Shared Ownership

[BlueTeamHacker]

Hi all,

I am still dream building and don't yet have my PPL. I am exploring various options of aircraft ownership. What is it like to share ownership with 3, 4, or 5 other people. I suspect the dynamic changes quite a bit depending on how many you share with? Do you find that you tend to get the bookings you want, or does it usually come down to finding a gap in the shared calendar and booking what's available? Sorry for the noobish questions.

[Dan Dare]

Most groups seem to have an active membership about half the size of group. Six in a group would still leave an average aircraft unused most of the time (unless you were all only weekend flyers). One group I was in didn’t even have a booking system, we’d just let the others know if we were taking it away for more than half a day. The only downside I’ve felt with shared ownership is the inability to go long-haul touring for a week and even that could probably be set up.

p.s. most groups are unlikely to welcome you as a freshly minted PPL until you have some incident-free hours under your belt

p.p.s. it’s almost always cheaper to rent than to buy, but sometimes in life that isn’t the point

[777fly]

Based upon 14 years managing a group aircraft:

In any given year, at least 1/3 of group members will not be actively flying. With a 6 member group, availability will not be an issue, much better than when renting club aircraft. In fact, there will be such low utilisation that engine corrosion can be a problem.
A major benefit is that the group aircraft can be all yours for the day, overnight, or even longer if group rules permit. When renting a club aircraft you will be expected to fly several hours during each day of rental, which can get expensive very quickly.

Our group aircraft has a monthly subscription of £180, which covers all operating costs except fuel. Depending on fuel burn your hourly fuel cost is likely to be in the £50-£60 an hour range, at current fuel prices. Personally, I calculate that I need to fly 3 hours, or more, a month for my flying to be more economic than renting, purely in terms of flying hours. You might be willing to accept higher costs in order to have the far greater availability.

As already advised, you would find it difficult to find a group willing to accept a brand new very low hours PPL. I would suggest that you do some accident/incident free hour building for a few years before thinking about a group share. The discipline required when operating under club rental rules will stand you in good stead and the availability of instructors for recency or advice is a major benefit.

I hope this helps.

[Fl1ingfrog]

I don't really understand the reticence to join a group with low flying hours and years gained. Some groups have an insurance policy, even for basic aeroplanes, that requires a hundred hours P1 to save costs, that is true. That aside, experience will come whether in your own aeroplane or when hiring from the club. I agree that the hourly costs are not cheaper than hiring from the club. But, that isn't the point. What is most important is to fully understand what kind of flying it is that will best suit you. A classic type which offers a social life with regular type enthusiast flyout meets, perhaps pitching a tent beside your aeroplane. If your practical and will enjoy maintaining the aircraft yourself then the a LAA approved aeroplane or microlight could suit you. Being able to work on the aeroplane yourself can be fun and reduce the annual costs by 60 - 70%. Perhaps aerobatics will be your thing. There are a number of types that are practical for both basic aerobatics and touring. If touring is your thing then consider range and payload first. Rarely is speed an advantage for touring. Particularly if a fuel stop is necessary or the destination is without fuel such as many Scottish islands.

Once you've gained the PPL you will have learnt more clearly what you want to do with it. As for a group, I agree that for most people the group arrangement is ideal. In choosing a group then you must be assured of the necessary freedoms: the right to book out the aeroplane for a whole day, Tour or holiday for one to two weeks at a time at least twice a year. The group should have a comprehensive constitution to avoid disputes. Above all the members must be able to afford the upkeep. Nothing worse than your aeroplane grounded or poorly maintained because some members won't or cannot pay up when needed to keep everything working and serviceable.

[Maoraigh1]

Our insurer specified 100 hours. I've never asked what they'd charge to accept less.
I'm trying to sell Bolkow Junior shares at Inverness through the LAA Highland Strut. Newsletter.
Agree with comments. The one essential is that members live in the real world, and not an online group whose suggestions they don't check against the real situation.
31 years in one Group, 10 months in another before buying 2 out so aircraft could be maintained.

[BlueTeamHacker]

Thanks for the advice everyone. It's definitely given me some food for thought. I think I will just take a year or so after my PPL to understand how it all fits in with my lifestyle (and how my lifestyle changes after getting it!). I suspect that I will prefer the flexibility that a group will offer, but I guess we will see. I don't mind spending that little bit more for the benefit of being able to take the aeroplane away for a week with the family (my wife will need to leave most of the shoes she would like to take behind no doubt!).

[Genghis the Engineer]

I've been in quite a few syndicates (usually 2-3 at a time, 12 syndicates in total, over about 25 years. Yes, I'm a bit of an ownership addict). That's covered membership from 2 to 20, microlights and SEP, permit and CofA.

I agree, that typically around half the people in a syndicate actively engage. Actual utilisation varies a lot from group to group - the way to work this out is simple enough, ask for a look at the tech log and booking diary before buying. What happened last month, and what's scheduled next month will answer a lot of questions, as will a close look at the syndicate booking rules. The latter can vary a lot, and will basically come down to the vision when than group was originally set up.

Three important things you want to look at:-

(1) What's the overall group dynamic like? Are people friendly and supportive of each other and prepared to put some effort into looking after the aeroplane? If there is acrimony going on, or no obvious leaders in major activity like accounts and maintenance, stay well away.

(2) What are the finances like? Make sure the overall picture, including hourlies, monthlies, the bank balance, and any track record of cash calls are satisfactory to you. There's no right/wrong solution here, just a question of what you're happy about.

(3) Does the availability, and the booking rules, suit your personal flying desires. For example, I'm in a touring PA28 syndicate with heavy restrictions on bookings at weekends - but which is not flown much in the week. As I tend to use it for long trips in the week, that suits me very well. If I was looking at it for weekend trips, it wouldn't suit me very well.


Re: hours - the 100hr limit isn't unusual, but generally insurers will be happy with an increased excess that will be yours to pay if you prang it. It is usually about excess, not total premiums. I've seen groups that are very unhappy about low hour pilots joining, and others that are very happy - it all depends upon the group.

G

[anxiao]

From my experience of being in two (helicopter) groups I would do it again in aviation. The legal set up of the group is important, and one group with a turbine helicopter got it right for the six members as it was a company structure, and we were all directors. Directors of companies have responsibilities and so it keeps the owners honest. We had a company secretary and an accountant and it all worked very well.

There are several structures available in the UK and from my perspective the less formal they are the more likely it is possible that one guy could go rogue and not pay bills etc. If there is a legal structure then the wishes of the majority shareholders will carry.

We never had difficulties with availabilities as shown in the above replies- apart from weekends in summer but it was never a big problem. And when the big bills come in, as they may, it is soooo nice to share them with six or eight other people...

[Maoraigh1]

It depends on the value of the aircraft. New syndicate, 4 members, to buy at £15,500 and upgrade. I bought 2 out after fitting 8.33, Mode S, and cartridge oil filter as there was disagreement on basic maintenance.
Lawyers would have cost more, and not enhanced value.

[Shoestring Flyer]

The best group is a group of one!!...No hassle, no arguments/disagreements and the aeroplane is always available to fly anytime and in the safe condition you want it to be in!

[Planemike]

Thread drift....... Do shared ownership groups ever include non pilots..??? Just curious....

[Genghis the Engineer]

I've known a few lapsed pilots who stay in a syndicate and fly as a passenger with their friends who are members, and I've known a few student pilots learning on the aeroplane.

I've never known anybody who neither has ever been, nor has any intention to be, a qualified pilot to be a syndicate member. But, it wouldn't be illegal.

G