BEA Vickers Vanguard

[GBOAA]

Were the Merchantman freighter conversions done at Heathrow?

[DaveReidUK]

At least some were. Bay 20, IIRC.

[bean]

First one was done by Aviation Traders at Southend (G-APEM)

[GBOAA]

Thanks.I have a Vanguard window but tracing which aircraft it came from is impossible.

[treadigraph]

Wiki says two done by Aviation Traders, the other seven were completed by BEA using ATL kits.

(My mate converted his Airfix Vanguard kit in his bedroom using plans in some modelling mag article circa 1975 - looked very nice too when he finished it in the Speedjack scheme.)

[browndhc2]

Bay 20 ?
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/607x398/g_apek_oct_69_8e1e7114c52ffcfec7d1717316675fe1b82d7eba.jpg

[DaveReidUK]

Yes, that's Bay 20 (southernmost of the 5 bays facing Eastchurch Road). Bay 16 (the northernmost) was the paint bay.

All long gone, of course.

[aeromech3]

Spent some of my post Apprenticeship months there on; the other major job was cutting the outer off skin, in areas of the fuselage that had de-laminated, then fitting repair inserts and doublers.

[SpringHeeledJack]

Were the Merpati Vanguards converted there, or was that just heavy maintenance, no conversion. I can't recall if they had windows or not!

[DaveReidUK]

Merpati's Vanguards were passenger aircraft - 4 ex BEA/BA and 7 former Air Canada aircraft.

[dixi188]

RE. Vanguard differences, I was once told that the BEA ones used OM15/ DTD585, etc., hydraulic fluid and the TCA ones used Skydrol. I think this is highly unlikely as all the components would have to have different types of seals.
Can anyone confirm please?

[GBOAA]

I have a window from a BEA example but don't know which aircraft exactly.

[aeromech3]

RE. Vanguard differences, I was once told that the BEA ones used OM15/ DTD585, etc., hydraulic fluid and the TCA ones used Skydrol. I think this is highly unlikely as all the components would have to have different types of seals.
Can anyone confirm please?
From those days, I understood that to be the case.

[jerry attric]

Ref the Merpati Vanguards, the first two were a 951 on dry lease and a 952 on a wet lease. The 952 used skydrol,, the 951 dtd585. The 951 was G-APEF and still had the red wings of the BEA paint scheme. I last saw it parked on the cross runway at Kemayoran airport. The 952 came with a complete spares package in the form of a complete aircraft which was parked at the north end of the airport. UK expats maintained the 952, locals the 951. The routes were Jakarta-Medan, Jakarta Surabaya and Jakarta-Surabaya-Makassar- Biak.

[DaveReidUK]

From those days, I understood that to be the case.

Interesting.

TCA/Air Canada's Vanguards overlapped with their Viscounts for many years - I wonder if the latter used Skydrol too ?

[dixi188]

Never came accross a Viscount using Skydrol.
When we were getting the Electra at Channex someone ordered some Skydrol. It sat in the stores for years as the Electra used DTD585/H5606/OM15 (Red stuff).

[oldpax]

Did this company design and build their own aircraft once?

[treadigraph]

Yes, the Accountant. The figures didn't seem to add up though...

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/382x255/at_accountant_b0ca235365904aa8d940312027a4f5ed43c950e1.jpg
Plus the Carvair which was a DC-4 with a new nose and a DC-7 fin...

[DH106]

DC-7C fin. The -7 and the -7B had the DC-6 fin.

[washoutt]

I have always wondered about the enormeous fin of the Accountant. Probably of the smal momentum arm of such a short aircraft, is that correct? I also wonder about the long tail cone, looks like a submarine detection system. Anybody an idea?

[Haraka]

washoutt It's the anti spin parachute housing.

[treadigraph]

DH106, hadn't realised only the C had the bigger fin, only place I've seen 7s on the hoof was Cockroach Corner and I identified the 7s largely by their fins - maybe they were all 7Cs, there weren't many even then nearly 40 years ago. Lots of 6s.

[WHBM]

I identified the 7s largely by their fins.
DC4 - rounded windows
DC6 - squared windows, three-bladed props
DC7 - four-bladed props.

PSA in their early years in California, up against United and Western with DC6s, and with passengers savvy to this difference, painted squared window outlines in black paint round their DC4 windows :) .

The long-lived Merpati Vanguards were part of a (then) Indonesian government regulation that allowed competitors to Garuda on domestic flights, but not jets, which only Garuda were allowed. It gave a last hurrah for passenger Vanguards and Electras.

The Merchantman conversions had a number of oddball assignments. Taking the female panda Chi-Chi from London to Moscow zoo for a "date" with their male panda An-An (nothing resulted from it) was one such in front of all the media. Returned in an Antonov 12. More interesting but less prominent was they were used on several flights to take the BA-specified and UK-built cabin fittings for the first BA Tristars to the Lockheed assembly plant in Palmdale, California, routing via Montreal and Calgary, ports where Air Canada engineers knew the Vanguard, and likely still had spares in the stores. It was unknown in the USA, where the Electra dominated. If you ever saw the two types side-by-side on the ramp, you realised how much bigger the Vanguard was than the Electra, in all dimensions.

[pax britanica]

WHBM, I am old enough to have seen the Electra and Vanguard together at LHR and you are so right, the Elkectra wa smore like an oversized Viscount and of course didnt have the deep and wide fuselage of the Vanguard which was still a pretty big aricraft up against 707s and DC8s. The only thin about the Electra that was bigger was the smoke trail

its actually hard to look back and compare .'giant airliners ' from the 50s and 60s to something like a 777. A few years ago I saw a DC 6 at Blackbushe and it didnt dominate its surroundings like I thought . probably no bigger than ATR 72 or similar . Itw as great to see and hear it , perhaps the last time I will ever hear the music of 4 big radials

[dixi188]

Re. the Electra skoke.
We were doing training in the circuit at Birmingham one clear, still, winter's day and you could see the smoke hanging in the sky where the previous circuit had been. After about 5 or 6 circuits the whole sky had a hint of brown about it.
I wonder what Greta would say?

[treadigraph]

"How dare you!"

Re Indonesian Vanguards, Alexander Frater recounts a trip on a "Super Viscount" during his Beyond the Blue Horizon odyssey - I assumed it was a Mandala Electra from the description, but it's been a while since I read it and no idea where my copy is. Anybody got a firm idea of what he did fly on - I vaguely recall him saying it had radials but I'm sure he or I have got that wrong? Can't even recall the airline...

[WHBM]

Re Indonesian Vanguards, Alexander Frater recounts a trip on a "Super Viscount" during his Beyond the Blue Horizon odyssey - I assumed it was a Mandala Electra from the description, but it's been a while since I read it and no idea where my copy is. Anybody got a firm idea of what he did fly on - I vaguely recall him saying it had radials but I'm sure he or I have got that wrong? Can't even recall the airline...
Always fascinated me too. He didn't actually travel on it, despite the best endeavours of a ticket tout. It was a Merpati Vanguard, his error was mistaking Mandala for Merpati. Alex, Australian, would be very familiar with the Electra, as his father was Chief Medical Officer of Health in Fiji (mentioned in the book), and the Qantas Electra ran there and on to Tahiti all through the 1960s. It doesn't have radials of course, but does have a notably large cowling. Both Mandala and Merpati had Viscounts, then Mandala went for Electras and Merpati for Vanguards. The book trip happened in 1984, 10 years after BA withdrew the Vanguard.

It's one of my favourite books, and he is excused the odd technical lapse :) .

There was a long Propliner account back in the late 1980s by someone who went to Indonesia and rode on all of the Viscount, Vanguard and Electra, the latter a lengthy all day trip the length of the country via intermediate stops.

[Herod]

Frater didn't fly on it, but had a look around. It was Mandala. "Its four engines looked like antique air-cooled radials, and even the three-bladed propellers had been burnished...What was it? A converted Flying Fortress? A restyled Lanc? Or something built locally from bamboo and hammered Capstan cigarette tins? I tried to find out."

"I approached the marshal "Viscount" he snapped. "That's no Viscount". "It's a Super Viscount""

My guess? Most likely an Electra.

I only found this because I've recently read the book, and knew where to find the bits.

[Liffy 1M]

The actual extract from Frater's book (https://books.google.ie/books?id=wLZe1_2sL30C&pg=PA331&lpg=PA331&dq=indonesia+%22super+viscount%22&source=bl&ots=rBvSGxpiGU&sig=ACfU3U26Ys4XTpPCEqzSHLz7KybPBlGgrQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjC5daDqZXyAhWQiVwKHZHuDGMQ6AEwEXoECBYQAw#v=onepag e&q=indonesia%20%22super%20viscount%22&f=false)

[stilton]

Yes, the Accountant. The figures didn't seem to add up though...

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/382x255/at_accountant_b0ca235365904aa8d940312027a4f5ed43c950e1.jpg
Plus the Carvair which was a DC-4 with a new nose and a DC-7 fin...


I actually like the way it looks but naming an aircraft ‘Accountant’ ?


Doesn’t really grab the imagination..

[DaveReidUK]

It was a calculated risk.

[washoutt]

Haraka, thanks, makes sense. Did many aircraft prototypes have special safety arrangements, like this anti spin paracgute, or the tail rockets on the Fokker 100 for deep stall trials? I rember it also had a belly slide to evacuate if need be.

[treadigraph]

Thanks for the info about the Super Viscount, chaps! I must search the book out and read again, one of my favourites also.

Washoutt, I think the prototype Concordes had a crew escape hatch to make simplify bail out in an irrecoverable situation, not found in the production aircraft.

I've seen quite a few pics of light aircraft with anti-spin 'chutes fitted over the years, presumably while exploring low speed or aerobatic handling,

[Haraka]

OK, I'll repeat the old joke about the Accountant,
Originally the plan was to have three prototypes.
The Accountant
The Auditor
and
The Receiver
Despite the howls and denials, the word in the industry put the Avro 748 very much in the frame as greatly benefitting from what was learned.the hard way by Aviation Traders.

[Liffy 1M]

This is a good article on the ATEL Accountant: https://www.key.aero/article/atl90-accountant-counting-cost

[WHBM]

Freddie Laker must have been behind the Accountant prototype, being CEO of ATEL at the time. A less beancounter-like aviation executive is hard to imagine !

[washoutt]

The fuselage is all double curved in shape. therefore high production cost.

[chevvron]

Yes, the Accountant. The figures didn't seem to add up though...

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/382x255/at_accountant_b0ca235365904aa8d940312027a4f5ed43c950e1.jpg
Plus the Carvair which was a DC-4 with a new nose and a DC-7 fin...
At Abingdon in May '62, I saw a twin engined aircraft of this size which I knew wasn't an AV748, so surmised it was an accountant.
Little did I know the Grumman Gulfstream had arrived in the country.

[GBOAA]

Here's the writing on my window.

https://i.imgur.com/2zcbolI.jpg

[DaveReidUK]

I wonder if "W905" is still with us.

[GBOAA]

I believe '900' refers to the Vanguard and '27' the centre fuselage.

SHT or sheet is a drawing number.

Don't know what W905 is about though.

[QA1]

I think W905 may have been a workshop designation.

[DaveReidUK]

I think W905 may have been a workshop designation.

No, I'm pretty sure it's an inspector's stamp number - there's no sign of any other inspection mark to verify the "Tested" status.

[stevef]

Here's the writing on my window.

https://i.imgur.com/2zcbolI.jpg
The 90027 part number prefix suddenly sucked me right back to the early '80s when I worked in a bay overhauling Merchantman landing gears. 90026 = NLG, 90052 = MLG. Meanwhile I can't remember what I did last week. :{
Apropos of the Vanguard - Merchantman conversions, one of the Air Bridge old-timers told me that all the floorbeams were lowered by two inches as part of the modification. Anyone else chip in on that?

[G-ARZG]

The 90027 part number prefix suddenly sucked me right back to the early '80s when I worked in a bay overhauling Merchantman landing gears. 90026 = NLG, 90052 = MLG. Meanwhile I can't remember what I did last week. :{
Apropos of the Vanguard - Merchantman conversions, one of the Air Bridge old-timers told me that all the floorbeams were lowered by two inches as part of the modification. Anyone else chip in on that?

Same here, but Hatfield-speak, rather than Weybridge. I can still remember Trident cabin window part nrs (21-3FA305-1,IIRC), but birthdays? No chance!

[OxfordGold]

The BEA Vanguard Simulator cockpit section is at Bournemouth Aviation Museum and always open for a sit in,

[DaveReidUK]

Apropos of the Vanguard - Merchantman conversions, one of the Air Bridge old-timers told me that all the floorbeams were lowered by two inches as part of the modification. Anyone else chip in on that?

First time I've ever heard that. Doing so would have involved a massive amount of work and would likely have destroyed the economics of the conversion.

[Lance Shippey]

"Sits on Tail"

Early 70's MAN. A slight ground shudder outside the general aviation apron / BEA cargo centre. I went out of the office, to find a Merchantman with its nose facing skyward, and the tail sitting firmly on the ground. A netted loaded pallet had been pushed though the front loading door, and pushed back through the a/c. Without the foresight of a "Tail stay" to keep the a/c firmly on the ground, the loaders required an immediate change of underwear After a damage assessment, it was decided that a volunteer crew should be sought to flight the a/c at lower than normal flight level to LHR for repair. I remember a "Mega crane" being hired, with a sling being fitted to the front of the a/c in order that the nose wheel didn't come down with a bang. Did we learn from this ? as the Americans say "Hell No" The same thing happened again a week or so later, with a further Merchantman sitting on it tail on the domestic pier apron ( due to LHR diversions ). This time I think some kindly employee had removed the tail stay to use on another Merchantman..

I remember a similar problem when working at FRA with the TU134, Aeroflot would bring a loadmaster with them on the a/c and have the cargo delivered to a/c for their instruction on loading. I think the TU154 had a similar problem ?

Lance Shippey

[sandringham1]

Apropos of the Vanguard - Merchantman conversions, one of the Air Bridge old-timers told me that all the floorbeams were lowered by two inches as part of the modification. Anyone else chip in on that?

Bit late to the party on this old post but lowering the floor beams would have been impossible as they have to attach to the fuselage sides exactly on the joint line between the upper and lower bubbles, placing them anywhere else just wouldn't work. A more likely explanation is that the floor was raised by 2 inches when the roller floor was added on top of the existing beams.
The 90027 Sht 2339 is the Vickers part number, 900 being the Vanguard prefix, and W905 is the BEA parent workshop designation.

Richard

[Cymmon]

Ilyushin 62 had a similar problem.

[stevef]

Re the lowered Merchantman floor, I've just found this Pprune Vanguard thread from 2009, entaxei's post #76. I does sound like a lot of work but it must have been worthwhile modification.

https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/374573-vanguard-4.html#post5114900

Quote:
I worked on the hangers for a number of years on production control, including on the Vanguard conversion, re Merchantman floor height - yes they were lowered to accommodate the size of the std containers then being used, we also had to modify the fuse structure to take the door frames and additional loading. Each conversion lasted some weeks, it was a full stripdown.

[WHBM]

... one of the Air Bridge old-timers told me that all the floorbeams were lowered by two inches as part of the modification.

... lowering the floor beams would have been impossible as they have to attach to the fuselage sides exactly on the joint line between the upper and lower bubbles, placing them anywhere else just wouldn't work.
Well, the ABC Merchantman is in the museum at Brooklands, open to visitors. Would any engineer like to put their head in and say one way or the other ... ?

[DaveReidUK]

I have a distant memory of doing a run-up (on all 4) on a cold night-shift at LHR around 1975 following an engine change on a Merchantman (a good exercise in putting one's faith in brakes and chocks :O).

If the main deck floor had been lowered during the conversion, presumably that would have resulted in there being a step up into the flight deck. I don't recollect there being one (I'd probably have tripped up over it), but I may be mistaken about that.

[stevef]

The last time I worked on a Merchantman was about 35 years ago and I can't remember the floor structural layout but I imagine a solution to lowering beams might be to keep the existing attachment layout on the fuselage double-bubble frames but the beams themselves would have their top flanges 2" lower.
A very wide and shallow 'U' shape with the vertical flanges being attached to the frames if you like. (____________) instead of the conventional (--------------------)
Of course it might be nothing like that!

[chevvron]

Ilyushin 62 had a similar problem.
RAF VC10s at Brize have done it several times.
I've seen Cessna Caravans where the pilot jumps out after stopping and puts a stay in before the passengers move.

[dixi188]

Had an Electra on it's tail at Bournemouth, the nose wheel off the ground on a freighter BAC 1-11 and an A300. The last two rescued by rapid movement of people.
P.S. It wasn't me doing the loading.

[BEagle]

RAF VC10s at Brize have done it several times

Only once, as far as I know, due to incompetent groundcrew neglecting to check fin tank contents....

[Discorde]

I have a distant memory of doing a run-up (on all 4) on a cold night-shift at LHR around 1975 following an engine change on a Merchantman (a good exercise in putting one's faith in brakes and chocks :O).

You'll be familiar with Stand 319, then, where the Merchantman ops were based. Most of the flights were scheduled at night. One of the grimmest was 0200 LHR-CPH-LHR. Airborne from LHR - head northeast for approx an hour towards Heligoland, turn left a few degrees - head northeast for approx another hour - land CPH. Hour turnround then back along the same route.


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/878x1279/1972_vang_prop_luqa_80a2c0a6fa84e04c7808b578c517ed98ef305a0e .jpg

In Feb 1972 G-APED and 'EF were temporarily based in Malta for circuit training for pilots converting onto the Vanguard/Merchantman. While at Luqa one of the Tynes on one of these aircraft dumped all its engine oil through a failed seal on its prop hub. I took this pic during the prop change (possibly repair rather than replacement - it looks like a prop hub lying on the trolley).

A description of Merchantman ops can be found in the book 'The Damocles Plot'.

[Discorde]

Besides the cargo door and ball-bearing cabin floor another tech difference on the Merch was the pressurisation system, supplied only by a compressor on eng 3, rather than 2 and 3 on the Vanguard, presumably to reduce maintenance costs or fuel burn or both. So an inflight shut down of eng 3 would also require donning O2 masks.

On arrival on stand it was standard practice to shut down engines 1, 2, and 3 but leave 4 running until the cargo door had been opened by one of the pilots, presumably to reduce loads on the battery before the GPU was plugged in.

[WHBM]

I have a distant memory of doing a run-up (on all 4) on a cold night-shift at LHR around 1975 following an engine change on a Merchantman (a good exercise in putting one's faith in brakes and chocks
Though presumably with the prop blades fully feathered, so you're not going anywhere.

Unlike a jet engine test - particularly the Comet at LHR just a few years before you, which suddenly lunged forward as Viscount chocks had been incorrectly used on it, striking the hangar doors in front of it and bringing them down on the tail of G-ARPI which happened to be inside. Poor old Papa India, not its first mishap (it also was the aircraft which lost its tail in the Ambassador accident), and not its last, being of course the subsequent Staines accident aircraft. I believe an initial investigation was to thoroughly check its multiple repairs to be sure that they had nothing to do with the accident.

Meanwhile, at the same time I was at university in Edinburgh. This was before the current main runway was opened, when 12/30 was the main runway. Crosswind to the prevailing wind and not too long. The airport authority and BA said that Tridents were impossible on it, and the Vanguard had only a limited life left, which was a principal justification in the early 1970s for the new runway. However, once approved Tridents were slowly filtered in, and had fully taken over well before the new runway opened. I think the last BA passenger Vanguard flight was in summer 1974, actually only just from BEA into the BA era by a matter of weeks (did the passenger aircraft even ever get BA titles ?). Anyway, up at Edinburgh Castle in the city centre, about 6 or 7 miles from the airport, you could quite readily hear on a summer evening a Vanguard at the airport, particularly manoeuvring on the ramp. It was the only such aircraft you could hear. Once I was out there, at the old terminal on the eastern side. A Vanguard came in and swung round, no airbridges then, and the noise inside the terminal building was quite deafening. Just what was it about them, engines or the square-bladed De Havilland props (I suspect the latter). For anyone who remembers its contemporary the Britannia (Dowty props), the noise difference was extraordinary.

[DaveReidUK]

Yes, before I moved to the smoke I would frequently lie in bed (albeit only about 3 miles from Turnhouse) listening to the late-night Vanguard taxying out for departure.

I don't think Vanguards were still being used when 13/31 was redesignated 12/30 (can't recall exactly when that happened). I jumpseated once on a Trident 3 landing on 13, which was an interesting experience (reverse thrust well before touchdown).

Ironically, my first flight ever, from Edinburgh on a Vanguard, was as a 9-year-old when I was living in Glasgow and the flight had been diverted to EDI due to crosswinds at Renfrew.

[Herod]

Though presumably with the prop blades fully feathered, so you're not going anywhere.

It's over 30 years since I last flew a turbo-prop, but as I recall, doing that is a guaranteed way to overheat the engine, badly. I believe the Tyne, like the Dart, isn't a free -turbine.

[DaveReidUK]

Yes, neither RR engine was a free-turbine. I had a short spell on Tyne overhauls, but don't recall ever seeing a Dart other than in situ.

I wasn't handling the controls, just an interested observer on the flight deck, so I don't recall the exact settings, which were the responsibility of the shift's wizened Vanguard run-up specialist. :O

But the aircraft was certainly straining at the leash and bucking around in a way that I'd never experienced in my years of LHR/EDI commuting on ID90s. And, though I wasn't aware of the Comet incident at the time, both aircraft would have been in pretty much the same place, pointing straight at the hangars.

[Herod]

As I said, 30 years since, but my recollection from F-27 days was that, on landing, the throttles were lifted, removing the Flight Fine Stop, and allowing the props to go to Ground Fine. One airline, and one airfield (no names, no pack-drill) rejected a take-off at low speed, and the captain merely drought the throttles back. The Flight Fine had engaged, and very soon the TGT began to rise, doing the engine a severe mischief. I would suspect the same on the Tyne. Of course, after this length of time, and an ageing brain, I could be spouting a load of old rubbish. :}

[BEagle]

My first ever airline flight was in a Vickers Vibrator of BEA to Gibraltar in the mid-'60s, which of course included a flight deck visit.

Around 30 years later, the 'Whispering Wareshouse' Merchantman variants were often seen at RAF Brize Norton, causing the more elderly folk around the station to go all misty-eyed at the sound of 4 x Tyne, so reminiscent of the Belslows of 53 sqn!

[DaveReidUK]

First time I've ever come across Vanguard/Merchantman and "Whispering" in the same sentence. :O

[SWBKCB]

I remember a similar problem when working at FRA with the TU134, Aeroflot would bring a loadmaster with them on the a/c and have the cargo delivered to a/c for their instruction on loading. I think the TU154 had a similar problem ?

The nose of a 154 would rise about 12-18 inches from full to empty. Made getting the height of the steps at the front 'interesting'!

[Discorde]

It would have been impossible to run the Tynes with props feathered. The feathering signal was sent from the HP cock, which simultaneously cut off the fuel supply. The props also auto-feathered when the torque meters sensed negative torque when the throttles were in the forward thrust range (as during engine failure).

The Vanguard crosswind limit was greater than the Trident 3's. On more than one occasion a Vanguard would be wheeled out to sub for a T3 when a southwesterly was howling across R13/31 at EDI.

[seer557]

Post from the Mercahntman thread

Video on youtube of last ex ABC Merchantman (under Hunting Cargo Airline colours) flown into Brooklands.
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmakSwlYLs0

[Jhieminga]

Yes, neither RR engine was a free-turbine. I had a short spell on Tyne overhauls, but don't recall ever seeing a Dart other than in situ.

I wasn't handling the controls, just an interested observer on the flight deck, so I don't recall the exact settings, which were the responsibility of the shift's wizened Vanguard run-up specialist. :O

But the aircraft was certainly straining at the leash and bucking around in a way that I'd never experienced in my years of LHR/EDI commuting on ID90s. And, though I wasn't aware of the Comet incident at the time, both aircraft would have been in pretty much the same place, pointing straight at the hangars.
The Vanguard is started in a ground idle mode and a small lever at the front of the pedestal moves the engine to the flight idle setting which is a significantly higher rpm. The noise levers are then adjusted to suit the amount of deafening you want to inflict on the bystanders.

I too have been an interested observer during a Vanguard run up, but we didn't get anywhere above flight idle. The bucking and such may be because of significantly higher power settings, a somewhat uneven loading on the airframe from running up one or more engines on one side, or a combination of wind gusting and interference from something like a hangar behind and other buildings in the vicinity. Don't discount the effect of propwash impinging on a building side or hangar doors and the turbulence you set up that way.

[megan]

Never ever saw the aircraft in the flesh but thought it the best looking airline turbo prop to grace the skies. What was it like to fly/operate?

[ATNotts]

Never ever saw the aircraft in the flesh but thought it the best looking airline turbo prop to grace the skies. What was it like to fly/operate?

In terms of looks, I would say the Britannia and CL44 both outdid the "Guardsvan"; but of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[Bergerie1]

The Bristol Britannia would have my vote too

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1199x820/bristol_britannia_g_aovb_e1b736f26cf253025106b563328a35ec97f b8781.jpg

[megan]

As has been said each to their own, don't like the nose/cockpit on the Brit, find the Vans nose and dihereral tailplane and angular fin attractive.


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1878x596/van_b695fca0c214ce8d7141b4f1452ba2878c556835.png

[DaveReidUK]

Lovely big windows, too. :O

[treadigraph]

I always thought the Vanguard was a nice looking aircraft and loved the sound of the Tynes. Sadly it has been so long since I heard Proteuses that I can't recall them.

[Bergerie1]

The Whispering Giant! That is why couldn't hear them, Go into this video at 1min 20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlVdPh0pcZs

[treadigraph]

Currently on an HST between Plymouth and St Austell - wondering whether to entertain my fellow pax with the sound of a Britannia at full chat! :)

Used to be at school between Woodley and Reading, often saw transports out of Luton and perhaps East Midlands including AFREK and Redcoat Britannias, guess that would be the last time I saw one airborne, perhaps 40 years ago. Though... went across the Channel on Hoverspeed a coue of decades ago, weren't the big SRNs Proteus powered?

[WHBM]

Used to be at school between Woodley and Reading, often saw transports out of Luton and perhaps East Midlands including AFREK and Redcoat Britannias, guess that would be the last time I saw one airborne, perhaps 40 years ago. Though... went across the Channel on Hoverspeed a coue of decades ago, weren't the big SRNs Proteus powered?
Yes, a Canadian relative said that Hovercraft was the closest thing they had experienced in a generation since a Trans-Canada Lockheed Constellation all the way from London to Vancouver, probably 20 hours overall (compared to 30 minutes in the Hovercraft), which had blasted their eardrums for several days afterwards. The Hovercraft was indeed Proteus powered, with Dowty props, just like the Brit.

But "Whispering Giant" the Hovercraft was certainly NOT.

Regarding the last one I saw airborne, I walked out on Dun Laoghaire pier in Ireland one evening in 1977, and an Aer Turas one glided most silently and elegantly past on long finals for 34 at Dublin. Since then I have to be content with the restored Monarch one on the Duxford ramp, right up to today, which comes briefly into view whenever I'm driving north on the M11 motorway.

[possel]

The Whispering Giant! That is why couldn't hear them, Go into this video at 1min 20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlVdPh0pcZs
Shame about the jet chase aircraft (visible at 1min) going overhead at the same time.

[NutLoose]

Only once, as far as I know, due to incompetent groundcrew neglecting to check fin tank contents....

The fin tank gauges on the Ten were piss poor, you could easily put a couple of K up it without it registering, we often used to “hide” extra fuel at the behest of the Flight Eng on the Dulles run.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

You'll be familiar with Stand 319, then, where the Merchantman ops were based. Most of the flights were scheduled at night. One of the grimmest was 0200 LHR-CPH-LHR. Airborne from LHR - head northeast for approx an hour towards Heligoland, turn left a few degrees - head northeast for approx another hour - land CPH. Hour turnround then back along the same route.


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/878x1279/1972_vang_prop_luqa_80a2c0a6fa84e04c7808b578c517ed98ef305a0e .jpg

In Feb 1972 G-APED and 'EF were temporarily based in Malta for circuit training for pilots converting onto the Vanguard/Merchantman. While at Luqa one of the Tynes on one of these aircraft dumped all its engine oil through a failed seal on its prop hub. I took this pic during the prop change (possibly repair rather than replacement - it looks like a prop hub lying on the trolley).

A description of Merchantman ops can be found in the book 'The Damocles Plot'.
I can very highly recommend that book and others by the same author Julien Evans

[megan]

Always wondered if the Whispering Giant got the name because of the Proteus habit of, err, stopping. ;)

[Doctor Cruces]

Frater didn't fly on it, but had a look around. It was Mandala. "Its four engines looked like antique air-cooled radials, and even the three-bladed propellers had been burnished...What was it? A converted Flying Fortress? A restyled Lanc? Or something built locally from bamboo and hammered Capstan cigarette tins? I tried to find out."

"I approached the marshal "Viscount" he snapped. "That's no Viscount". "It's a Super Viscount""

My guess? Most likely an Electra.

I only found this because I've recently read the book, and knew where to find the bits.


Don't ever recall either Electra, Vanguard or Viscount having three bladed props.

[Meikleour]

Having observed Indonesian Aviation over many years I wouldn't be surprised if it was being flown with one prop blade missing!!!!

[JW411]

We used to reckon that the Britannia was called the Whispering Giant because it had bu**er all to shout about.

[DaveReidUK]

Don't ever recall either Electra, Vanguard or Viscount having three bladed props.

I remember, on a visit to the tower at Edinburgh around 1970, standing with the controllers watching a BMA Viscount taking off with only 3 propellers ...

[Geriaviator]

The good folk of Belfast heard plenty of Tyne rumble when Shorts were conducting prolonged ground runs of the Belfast freighter. When test flight schedules lagged somewhat the ground runs were extended into Sunday mornings. This did not go down well in the Northern Ireland of the early 1960s. Various preachers invoked the Wrath of the Lord upon this infernal noisy machine which could be heard all over the city as there was little movement except to churches, shops were closed and even the children's playgrounds were chained up.

More than one preacher condemned this breaking of the Sabbath; perhaps the Lord tasked a few angels to ride upon the tail of each Belfast and create such drag that the RAF would do away with them. If this sounds farfetched, consider the major airfield being built in 1944 for USAF B-29s east of Newtownards. This too required Sunday working and the local Presbyterians prayed that such sinful concrete-puddling should cease. Shortly afterwards the project was abandoned, but one can see to this day that the partly-constructed runway has sunk into long undulations because it was laid upon the Lord's unstable bogland ...

[Rory57]

Mothballed Tynes brought to life after ten years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIaL_mDIFic

[WHBM]

Mothballed Tynes brought to life after ten years
Airspeed Ambassador used to do the same every morning after standing overnight !

LVPs for 5 minutes after one fired up.

[Lance Shippey]

Great seeing the pics of the Vanguard and the Britannia. I remember having to learn some "Technical German" as well as German, and one important term was "Unterboden besdlastungsgewicht" . (under floor bearing weight) It would have been useful to the loader of a Trans Meridian CL44 at MAN in the late 1960's. A voice saying "You'd better go over to the CL44, and see the damage" A ICL computer had been loaded with a large fork lift truck into the swing tail a/c. The cargo had completely gone through the floor, into the lower fuselage.
Of course it was a time of computers being the size of a garden shed.

Lance Shippey

[Midland 331]

Fields at Castle Don. used to conduct ground runs on Merchantmen for hours and hours. There was something about the frequency of the noise that was tiring. Even for a big prop fanboy like me, the sound lost it's charm after a couple of hours.

Air Bridge's regular Luton-Glasgow newspaper service used to rumble up Amber One overhead EMA just before midnight. There was no mistaking that sound.

[treadigraph]

I recall being in the Friends of Fighter Collection area at Duxford's Flying Legends once - two guys were running trailer mounted Griffon and Merlin nearby, both beautiful sounding engines yet with those particular short props or the RPM chosen or whatever there was an unpleasant resonance; no idea if we were in the focal point or if it was more widespread. Noticed that the A400 also produces a similar unpleasant noise sometimes when flying overhead outbound Brize, quite painful on the lugs.

[dc9-32]

Mothballed Tynes brought to life after ten years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIaL_mDIFic

and not an Eco Protestor in sight !!

[WHBM]

I recall being in the Friends of Fighter Collection area at Duxford's Flying Legends once - two guys were running trailer mounted Griffon and Merlin nearby, both beautiful sounding engines yet with those particular short props or the RPM chosen or whatever there was an unpleasant resonance; no idea if we were in the focal point or if it was more widespread. Noticed that the A400 also produces a similar unpleasant noise sometimes when flying overhead outbound Brize, quite painful on the lugs.
I was there that day (if there was only one) as well, and thought the engines being run on trailers was a fascination. Got a photo somewhere.

Big prop aircraft noise coming right through into the house from altitude has made a reappearance with the A400. Have had them go over at 30,000ft and heard them inside two closed doors. Used to live long ago close to the Wallasey VOR, and although you could hear the Vanguards at altitude on London to Belfast etc from the garden, I don't remember ever it being inside. The only other thing I pick up here is the An-12 from various operators, they seem to be a quite bit lower at about 23,000ft, which is possibly the limit of their pressurisation.

[DaveReidUK]

and not an Eco Protestor in sight !!

Lindisfarne would have been thrilled with that ...

[WHBM]

Lindisfarne would have been thrilled with that ...
Showing your (and I suppose my) age, Mr DR ...

[MAC 40612]

I have a distant memory of doing a run-up (on all 4) on a cold night-shift at LHR around 1975 following an engine change on a Merchantman (a good exercise in putting one's faith in brakes and chocks :O).

If the main deck floor had been lowered during the conversion, presumably that would have resulted in there being a step up into the flight deck. I don't recollect there being one (I'd probably have tripped up over it), but I may be mistaken about that.

Did you ever cross paths with 'Throttles Norton' in Engineering? So called as back in the day ground engineers were allowed to taxi the aircraft and he [allegedly] regularly brought the Vanguards back to the engineering base from the cargo area, without the use of a ground tug...hence his nickname

[MAC 40612]

Mothballed Tynes brought to life after ten years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIaL_mDIFic

The Germans finally withdrew their last C-160D Transall earlier this year, the French having already withdrawn all their aircraft but it's not quite the end of the Transall yet, the Turkish still have a few in service, one as a support aircraft for their display team, the Turkish stars and two ELINT converted C-160, that will be replaced shortly. Also three of the ex-German C-160D have gone onto the Australian civil register and are seemingly going to be converted as fire fighting aircraft. The first one transited through Malta 25/08/2023 on the trip down to Australia.

With regard to all the smoke on start up, I would suggest that is completely normal for any jet turbine that has been been out of service for a period as an inhibitor is used to keep the engine serviceable and when first started, that is always the effect. We had the same clouds of smoke on start up on both Boeing 747-400s and Boeing 777 after an engine change on the first ground run.

[eckhard]

Big prop aircraft noise coming right through into the house from altitude has made a reappearance with the A400.

The most distinctive prop noise that I remember was the C-133 Cargomaster with its Pratt and Whitney T34 turboprops. Once they’d passed overhead at around 20,000 ft, the deep rumble would continue for several minutes.

[chevvron]

With regard to all the smoke on start up, I would suggest that is completely normal for any jet turbine that has been been out of service for a period as an inhibitor is used to keep the engine serviceable and when first started, that is always the effect. We had the same clouds of smoke on start up on both Boeing 747-400s and Boeing 777 after an engine change on the first ground run.
V 22 Ospreys also do it on every start probably because of the angle of the engines when parked.

[Asturias56]

Worst I ever saw was a BA Tristar at LHR - covered the whole of Terminal 1 with a thick black cloud one evening on start-up

[Mr Mac]

I occasionally test building facades with the help of a Rolls Royce Griffon at Vinci testing facility in Leighton Buzzard. Great sound, it used to be at Taywood Engineering. Another test facility in Telford called UL Solutions formally Wintech has a DC6 Double Wasp for same purpose a different sound but equally pleasant. Both are very smoky when starting and shed quite a bit of oil.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[DaveReidUK]

Did you ever cross paths with 'Throttles Norton' in Engineering? So called as back in the day ground engineers were allowed to taxi the aircraft and he [allegedly] regularly brought the Vanguards back to the engineering base from the cargo area, without the use of a ground tug...hence his nickname

He sounds a real character but, alas no, I never encountered him.

[WHBM]

I occasionally test building facades with the help of a Rolls Royce Griffon at Vinci testing facility in Leighton Buzzard. Great sound, it used to be at Taywood Engineering. Another test facility in Telford called UL Solutions formally Wintech has a DC6 Double Wasp for same purpose a different sound but equally pleasant. Both are very smoky when starting and shed quite a bit of oil.

These wouldn't by chance be the two engines, in wheeled stands and with simple props, which were displayed running, side-by-side, at Flying Legends at Duxford some years ago ? They were certainly a big Rolls-Royce in-line and a big Pratt radial.

[chevvron]

Did you ever cross paths with 'Throttles Norton' in Engineering? So called as back in the day ground engineers were allowed to taxi the aircraft and he [allegedly] regularly brought the Vanguards back to the engineering base from the cargo area, without the use of a ground tug...hence his nickname
I know BA engineers were allowed to taxy aircraft at Glasgow back in the '70s; I 'talked' to several of them from the tower when they were doing engine runs in the early hours of the morning going to/from the stand to the attenuators and back; that was with Tridents.

[DHfan]

These wouldn't by chance be the two engines, in wheeled stands and with simple props, which were displayed running, side-by-side, at Flying Legends at Duxford some years ago ? They were certainly a big Rolls-Royce in-line and a big Pratt radial.

If it's the two I saw, no.
IIRC it's a chap from Cumbria(?) who's got several running aero-engines. From memory he's got a Merlin, a Griffon, a Hercules and I believe a Welland.
He used to post as MerlinPete on the FlyPast forum before the destruction.

[Mr Mac]

These wouldn't by chance be the two engines, in wheeled stands and with simple props, which were displayed running, side-by-side, at Flying Legends at Duxford some years ago ? They were certainly a big Rolls-Royce in-line and a big Pratt radial.

WHBM
I am pretty sure they have never been off the sites of the test rigs apart from the Griffon moving from Uxbridge to Leighton Buzzard. I first tested at Uxbridge with the Griffon in 1987 and it had been there a few years then already.

They are on wheeled stands and are positioned in front of the facades to be tested and there is a a gantry with spray bars in front of the engine to simulate rain fall. The rear of the facade is boxed in a depressurised to try and force a leak in the facade which you monitor from inside the test rig.

Always fun to hear them crank up especially the Griffon.

Cheers
Mr Mac