouver]

The report states inter alia:

"Both Birmingham Airport and Gloucestershire Airport were within 90-minutes flying time of the aircraft’s position during the emergency. Both reported 1-2 octas of cloud and good visibility; conditions that were suitable for flying a visual approach."

In this case there was no need for risky ad hoc procedures had the aircraft been assisted to reach an airfield where the weather was good.

That is what I said on my first comment on this thread….

https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/642107-unreported-light-aircraft-accident-2.html#post11427996

But several people appeared to not read and understand it thoroughly and started a chain of responses irrelevant to what I stated(it does seem to be a trait worth being aware of that there can be a tendency to over-react prior to getting the full amount of easily available information).

Ask ATC for weather reports and if within range and doable in vmc, get vectors toward one of those airports for a vmc letdown. It could even be an off-airport landing if necessary.

[RichardJones]

There is always this method of course. Well tried and tested, fool proof and never failed. Only in it, for a matter of seconds.
Maybe we could talk Megan into doing the prune test.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1273742239914467?s=yWDuG2&fs=e

[megan]

Have done that as well RJ, don't know what point you are trying to make.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1480x2000/contract025_6354ed9abf1200691d9f4bd5cda43f6ec7857cce.jpg

[hans brinker]

There is always this method of course. Well tried and tested, fool proof and never failed. Only in it, for a matter of seconds.
Maybe we could talk Megan into doing the prune test.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1273742239914467?s=yWDuG2&fs=e

33 years in aviation, 20K hours. You are wrong. Maybe in some aircraft it would work. But you stating as fact that it will always work is incorrect. And even suggesting that knowing this will save people shows you don't understand people. If they think they can always get away with following your advise as opposed to staying out of situations they should not be in, more people will end up in the situation above and more will end up dead. Stop spreading this. If it would really worked, it would be trained by every instructor. You sound like the "get rich working online in 2 hours per day secret investment tool" people.

[hans brinker]

Choose your risk.

Most pilots with a CAP 10 know how to do a spin very well. They usually didn’t buy it for gaining any instrument experience. Got some news for you. Active input for a spin(called holding it on the stops) ain’t that difficult.

One should keep in mind is that there are plenty of very good aerobatic pilots with no instrument experience who have done thousands of spins and can actually keep the greasy side up better than you ever could(when appropriate).

So yeah, it is quite possible with some pilots. Just do another spin like you did a hundred time previous in your CAP 10 and recover just like you did a hundred times previously.

Hmmmm. 421Dog is USA based. Scared of spins are we, after never having been trained how to do one?

OMG OMG

And 99% of the GA public have no business getting close to a spin. They are more likely to survive inadvertent flight into IMC by trying to keep the wings level than to spin through it. Full stop. Saying anything else is just wrong. Yeah, aerobatic pilots could probably, but that is not a large group, and you even suggesting it should be tried by the regular flying public is just wrong. Plenty of experience in aviation, never done a spin. The reason the US stopped teaching spins to private pilots was that too many people died getting instruction in how to do them.....

[punkalouver]

And 99% of the GA public have no business getting close to a spin. They are more likely to survive inadvertent flight into IMC by trying to keep the wings level than to spin through it. Full stop. Saying anything else is just wrong. Yeah, aerobatic pilots could probably, but that is not a large group, and you even suggesting it should be tried by the regular flying public is just wrong. Plenty of experience in aviation, never done a spin. The reason the US stopped teaching spins to private pilots was that too many people died getting instruction in how to do them.....


Did I mention in my last post that there is a tendency for people to not read things fully and then respond erroneously? I think I did.

Thanks for your analysis that one is more likely to survive an IMC encounter than spin through it...."Full Stop". Show us the data. There is none.

As I stated earlier for those not fully reading my posts......"My recommendation just one more idea to have in mind that could work in certain rare cases." This fellow did not encounter that rare case because it was cloudy right to the ground.

But his likelihood of surviving the attempt at extended IMC flight for an approach in low IFR conditions was quite low, as it is with a large percentage of VFR pilots that would try such a thing. He didn't even get anywhere close to the low level maneuvering stage for his vectors for the approach. It would appear that some people here seem to think that he had a good chance of survival trying that. I doubt it and would suggest that a large percentage of the GA public have no business getting close to an intentional IMC letdown to a low IFR landing.

[hans brinker]

Did I mention in my last post that there is a tendency for people to not read things fully and then respond erroneously? I think I did.

Thanks for your analysis that one is more likely to survive an IMC encounter than spin through it...."Full Stop". Show us the data. There is none.

As I stated earlier for those not fully reading my posts......"My recommendation just one more idea to have in mind that could work in certain rare cases." This fellow did not encounter that rare case because it was cloudy right to the ground.

But his likelihood of surviving the attempt at extended IMC flight for an approach in low IFR conditions was quite low, as it is with a large percentage of VFR pilots that would try such a thing. He didn't even get anywhere close to the low level maneuvering stage for his vectors for the approach. It would appear that some people here seem to think that he had a good chance of survival trying that. I doubt it and would suggest that a large percentage of the GA public have no business getting close to an intentional IMC letdown to a low IFR landing.

This was your post:

This seems like a situation that could been fairly easy to resolve, depending on the cloud at his high altitude when he called ATC. We know he reported being on top of cloud but cannot be sure if it was a large swath of good VFR on top conditions or not(it would have been nice for the air to get a pirep from the nearby military jet).

The pilot had decent flight experience at over 1000 hours. He also had options with 1.5 hours fuel stated to ATC(and depending on what power setting he based it on, could have been extended). All that need to have been done was to ask ATC about weather reports at nearby airports. There were airports within 1.5 hours that had very nice weather. A request for vectors would get him to a safe airport.

Even if an unavoidable cloud layer was encountered, I would suggest that it would likely be safer to penetrate IMC in cruise flight rather than what likely turned out to be a descent at a speed closer to the redline.

And even if he ended up out of non-IMC options with low fuel over an airport with an overcast layer combined with a cloud base that was not too low, he could have put his aerobatic plane in a spin and held it there until clear of the clouds, then recovered.

I agree with everything except the last sentence. And there is not much that could change my mind about that.

Choose your risk.

Most pilots with a CAP 10 know how to do a spin very well. They usually didn’t buy it for gaining any instrument experience. Got some news for you. Active input for a spin(called holding it on the stops) ain’t that difficult.

One should keep in mind is that there are plenty of very good aerobatic pilots with no instrument experience who have done thousands of spins and can actually keep the greasy side up better than you ever could(when appropriate).

So yeah, it is quite possible with some pilots. Just do another spin like you did a hundred time previous in your CAP 10 and recover just like you did a hundred times previously.

Hmmmm. 421Dog is USA based. Scared of spins are we, after never having been trained how to do one?

OMG OMG

Show me the data that most cap10 pilots know how to spin.

[megan]

You are wrong. Maybe in some aircraft it would work. But you stating as fact that it will always work is incorrecthans, what really concerns me is here we have a guy claiming "20k hours TT, made up of instructing, ag flying. Bush flying, airline. A lot of types. including heavy 4 engine jets, B747" you would think he would have a firm grip on aerodynamics, seemingly not so. Advice to all, don't take this RichardJones crackpot idea of descending through cloud on board.

Still laughing at the mere thought.

I challenge Richard to provide a list of types he has tried this in, coupled with video of same. That's the only way he can back up his claim.

[Ivor_Bigunn]

Returning to the original subject of this thread, the fatal crash of G-BXBU, a Mudry Cap 10B, I was shocked to read the Accident Report.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/643e408722ef3b000c66f3aa/Mudry_Cap_10B_G-BXBU_06-23.pdf

The Air Traffic Controllers gave the poor pilot no help at all. In fact they made things worse for him, by diverting him to Exeter airport, where weather conditions were completely unsuitable for a VFR landing. This was what the pilot needed, as he was licensed only for single-engine VFR flying, and was stuck above thick clouds at 7500 feet.

The diversion was agreed between two "assistants" at Exeter Airport and the Distress & Diversion Cell at Swanick, without a real Controller ever being involved. The pilot had called PAN PAN twice, and was heard by both Control centers, and set his beacon to Squawk 7700. It is confirmed in the Report that any one of these actions should have caused ATC to treat his situation as an Emergency. But the Exeter controller repeatedly referred to G-BXBU as a "weather diversion", then offered an ILS approach !! The controller seemed more concerned that G-BXBU should not conflict with a military jet that was circling, but in no distress at all.

No controller ever asked the pilot exactly what his problem was, or established that he had 90 mins of fuel left, so he could divert to several open airports.

Finally, the Exeter controller instructed G-BXBU to descend to 2600 feet, which was in thick cloud. The pilot queried this, and the instruction was repeated. The crash followed shortly thereafter. However, it is not possible to say that the instruction caused the crash, as there is some evidence that the pilot had already started to divert to another small airstrip, that was his home base.

Look, it must be said that this pilot was performing very poorly under extreme pressure (from his assessment) and he might very well have crashed anyway. Amongst other things, he had been flying with his beacon Off, and had already made several lurid abrupt 360 degree turns, and rapid descents. And he did not communicate very clearly with ATC. He was clearly panicking. But with even average support from ATC, he might have survived, with his passenger.

The seven Safety Recommendations in the report all relate to ATC in one form or another. There are none for pilots.

I imagine that all pilots would expect that ATC could respond correctly to a call of PAN PAN, and a beacon setting of 7700. Surely ATC must have some statutory responsibilities?

Altogether a very disappointing incident.

IB

[punkalouver]

This was your post:

I agree with everything except the last sentence. And there is not much that could change my mind about that.
.

It is not your mind that I am trying to change.

I have now publicized a rare but possible exit scenario for someone caught above a layer of clouds that can be kept in mind by people who have read it and passed it along in further discussions. Like I said previously, there are a lot of variables that have to come together including cloud base, aircraft type, remaining fuel, nearby weather, aircraft instrument installation, instrument serviceability, instrument flying experience(or lack of), aerobatic experience, etc to go into the decision-making process. I have anecdotal evidence of it being used successfully at least once.

Whether you agree with it is meaningless to me. And I am sure that it will be completely meaningless the erroneous pilot stuck above the clouds in an aircraft without the capability for instrument flight.

I could just see the theoretical frantic phone call now from a guy in a Piper Cub stuck above the clouds with little fuel left desperately looking for ideas from a high time guy after making the biggest mistake of his life. He gets admonished to make sure to never do it again and then the phone hangs up with the pilot having learned his lesson.

What are you going to tell this guy to save his life?
Cold War Gallery Cockpits (nmusafvirtualtour.com) (http://www.nmusafvirtualtour.com/cockpits/CW_tour/CW-33.html)

[Maoraigh1]

I'm just a PPL with a long-expired UK IMC rating. I got into cloud before getting the IMC, but did a 180 and got out without losing control.
I have done spinning. Aircraft do not stop descending after spin stops. Nobody has mentioned the risk of pulling high G getting out of the post-spin dive after exiting the cloud and seeing the ground. There is great variation in the height lost in a spin. After spinning initially in Chipmunks I was startled at the height my instructor chose to enter a spin in a Tiger Moth.
The parachute video is only relevant if you are wearing a parachute and are current in its use - I've never jumped and would prefer to try to descend on instruments.

[punkalouver]

I'm just a PPL with a long-expired UK IMC rating. I got into cloud before getting the IMC, but did a 180 and got out without losing control.
I have done spinning. Aircraft do not stop descending after spin stops. Nobody has mentioned the risk of pulling high G getting out of the post-spin dive after exiting the cloud and seeing the ground. There is great variation in the height lost in a spin. After spinning initially in Chipmunks I was startled at the height my instructor chose to enter a spin in a Tiger Moth.
The parachute video is only relevant if you are wearing a parachute and are current in its use - I've never jumped and would prefer to try to descend on instruments.

That is your decision. But at least you were able to consider an alternative option, even if you decided it didn’t make sense for you.

The standard spin risks apply if one chooses to do a spin. As you mentioned, there may be increased risk during recovery due to visual cues. That is why I have mentioned that it is risky, as is the IMC flight option, depending on previous experience and aircraft instrumentation.

Mind you, it could be interesting for a low timer to do an instrument approach in your Tiger Moth with a cockpit like this….

www.welovestornoway.com/index.php/articles-auto-3/25264-vintage-visitor-for-stornoway

[Maoraigh1]

I tried the " feet off pedals etc" today in the Bolkow Junior. It worked perfectly in calm air. No tendency to change. I'll try it in turbulence when that's available. Not something I could get the Jodel to do.
Still think holding an aircraft in a spin is dangerous if aircraft was not flown with this intention. C of G will affect characteristics. Spin might flatten.

[Mogwi]

Ok.
You have one chance and one chance only. Use the inherent stability of the Aircraft.
- Carb Heat on, throttle back to approx 1500 RPM
- Trim for approx 70 A/S. Depending on type of course.
- FEET OFF THE RUDDERS!! and leave them off!
- Ailerons central and keep them central.wheel or stick central.

Only instrument needed is ASI
Try it for yourself. Sure the aircraft will wallow around etc. but will get you down.
DID I SAY FEET OFF THE RUDDERS?

Won’t work with a Tiger Moth; as soon as you take your feet off the pedals, it will try to sniff its own backside! The only time a Tiger is stable is in a spin - which will get you down through cloud as long as you have enough cloudbase for the subsequent recovery. Only to be used in extremis!!

Mog

[megan]

The only time a Tiger is stable is in a spin - which will get you down through cloud as long as you have enough cloudbase for the subsequent recovery. Only to be used in extremis!!There is a famous photo of a Tiger in a vertical dive about six feet off the ground, can't find the photo at the moment, seem to recall it was the result of a spin, pilot survived virtually unscathed I seem to recall. Perhaps the Tiger is the same as a test pilot jokingly said of a Cub, it can barely kill you. Loved the Tiger spin Mogwi, and the Chipmunk, save for the clattering and banging of the canopy.

[First_Principal]

There is a famous photo of a Tiger in a vertical dive about six feet off the ground, can't find the photo at the moment...

G-ANMZ, 13th July 1963, thanks to https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/234483, and here 'tis:



https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x1635/ganmz_vertical_3d1ddc1de9ee9e303d166edece4cb5ae94f901b3.jpg

Some years later it would seem a similar event occurred at the same airfield! This time courtesy Northamptonshire Telegraph (https://www.northantstelegraph.co.uk/news/miraculous-escape-for-sywell-air-crash-pilot-left-with-just-cuts-and-bruises-2959689):


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/358x457/screenshot_2023_05_10_15_39_24_ab0c506073126413965878270b070 1fadcee7463.png

[B-757]

..Spin to get out of clouds ??..What could possibly go wrong there..

..Over 3 decades of flying (anything in between ultralights and widebodies), and am still learning new procedures..!!

Fly safe,
B-757

[megan]

757, is one to assume then that the emergency hands and feet off descent through cloud is well known to you, or one you have yet to learn? ;)

[RichardJones]

757, is one to assume then that the emergency hands and feet off descent through cloud is well known to you, or one you have yet to learn? ;)

Assume? Makes an ASS of yoU and ME.

Reading some of your posts on this thread, I have failed to see any constructive input, whatsoever.
Maybe you are able to rectify this somewhat.
What advice would YOU pass onto a pilot who is caught out, on top of cloud, with one option only, to decend through it? No A/H, no turn and slip? Fair question I believe.

[henra]

Assume? Makes an ASS of yoU and ME.

While we are at assuming: Could you enlighten us in which types you have actually tried this method? Or even better: post a video of you trying it.
Especially low wing types would be interesting.

[henra]

It’s nobody else’s problem if a Pilot that can’t control his airplane flies into a situation above his skill set. If there’s a cloud in the sky, avoid it, or know damn well how to fly through it.

While from a pure legal perspective you are right, these two controllers will have to live with the knowledge that they could have saved these two people for the rest of their lives.

[RichardJones]

While from a pure legal perspective you are right, these two controllers will have to live with the knowledge that they could have saved these two people for the rest of their lives.

That is some serious finger pointing there. Are you implying ATC in this case, have blood on their hands? If you are, that is very unfair of you. They tried their best I'm sure, using the knowledge they were in possession of, at the time.

Now the South American cowboy, who run his wing tip along the ground, that to me is a hanging offense. Look for trouble, you very oftern find it.

[henra]

That is some serious finger pointing there. Are you implying ATC in this case, have blood on their hands?
Not deliberately. But if you were in their shoes and reflecting the situation over a glass of whine for yourself you can't help but come to the conclusion that it was a missed chance to save two lives.

[RichardJones]

While we are at assuming: Could you enlighten us in which types you have actually tried this method? Or even better: post a video of you trying it.
Especially low wing types would be interesting.

There is a good reason I have not been drawn into, naming types of aircraft and the stability they may or maynot possess. Suffice to say I have tried this with most light aircraft I have flown.
Every type of aircraft display different characteristics, some good some not so good. No two aircraft of the same type, display identical characteristics. No two aircraft are rigged the same. Some aircraft are twisted. Bend an aircraft, it will never be completely straight. Bend the wings, it's normally a total lose.
As for Video evidence. When I last flew a light aircraft, (medium and heavy aircraft time is irrelevant, in this case) video cameras were such, king Kong would have been pushed to lift the thing, leave alone get it into the aircraft. Proves nothing unless there is a simultaneous view of all primary controls, experiencing input or not.
All I am trying to get across is to go try it for yourselves.
Dont try and tear me to pieces until you have tried it. If you don't try it out but criticise, that is destructive criticism.
I put the question again, what would you or anyother sceptic, tell a person how to get down through cloud, who has no other option but to do so?. The aircraft engine may have quit while VMC on top, for example. If that engine cant be restarted in time, that aircraft is going down of course. If the pilot calls for help as they neither posses the knowledge how to get it down or the aircraft is not equipped for IMC, what would your or others input be?
I think this has been done to death.
I rest my case.

[Ivor_Bigunn]

While from a pure legal perspective you are right, these two controllers will have to live with the knowledge that they could have saved these two people for the rest of their lives.

Whilst this comment is harsh, it is not unjustified.

It is clear that other posters on this thread have not read the Accident Report (or my modest summary in Post #90).

The ATC effort was nowhere close to the best that British ATC can do. If it was, then there would be aircraft collisions and crashes all the time in the UK.

The only reason that ATC are not fully responsible for the crash is that the poor pilot (now dead) clearly contributed to his own problems.

I hope that the Health and Safety Executive investigate this crash, to see if ATC response met statutory minimum standards.

All the Accident Report's recommendations related to ATC.

All round, a very sad set of circumstances,

IB

[excrab]

I’ve refrained from posting on this thread up until now due to the calibre of the other posters. We’ve got the high hours commercial / airline pilot who can’t name the light aircraft types he’s talking about and hasn’t flown one since video cameras were too heavy to lift, and the guy who as a student with a few hours of IF training was already better at instrument flying than the high hours commercial instructor sitting next to him. Maybe I’ve got nothing to add, except that the last poster asked what would I tell a person how to get down through cloud who has no other option than to do so.

The answer is that there is always an option, and that option is don’t be there in the first place. So a few rules…

1. Learn how to flight plan. Don’t set off basing your weather briefing on out of date TAFs for airfields that aren’t open, or iPhone Apps that aren’t aviation related. Learn how to properly decode TAFS and METARs. Learn how to relate what they say to what you’re going to see. Think about what 3000 metres in mist and overcast at 500 feet on an area forecast really means when you’re trying to get to an airfield that’s 400 feet above sea level, or 200 feet above sea level. Most instructors who have flown only in the UK don’t have any experience of real Skud running so can’t teach it, and shouldn’t. The value of practice in Skud running is to teach you never to do it again.

2. If your aircraft has instruments, even if it’s just a turn and slip or turn coordinator, or a Venturi driven AH with nothing backing it up, learn to use them. Invest in a few hours with an instructor. Just because you’ve got a thousand hours in your log book and you’re the ace of the base doesn’t mean you can’t learn from an instructor with 500 hours but who has the instrument rating that you don’t have. If you can turn, descend, and fly straight and level you can fly a surveillance radar approach, and that can save you.

3. if you’re Skud running, and the cloud base is getting lower and lower never, ever, keep climbing to stay on top of cloud thinking you’ll find a hole to get down through. You probably won’t. Only climb if your aircraft is properly IFR equipped (not skydemon on an iPad), and you are qualified and current. Forget about keeping wings level feet off the rudders or spinning down through cloud. I’ve flown 5000 hours on SEP and I’m current at IF on them, and 15000 hours in multi crew jet / turboprop and I’m current in them as well, that’s not Willy waving, it’s because despite all that I would never fly IFR in an SEP with less than a thousand foot cloud base, because if the engine stops you need time when you glide out of the cloud to find a place to land, and that’s the same if you’ve got a hundred hours or a million. If I get down to 500 ft AGL below the cloud base I’d turn round and go back, and always would make sure I had somewhere to go back to. And I learned that years ago as a frightened bush pilot doing real Skud running, not reading about it on an internet forum. Always have a plan B.

4. Never be to proud to admit that the conditions are beyond you, and say to your passenger “This isn’t safe, let’s go to the pub instead”. It’s an old saying but a true one; It’s always better to be down here wishing you were up there than the other way around,

[Sygyzy]

Excrab.

At last, a sensible post with some genuine advice.

S

[WideScreen]

I’ve refrained from posting on this thread up until now due to the calibre of the other posters. We’ve got the high hours commercial / airline pilot who can’t name the light aircraft types he’s talking about and hasn’t flown one since video cameras were too heavy to lift, and the guy who as a student with a few hours of IF training was already better at instrument flying than the high hours commercial instructor sitting next to him. Maybe I’ve got nothing to add, except that the last poster asked what would I tell a person how to get down through cloud who has no other option than to do so.

The answer is that there is always an option, and that option is don’t be there in the first place. So a few rules…

1. Learn how to flight plan. Don’t set off basing your weather briefing on out of date TAFs for airfields that aren’t open, or iPhone Apps that aren’t aviation related. Learn how to properly decode TAFS and METARs. Learn how to relate what they say to what you’re going to see. Think about what 3000 metres in mist and overcast at 500 feet on an area forecast really means when you’re trying to get to an airfield that’s 400 feet above sea level, or 200 feet above sea level. Most instructors who have flown only in the UK don’t have any experience of real Skud running so can’t teach it, and shouldn’t. The value of practice in Skud running is to teach you never to do it again.

2. If your aircraft has instruments, even if it’s just a turn and slip or turn coordinator, or a Venturi driven AH with nothing backing it up, learn to use them. Invest in a few hours with an instructor. Just because you’ve got a thousand hours in your log book and you’re the ace of the base doesn’t mean you can’t learn from an instructor with 500 hours but who has the instrument rating that you don’t have. If you can turn, descend, and fly straight and level you can fly a surveillance radar approach, and that can save you.

3. if you’re Skud running, and the cloud base is getting lower and lower never, ever, keep climbing to stay on top of cloud thinking you’ll find a hole to get down through. You probably won’t. Only climb if your aircraft is properly IFR equipped (not skydemon on an iPad), and you are qualified and current. Forget about keeping wings level feet off the rudders or spinning down through cloud. I’ve flown 5000 hours on SEP and I’m current at IF on them, and 15000 hours in multi crew jet / turboprop and I’m current in them as well, that’s not Willy waving, it’s because despite all that I would never fly IFR in an SEP with less than a thousand foot cloud base, because if the engine stops you need time when you glide out of the cloud to find a place to land, and that’s the same if you’ve got a hundred hours or a million. If I get down to 500 ft AGL below the cloud base I’d turn round and go back, and always would make sure I had somewhere to go back to. And I learned that years ago as a frightened bush pilot doing real Skud running, not reading about it on an internet forum. Always have a plan B.

4. Never be to proud to admit that the conditions are beyond you, and say to your passenger “This isn’t safe, let’s go to the pub instead”. It’s an old saying but a true one; It’s always better to be down here wishing you were up there than the other way around,
While your items are perfectly valid, correct, and highly recommendable, these simply aren't applicable to this discussion.

When the fire brigade scrambles to a fire, they have at that moment zero interest in a discussion about "prevention". Their interest at that moment is to put out the fire.

Your approach is, that we don't need a fire brigade when perfect prevention is applied. We all know meteorites, lightning, and a zillion other causes can create a fire, whatever prevention we have.

The same with clouds, to return to this discussion. We all know, TAF's are perfect in both timing and predicting the weather impact, as well as that (other) pilots are perfect, ATC does not make mistakes, etc, etc. Not. Reality is, every now and then, a spam-can ends up above a solid cloud layer and needs to get down, before the fuel runs out.

This whole discussion is "how can this be accomplished", without sacrificing the spam-can and its occupants.

Oh, and we already have reports in this thread, that RJ's suggestion does (somewhat) work, in specific circumstances. Which in its case is a positive indication. Not to say, extending the instruction "feet off the rudder" with "use ailerons to keep wings (more or less) level, forget about the direction you fly" might be a reasonable life-saver.

For those arguing about the amount of "clear" height, when getting out of the clouds. A 300-400 ft ceiling with a commercial airplane (flying at some 150+ kts) on raw data, without CAT-X approach, is an intense happening.

Doing the same in a 65 kts spam-can is a much easier operation. Because the spam-can airspeed is only 40% of the commercial airplanes' speed, the rate of descent at the same glide path is also 40% less, which gives you 2.5 times more time to react, when getting out of the clouds. In a spam-can, your real worry needs to be the obstacle clearance, not the time you have to react, once out of the clouds. Been there, navigating on an NDB, in IMC, at night, with a 400 ft ceiling. The IMC part is not easy, though doable, and the whole operation is not even "on the edge", a spam-can flies that slow, there is no issue picking up on the VMC appearance and correcting for course/position, even when way out of position towards the runway.

..... and the guy who as a student with a few hours of IF training was already better at instrument flying than the high hours commercial instructor sitting next to him.......
Assuming you refer to my writing:

WideScreen about IMC (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/642107-unreported-light-aircraft-accident.html#post11429408)

Your summary is pretty distorted. I did write: "That instructor did nothing, apart from looking out of his side window", I don't state, nor would dare to do, his IMC skills would be inferior to mine. Despite that, it's remarkable, that during the debriefing there was not a word about the happening......

[WideScreen]

A perfect example of why things go haywire is when people start to "teach" that the person in a bad situation should have done better preparation (or just omitted the action).

YQUme3m407c

This accident would never have happened, if the pedantic guy would have kept his mouth shut.

[hans brinker]

Best example of why PPLs should stay VMC. This driver thought they could get to where they wanted to go by driving into a closed road (unintentional VFR into IFR?). When the worker told the driver to move they didn't. Apparently because once you open the door in "drive" the parking brake will set. System knowledge. Hard to keep your mind together when you panic...I think excrab is right. Most accidents aren't unexpected catastrophic failures. Teaching people to stay out of those places will always be better than teaching people to escape from there. There is a reason spin training isn't part of the US PPL anymore. Yes, if you know how to spin through clouds and recover after you come out and find a place to land in those few seconds.............. But if you keep people afraid enough of clouds, GA will be safer.

[WideScreen]

Best example of why PPLs should stay VMC. This driver thought they could get to where they wanted to go by driving into a closed road (unintentional VFR into IFR?). When the worker told the driver to move they didn't. Apparently because once you open the door in "drive" the parking brake will set. System knowledge. Hard to keep your mind together when you panic...I think excrab is right. Most accidents aren't unexpected catastrophic failures. Teaching people to stay out of those places will always be better than teaching people to escape from there. There is a reason spin training isn't part of the US PPL anymore. Yes, if you know how to spin through clouds and recover after you come out and find a place to land in those few seconds.............. But if you keep people afraid enough of clouds, GA will be safer.
Of course, people should stay away from unsafe situations.

The reality is, this does not happen (always).

The YT video clearly shows what happens when the pedantic start becoming pedantic about "prevention" at the wrong time/place.

The same for spam-cans ending up inadvertently in IMC or above a solid cloud layer, without sufficient fuel to fly somewhere safe. It just happens, every now and then.

For this, discussion about potential solutions is highly valuable, to avoid somebody does choose a seemingly plausible solution, which isn't working at all. Discussing such potential solutions is completely different from promoting the acceptability of ending up in such a dangerous situation. Having a toolbox available, just in case something goes haywire, is just as good prevention as proper flight preparation. Both !

Such a preparation/discussion is something completely different from a YT-er intentionally crashing his airplane to earn more money through advertising.

[megan]

Thread running here which has examples of folk finding themselves VMC on top.

https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/652169-vfr-into-imc-what-did-you-do.html

As in the VMC into IMC accidents the only remedy is don't attempt it, VMC on top like wise.

Unless you are current with the IMC skills.necessary to get you out of a jam (plan B which you should always have in the back pocket).

Don't rely on weather reports, read them with a jaundiced eye, they are horoscopes with numbers. Example, airline A320 inbound to an airport the TAF of which said CAVOK, a few minutes prior to arrival unforecast fog rolled over the airport, no fuel to mess about, made an autoland for which the crew had no training using an ILS that didn't have approval for autolands.

Should you be facing an emergency tell ATC what you want, you are the person in command, ATC is there to provide help, they don't know what experience or skill levels you have, don't let them lead you by the nose. The poor chap in this accident was backed into a corner and apparently stressed right out, which is understandable on one level. As PIC should have asked for nearest VMC airport and stated fuel state/endurance, when given IMC should have said unable. All that aside, some days.................

[Ridger]

Such a preparation/discussion is something completely different from a YT-er intentionally crashing his airplane to earn more money through advertising.

Fascinating thread; completely agree prevention is the best medicine but knowing how long your particular machine remains stable hands-off is interesting to consider.

Rather ironically, Trevor Jacob's Taylorcraft appeared to descend in a reasonably stable attitude sans pilot!

However, having experienced a 'sensory deprived spinning chair device', I was shocked at how powerful the somatogyral illusions were, so my feeling is that even in the most stable of machines in a gentle turn, it would be incredibly difficult not to make a reactionary input! Especially when considering the likely stress levels of a VFR only pilot in such circumstances...

[BBK]

Excrab

Excellent advice.

I think this tragic accident is a classic case of the holes in the cheese lining up. Sadly the pilot put himself into the situation where he appeared to be well outside his level of competence and paid the ultimate price. As others have said the ATC services failed to comprehend the true nature of his problem. I’ve been to visit the D&D cell and they normally offer excellent support. I’ve no doubt that both Exeter and the D&D cell learned valuable lessons to help prevent a recurrence.

In my youth a wise old instructor defined a superior pilot as one that uses their superior abilities to stay out of situations where their superior ability will be called on! Of course we’d probably use the phrase “Threat Error Management” nowadays. So using the concept of TEM then brief students and inexperienced pilots don’t fly in IMC unless trained, current and in a suitably equipped aircraft. A forced landing with power is preferable to losing control in cloud. If a pilot for whatever reason ends up VMC in top the get use local ATC or call up on 121.5. I don’t know if it’s used in the GA environment but the abbreviation NITS works well when briefing ATC as it is to brief cabin crew in abnormal situations.

Nature, Intention, Time, Specials

In the context of this accident the point is that the pilot that cannot fly in cloud must tell ATC. Anyway, just my thoughts. Good discussion items for PPL navigation etc.

[RichardJones]

In the context of this accident the point is that the pilot that cannot fly in cloud must tell ATC. Anyway, just my thoughts. Good discussion items for PPL navigation etc.

Agree with you there. Call for help!!
Reminds me of the DC 10 that had the Hydraulic failure, leading to what amounted to primary aerodynamic control loss.. One crew member called up the engineering department pronto, for technical input.