Changes at Old Warden

[Nige321]

Theres been some changes at Old Warden.

You used to be able to drop in for an hour, grab a tea and sandwich, watch any activities for a while and go on your way.
You paid for entrance into the museum and workshops.
I've done this many times, as well as being a member and paying for visits into the museum and airshows.

Not any more...

It'll now cost £15 to get through the gates, so it's all or nothing.
It appears that there may be a new ex-Duxford manager running the place...

[PAXboy]

Oh dear. Sounds like a 21st Century approach to punters ... as opposed to the 20th century customers and passengers. As I have commented in other forums, everyone now trying to get the money in the door to catch up on 2020. I sit to be corrected.

[Nige321]

There's a 'Strategic Plan (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiQgMOAxp_yAhWSZMAKHTZNAvMQFnoECAcQAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.shuttleworth.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F06%2FShuttleworth-Trust-Strategic-plan-2021-2026.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2vO5WF9qAPPFKhuBwCzrBe)' (It downloads a PDF) available from the Shuttleworth website.
It includes the usual corporate speak:

To grow and diversify our audience to at least match the growth and diversity of our region and
To position the Trust as a valued local partner, a salient regional player, and a recognised national brand

We will:
Audiences
Increase our daily and air show visitor numbers by 50%
Target specific markets to diversify our visitors
To increase our BAME visitors to 20% of our audience.
Use our size and influence in the local area to promote our value to the community


The general complaint on the Facebook pages and forums is that they are sucking the unique character out of the place...

[Less Hair]

I have to say this is the most beautiful and romantic aerodrome I know of. Having a picknick and watching those Edwardians fly on a summer evening is a life changing experience.
Certainly worth 15 pounds.

[clareprop]

Rather a lot of years ago, I flew into Old Warden with a flight of seven Vilga aircraft from the Polish navigation competition team. As a regular visitor in my PA-28, they needed a local guide. Loved going there in the days when you phoned up for PPR and that was it....apart from a low pass to 'clear the sheep from the runway'.

[mikemmb]

What a shame, I often dropped in for a quick bite to eat and coffee on the commute up or down the A1. Enjoyed the food as well as whatever was going on, plus it always felt good to give the profit to Old Warden rather than a faceless service station!

The whole charming atmosphere of the place could be in jeopardy if “modern” short term’ism business practices are introduced.

Hope it doesn’t end badly, but the writing may be on the wall?

[Mooneyboy]

Just go and buy a SVAS or Swiss Garden pass for £40-£50 and you’ll get entry for 12 months as many times as you want for the whole family and this includes the museum and Swiss gardens. Before I went to the museum once now been multiple times.

Check out their website ( before anyone says, no I don’t work there).

[Less Hair]

This should be kept and funded as a national treasure, seriously.

[Cuillin Hills]

Flying in to visit Old Warden, I believe, is exceptionally good value

From the website:

“The landing fee of just £10 also grants you and you passengers free access to the attractions (normal fee is £15 per adult) on non-event days. However, we do ask you make an additional donation in the Collection shop for your passengers if you have come to visit the attractions.”

[horatio_b]

I went to the recent 75th anniversary Chipmunk event at Old Warden. Entry was via a long winded route through the estate rather than just through the gate by the hangars. Tickets were being issued by staff on the entry road who had a hand held card reader. Wishing to support the charity, I asked if I could gift aid my donation and was told they did not have the facility. During the day I called at the gift shop to ask them the same question and was told gift aid could only be done with online bookings.
I have paid at the ticket desk at many museums who have been only too happy to accept the extra money that gift aid brings. Old Warden must be either too wealthy or too dis-organised to turn down the chance of extra income.

[GWYN]

Yep, as above. It's Summer holidays so took the children up there this week to sit in the cafe and have an ice cream and watch the goings-on. As described, entry is now via the long and winding road, only to be met with the ticket gang demanding £15 entry. "What even to just visit the cafe???". "Yes."
They lost a customer.

[DaveReidUK]

Theres been some changes at Old Warden.

You used to be able to drop in for an hour, grab a tea and sandwich, watch any activities for a while and go on your way.
You paid for entrance into the museum and workshops.
I've done this many times, as well as being a member and paying for visits into the museum and airshows.

Not any more...

It'll now cost £15 to get through the gates, so it's all or nothing.
It appears that there may be a new ex-Duxford manager running the place...

I'd guess that the bean-counters have looked at the profit margin on your tea and sandwich and decided that a sufficient proportion of drop-ins will pay the new charge to justify the change.

[Cuillin Hills]

It has always been, quite rightly in my view, relaxed around Old Warden in respect of checking of who has bought a ticket and who hasn’t.

it was very easy to walk through the shop and onward to the displays with only a sticker on your jumper to indicate that you had paid.

I suspect a few of the cafe visitors may have been gaining free access to the museum and OW had to take more positive control of it - there is always a minority that will spoil it for the majority.

As someone stated earlier, buy an annual membership and gain unlimited access for 12 months - they have had next to no income for 12 months+.

[Nige321]

I'd guess that the bean-counters have looked at the profit margin on your tea and sandwich and decided that a sufficient proportion of drop-ins will pay the new charge to justify the change.

Or the just haven’t thought it through...🤔

[Cuillin Hills]

Just checked - join SVAS for £30 - unlimited entry to the Collection for 12 months (apart from event days which still gain a discount).

No pleasing some people.

[dc9-32]

People choose to go to places like this, so pay to get in. £15 is well worth it. If you can't afford £15, maybe consider how much it cost you to get there.

[Pypard]

Seems to me that there are some points being missed here. Clearly there is a 'drop in' clientele for the cafe and a need to control entry to the wider site. I can't see any reason why both cannot be done without the need to charge £15 for someone who just wants a coffee and chill.

It wouldn't take much (surely?) to control entry to the hangars and avoid alienating what would appear to be a significant part of your faithful customers who only want a cup of tea. It's a bit smug to talk about 'how much it cost to get there' when OAPs and others have to watch every penny.

So yes, a £30 membership makes sense, but that's quite a few cups of tea.

[esa-aardvark]

Cynical me !
Ensure fewer visitors. Declare it unviable. Move the collection to Duxford.
Sell the site for profit. Hope I am wrong.

[safetypee]

Excuse a nostalgic drift. About 70 yrs ago, infrequent visits by cycling several miles to look through the iron gates at aeroplanes, occasionally rewarded by open hanger doors.
The ultimate reward, an invite to take a closer look, walk round the hangers, smell the fabric dope and ancient engine oil … all for free.

Many years later, managed a flying visit in a ‘foxy’ aircraft; best untold - no wheel marks in the grass (honestly guv) … singed grass from the jet pipes ?

[Asturias56]

"customers who only want a cup of tea"

But they don't want JUST a cup of tea - they can get that at a Costa for £4 - they want a cup of tea AT OLD WARDEN - to breathe the sacred fumes and look out on the airfield. I know the feeling - when in the vicinity I often manage to stop for a coffee at the 'Bushe Cafe (no extra charge) whereas I'd probably get as good a cup in more comfortable surroundings down the road in Hartley Witney - but no aeroplanes in sight.

The answer is to restrict access to the whole site for those who want to see it and charge extra for those who "just want a coffee" - but not the full price - maybe £1 extra a head?

[Pypard]

Why not just put the prices up a bit in the cafe, control access properly, and avoid any acrimony? Lack of imagination maybe?

[barry lloyd]

I'm with esa-aardvark. The corporate-speak on the .pdf alone is enough to send shivers down my spine. Excellent for commuting to London from Biggleswade (59 mins), to say nothing of the new east-west (Oxford-Cambridge line), which will pass just north of Biggleswade.
Very heavy emphasis on training (which I imagine was how they got the lottery grant), but how many youngsters are interested in that sort of thing nowadays? We keep hearing that they are shying away from anything that looks vaguely like engineering.
Call me an old cynic, and I'll be happy to be proved wrong, but we've seen it all before. Coventry, Hatfield, Panshanger, Woodford, Wellesbourne Mountford, and many more. I suspect it is the thin end of a rather large wedge.

[Nige321]

One other issue that has some relevance, particularly for the demographic of Shuttleworths supporters, is that even if you pay the SVAS membership, or the £15 to get in, you can no longer park anywhere near the hangars, you are parked in a field well away from the strip.
Fine for the able bodied, but many of the less agile are finding the half mile walk to the cafe/resturant/museum difficult.

The big take from the Facebook discussions is that the changes are eroding the relaxed atmosphere that Old Warden exudes.
It's no longer an airstrip with a museum, it's an 'attraction' with all of the corporate trappings that brings.

It sounds like the new managment know all about writing 'Strategic Plans', but sod-all about aeroplanes and aeroplane people...

[mikemmb]

One other issue that has some relevance, particularly for the demographic of Shuttleworths supporters, is that even if you pay the SVAS membership, or the £15 to get in, you can no longer park anywhere near the hangars, you are parked in a field well away from the strip.
Fine for the able bodied, but many of the less agile are finding the half mile walk to the cafe/resturant/museum difficult.

The big take from the Facebook discussions is that the changes are eroding the relaxed atmosphere that Old Warden exudes.
It's no longer an airstrip with a museum, it's an 'attraction' with all of the corporate trappings that brings.

It sounds like the new managment know all about writing 'Strategic Plans', but sod-all about aeroplanes and aeroplane people...

…..it’s all so sad that an iconic place like this is seemingly being driven into the ground. Surely there must be another motive, is it being lined up to be a “much needed” new housing estate?

[DaveReidUK]

There are a couple of recent less-than-complimentary reviews of Shuttleworth on Tripadvisor.

One reviewer reports that he was told the new £15 charge was a "Covid measure" (!) and, like many other would-be visitors on the day, he voted with his feet.

Another remarked that notwithstanding the new pricing regime, basics like keeping the toilets clean and unblocked appeared to be beyond the ability of the management.

Tellingly, neither review attracted a response from Shuttleworth, which says it all.

[WHBM]

To grow and diversify our audience to at least match the growth and diversity of our region and
To position the Trust as a valued local partner, a salient regional player, and a recognised national brand
I have spoken, I hope, comprehensible English all my life, including having much writing accepted by publishers with little or no changes.

I haven't got a clue what this rubbish means. Was it written in Serbo-Croat and then put through Google translate ?

[VictorGolf]

In response to Nige 321, I think I saw a golf type buggy being used to convey the less agile from the "new" carparking area to the hangar/cafe area when I visited last week. What I didn't see were the usual cycle clubs, bikers and classic cars which used to pile in for a bacon bap and a coffee. I always thought they were an attraction in and of themselves, especially on a Sunday morning..

[LeftBlank]

I regularly call into Old Warden when I’m passing for a coffee or tea. I have paid the full fees to go around the hangars on several occasions. The place has a unique charm. Regretfully this new, rather stupid idea will put paid to that. I’m guessing that all the corporate bs has been written by someone with a degree in museum management studies or something similar who believes they know how to run a museum. These people crop up everywhere, causing damage with silly ideas that don’t work outside a room full of flip charts and PowerPoint presentations. After the, often irretrievable, damage has been done they move on to another organisation to cause mayhem. I sincerely hope this doesn’t happen to Old Warden.

[Planemike]

LB...... You sum it up very well. !!

[mikemmb]

LB...... You sum it up very well. !!

……seconded!

Perhaps the following is more apt?……”Before the, often irretrievable, damage has come to light, they move on to another organisation to cause mayhem.”

[WHBM]

Is it the same "expert" formerly from Duxford who knocked Flying Legends on the head ?

[PAXboy]

Well, I have been intending to make a pilgramage one last time - looks like I'd better get on with it. My late father had doneated things to them as his father was RFC (SE.5A pilot) and when we were children in Cambridge, visited many times.

The consultant garbage that WHBM quotes is high grade rubbish and I would not be in the least surprised at a long term agenda as suggested above.

[horatio_b]

The visitor experience manager at Old Warden has only been in the job since March. Before that he had a similar role at the RAF Museum. Doesn't bode well.......

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/james-ponton-a8081969

[GeeRam]

The visitor experience manager at Old Warden has only been in the job since March. Before that he had a similar role at the RAF Museum. Doesn't bode well.......

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/james-ponton-a8081969

That figures.
It had to be a new nut-job that was ex-IWM or RAFM, after seeing that gobblydegook twaddle in the Strategic Plan.

As said above, knows how to write a politically correct Strategic Plan but knows the square root of FA about Old Warden and the people that visit there.

As also mentioned, the cafe drop visitors by classic car and bike clubs etc on Sunday run outs will likely now stop.

[treadigraph]

Just the words "strategic" and "plan" squirt a shot of cold urine into my heart...

[IP_to_Tgt]

Big fan of OW. Had the sheer luck of a Spit pax flight from there.

long story.

[FL235]

Sad to come across this thread, it does appear that the unique atmosphere is likely to be lost, irrespective of cost.

Do we have anyone with experience of the “blind them with b/s” jargon to mount a counterattack?

Have a great memory of flying a Turb Redhill - OW & return when the Tiger Club was visiting - Neil Williams doing ridiculous aeros at 500’ or less. And a summer afternoon view of London from over the Thames on the “no radio” corridor going N/S.

Long time ago, don’t suppose you could do it now.

[bobward]

Looking at the profile this gentleman doesn't seem to spend very long at any of the place where he was employed.
Maybe there's a message there, and hope for the future?

[Planemike]

Looking at the profile this gentleman doesn't seem to spend very long at any of the place where he was employed.
Maybe there's a message there, and hope for the future?
That was my reaction when I read his profile....certainly not gold watch material...!! Also have to wonder in how many cases he left to "advance his career"...?? Just have to worry about the mayhem left behind when/if he departs...

[biscuit74]

Looking at the profile this gentleman doesn't seem to spend very long at any of the place where he was employed.
Maybe there's a message there, and hope for the future?

Just so long as it doesn't mean he has managed to make a mess of each of them first
!

[POBJOY]

Sad to come across this thread, it does appear that the unique atmosphere is likely to be lost, irrespective of cost.

Do we have anyone with experience of the “blind them with b/s” jargon to mount a counterattack?

Have a great memory of flying a Turb Redhill - OW & return when the Tiger Club was visiting - Neil Williams doing ridiculous aeros at 500’ or less. And a summer afternoon view of London from over the Thames on the “no radio” corridor going N/S.

Long time ago, don’t suppose you could do it now.

I seem to recall that before 'Docklands' the view of London was nearly (or quite close) to Tower Bridge although at the usual TC heights and routing being spotted on radar was unlikely. At the 'Redhill end' it was not unusual for the phone to go in the evenings with reports of 'Turbs just gone past me at Crystal Palace', or 'Stampes coming back over Dorking' such was the jungle drum (pre interweb) comms system. On breakfast patrol Sundays this would also include reports of mass dog fights around the TMA !!!. Still goes on some places but not admitting where.

[RetiredBA/BY]

If you really want to see an incompetent muppet who is absolutely clueless go the Science Museum manager at Wroughton, one Matt Moore.,The clown “running” this site is so incompetent the museum there was alllowed to fall into total disrepair on his watch.

​​….and the tax payer pays this guy !

[meleagertoo]

It seems quite incomprehensible to me how anyone presenting a business case would seek to prevent free public access to your shop and shopfront in order to improve interest in your warehouse.
One of the greatest joys of OW was the ability to pull in for a coffee, an ice cream or hust to get your breath back on a bile ride and be in the company of some piece of history, and maybe even see it running.
How many of those visitors then sais, "hey' lets's check this place out" and payed the entry to the main site?

Taking away the sweetener is simply idiocy!

[Kiltrash]

In a similar way my local supermarket, one of the big 4, that has lost trade to the German Discounters has decided to smarten up the car park, and although parking is free with no time limit, to enploy a parking app , Horizon, to offer spaces in the car park for £2.20 per hour...
Store manager has confirmed there are no plans to put in a time limit and also does not know why... but then I do know him and he can't be bothered with company speak...off the record 😊

and Ps we would visit Old Warden perhaps twice a year and I would pay to go through the hangers wile Mrs K would have a coffee and cake with the Grandchildren...

[Planemike]

It seems quite incomprehensible to me how anyone presenting a business case would seek to prevent free public access to your shop and shopfront in order to improve interest in your warehouse.
One of the greatest joys of OW was the ability to pull in for a coffee, an ice cream or hust to get your breath back on a bile ride and be in the company of some piece of history, and maybe even see it running.
How many of those visitors then sais, "hey' lets's check this place out" and payed the entry to the main site?

Taking away the sweetener is simply idiocy!

Ahhh......be careful, you are using logic!!!

[LynxDriver]

There's a 'Strategic Plan (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiQgMOAxp_yAhWSZMAKHTZNAvMQFnoECAcQAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.shuttleworth.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F06%2FShuttleworth-Trust-Strategic-plan-2021-2026.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2vO5WF9qAPPFKhuBwCzrBe)' (It downloads a PDF) available from the Shuttleworth website.
It includes the usual corporate speak:


The general complaint on the Facebook pages and forums is that they are sucking the unique character out of the place...
The use of the terms BAME and BME are increasingly frowned upon because they emphasise certain ethnic minority groups (Asian and Black) whilst excluding others such as Mixed, Other and White ethnic minority groups.
Who ever was responsible for that needs to bone up on their minority awareness.

[DogTailRed2]

Do we know how many visitors visit just for the shop and cafe?
Old Warden isn't exactly in the centre of town. Most people I would suggest commit to travel quite a distance to visit on an air show day or to visit the museum.
In the 30 years of travelling to Old Warden I have never once visited just for the shop or cafe.

[Asturias56]

"The use of the terms BAME and BME are increasingly frowned upon "

Being volunteered into a "diversity" group all I can say is that things have and are changing so fast in this field the terminology could well have dated back 8 months.

Most people accept any terms as evidence that you are at least trying - but if in doubt ask those directly affected

[Dave Gittins]

Similar experience at Salisbury Cathedral last Thursday. Just having a wander round the town and strolled past the Cathedral towards the river .. was about to go in when saw the sign for £9.00 admission each ... carried on walking past.

[WHBM]

Similar experience at Salisbury Cathedral last Thursday. Just having a wander round the town and strolled past the Cathedral towards the river .. was about to go in when saw the sign for £9.00 admission each ... carried on walking past.
St Paul's Cathedral is now £20. We have a (very) ancient ancestor in one of the tombs in there. It would be nice, if we have a visiting couple of relatives we are showing round London, to pop in and show this to them, which not that many years ago we would readily do. But now that's £80. To see our own family which they have made (a very small) part of their attraction.

Do Old Warden charge the aircraft owners as they come through the gates ? Maybe that's next.

Incidentally, St Paul's makes great play that they don't get any funding from the government. Which is true. They also say they don't get any financial support from the church. Also true. What they leave out is they have very substantial freehold land from long-ago bequests etc, across the City of London and elsewhere, which is on ground rent to City skyscrapers etc. Which gives a huge income. However do people think they managed to keep all looking fine and good for the past several hundred years before they started charging as well ?

[Planemike]

Do we know how many visitors visit just for the shop and cafe?
Old Warden isn't exactly in the centre of town. Most people I would suggest commit to travel quite a distance to visit on an air show day or to visit the museum.
In the 30 years of travelling to Old Warden I have never once visited just for the shop or cafe.
No, maybe not but you like me are not a "local".... I am sure there are "locals" who will drop by to use the café, meet friends etc. Also mention was made of cycling/motor cycling clubs who arrange to meet there. The idea just seems poorly thought through.

[Evanelpus]

[QUOTE=Planemike;11093131]No, maybe not but you like me are not a "local".... I am sure there are "locals" who will drop by to use the café, meet friends etc. Also mention was made of cycling/motor cycling clubs who arrange to meet there. The idea just seems poorly thought through.[/QUOTE

I am a local and we used to meet at OW with son in law, wife and granddaughter. An hour on the playground for the granddaughter, a mooch in the shop (which always ended up buying something!) and 5 breakfasts in the cafe….all in out that’s about £40-45 a trip. As a family, I don’t think we are unique as a family, lots of local families with children used the playground and probably bought food, drinks and food from the cafe.

My brother in law is a member of motor cycling club in Luton and him and his mates used to visit on a regular basis…..now more.

“Poorly thought through” is a polite way of putting it. OW will not be getting anymore of my money in the future.

[meleagertoo]

Evanelpus, couldn't agree more.
My bike group used OW as a regular and favourite watering/cake hole.
I regularly used it as a surprise/treat stopoff with friends when out for the day as the atmosphere was so special, Hey! lets grab an icecream and lo and behold you're licking the drips off in front of an SE5 or Pup. It never failed to impress even the most uninterested females, though I can't vouch for BAMEs.
This is proper human-level access to aviation on a scale all but lost nowdays, a scale that made even veteran flying seem accessible to all. What better way to enthuse youngsters than have them gawping at dope and drippping castor oil across a simple farm fence?

Old Warden is a National Treasure, it seems beyond comprehension that they'd restrict glimpses of the delights within from passers-by when the hardcore attendees will always attend anyway - but how can this increase attendance ot revenue? Clearly it can only have the opposite effect! . By doing this they simply ensure they'll never increase attendance. What is the point of that?

Shuttleworth Trust, sack this buffoon forthwith and revert to open gate, open cafe, for your very survival.

[horatio_b]

Just an example of how museums have been hijacked by the politically correct crowd:

It is a few years since I visited Shildon railway museum in Durham (part of the Science Museum), and I was considering another visit. I looked on the website to check whether any special events were planned. Nothing about special locomotives, but a couple of events taking place throughout 2021:

· Climate Talks, a series of panel discussions, Q&As and events exploring the problems caused by climate change

· Open talk - Explore the issues around diversity and inclusion in STEM (science, technology, engineering and maths)

If I had wanted to learn about climate change or diversity I could switch on practically any programme on BBC. Nowhere seems to be immune from the woke agenda these days.

[Asturias56]

They have to do it to tick the right boxes on any funding application - take it from me - I know.

Any funder or charity, especially a Govt body - now asks questions about inclusivity, climate change etc - because THEY are asked the same questions by their masters in a chain that (eventually) answers to the media.

The answer is not to attend the special meetings - but they'll just record they held one, not the numbers turning up (that's what we do.....)

[clareprop]

St Paul's Cathedral is now £20. We have a (very) ancient ancestor in one of the tombs in there. It would be nice, if we have a visiting couple of relatives we are showing round London, to pop in and show this to them, which not that many years ago we would readily do. But now that's £80. To see our own family which they have made (a very small) part of their attraction.

Tell them you require to be let in for free or you'll take your ancestor somewhere else.

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/590x397/lennon_hearse_602979_11c6ec51f4a34aa54c5f8a203f0324ff1e8d145 d.jpg
Available for Hire.

[WHBM]

Needs two of them; he's in there with his wife ... !

[Dave Gittins]

How does Old Warden think it's different from Redhill ?

Redhill has a very nice café with an outside seating area immediately adjacent to the taxiway, which attracts lots of locals, people with kids, push bikelists, etc. No charge other than to buy stuff from the caff and as a bonus you get to watch us playing with our aeroplanes, watching he plodicopter and air ambulance and the fixed wing and helicopter training flights at quite a busy airfield (at least at weekends).

Can't imagine anybody would expect to charge admission to watch us messing about.

[Self loading bear]

Needs two of them; he's in there with his wife ... !

Hang-on there

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1941x1365/8890e55c_9a36_4d01_b7c3_8c6fa5be3ce7_6ff4af347cab8d8ce2430ab ab6c3cc16f575918a.jpeg

[DaveReidUK]

How does Old Warden think it's different from Redhill ?

Apart from Redhill having loads of commercial paying customers (https://www.redhillaerodrome.com/business-directory) and no museum to run, you mean ?

[Planemike]

The above applies to quite a few aeroclubs (and probably other clubs) I can think of.. Casual visitors are able to drop in to use the facilities: most businesses are happy to have the extra custom.

[Dave Gittins]

Dave ReidUK ... the OP said there was an additional charge for the museum and workshops (quite rightly) and the new charge was just for walking through the gate and being given access to the caff. Of course there are commercial businesses at Redhill .. I fly with one of those listed and mentioned 2 others. The point was that the new charge is simply for being there.

[WHBM]

I wonder how many club members, PPLs, and indeed commercial flyers started off by just dropping in, uncharged, to an airfield somewhere ...

[Kent Based]

Just an example of how museums have been hijacked by the politically correct crowd:

It is a few years since I visited Shildon railway museum in Durham (part of the Science Museum), and I was considering another visit. I looked on the website to check whether any special events were planned. Nothing about special locomotives, but a couple of events taking place throughout 2021:

· Climate Talks, a series of panel discussions, Q&As and events exploring the problems caused by climate change

· Open talk - Explore the issues around diversity and inclusion in STEM (science, technology, engineering and maths)

If I had wanted to learn about climate change or diversity I could switch on practically any programme on BBC. Nowhere seems to be immune from the woke agenda these days.

You may have had issues with your search? The two science based topics you found are learning courses throughout the Science Museum Group. Of course these should be accessible nationwide and not just London.

There's a link to Shildon museum here. As you can see it features heavily on visits from the Flying Scotsman locomotive, exactly as one would have expected.

https://www.locomotion.org.uk/home

[DaveReidUK]

Dave ReidUK ... the OP said there was an additional charge for the museum and workshops (quite rightly) and the new charge was just for walking through the gate and being given access to the caff. Of course there are commercial businesses at Redhill .. I fly with one of those listed and mentioned 2 others. The point was that the new charge is simply for being there.

And my point, which still stands, is that at Old Warden (unlike Redhill) it's the revenue from visitors walking through the gate that is virtually the only source of income.

I was merely attempting to answer your question:

How does Old Warden think it's different from Redhill ?

[rans6andrew]

It will be a bit like when Beeching closed half of the railway stations/lines, the knock on effect came as a surprise in that the busy stations had a fall in numbers because travelers were not able to go to their intended destinations or start from their local stations because they were closed.

My guess is that cafe customer numbers will be reduced and either prices will be increased or opening hours reduced, both of which will further reduce visitor numbers and the downward spiral is gaining momentum. Luckily, there is still plenty of places where you can stop off for a cuppa and a bite to break your road journey without getting striped, some of them even have aircraft activity on flyable days.

If you feel the need to break your journey near to OW you could try Sandy Microlight Club, just by where you turn off the A1 for OW, I had coffee and cake there when I was early for a meeting with someone in Potton a year or two back.

Rans6............

[Nige321]

And my point, which still stands, is that at Old Warden (unlike Redhill) it's the revenue from visitors walking through the gate that is virtually the only source of income.

I was merely attempting to answer your question:

And a fair chunk of those are now not welcome...

[Planemike]

And my point, which still stands, is that at Old Warden (unlike Redhill) it's the revenue from visitors walking through the gate that is virtually the only source of income.:

I wonder if that is really true....?? For example: does the museum benefit from the hangarage charges from the hangar complex on the opposite side of the runway to the museum site......??

[kenparry]

AFAIK the hangarage charges all go into the same pot. The whole site is owned by the Shuttleworth Trust. Another issue is that the Trust over the last decade or more has shown more interest in the Agricultural College than in the flying and aircraft museum aspects, those becoming regarded as a bit of a side show and perhaps even a nuisance. Maybe this is another result of that mindset.

[Less Hair]

Couldn't the agricultural college easily provide the best snacks and refreshments possible if they reside next door? Attracting more people and increasing revenue not by new admission rules but by quality? They could do "green" food or "historic" menus with -say Edwardian- cuisine.

[Dave Gittins]

A completely different approach is taken by St Just at Lands End. They only serve flights to the Scilly Isles but supplement their income by inviting passers-by to their coffee shop and giving 2 hours free parking (normally £4.00). if you buy a cup of coffee (but make sure the staff register you in the APNR system to avoid a penalty charge).

[DHfan]

St Just must have changed since we last tried to call. We used to visit the cafe when we were in the area but after they rebuilt the terminal there didn't seem to be anywhere to just get a cup of tea and a bun. We'll be in Cornwall in a few weeks so might give it another try.

Old Warden has probably got a similar big cheese to the one that abolished Friends of Duxford and combined it with Friends of IWM. I found an FOI request online a while ago and it said that of around 5,000 FoD members, 800 signed up.

[aw ditor]

DHfan the big cheese is one and the same ex Duxford big cheese if you see what I mean. OW has lost its unique atmosphere'. Inevitably some changes due to Covid 19 but not as drastic as this.

[zetec2]

Do the private aircraft owners have to pay the £15 charge to go in and access their aircraft ?, that really would be taking the p1ss.

[POBJOY]

St Just** must have changed since we last tried to call. We used to visit the cafe when we were in the area but after they rebuilt the terminal there didn't seem to be anywhere to just get a cup of tea and a bun. We'll be in Cornwall in a few weeks so might give it another try.

Old Warden has probably got a similar big cheese to the one that abolished Friends of Duxford and combined it with Friends of IWM. I found an FOI request online a while ago and it said that of around 5,000 FoD members, 800 signed up.

Have been there** this year, and tea and buns still available in the rather grand terminal (In the main entrance and turn off to the right) 'to go with hard runways and yellow coats.'
Not quite the same atmosphere of when the cafe was in the old fire engine workshop, but no charge to go in and plane spot, and it is very close to the Islander and Otter hardstanding. Not quite like the days when a Virgin Atlantic Jumbo was doing GPWS training approaches to the extended runway (400 ft cliffs) which got the locals quite excited when I mentioned they were starting a service to Gatwick !!.
Having refreshed yourself there you can make your way down to Geevor Mine Cafe for some excellent fare and a splendid view of the Atlantic swell pounding the cliffs.
On your way back to civilisation call in to Newlyn for a Jelberts ice cream (only one flavour) and quite the best in the west. On your way to the sea front with said IC you will pass an old Rover dealers who still sell MG's and Rovers at bargain prices. You have missed the Red Arrows display at Falmouth (so did everyone else due low cloud and dz)
No Banner towing around the Cornish coast this year thanks to CV19.

[Less Hair]

The key today for museums seems to get families visiting and a younger generation all together. Many have new visitor interest breaking off after the old regular customer generation. I agree that many "upgraded" museums loose their former charm and glory and feel like plastic including museum shops with terrible kitsch and cheap fast food at high prices on offer while exhibitions sometimes get remodelled and woke updated up to same sex restrooms.

To move ahead museums will need visitors This is why they need to be able and permitted to adapt somehow. I agree that not many have found the right way to do it. Old Warden has a great base to start from including the "green" part with farm and animals and the landmark collection with the old aerodrome and active flying. I wish them the very best. If somebody can do it they should hopefully.

[FantomZorbin]

PobJoy I'll second your comment on Geevor Tine Mine cafe :ok::ok:

[ShyTorque]

Hang-on there

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1941x1365/8890e55c_9a36_4d01_b7c3_8c6fa5be3ce7_6ff4af347cab8d8ce2430ab ab6c3cc16f575918a.jpeg

I wouldn’t want to be seen dead in that!

[Less Hair]

...
-I removed it because it might have sounded non sensible to some.-

[DHfan]

We're staying in Penzance for the sixth time in ten years I think, and had been there a couple of times previously, so we know the area fairly well.
The cafe we knew was in the old terminal, quite close to the way out to the hardstanding. I suspect that must have been on one of our much earlier visits, 20 years or so ago. At a glance, the new terminal does seem a bit over the top for a small grass field, but as I said, it didn't look welcoming so we've never been in.

Ice cream no good for me, I don't like the stuff but my other half might have one. Newlyn to us is Lewis's fish 'n' chips or the Harbour Cafe, a fishermans' and locals' place. That's usually on our way to a pint or two in the Ship Inn in Mousehole.

[POBJOY]

PobJoy I'll second your comment on Geevor Tine Mine cafe :ok::ok:

My 'unofficial' callsign when asking for the Lands End weather was 'Teapot', not wishing to place on the recording the not unusual poor weather situation that prevailed at times.
Radar Ron (ex Air India nav on Connies) would reply (I am not seeing the windsock Teapot ) which indicated a precision approach up the valley, followed by tea & buns at the Chocks Away cafe !!! (the cafe had been constructed in the said F eng workshop by one Brian Neely back in the wonderful days of Scillonia (Rapides) Airways and was actually opened by Elizabeth Taylor ) only Brian could have arranged that. Original Rapide 'ex BEA' came back a few years back for an anniversary event, a Dragon came back before that.

[treadigraph]

Cor, talk about thread drift! :)

Re Elizabeth Taylor and St Just, there was something recently about my brother bunking off school and being there when she opened the terminal - I think he found some film of the event on YouTube or something and wasn't quite in the shot but his fellow scholastic escapologist was.

Edit: ah, she was at Lands End to greet a polio sufferer who walked there from John O'Groats to raise money for a charity. 1969.

[POBJOY]

Cor, talk about thread drift! :)

Re Elizabeth Taylor and St Just, there was something recently about my brother bunking off school and being there when she opened the terminal - I think he found some film of the event on YouTube or something and wasn't quite in the shot but his fellow scholastic escapologist was.

Brian (who had been on BEA Comets ) ran St Just rather like a rest home for BEA Pilots who were not overemployed at the time. In fact the operation was run by corporation types on leave or between rosters. Years later the odd chap (but now on Boeings) would call in to look over the place where he had once played with Rapides. The cafe 'pond' was the old inspection pit which in Brians day sometimes contained sea water with a lobster in situ. The approach aids were muti coloured telegraph poles on the approach which survived up to a few years ago. The main business was pleasure trips and flying shellfish to France. After Brians 'holiday' in the middle east all the equipment and Aircraft went to auction, and eventually Viv Bellamy arrived and started a flying club alongside the pleasure flying. Westward airways began charter ops to Scillies with Islander and C337 and later the the Steamship co took over with its first Islander (eventually 5) and then the Otters. A common theme during all this (and now) is the ability of the place to 'clamp' in minutes which can last for a couple of days at a time. (hence need for an excellent cafe)
No doubt opening the St Just cafe was Liz Taylors career high spot !!

[Dave Gittins]

The weather at St Just was certainly iffy when we were there in early June. The Twotters and Islanders were stuck for the day due to or vis. No flights until the next day. The aeroplanes were certainly close to the terminal.

I repeat the words of warning, if you visit the caff make sure your car reg is in the APNR machine to avoid a hefty penalty charge.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/img_9258_twotter_at_st_just_3bc2264ecf145908c60690f48201bfb1 8fe9f7ea.jpg

[Good Vibs]

Just curious for future planning....Where do you park now?
I looked at the sat photo of Shuttleworth and see no larger paved area to park.
The largest paved parking area I can see is the one I've always used before which is just off Hill Lane outside the old entrance and cafe.
Thanks

[VictorGolf]

I was there last week and we parked in the grass paddock to the left of the hangars as you come in from the new road.

[kration]

And does the Swiss Garden still give you access?

[DaveReidUK]

I was there last week and we parked in the grass paddock to the left of the hangars as you come in from the new road.

Estate map (https://www.shuttleworth.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Shuttleworth-Site-Map-2021-NEW-ROAD.pdf) showing how to reach the car park from the new entrance.

And does the Swiss Garden still give you access?

Yes (https://www.shuttleworth.org/explore/swiss-garden/).

[Shackman]

Shame - it was always a nice spot to stop and have a tea and sandwich/cakes in the cafe - only 5 mins or so off the A1 but a nice environment and the chance of seeing something interesting. Now it looks like a long detour, and once inside a grass parking are on the 'wrong' side of the buildings which should be interesting after the recent rains. I wonder if they'll charge for towing vehicles out of the quagmire? Sorry, but bye bye Shuttleworth. I know my contribution to the running costs wasn't much, but how many other 'small contributions' will they lose. Never mind, there's always the kids playground.

[Allan Lupton]

The key today for museums seems to get families visiting and a younger generation all together. Many have new visitor interest breaking off after the old regular customer generation. I agree that many "upgraded" museums loose their former charm and glory and feel like plastic including museum shops with terrible kitsch and cheap fast food at high prices on offer while exhibitions sometimes get remodelled and woke updated up to same sex restrooms.
The altered priorities of the Brooklands Museum have been evident in the TV series we in the UK have just endured. The professional museum keeper there, and elsewhere, is the subject of a serious discussion in another place. I gather from that discussion that the Birmingham Museum of Science and Technology has been re-purposed as the Birmingham Thinktank, whatever that may mean.
It is some time since we could visit the Science Museum's aerodrome site at Wroughton at all to see the objects they have (which include those once on show at South Ken.) and even longer since the curator drove a Museum car on the Brighton Run. As for their aeroplanes I think we will never see any of 'em in the air.

[DaveReidUK]

It is some time since we could visit the Science Museum's aerodrome site at Wroughton at all to see the objects they have (which include those once on show at South Ken.) and even longer since the curator drove a Museum car on the Brighton Run. As for their aeroplanes I think we will never see any of 'em in the air.

You mean their Connie, Comet and Trident are unlikely ever to fly again ?

[Allan Lupton]

You mean their Connie, Comet and Trident are unlikely ever to fly again ?
Well yes of course, but there are (or were) a number of early aeroplanes which would be much easier to bring into flying order.

[DHfan]

I doubt there was ever any intention of any of the aircraft flying again.

[DaveReidUK]

I'd settle for the Wroughton collection simply being made accessible to the public.

[VM325]

Looks as though the management has done a U-turn on the way the site is accessed.

Admissions

· Our admission entrance will be moving into the visitor centre, with all visitors now entering and exiting the attraction via the shop.

· Admission pricing is being updated with adults paying £15.50 and a concessionary rate of £14.00, children under 16 remain free and members continue to have access to all admission areas.

· Areas within the new admission structure include the Collection Hangars, Swiss Garden, Woodland Walk and Engineering Hangar.

· A newly adapted dog walking route within the admission zone has been created, walking the outskirts of the garden and around the woodland before returning to the shop, just a reminder dogs are not permitted within the Runway Café. Please enter through the dog friendly discovery hub with your furry friends.

Runway Café

· The Runway Café will open to the general public on a daily basis, serving a range of locally sourced freshly prepared meals.

· Breakfast served until 11:30am and lunch between 12:00pm and 15:00pm.

· A new parking area will open outside the Runway Café with additional blue badge parking introduced

General Public Areas

· The playground will be open to the general public.
· The shop will also be open to the general public
· The grass paddocks will open to the public to enjoy the airfield.
· Public toilet facilities are located within the Runway Café.

Entering the site

· Both Hill Lane and Alder Drive Entrances will be open to enter and exit the site. Alder Drive will remain the sole entrance on event days, these dates will be clearly communicated, the first of which will be Saturday 8th and Sunday 9th April for the Easter Bunny Fly In.

· Summer opening times remain unchanged – 10:00am till 17:00pm.

[DHfan]

DHfan the big cheese is one and the same ex Duxford big cheese if you see what I mean. OW has lost its unique atmosphere'. Inevitably some changes due to Covid 19 but not as drastic as this.

It seems possible that the big cheese has either been fired, taken outside and shot or has left to cause carnage somewhere else.
I hope he's added "incompetent pillock full of useless ideas" to his CV.

An email from Shuttleworth today states that the Runway Cafe will open to the general public with a new parking area outside.

[chevvron]

I'd settle for the Wroughton collection simply being made accessible to the public.
When Ross Sharpe was in charge (about 1992) he had great plans for Wroughton, then unfortunately he 'went'.
Don't know why or how but he was an excellent guy.

[chevvron]

You mean their Connie, Comet and Trident are unlikely ever to fly again ?
Not without destroying huge swathes of solar panels.

[Pypard]

Somewhat belatedly, but I hadn't noticed the text, "In 2018, we embarked on an ambitious project (https://www.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/project/collection/) to create a new, publicly accessible home for over 300,000 items from the collection at the National Collections Centre. The first of these objects began arriving at their new home in June 2021. This purpose-built facility will transform public access to the collection when it opens regularly for public tours, school and research visits from 2024."

So hopefully those who seek outrage will be able to seek it elsewhere.

[22/04]

An email from Shuttleworth today states that the Runway Cafe will open to the general public with a new parking area outside

And I understand the old entrance available at certain times.

[Fargo Boyle]

An extract from an email received today from OW

Our admission entrance will be moving into the visitor centre, with all visitors now entering and exiting the attraction via the shop.

· Admission pricing is being updated with adults paying £15.50 and a concessionary rate of £14.00, children under 16 remain free and members continue to have access to all admission areas.

· Areas within the new admission structure include the Collection Hangars, Swiss Garden, Woodland Walk and Engineering Hangar.

· A newly adapted dog walking route within the admission zone has been created, walking the outskirts of the garden and around the woodland before returning to the shop, just a reminder dogs are not permitted within the Runway Café. Please enter through the dog friendly discovery hub with your furry friends.

Runway Café

· The Runway Café will open to the general public on a daily basis, serving a range of locally sourced freshly prepared meals.

· Breakfast served until 11:30am and lunch between 12:00pm and 15:00pm.

· A new parking area will open outside the Runway Café with additional blue badge parking introduced

[DHfan]

To add to discussions on the previous page, we did call into the cafe at St Just airport in September 2021.
We were served some decidedly average and outrageously priced coffees, in cardboard cups, by an extremely surly woman behind the counter.
I can't remember now about buns/cakes but we won't be returning.

[mikemmb]

An extract from an email received today from OW

Our admission entrance will be moving into the visitor centre, with all visitors now entering and exiting the attraction via the shop.

· Admission pricing is being updated with adults paying £15.50 and a concessionary rate of £14.00, children under 16 remain free and members continue to have access to all admission areas.

· Areas within the new admission structure include the Collection Hangars, Swiss Garden, Woodland Walk and Engineering Hangar.

· A newly adapted dog walking route within the admission zone has been created, walking the outskirts of the garden and around the woodland before returning to the shop, just a reminder dogs are not permitted within the Runway Café. Please enter through the dog friendly discovery hub with your furry friends.

Runway Café

· The Runway Café will open to the general public on a daily basis, serving a range of locally sourced freshly prepared meals.

· Breakfast served until 11:30am and lunch between 12:00pm and 15:00pm.

· A new parking area will open outside the Runway Café with additional blue badge parking introduced

Fantastic news, an outbreak of sanity at last.
Must call in next time I’m passing!

[Planemike]

The visitor experience manager at Old Warden has only been in the job since March. Before that he had a similar role at the RAF Museum. Doesn't bode well.......
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/james-ponton-a8081969

It would appear that Old Warden's ""visitor experience manager"" was not in post for very long.

[DHfan]

According to aw ditor it's the same fool who abolished Friends of Duxford and appears to have demanded a larger slice of the Legends takings.

He wasn't at Duxford very long either.

[mikemmb]

According to aw ditor it's the same fool who abolished Friends of Duxford and appears to have demanded a larger slice of the Legends takings.

He wasn't at Duxford very long either.

But the worrying thought is where next ……Answers on a postcard!

[Planemike]

But the worrying thought is where next ……Answers on a postcard!
It would appear that Bentley Priory Museum are enjoying (??) the benefit of his professional expertise at the moment.

[treadigraph]

According to aw ditor it's the same fool who abolished Friends of Duxford and appears to have demanded a larger slice of the Legends takings.

He wasn't at Duxford very long either.
Was Duxford him? Thought it was a lady causing woe there... or woah there...

[DHfan]

I was going by aw ditor's response to me in post #74 but I think that must have been just about abolishing Friends of Duxford.

By the time the Legends question came up, he was causing carnage at Old Warden so it must have been somebody else.

[POBJOY]

To add to discussions on the previous page, we did call into the cafe at St Just airport in September 2021.
We were served some decidedly average and outrageously priced coffees, in cardboard cups, by an extremely surly woman behind the counter.
I can't remember now about buns/cakes but we won't be returning.

As a local based occasional user of the Airport catering facility at Lands End (St Just) I have to say that this free to use facility is quite acceptable as a commercial airport coffee spot. Not only that but it offers a very close view (for the spotters) of the operations thrown in. Not quite the previous rural atmosphere of the 'homemade' 'Chocks Away Cafe', but it offers a service to all who have a choice whether to use it or not. On a slightly historical note the original Airport cafe operated by Scillonia Airways (Rapides) utilised the former fire engine building (complete with service pit) This was opened decades ago by one Elizabeth Taylor who happened to be filming nearby, the service pit becoming a fish pool. Another good spot is the nearby Geevor Tin Mine cafe that has fantastic views out to sea plus excellent food. Of course those of us of a certain age also remember the classic Dillows at Biggin Hill.

[treadigraph]

Dillows at Biggin? Presume not the cafe in the buildings along the north side of Surrey Aviation/Fairflight?

[POBJOY]

Dillows (run by one Mary Dillow) was the definitive Biggin cafe, situated on the 'South Camp' alongside the tin hangar and facing across the apron (with its geenhouse mini tower).
The meeting point for anything aviation happening at Biggin, and frequented by all. Biggin had become the home for civil aviation in 59 when Croydon closed, and apart from 'Surrey and Kent' (formerly Surrey flying club) was soon the base for over a dozen clubs/groups. 'Jock' started the 'Air Fairs' and Biggin was civil flying in the South East. Mary was a widow after her husband tried one loop to many in a Turbulent !!.
Treads do you still have an image of BTC at St Just in the 80's.

[DHfan]

As a local based occasional user of the Airport catering facility at Lands End (St Just) I have to say that this free to use facility is quite acceptable as a commercial airport coffee spot. Not only that but it offers a very close view (for the spotters) of the operations thrown in. Not quite the previous rural atmosphere of the 'homemade' 'Chocks Away Cafe', but it offers a service to all who have a choice whether to use it or not. On a slightly historical note the original Airport cafe operated by Scillonia Airways (Rapides) utilised the former fire engine building (complete with service pit) This was opened decades ago by one Elizabeth Taylor who happened to be filming nearby, the service pit becoming a fish pool. Another good spot is the nearby Geevor Tin Mine cafe that has fantastic views out to sea plus excellent food. Of course those of us of a certain age also remember the classic Dillows at Biggin Hill.

No, still not going back.
We'll go down the road to St Just itself, call into McFaddens (fifth generation farmers and butchers) for a few pasties then decamp into the Star Inn a few doors along.

[chevvron]

Just as long as it's a 'local' pastie, not one of those bloody awful Ginsters things they sell in Surrey.

[DHfan]

Oh yes. Made by McFaddens themselves.

Sadly, we're not going until September.

[treadigraph]

Dillows (run by one Mary Dillow) was the definitive Biggin cafe, situated on the 'South Camp' alongside the tin hangar and facing across the apron (with its geenhouse mini tower).
The meeting point for anything aviation happening at Biggin, and frequented by all. Biggin had become the home for civil aviation in 59 when Croydon closed, and apart from 'Surrey and Kent' (formerly Surrey flying club) was soon the base for over a dozen clubs/groups. 'Jock' started the 'Air Fairs' and Biggin was civil flying in the South East. Mary was a widow after her husband tried one loop to many in a Turbulent !!.
Treads do you still have an image of BTC at St Just in the 80's.
Not sure if that's the same cafe or not - one I recall in the 1970s was in the huts along edge of Fairflight/Surrey aviation and overlooking ramp with old tower and the bus on the far side - the "grandstand" building to the left and a knackered old hangar... bloke who is now a good mate apparently used to work in there during the hols and probably sold me my usual mars bar and can of Fanta, give me the enery to cycle back up the other side of the valley! I recall reading a snippet about the Turb losing a wing...

Air Britain host a pic of 'BTC at St Just https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1283402

Ah St Just and the Star - last time I was there was during the St Valentines Day storm in 2014 - eating a pasty in the lee of one of the pubs, not sure if it was Warrens or McFaddens, but I do recall the rain getting in through the windows of the Kings Arms... Much prefer the Star.

[chevvron]

Oh yes. Made by McFaddens themselves.

Sadly, we're not going until September.
Now that name rings a bell. I didn't go into the Co-op today but that sounds like the brand they have in their hot food cabinet so if you want to go to Lightwater, Surrey, (about 15 min by taxi from Fairoaks) you might get one there otherwise I'll have to eat them all and very nice they are too.:ok:

[DHfan]

Lightwater's a fair step from North-East Derbyshire...

It's possible but seems unlikely to be the same people. It's a family business, five generations as I said, with only the one shop. No idea where their farm is, apart from Cornwall, and they don't do mail-order, I checked.
A 700-odd mile round trip to pick up a couple of pasties from here seems a bit excessive too so we'll have to wait until September.

Re Warrens. I'm not sure but I think we prefer Rowes, or even better, Philps.

[treadigraph]

I'll be in Lightwater next week, I shall check the Co-op's pasties for authenticity...

Wouldn't do Warren's by choice, usually look for something less ubiquitous...

[chevvron]

Last time I was in Guildford there was a pasty shop.....

[uxb99]

Can I add into the mix the worst change of any military museum ever. The blocking out of the beautiful and bright glass roof at IWM Lambeth with a concrete floor and adding dark, dingy pillars to what was a very bright and airy museum.
Combine that with poor exhibit signage and IWM Lambeth has gone from one of the best, to one of the worst museums in the UK imho.

[POBJOY]

There we are, we have solved the Old Warden problem 'They need to open a 'pasty shop' and then hold the worlds only 'pasty fly in' .
We can bring in a shed load** direct from L-End and avoid customs duty.
Hot news down here at present is local Pasty company taken over by the French !!!
Question is how many Cornish standard pasties can you get in a BN2 (without using the seat next to the driver)
Where is the BTC image Treads !!!, It took a Xmas cake from L-End to Iran in 81.

[treadigraph]

Did you send me one in the past Pobjoy? Can't see it in my albums....

[JOE-FBS]

While at the espionage air display last week, I spotted that a small Ukranian flag has been attached to a wing strut on both sides of the soviet Po-2. A subtle but effective corporate gesture. Well done Shuttleworth.