A Failure of Values

[ORAC]

Sir Humphrey on the House of Commons report on the treatment of women in the Armed Forces. And no, despite the start, it does not just apply to the Army, it also applies to the RN and RAF.

The article, and paper, should be read in full, and with shame.

https://tinyurl.com/3bus3khs
.A Failure of Values, Standards and Leadership at All Levels
…
The British Army has six core values, which set out how a British soldier should act and conduct themselves. These values include:

· COURAGE - Doing and saying the right thing not the easy thing

· DISCIPLINE - Doing things properly and setting the right example

· RESPECT FOR OTHERS- Treat others as you expect to be treated

· INTEGRITY - Being honest with yourself and your teammates

· LOYALTY - Support the army and your teammates

SELFLESS COMMITMENT - Mates and mission first, me second

These are laudable values, and mirrored in the other two services in similar documents. They are rightly seen as a good ‘handrail’ to which all soldiers and professional military personnel should aspire to conduct themselves at all times.Given this, when you read a report that talks of serving female personnel describing incidents like:

“Repeated sexual advances and unwanted attention from seniors”

“Bullying for refusing sexual advances”

“Filming and sharing images, including while in the showers”

“ Ejaculation into their pocket”

“Messes and mess accommodation being viewed as places of danger, with one servicewoman saying that they could be more dangerous for servicewomen than being deployed on overseas operations”

Bullying or downgraded performance assessment if servicewomen made attempts to report unacceptable behaviours

Then you realise that there is a very serious mismatch between aspiration and lived reality.

The publication of the House of Commons Defence Sub Committee (https://committees.parliament.uk/publications/6959/documents/72771/default/) report into the experience of women in the armed forces is both utterly vital, and absolutely appalling. It is hard to find words to describe the anger the author felt reading some of the accounts of women in the armed forces, and in particular the appalling experiences they have experienced.

What makes this report so significant is that permission was given, exceptionally, for women serving in the military to give evidence to the Committee. Roughly 10% of all serving female personnel responded to this report, which gives it significant credibility.

This report should be mandatory reading, in full, for everyone in the chain of command, in the vain hope that it will be seen, read, acted on and positive changes made for the better.

Sadly, one has to worry that it will instead be parked in a cul-de-sac marked “Irritating millennial wokeness” and given a stiff ignoring by a generation of people who want to go back to dreaming of manly wars fought by manly men (possibly even from a armoured vehicle that is less than 30 years old)……

[NutLoose]

It just amazes me, I don’t know if it’s me or has the world moved on and got worse for it, my first tour was at a nearly all male station with one WRAF married to a guy on the Sqn and we all got on like a house on fire.

Posted to RAFG there were WRAF who would use the NAAFI who we would socialise with and again we all got on like a house on fire, yes we were male they were female, but it was more than that, they were mates if that makes sense, as an example Christmas morning etc we were invited around the WRAF block for Champagne etc, we were friends and I will forever remember quaffing Champagne as the girls opened their presents from under the tree. No hassle no grief.
One friend I gave a giant soap on a rope penis carved from those gawd awful bars of carbolic soap we used to have as a 21st present, it was taken as intended as a bit of fun which she loved and it was worn all night around her neck, I then did several requests.
What I am trying to get across was there was no animosity, no worry, and we all got along as both professionals and friends, what on earth has changed?

[idle bystander]

One friend I gave a giant soap on a rope penis carved from those gawd awful bars of carbolic soap we used to have as a 21st present, it was taken as intended as a bit of fun which she loved and it was worn all night around her neck, I then did several requests.
What I am trying to get across was there was no animosity, no worry, and we all got along as both professionals and friends, what on earth has changed?
What has changed is that women have realised that they don't have to pretend they are entertained by the sort of boorish behaviour epitomised by the carved penis incident you describe, and the rest of the world has woken (deliberate play on the word) up to that fact.

[Cornish Jack]

I would suggest that 'what has changed', is that (like the UK) women have lost their 'place' in the world and are trying to establish a new 'equality'.
Unfortunately, their version of equality is just as skewed as was the male dominance which it seeks to replace. Men-only places - BAD; Women-'safe-space' GOOD. Man = equals predator, rapist, molester. Woman = soft, gentle, reassuring etc. Do schoolboys ever get a health warning about the perils of PMT !! ?
Hysteria was once regarded as the unique province of the female; ever more vocal outbursts in 'the media' reflect selective opinion which is verging on such a condition !:ugh:

[ORAC]

:rolleyes:..........

[NutLoose]

What has changed is that women have realised that they don't have to pretend they are entertained by the sort of boorish behaviour epitomised by the carved penis incident you describe, and the rest of the world has woken (deliberate play on the word) up to that fact.

You missed what I what I saying, far from it, she was genuinely pleased with it, and I was asked by several of her friends for one too, which I made, indeed the original owner asked for another to pass on to her friend, so I would say it was far from “boorish.” It was all a bit of light hearted fun amongst genuine friends, as were some of the gifts the other way around.

Maybe that is half of the problem, people jump down each others throats, and read into things the wrong end of the stick with out actually being there and knowing the true story. Maybe a lot of it is press driven.

[downsizer]

You missed what I what I saying, far from it, she was genuinely pleased with it, and I was asked by several of her friends for one too, which I made, indeed the original owner asked for another to pass on to her friend, so I would say it was far from “boorish.” It was all a bit of light hearted fun amongst genuine friends, as were some of the gifts the other way around.

Maybe that is half of the problem, people jump down each others throats, and read into things the wrong end of the stick with out actually being there and knowing the true story. Maybe a lot of it is press driven.

The woman in your sh1t dit might not have minded, but if you bother to read the report you'll see there are plenty who aren't happy.

Take some time and read the report.

[charliegolf]

It's amazing that we have to talk about this in this day and age. The blame for this might rightly fall at the institutional and senior officer level, but this is a failure of leadership at corporal and sgt level. Why? The vast majority of cases are not in the Brigadier's office, with a bit of 'racy chat and bum-slapping' bs. It's at the training, barracks-room and Naafi* level. It's about shutting it down hard- just as it is when male recruits are bullied or defiled, 'to build character'. If those two ranks (with the others obvs) can't effect change in this, I'd rather not have them order me about in a war, thanks. Pond life like them probably don't respect their Mum or Sis either.

CG

*Do they still exist?

[vascodegama]

Para 20 says that the fitness tests are "gender free" is that really the case? My memory might be going with age, but I remember that
for example AS a 50 + male I had to achieve more than a female in her 20's. Not that either was much of a test, the biggest challenge was remembering to take your 1250 /MOD 90.

[Toadstool]

Para 20 says that the fitness tests are "gender free" is that really the case? My memory might be going with age, but I remember that
for example AS a 50 + male I had to achieve more than a female in her 20's. Not that either was much of a test, the biggest challenge was remembering to take your 1250 /MOD 90.

Nope. Not gender free yet. I’ve just passed mine at light blue but green for my age is 7:1.

[Easy Street]

Para 20 says that the fitness tests are "gender free" is that really the case?

Interesting wording... as there are still male and female test standards, a claim of the test being "gender free" would imply that the distinction between the two is officially considered to be "sex" based. Such hair-splitting is presumably required to address the issue of test standards for transgender people. Defining the test as "sex" based would make chromosomal makeup the relevant discriminator; that would require transgender people to disclose their status to PTIs and would make the test "gender free". I don't know if this is the policy (?) but it would explain the wording.

[vascodegama]

So as you say ES, interesting wording. If it is ,as you suggest, then the statement has little to do with the main thrust of the argument. If it isn't then it is just a mistake.

[SASless]

This "diversity" notion sure seems to create a lot of "division" when is supposed to end it.

[Toadstool]

This "diversity" notion sure seems to create a lot of "division" when is supposed to end it.

Actually, it says we still have far to go. I was shocked about how much SAPR training I had to do in the US when flying with the USAF. The number of sexual assaults were staggering and people had to be taught that it wasn’t ok. In the military!
It seems, based on this shocking report, that we also have much to do in the British Forces.
Snarky statements do nothing.

[SASless]

Toad....what it tells us is there is a leadership problem in both our militaries.

Leadership begins at the second lowest rank and rises right up to the very tip top.

In US Army terms....an Infantry Fire Team Leader....who is a Private First Class usually is the that bottom rung on the leadership ladder.....as the FTL he is responsible for himself and four others generally.

Then you move to the Squad, Platoon, Company, Battalion, Regiment/Brigade, Division level and higher levels of command....and everyone in those chains of command have a direct responsibility and obligation to ensure none of this bad stuff happens.

That is the problem....they fail far too often.

They fail on the simple stuff way too often....and that leads. to major failures.

Simple example....a Female Soldier is sexually. harassed by a member of her Fire Team....and the FTL sees it happen.....right there on the spot the miscreant should have his Tea Leaves read to him....and if need be the Squad Leader should be informed of the event and corrective action taken.

At that level a decision should be made as to whether additional action or training be done for the involved soldier or unit.

People in Leadership positions should be held accountable at every level for adhering to policies, regulations, and Standards.....and failures should garner adverse action for that failure.

I see it as a Discipline problem....that is caused by poor leadership.

[charliegolf]

Leadership begins at the second lowest rank

My point exactly SAS. Post no 8.

CG

[Slow Biker]

Back when I was serving I turned up for work and found a young airwoman in my office, when I queried her presence she burst into tears. She was fairly newly married but evidently her husband loved their dog more then her. She was clearly desperately upset but what was I supposed to do about it? She was younger than my daughters and my first instinct was to comfort her with an arm around her shoulders - as I would do with my girls, but there we were, a sobbing airwoman and a wo, just can't, must not even, do it. Instead I sat her down and we had a heart to heart and hopefully straightened out a few perceived issues. I did restrain myself in asking if she hadn't wondered why her husband had previously been married and divorced twice under the age of 28.
I have often thought about that incident. Had I given in to my instinct as a father it could have become difficult - today it would be called abuse or sexual harassment but I am sure it would have helped.

[Big Pistons Forever]

It is the 10% problem. 10% of your people give you 90% of the problems. Everyone knows who they are. Deal with them and the other 90% take care of themselves. Don’t deal with them and the whole organization starts to crumble.

But “dealing with them” means standing up for what is right, making waves, and forcing your seniors to take action. Much easier to to just kick the can down the road and let someone else deal with it. The senior leaders of most of today’s Military are the product of a culture that incentivizes inaction and coverups.

And so here we are…..

[SASless]

My point exactly SAS. Post no 8.

CG


Actually.....I should amend my answer....the authority begins at the second lowest rank....but the responsibility begins at the lowest rank.

You see misconduct you are to take immediate action....that is incumbent upon the lowest ranking of us clear up the big boss person. (See....I am getting my arms around this pronoun sea change!).

[Jimlad1]

If you read the report in full (and I highly advise that you do), then you'll see this isn't about 'delicate flowers' or people unable to take it, its about a systematic series of abuses that comprise serious criminal offences. Read the experiences female service personnel have had, and which they've testified to - like sexual assault, like rape, like living in a climate where they are seen as the troublemaker and are career fouled if they complain that colleagues are wanking into their clothes or stealing their underwear, or trying to force them to have sex with them and you'll see its not all 'PC gone mad'.

Perhaps the people here have daughters or granddaughters - are you saying that you want your children and grandchildren to experience this if they join up - after all, its just 'banter' isn't it - so when your grandaughter gets sexually assaulted you'll be fine with the fact that the conviction rate in the service court community is a fraction of the Civvy courts? After all, they're just a bunch of snowflakes.

Some of the posters here are admirably demonstrating why this problem is so very real.

[Training Risky]

If you read the report in full (and I highly advise that you do), then you'll see this isn't about 'delicate flowers' or people unable to take it, its about a systematic series of abuses that comprise serious criminal offences. Read the experiences female service personnel have had, and which they've testified to - like sexual assault, like rape, like living in a climate where they are seen as the troublemaker and are career fouled if they complain that colleagues are wanking into their clothes or stealing their underwear, or trying to force them to have sex with them and you'll see its not all 'PC gone mad'.

Perhaps the people here have daughters or granddaughters - are you saying that you want your children and grandchildren to experience this if they join up - after all, its just 'banter' isn't it - so when your grandaughter gets sexually assaulted you'll be fine with the fact that the conviction rate in the service court community is a fraction of the Civvy courts? After all, they're just a bunch of snowflakes.

Some of the posters here are admirably demonstrating why this problem is so very real.
Rubbish. 10% of women responded? How on earth is that a representative sample.

There's a good chance that a lot of this so called evidence are made-up half-remembered grievances from admin cases who didn't like being made to get up early and do their job.

During my 16 years, behaviour and deportment was excellent at every stn I served at. This is just pathetic virtue-signalling from a meaningless Committee.

[Cornish Jack]

Some of the posters here are admirably demonstrating why this problem is so very real.
...and (in my opinion) mistakenly concentrating on the problems for females. This is to do with power, not sexual misbehaviour. The problems at Deepcut and other recruit training establishments are not solely directed at women - indeed, they are, probably, not in the majority. Mis-use of power, at whatever level of command structure has always been a feature of 'group culture' -school, University, Service or civilian, makes no odds. The 'nature of power' makes it possible (and inevitable) and the 'nature of power' makes remediation extremely difficult.
For doubters, note Ms Patel. ... and, surprisingly, that is not intended politically.

[langleybaston]

I have often thought about that incident. Had I given in to my instinct as a father it could have become difficult - today it would be called abuse or sexual harassment but I am sure it would have helped.[/QUOTE]

I fear we live in a nastier world than hitherto.
As an example, I fathered four children, and have seven grandchildren, and two ggchildren. I happen to like children after they reach about two years old and are potty trained and communicative.
And yet, as I walk past any school playground, I dare not admire their antics, laugh at their tumbles, listen to their squeaky voices. Like most men these days, I hasten by, lest I be perceived as a dirty old man.
That is a great sadness of modern times.

[charliegolf]

And yet, as I walk past any school playground, I dare not admire their antics, laugh at their tumbles, listen to their squeaky voices. Like most men these days, I hasten by, lest I be perceived as a dirty old man.
That is a great sadness of modern times.

In my schoolie days, there was an elderly man named Viv Rich (RIP) living directly opposite the school. He was a proper old school gent. I recall him writing to the local rag's letters page along the lines of:

"How wonderful it is to look over the fence and see the enjoyment in the children as they go about their learning and play; and to marvel at the endlessly varied activities their teachers provide."

We all thought it was a wonderful compliment! But even then I was saddened to think of how some would read such a letter. Still am.

CG

[Cornish Jack]

... and still, the concentration on the effects, not the cause.
The cause being power, the problem is self-perpetuating - the powerful will always protect themselves and/or their colleagues as a natural function of self protection. Why does the Buffoon back Patel, Jenrick, and Cummings and Hancock until forced to change ? Power has a natural corrupting effect. It takes particularly self-reliant, self-confident (in the best sense) characters to accept the responsibilities of positions of power and discharge them for the benefit of those placed in their care and oversight. I have been fortunate enough to serve with a few ... but many more of the less accomplished.

[Mr N Nimrod]

It just amazes me, I don’t know if it’s me or has the world moved on and got worse for it, my first tour was at a nearly all male station with one WRAF married to a guy on the Sqn and we all got on like a house on fire.

Posted to RAFG there were WRAF who would use the NAAFI who we would socialise with and again we all got on like a house on fire, yes we were male they were female, but it was more than that, they were mates if that makes sense, as an example Christmas morning etc we were invited around the WRAF block for Champagne etc, we were friends and I will forever remember quaffing Champagne as the girls opened their presents from under the tree. No hassle no grief.
One friend I gave a giant soap on a rope penis carved from those gawd awful bars of carbolic soap we used to have as a 21st present, it was taken as intended as a bit of fun which she loved and it was worn all night around her neck, I then did several requests.
What I am trying to get across was there was no animosity, no worry, and we all got along as both professionals and friends, what on earth has changed?
Would love to know how your female ‘friends’ would view this as they reminisce about those days

[Cat Techie]

The Army? Majority are Army? Navy and Air Force are not innocent either. How many people on here have daughters? A good question. I have two and they are have been brought up as humans. They are modern people. They didn't join the military as they saw the rubbish as kids and worked above it. A shame as they would be top leaders. They are in the NHS. I am proud of that.

[langleybaston]

The Army? Majority are Army? Navy and Air Force are not innocent either. How many people on here have daughters? A good question. I have two and they are have been brought up as humans. They are modern people. They didn't join the military as they saw the rubbish as kids and worked above it. A shame as they would be top leaders. They are in the NHS. I am proud of that.

Are you glad you served, or sorry?
Is it and was it a heap of sh1t, and you made a mistake joining?.


Or did and does the Royal Air Force do its excellent best despite difficult times, poor politicians, and internal whingers?

[dctyke]

The Army? Majority are Army? Navy and Air Force are not innocent either. How many people on here have daughters? A good question. I have two and they are have been brought up as humans. They are modern people. They didn't join the military as they saw the rubbish as kids and worked above it. A shame as they would be top leaders. They are in the NHS. I am proud of that.


Are they “top leaders” in the NHS?

[NutLoose]

Good post Cat, it saddens me that we all come into this world free from sexism, racism, religion, superiority / inferiority complexes. They are all sadly taught to them by their piers and elders.

[Herod]

They are all sadly taught to them by their piers and elders.
On their visits to the seaside I presume?

[langleybaston]

Good post Cat, it saddens me that we all come into this world free from sexism, racism, religion, superiority / inferiority complexes. They are all sadly taught to them by their piers and elders.

Surely Lightning and Harrier pilots must have realised very early on that they were brilliant?

[IP_to_Tgt]

...And wokka pilots!

[Ninthace]

I always found wokka pilots had a good vibe……:ok:

[Ascend Charlie]

Chopper pilots get it up a lot more often than airline pilots.

[Tinribs]

I recall being at an RAF g base, guto I think when a female joined us in the bar wearing a skirt made from many squadron ties .
When I asked how she got so many blokes to part with essential item of kit she laughed and said I'm saving up for a jacket

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/andynetherwood/status/1444190124707827712?s=21

[ORAC]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tenfold-rise-in-rapes-and-sexual-assaults-on-girls-in-military-pkvck6nbg

Tenfold rise in rapes and sexual assaults on girls in military

Complaints of rape and sexual assault made by girls under 18 in the military have risen tenfold since 2015, Ministry of Defence figures reveal.

Freedom of information requests show that girls under 18 in the armed forces have made 41 complaints of rape and sexual assault to the military police since 2015. With an average of 215 girls under 18 serving between 2015 and 2020, it is said to be equivalent to one report for every 40 girls. This makes girls in the armed forces more than twice as likely as their civilian counterparts to report a rape or sexual assault to police.

The numbers have emerged as the Armed Forces Bill progresses through the Lords. The Lyons Review, commissioned in advance of the bill, recommended that serious crimes including rape are removed from the military’s internal systems and handed to the civilian police, but the bill does not seek this.

Ben Wallace, the defence secretary, lifted a gagging order this year to allow servicewomen to give evidence to a defence committee inquiry into women in the armed forces. One in ten serving women made a submission, and 64 per cent of veterans and 58 per cent of serving women said that they had experienced bullying, harassment and discrimination. Six in ten did not report what happened and a third of those who did said that the experience was “extremely poor”.

Martin Docherty-Hughes, a member of the committee, said that the “sickening” new numbers showed that the government needed to “act hard and act fast to root out this horror”.

Charlotte Cooper, from the Child Rights International Network, who made the FOI requests, said: “Any rape or sexual assault of a child in an institution tasked with their care is unacceptable but one report for every 40 girls is abhorrent. This would never be considered acceptable in a civilian school or workplace.”

In the past year more than 3,000 teenagers under 18 enlisted, mainly to the army, where they make up a quarter of the intake. The numbers of enlisted girls aged 16 and 17 grew from 190 in 2015 to 290 this year. So far in 2021 there have been ten reports of rape and sexual assault, or one for every 29 girls…….

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/andynetherwood/status/1454736568355282946?s=21

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/cmjhq/status/1463417641759092736?s=21

[Fonsini]

I have no time for men who abuse women in any way, but it is certainly a new world when this is a thing:


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x517/8bd54674_d88a_46cf_99ad_c9613cd098a9_ab1d9d69c844694cd6d2de0 2ecc53b7064fb79bd.jpeg

[ORAC]

There’s always a “but” isn’t there….

[langleybaston]

This is a spoof? April 1st? No?

I know what stareing means, and starring, but what is this staring? An Americanism?

If staring means what I suppose it means, how can I do it with a sexual nature? I do remember hot pants and enjoyed stareing at the backside view.

The bottom {!} line is that I am not to make eye contact with anyone, be it female , male or indeed any of the myriad self-identifications.

This confirms my suspicion: the lunatics are fully in charge, and I and a few circles of friends and acquaintances are the last sane survivors of the human race.

beam me up/ stop the world I want to get off.

[skridlov]

In the brilliant, hilarious, (IMHO) series "Succession", which depicts the disfunctional family empire of a right wing global media tycoon (think Murdoch) there is a brief shot, during the lead-in, of the parent news station "ATN" showing a newscaster over a banner headline which reads:
"I smiled at her by the photo copier and now I'm facing chemical castration"

[ORAC]

Throwing up farcical headlines doesn’t excuse the problem - but probably explains why investigation and sentencing is being taken out of the hands of the military….

https://twitter.com/pinstripedline/status/1463823089695866881?s=21

[West Coast]

I have no time for men who abuse women in any way, but it is certainly a new world when this is a thing:


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x517/8bd54674_d88a_46cf_99ad_c9613cd098a9_ab1d9d69c844694cd6d2de0 2ecc53b7064fb79bd.jpeg

Agree, that seems a little over the top. Actually, a lot over the top.

[beardy]

I know what stareing means, and starring, but what is this staring? An Americanism?


​​​​​​? Stareing? Never heard of it, never seen it written, until now.

I was taught that it is rude to stare and find being stared at offensive and intimidating. Old school I suppose, but am glad that those not as well brought up are being educated how to comport themselves in public.

[langleybaston]

Probably a relic of my long ago deep Sussex grammar school ........ I shall fall in line and write staring 100 times.

I promise that I will never say "different to" as opposed to "different from".

No fule like an old fule.

staring staring staring ​​​​​​​staring staring staring ​​​​​​​staring staring staring ​​​​​​​staring staring staring ........................

[ORAC]

https://youtu.be/Z9mUOKI5Y9Y

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/commonsdefence/status/1465724349093191680?s=21

[Stratnumberone]

https://twitter.com/commonsdefence/status/1465724349093191680?s=21

excellent: always nice to see the defence committee respond quickly and have its finger ‘on the pulse’ in terms of what’s going on in the modern military. Tornado, eh?

[ORAC]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59499247

Ministry of Defence aims to double women recruits in military by 2030

The number of women recruits in the Armed Forces would be doubled and the male-dominated culture tackled, under plans from the Ministry of Defence.

The reforms are a response to a report from MPs on women in the military which included accounts of assault and rape. But the MoD did not accept a key recommendation in the report to remove cases of rape and sexual assault from military courts.

More than 4,000 women - veterans and those still serving - gave evidence. The Commons Defence Sub-Committee on Women in the Armed Forces published its landmark report earlier this year. (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57956698)

Conviction rates for rape in military courts are up to six times lower than civilian courts, the sub-committee said.

Under the reforms announced, the number of women recruits in the military would increase to 30% by 2030.

Defence Secretary Ben Wallace said almost 90% of the women who engaged with the MPs' inquiry "said they would recommend a career in the armed forces". But he conceded further change was needed, adding military leaders had "listened carefully and are implementing bold changes in response".

"Having tested the recommendations with our own service women's networks, we are embracing almost all of them - and in many cases actually taking them further," Mr Wallace added…….

[langleybaston]

Here follows a world-weary, very non-woke thought, driven by Occam's Razor:

If we didn't have any women in the armed services the cases of rape would probably decrease [not cease ..............]

[London Eye]

Here follows a world-weary, very non-woke thought, driven by Occam's Razor:

If we didn't have any women in the armed services the cases of rape would probably decrease [not cease ..............]
And if we didn't have any alcohol in shops and pubs then drink driving would probably decrease too...

[Easy Street]

Langleybaston - I'm neither snowflake nor woke-ist, but find your thought to be an exceptionally objectionable one that would have been better kept to yourself. (1602hrs GMT, 2 Dec - I'll refrain from quoting in case you decide to delete, although I see that London Eye has already quoted you).

[downsizer]

Here follows a world-weary, very non-woke thought, driven by Occam's Razor:

If we didn't have any women in the armed services the cases of rape would probably decrease [not cease ..............]

Wow. It's the victims fault they were raped because they are in the armed forces. Unreal.

You know males get raped by other males as well right?

[ExAscoteer2]

Here follows a world-weary, very non-woke thought, driven by Occam's Razor:

If we didn't have any women in the armed services the cases of rape would probably decrease [not cease ..............]
Dash Dot Dot Dash!

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Wow. It's the victims fault they were raped because they are in the armed forces. Unreal.

You know males get raped by other males as well right?

Thats not what he said, Downsizer. Read his message again, slowly, and you’ll understand it.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59499247

Ministry of Defence aims to double women recruits in military by 2030

The number of women recruits in the Armed Forces would be doubled and the male-dominated culture tackled, under plans from the Ministry of Defence.

The reforms are a response to a report from MPs on women in the military which included accounts of assault and rape. But the MoD did not accept a key recommendation in the report to remove cases of rape and sexual assault from military courts.

More than 4,000 women - veterans and those still serving - gave evidence. The Commons Defence Sub-Committee on Women in the Armed Forces published its landmark report earlier this year. (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57956698)

Conviction rates for rape in military courts are up to six times lower than civilian courts, the sub-committee said.

Under the reforms announced, the number of women recruits in the military would increase to 30% by 2030.

Defence Secretary Ben Wallace said almost 90% of the women who engaged with the MPs' inquiry "said they would recommend a career in the armed forces". But he conceded further change was needed, adding military leaders had "listened carefully and are implementing bold changes in response".

"Having tested the recommendations with our own service women's networks, we are embracing almost all of them - and in many cases actually taking them further," Mr Wallace added…….

The CAS has said that the RAF is aiming for 40% female recruitment and that we (the RAF) would drag Defence along with it.

[Friedlander]

Would love to know how your female ‘friends’ would view this as they reminisce about those days
There are plenty of historical sites for stations where such reminiscences take place. Why don't you join some and ask the former members of the WRAF what they think?

[BATCO]

Dash Dot Dot Dash!

Di di dah dah di di
I think you meant Dash Dot Dot Dot Dash

Batco

[langleybaston]

Langleybaston - I'm neither snowflake nor woke-ist, but find your thought to be an exceptionally objectionable one that would have been better kept to yourself. (1602hrs GMT, 2 Dec - I'll refrain from quoting in case you decide to delete, although I see that London Eye has already quoted you)..

I suggest that you take a deep breath, read the words slowly, think about it, and accept that [casting prejudice aside] what I wrote cannot be other than true.

If you can spare the time to read on, I am not against the fair sex [or any LGBT [alphabet follows] serving, indeed I have a granddaughter serving.

If you believe my statement is incorrect, instead of levelling abuse, you could always seek to demonstrate that I am wrong. Its called civilised debate.

[downsizer]

.

I suggest that you take a deep breath, read the words slowly, think about it, and accept that [casting prejudice aside] what I wrote cannot be other than true.

If you can spare the time to read on, I am not against the fair sex [or any LGBT [alphabet follows] serving, indeed I have a granddaughter serving.

If you believe my statement is incorrect, instead of levelling abuse, you could always seek to demonstrate that I am wrong. Its called civilised debate.

If your grandaugter gets raped (and I hope she doesn't) I do hope you say to her it wouldn't have happened if she wasn't serving. I wonder how helpful she will find that?

[downsizer]

Thats not what he said, Downsizer. Read his message again, slowly, and you’ll understand it.

I do understand it mate, it's classic victim blaming.

Shouldn't have gone out dressed like that.....shouldn't have been serving...etc, etc...

[Foghorn Leghorn]

I do understand it mate, it's classic victim blaming.

Shouldn't have gone out dressed like that.....shouldn't have been serving...etc, etc...

No, it isn’t victim blaming. Go and read it again in the sense it was meant.

[London Eye]

No, it isn’t victim blaming. Go and read it again in the sense it was meant.
The problem is that I can't quite fathom how it was meant...

[downsizer]

No, it isn’t victim blaming. Go and read it again in the sense it was meant.

How was it meant then?

Because it seems pretty clear his idea to solve this problem is remove women rather than you know, simply not rape people.

Either way it's a crass statement from a crass poster.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

The problem is that I can't quite fathom how it was meant...

He was saying simple facts (tongue in cheek), which are correct. People have taken it one stage further and incorrectly made the assumption that he means something else by it.

[Easy Street]

I suggest that you take a deep breath, read the words slowly, think about it, and accept that [casting prejudice aside] what I wrote cannot be other than true.

It is true that if there were no women in the military, no servicewomen would be raped, and there might still be some cases of male rape. However it's such a trivial point that I fear you are rather overestimating the depth of your insight, and are being rather insulting in implying that anyone might need to take a deep breath to understand it. It's the implicit thought which is so objectionable, and if you don't appreciate that then you are nowhere near as wise as you would appear to consider yourself.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

How was it meant then?

Because it seems pretty clear his idea to solve this problem is remove women rather than you know, simply not rape people.

Either way it's a crass statement from a crass poster.

Once again, no, that’s not what he said. He didn’t say the answer is to remove women. You’ve jumped to that false conclusion through a poor comprehension of the facts he stated.

[212man]

Without wishing to get caught in the crossfire from those stepping off the indignation bus, I think what LB is saying is that on the premise that male-on-male rapes ocurr in the services (which they do) having no females (in the services) would not result in 'no rapes', simply fewer. I initially thought this was a response to an earlier post, but now that I see it isn't, I tend to agree it was a rather crass and clumsy comment to make. (Inner voice vs outer voice!)

[beardy]

If we didn't have any women in the armed services the cases of rape would probably decrease [not cease ..............]

That's probably not true.

Evidently since there would be no servicewomen, no servicewomen would be raped, that is the only conclusion. Since no differentiation is made between rapes in the military and total number of rapes in society (including the military) and since the supposition that the 'probability' of the total number of rapes decreasing, the inference is that servicewomen whilst serving are more likely to be raped than if they were not serving, which could be interpreted as a form of victim blaming, but I think it is just sloppy logic badly phrased.

[downsizer]

It is true that if there were no women in the military, no servicewomen would be raped, and there might still be some cases of male rape. However it's such a trivial point that I fear you are rather overestimating the depth of your insight, and are being rather insulting in implying that anyone might need to take a deep breath to understand it. It's the implicit thought which is so objectionable, and if you don't appreciate that then you are nowhere near as wise as you would appear to consider yourself.

Sums it up nicely.

[langleybaston]

Sums it up nicely.

"Implicit thought"

Orwell's 1984 may just have arrived.

[Easy Street]

"Implicit thought"

Orwell's 1984 may just have arrived.

If I was to say that rape cases in the general population would reduce if certain restrictions were placed upon womens' freedom, for instance being confined to the home or being escorted everywhere by a male relative, what point would a reasonable person assume I was making? Would you think that was a reasonable point for someone to make in polite conversation, or something that was best left unsaid unless immediately qualified with a statement of disagreement with the idea, in which case why say it at all?

If there was nothing more to your post than the completely banal observation that "no servicewomen would be raped if there were no women in military service", then I have to wonder what on earth you thought you were contributing to the thread. I might as well post "2 + 2 = 4" for all the value it brings to the discussion. However, your reference to Occam's Razor suggests that you weren't merely making an observation, as the Razor is a philosophical concept applicable to arguments and explanations. Not to observations or facts. I suspect you no more understand Occam's Razor than you understand the term 'implicit' or the concept of thoughtcrime, which doesn't apply to a thought expressed either explicitly or implicitly. All this reinforces my assessment that you are not as clever as you think.

[beardy]

All this reinforces my assessment that you are not as clever as you think.


Harsh!



But fair



And applicable to most of us 😉

[Easy Street]

And applicable to most of us 😉

Indeed so, which is why I take care when expressing my thoughts!

[Foghorn Leghorn]

That's probably not true.

Evidently since there would be no servicewomen, no servicewomen would be raped, that is the only conclusion. Since no differentiation is made between rapes in the military and total number of rapes in society (including the military) and since the supposition that the 'probability' of the total number of rapes decreasing, the inference is that servicewomen whilst serving are more likely to be raped than if they were not serving, which could be interpreted as a form of victim blaming, but I think it is just sloppy logic badly phrased.

Sorry, Easy Street old boy, your supposition is wrong on this. Bit of an awful discussion, but someone being raped outside the military is immaterial to the view that he put forward. He merely said that rapes within the military would reduce - which they would. There’s no victim blaming in his statement, you’ve inferred that.

Anyway, we have probably reached the end of this topic. Next!

[beardy]

Sorry, Easy Street old boy, your supposition is wrong on this. Bit of an awful discussion, but someone being raped outside the military is immaterial to the view that he put forward. He merely said that rapes within the military would reduce - which they would. There’s no victim blaming in his statement, you’ve inferred that.

Anyway, we have probably reached the end of this topic. Next!
​​​​​​I took your advice and read what was written, he didn't say "rape within in the military" perhaps he should have, if that is what he meant, but he didn't.
Is it not presumptuous and patronising to assume that easy street is both old and male?

[Easy Street]

There are some confused people with some strange ideas about logical argument here. Totally missing someone's point, and then misattributing someome else's words in an attempt to discredit them? Next, indeed.

[langleybaston]

I am happy to move on, but have one itch to scratch.

What is an "implicit thought"?

[Easy Street]

I am happy to move on, but have one itch to scratch.

What is an "implicit thought"?

It's not jargon; as I said I'm not a woke-ist and have no time for the tortured language so common in these matters. I was simply using the word 'implicit' in its common dictionary-defined form: "implied, though not plainly expressed". Similarly "implicit criticism", "implicit support", "implicit endorsement", "implicit task", etc etc.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

​​​​​​I took your advice and read what was written, he didn't say "rape within in the military" perhaps he should have, if that is what he meant, but he didn't.
Is it not presumptuous and patronising to assume that easy street is both old and male?

It’s not a presumption, I know Easy Street is both old (relatively) and male.

[langleybaston]

It's not jargon; as I said I'm not a woke-ist and have no time for the tortured language so common in these matters. I was simply using the word 'implicit' in its common dictionary-defined form: "implied, though not plainly expressed". Similarly "implicit criticism", "implicit support", "implicit endorsement", "implicit task", etc etc.

That doesn't work. Criticism, support, endorsement, task are all in the public domain and are observable, discernible.
If one attempts to attribute implicit thought to someone, you are if fact saying "I know what he thinks subconsciously".

That is how the thought police work.

[Ninthace]

That doesn't work. Criticism, support, endorsement, task are all in the public domain and are observable, discernible.
If one attempts to attribute implicit thought to someone, you are if fact saying "I know what he thinks subconsciously".

That is how the thought police work.
But by your observable actions and statements are you known, From this people will infer you thought processes. That is normal human behaviour. If your actions or statements are abhorrent to people, they will infer that your opinions and thoughts on the matter are equally abhorrent. Otherwise why would you say or do it?

[langleybaston]

One possible reason these days is called trolling I believe.

[Ninthace]

One possible reason these days is called trolling I believe.
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt in that regard.

[langleybaston]

As I was also giving you the benefit of the doubt in that regard.

[Ninthace]

As I was also giving you the benefit of the doubt in that regard.
There is nothing like the cut and thrust of witty repartee, and that was nothing like it!

[ORAC]

From Politico London Playbook. Disregard the headline about the army, the report covers cases in the RAF as well.

ABUSE IN THE ARMY: The MoD faces questions today after a shocking report from the Economist’s 1843 magazine on sexual harassment and assault in the armed forces and how much of it still goes unreported and unpunished. Read the year-long investigation here.

https://www.economist.com/interactive/1843/2022/04/28/the-family-secret-british-army-abuse

“The family secret”: how rape is hushed up in Britain’s armed forces

[downsizer]

Utterly disgraceful story.

No doubt some old hands will be along to report it didn't happen in their day cus they were too busy handing out soap dicks or some other BS.

[SASless]

The UK is not alone with criticism of being easy on Sex Offenders.

https://www.armed-services.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Recent_Military_Sexual_Assault_Scandals_06-04-13.pdf

During my tenure as a US DOD Criminal Investigator....I know for a fact that every allegation of Rape or Sexual Assault was thoroughly investigated and given a high priority with very close monitoring by our Organization's HQ.

The system saw the Investigative Report be submitted to the Officer having responsibility for initiating UCMJ prosecutions for action.

We made no recommendations for an outcome but merely did the Investigation using every means required to determine the fact situation and collect testimony and evidence.

Four of my cases stand out in my memory....one a Rape/Murder of a Female Prostitute, a second case of the Rape of a Female Prostitute, a Rape of a Female Service Member by a fellow Male Service Member, and another Rape of a Female Service Member by a Male Superior Ranking Service Member.

The first case resulted in the Conviction of the Killer who was sentenced to Eighteen Years in a Non-US Prison, the next case was settled out of Court by an offer to drop the charges if a large cash payment was made to settle local charges but Administrative Action against the Servicemember, the third was a case of withdrawn consent following the consensual intercourse by a Married Woman having remorse over a drunken weekend, and the final went to General Court-Martial where the Defendant was found "Not Guilty" (also the result of a drunken weekend but only reported three days after the assault and no forensic evidence could be obtained.

So a short recap....the Rape/Murder was a very sad case and was a very brutal murder but we worked hard to solve the case and did so....gaining a confession from the Killer and collected all manner of physical evidence.
The Service Member was Dishonorably Discharged upon his Conviction in the Non-US Court and was sentenced to eighteen years in the Non-US Prison.

The next case involved a young girl who had been "sold" to a Service Member as being a "Three Hole Girl" and upon forcing himself upon her against her Will....was charged with Rape by the US Authorities. The local Mayor approached the US Government with an offer to drop the Criminal Charges in exchange for 20,000 USD. The Senior US Commander and Defendant agreed to the Deal and I was required to orchestrate the exchange. Knowing the truth of the matter....the Mayor was going to keep the vast majority of the money and the victim would get a few hundred dollars at best and still be held in her sad circumstances....I and my local Investigator Partner arranged the deal where by upon his taking possession of the Victim, I would get the Paperwork confirming the Deal signed by the Mayor....I would tell the Mayor I had to take the Paperwork back to my Boss for his approval to release the money....and instead what we did was give the money directly to the Victim and my Partner drove to a great distance away for her to join family where she would be safe. The Mayor was not amused which was most heart warming knowing we helped the young girl and there was no recourse by the Mayor or Pimps.

The third case involved a Female Service Member who had engaged in a rowdy weekend of drunken partying with other members of her Unit where she engaged in Consensual Sex with at least two different Male Members of her Unit. She then filed a complaint of Rape and specified a particular staircase in a local hotel where said Rape took place. In not time we tracked down everyone that was involved, identified the two Males who had sexual relations with her....with both freely admitting that fact and who signed sworn statements to that effect. There was no physical evidence to be found. Intereviews of several Female Members of the Unit surfaced information that raised the fact the Victim had been voicing concerns about having used no contraceptive measures and feared the adverse effects a pregnancy would have upon. her marriage. In my civilian Police Department we would have "Unfounded" that complaint but the my DOD Organization forwarded that Report as a Rape Case where some Administrative Punishment was handed down.

The final case, was really sad. Young Female Service Member went out on the town with fellow Unit Members, lots of drinking, with one Male superior treating her to drinks all night....then forcing himself upon her, throwing her out of his car onto the side of the road. Unfortunately, she did not report the Rape until three days later when her Command observed her having a psychological breakdown in Ranks and she was counseled as to the cause of her behavior when she told of the assault. The Case went to General Court-Martial despite my telling the JAG Officer we did not have a Case due to the lack of witnesses, no forensic evidence despite a Ten Man Search team who walked many miles of highway looking for her discarded underwear. The Defendant was acqutted of all Charges to include the simple "Fraternization" Offense. What I saw the Defense Counsel do to that Young Woman in Court that day amounted to a Virtual Rape as his cross examination went way over the line. I know she felt betrayed by the system.....because she was. She was to be returned to the same unit....and have to serve under the same guy that had Raped her. I was able to convince the Base Commander, a Two Star General, she should be granted a transfer to some place away from our current location and he agreed and made that happen. I drove her to the airport which was a four hour drive.....and helped her as best I could. Had it been my Daughter I would have liked for someone to do that for her.

Four good examples of what we are talking about when we talk of "Rape" in the Military.

Each time....in my part of the US DOD....we placed a high priority on the cases and worked hard to fully document what transpired....not just to convict but to clear those of false allegations.
The good results of those Investigations did not always get used by Command to take genuinely appropriate actions....and that is my concern.

Command Influence, JAG Officers yielding to Command Influence or trying to play Perry Mason, Commanders who mis-use their position, all play a role in the Sexual Assault "problem" in the Military.....exactly as it does in the Civilian World.

[[email protected]]

Since the Met Police - responsible for protecting people and investigating crimes against them - failed miserably to investigate an alleged rape in 2004 by a taxi driver, who then went on to repeat his crimes many times until he was finally caught in 2008 despite being interviewed by police in 2007 - is it such a surprise that such offences go either unreported or un-investigated in the military?

John Worboys in case you don't remember his string of offences.

[albatross]

I am waiting for someone to advocate for the castration (chemical or physical) of all males in the military. Rape cases would plummet!

Hat, coat, door.

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/warmatters/status/1659131238546919425?s=61&t=rmEeUn68HhlFHGKbTPQr_A


The UK HofC Defence Select Committee enquiry into Women in Armed Forces have taken evidence on sexual assault & rape.

This evidence demonstrates 'serious failings within the military justice system & Chain of Command'

This could easily be like the Met…

​​​​​​​
https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/118879/pdf/

[SASless]

Albatross.....you omitted "virtual" castration which seems so in vogue these days especially with the very senior ranks.:rolleyes:

[Toadstool]

It’s heartbreaking to read the news today about Gunner Beck.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66982160

Given this happened around the same time of the issuance of the report in this thread, hopefully things have improved.

This is precisely one of the reasons that we have inclusivity programmes, to try to generate cohesive units that don’t contain sexual predators.

[alfred_the_great]

It’s heartbreaking to read the news today about Gunner Beck.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66982160

Given this happened around the same time of the issuance of the report in this thread, hopefully things have improved.

This is precisely one of the reasons that we have inclusivity programmes, to try to generate cohesive units that don’t contain sexual predators.

I am almost certain things haven’t improved.

[langleybaston]

No better in the Civil Service as I knew it: a very small proportion of blokes in authority positions usually getting away with getting it away.
Meanwhile the decent ones lusted just as much, but did not keep their brains in their trousers.

The good big difference is that there are now protocols in place which, whilst not sorting the problem, alleviate it to a degree. The predators remain despicable and the consequences for them are woefully inadequate.

Thank goodness for a free press, however risible some utterances are.

[downsizer]

I am almost certain things haven’t improved.

I don't know (though I have been out for a whole 6 months now) but in my areas the culture certainly had and was still changing. Saw things get stopped before they could become an issue and offenders dealt with appropriately.

Maybe it's down to where you work? Pockets survice in some places?

[trim it out]

I don't know (though I have been out for a whole 6 months now) but in my areas the culture certainly had and was still changing. Saw things get stopped before they could become an issue and offenders dealt with appropriately.

Maybe it's down to where you work? Pockets survice in some places?
How did you change the culture out of curiosity? Was it personality or policy driven?

[alfred_the_great]

I don't know (though I have been out for a whole 6 months now) but in my areas the culture certainly had and was still changing. Saw things get stopped before they could become an issue and offenders dealt with appropriately.

Maybe it's down to where you work? Pockets survice in some places?

if this young woman hadn’t killed herself, I’m pretty sure no one would’ve intervened (or probably been aware). But she still would’ve been harassed by four separate WOs and NCOs.

are you sure sure that it’s “better” where you were?

[NutLoose]

Nine rapes reported over a 13 month period at Harrogate Military College that trains 16-17 year olds for military service!!!

WTF is going on?

Nine rapes at the Harrogate military college, which trains 16- and 17-year-olds for careers in the British army, were reported to civilian police over a 13-month period to the middle of August, figures show.

Disclosed under freedom of information legislation, the figures raise questions about safeguarding at Harrogate, and why its welfare arrangements are rated as “outstanding” by Ofsted.
North Yorkshire’s police and crime commissioner said that (https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/1014807/response/2418788/attach/4/Response.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1) “13 sexual offences” at the Army Foundation college were reported between 22 July 2022 and 17 August 2023, including nine reports of rape, two of sexual assault and two of voyeurism.

No details were given as to whether they led to investigations or prosecutions, or the gender of the victims. It follows a string of reports of rape, abuse and harassment across the UK military, with the majority of the victims being women and girls.

This week, it emerged that a 19-year-old Royal Artillery gunner, Jaysley Beck (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/04/soldier-jaysley-beck-took-her-own-life-sexual-harassment-army), was believed to have killed herself at Larkhill camp, in Wiltshire, after a period of relentless sexual harassment by one of her superiors.

During 2021, there were 22 victims of sexual offences (https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2022-04-14/154397) at the Harrogate college. In January 2023 one instructor, Cpl Simon Bartram, was sentenced to 20 months’ military detention, after being found guilty at court martial of sexual assault and eight counts of cruel or indecent disgraceful conduct.


Nine rapes at Harrogate military college reported to civilian police in 13 months (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/nine-rapes-at-harrogate-military-college-reported-to-civilian-police-in-13-months/ar-AA1hKKPz?ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=fdf50cbc7c1745f3a59ba608b5284896&ei=1)

[NutLoose]

To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, with reference to the Sexual Offences in the Service Justice System statistics for 2021 published on 31 March 2022, how many of the 47 victims of sexual offences cases aged under 18 were based at the Army Foundation College at the time of the offence.

Answered on26 April 2022

Of the 47 victims in those statistics, 37 were female and of those cases one has been proven, four are ongoing, and 11 have been transferred to the civilian police. 22 were based at the Army Foundation College at the time of the offence.


https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2022-04-14/154397#

[downsizer]

How did you change the culture out of curiosity? Was it personality or policy driven?

I didn't personally change the culture on my own. But I would say it was a combination of both policy and crucially a senior management team that adopted a zero tolerance policy to unsavoury behaviour. We also had a very open culture whereby people came forward when there were issues, both personally or third parties when they witnessed things.

if this young woman hadn’t killed herself, I’m pretty sure no one would’ve intervened (or probably been aware). But she still would’ve been harassed by four separate WOs and NCOs.

are you sure sure that it’s “better” where you were?

Yeah I can I think. People were dislipined and removed were I worked for inappropriate behaviour, and people came forward with complaints when needed. Would we catch everything, probably not, no one is perfect, but I think we had a culture in the Org that everyone knew where they stood with this type of thing.

I'm not saying that it may be service wide, but in my corner, yes.

[pr00ne]

I didn't personally change the culture on my own. But I would say it was a combination of both policy and crucially a senior management team that adopted a zero tolerance policy to unsavoury behaviour. We also had a very open culture whereby people came forward when there were issues, both personally or third parties when they witnessed things.



Yeah I can I think. People were dislipined and removed were I worked for inappropriate behaviour, and people came forward with complaints when needed. Would we catch everything, probably not, no one is perfect, but I think we had a culture in the Org that everyone knew where they stood with this type of thing.

I'm not saying that it may be service wide, but in my corner, yes.

We need far more folk with an attitude like yours in positions of power to bring this abuse to an end.

Well done.

[ORAC]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/nov/16/sixty-women-at-mod-complain-of-widespread-toxic-and-hostile-behaviour

Sixty women at MoD complain of widespread ‘toxic’ and ‘hostile’ behaviour

Sixty senior women at the UK’s Ministry of Defence (https://www.theguardian.com/uk/ministry-of-defence) have described a “hostile” and “toxic” culture at the department in a letter that alleges sexual assault, harassment and abuse by male colleagues.

The letter, seen by the Guardian, was sent last month by a large group of senior civil servants to the MoD’s permanent secretary alongside anonymised testimonies in which women described their personal experiences (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/nov/16/the-eyes-tracking-me-is-awful-senior-womens-complaints-about-mod-behaviour).

The accounts included claims that women had been “propositioned”, “groped” and “touched repeatedly” by male colleagues at the MoD in a workplace culture the civil servants said was “hostile to women as equal and respected partners”.

In the letter, which is marked “official-sensitive”, the group of “senior civilian women” said their “day-to-day professional lives are made difficult thanks to behaviours that would be considered toxic and inappropriate in public life, but that are tolerated at the MoD”.....

The accounts, which the letter said came from “senior civilian women in operational and security roles”, include:

A woman who said she was groped at an MoD social function but was advised against complaining.

A woman on an overseas posting who said she was “touched repeatedly on the lower back and legs by a senior military officer” but the “perpetrator went unpunished”.

The claim that a group of military officers kept an “Excel spreadsheet that rated women” based on “their looks and what they thought they’d be like in bed”.

A woman who said that before an evening event, a “defence senior” asked a woman “whether anal sex was an appropriate topic for his speech”.
An account of how a military officer “propositioned” a woman “late at night in a corridor” on an overseas military base.

....In the testimonies, which are said to be “the tip of the iceberg” and illustrative of a “current problem, not a historic one”, women described feeling “sick with fear”, “sobbing in the bathroom”, and being subjected to “intimidating” behaviour.

According to the letter, attempts by women at the MoD to speak out against the behaviour “are generally minimised rather than listened to, and it is common knowledge among women that [the MoD’s] complaints system is not fit for purpose”.....

Among the accounts of sexual harassment and inappropriate behaviour included in the letter, women said they had felt uncomfortable and unsafe while working at the MoD’s headquarters, known as Main Building, in Whitehall.

“The groups of men staring is horrible,” said one woman, describing her experience of walking through one of the building’s main hallways. “The constant objectification and harassment is appalling. Behaviours that are completely unacceptable on public transport, for example, are accepted in pockets of Main Building.”

According to another woman, a sexual advance from a senior military official had a lasting effect on her. “It shattered my confidence and, I hate having to say this, I couldn’t help but question whether it was my fault: what is it about me that made this man think he could do this?......

[ORAC]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mod-bullying-and-discrimination-payouts-double-in-two-years-q3xdxkb0t

MoD bullying and discrimination payouts double in two years

Payouts for bullying, harassment and discrimination by the Ministry of Defence have more than doubled in what has been condemned as a “shocking” waste of talent and money.

The number of settlements, as well as the average amount paid to victims, has risen sharply over the past two years, it has emerged.….

New figures show that the number of payouts for bullying and harassment was fewer than five in 2020-21, rising to six in 2021-22 and doubling to 12 in 2022-23.

Over the same period, the average compensation sum went from £100,527 in 2020-21 to £228,669 the following year and £235,564 in 2022-23.

Civilian bullying complaints that were upheld jumped from 24 in 2020 to 33 this year. During the same period, the number of sexual harassment complaints from civilian staff rose from 6 to 16.

Among military personnel, there have been 298 bullying complaints upheld since 2020, as well as 111 relating to discrimination and a further 46 concerning harassment.

Andrew Murrison, the defence minister, revealed the figures in response to written questions by Maria Eagle, the shadow defence procurement minister. It lifts the lid on the extent of inappropriate behaviour that critics say is prolific within the MoD.…..

Eagle also raised concerns about the “deeply concerning trend within the MoD”. She said: “Ministers must lead from the top to root out unacceptable behaviour in the MoD and the armed forces.

“Labour in government will also legislate to establish an armed forces commissioner to act as a strong independent voice to improve the lives of serving personnel and their families.”….

[langleybaston]

Is harassment [I choose only one of the spectrum of unacceptable behaviours] a growing phenomenon, or was it ever thus, and is now a Me Too construct?

My last contact with the RAF was 1997, and in 41 years the nearest I came to victimhood was with several OCs Ops or OCs Flying leaning on me to moderate forecasts that did not suit their programme .............. cross wind, thunderstorm warning, that sort of thing.

The strength of that relationship was that Met was civilian, with an independent chain of command. Only in the most severe cases did the matter cause a Station Commander to ask for removal, and that was invariably acted on, as it should be.

[Toadstool]

Is harassment [I choose only one of the spectrum of unacceptable behaviours] a growing phenomenon, or was it ever thus, and is now a Me Too construct?

My last contact with the RAF was 1997, and in 41 years the nearest I came to victimhood was with several OCs Ops or OCs Flying leaning on me to moderate forecasts that did not suit their programme .............. cross wind, thunderstorm warning, that sort of thing.

The strength of that relationship was that Met was civilian, with an independent chain of command. Only in the most severe cases did the matter cause a Station Commander to ask for removal, and that was invariably acted on, as it should be.

LB. It was ever thus. I’ve been in the military for 37 years and have seen and heard of multiple occasions of harassment. Those people who have told me of their stories would be horrified to think that this was a “victimhood”. The difference between now and what happened years ago is that what would have constituted banter years ago (only by men) is now considered inappropriate behaviour. This has led to a culture where this is now much easier to report.
We now have, quite rightly, a zero tolerance attitude. The days of giving “dick soaps” as presents to females, and thinking that was harmless banter, is over.(in addition to much worse inappropriate behaviours).
This means, of course, that there has been an increase of reporting of such behaviours which looks like that the current RAF has a bigger problem. This is not the case. We have a culture now that such behaviour is not tolerated, which means that it is much less prevelent.
All of the females that I talked to, who underwent much worse cases of inappropriate behaviour in the 80s, 80s and 00s, never reported it. They felt they couldn’t, or wouldn’t have been supported had they done so.
We are in a better place. Society and the RAF values do not allow this to happen anymore and, should it do so, the harshest penalties are dished out.
I’m glad that you, as a civilian providing met for the RAF, was never subject to, nor observed, any such behaviour.