VA pilots threatened with AWARD wages

[Packvalve]

Contrary to popular belief, A NO VOTE DOES NOT MEAN VA PILOTS WILL AUTOMATICALLY GO TO THE AWARD! (I would have more sympathy if the new owners weren't raking in over $106 BILLION in annual revenue!!)

VA would need to make an application to Fair Work Commission (a lengthy and complicated process that will take years)! Further, the Fair Work Act sets a VERY HIGH BAR when it comes to terminating an EA, i.e:

VA will need to satisfy that they have negotiated in good faith (perceived threats to drag its pilots back to the award if they vote NO are NOT in GOOD FAITH!!!);
VA will need to show it's been involved in protracted negotiations with their employees, which has to be far beyond 2 years;
VA must have been involved in multiple mediation sessions with the Fair Work Commission to try and resolve the impasse between them and their pilots; and
VA MUST have a compelling case for operational change (e.g. they have no choice but to wind up the company, resulting in loss of jobs (they've just hired 88 pilots, during the lockdown!!)).

The Unions have rolled over and are now citing cases that are in stark contrast to what is happening at VA! VA pilots should call the Fair Work Commission or get some independent legal advice. Educate yourself before voting, don’t gamble away your long term livelihood. It is not in the best interests of Virgin to dissolve the EA (for a number of reasons) and they can’t threaten dragging you back to the Award if you vote NO. Call their bluff!

[aussieflyboy]

It’s in every pilots best interest to support the Virgin Pilot group and ensure a sub par agreement isn’t voted in.

There is simply no viable reason why pay or conditions should be less then what they are now.

Any Union advising members to vote in a worse EA then what they’re on now needs to be named and shamed so their members can send emails denouncing any such advice.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Which union suggested we vote this up again?

[TheGoose21]

The Unions have rolled over and are now citing cases that are in stark contrast to what is happening at VA

Are they? I have read both unions info and don’t think that is the case. Pretty sure also, both unions have said this is their legal advice on most things. Not “this is what will happen as a fact”

They have both given opinions (as they are entitled to). Take it or don’t take it, but it will be the majority of the Pilots only who will decide.
So if gets up, be pissed off that you are in the minority and the bulk of your colleagues don’t agree with you.

Either way, singing your tune for the pprune rumour folk won’t change anything. It just makes you smell of desperation and takes credibility away from your argument.

[turbantime]

Just to be clear, the unions have not said that a No vote will automatically mean a return to the award. Neither has the company. The risk is there and there will be some more hurdles before they get to that point, but the unions have explained that very clearly. It appears that the OP can’t read and digest information unemotionally.

[sandersonpab]

No company is going to go to FW after 2 rounds of negotiating lol.. the first offer will always be low, although it seems the subsequent offer made by Virgin was even worse.. Pilots needs to stand up for themselves. I agree with the OP, call their bluff, that's the only way they're going to come back with better terms.
Consider contributing some $$ into the kitty and taking all the info to a lawyer to get some impartial legal advice. It's shocking the unions are endorsing it after the second round of negotiations.. they sound like they're over it too..

[non_state_actor]

There is simply no viable reason why pay or conditions should be less then what they are now.

OK let's hear it then. The company was bankrupt. There are 1000's of unemployed pilots sitting around not to mention expats. Explain why you are so valuable in the current climate.........

[ACMS]

Yep, be happy you lot have a job. Many of us lost ours….

[The Love Doctor]

Yep, be happy you lot have a job. Many of us lost ours….
By sticking together and not accepting lower conditions, it will make for a better EBA for when people like yourself come back to flying again. Its in the long term interests of all pilots. Unemployment is fkn horrible. I know - Ive been there. But Im sure you wont complain if you end up flying for Virgin with a super good EBA.

[aussieflyboy]

Yep, be happy you lot have a job. Many of us lost ours….

So you blokes are saying 18 months ago all pilots were over-paid for what they do and because of an incompetent management team should now take a paycut?

This paycut will be used as an example by every management team from every other Australian company to lower wages. QF management have already publicly made it known that whatever the percentage reduction that Virgin crew get, they will expect the same for all their entities.

18 months from now when everyone has been re-hired and we’re all on overtime (at 10%+ less pay) you will regret reducing your wages. Remember the folks that are pushing a reduction in pay are the over 60s who’ve already paid off their house and own the big boat/caravan/whatever and are simply trying to get through a few more years until retirement…

[Peter Fanelli]

aussieflyboy please have a look at
https://writingexplained.org/payed-or-paid-difference

[Packvalve]

Just to be clear, the unions have not said that a No vote will automatically mean a return to the award. Neither has the company. The risk is there and there will be some more hurdles before they get to that point, but the unions have explained that very clearly.

The messaging has consistently been that it's either the EA or we will revert to the award, but as you rightly pointed out, there is still a significant number of hurdles they must jump before it even ends up before Fair Work. There are over 20,000 EAs that are approved by Fair Work each year and only 3 or 4 EAs that have been successfully terminated by FW in the past 5-6 years. It is very unlikely without the right accumulation of circumstances that a termination application will be successful.. you only have to read the cases to see this..

What's astounding is that in the latest proposal, they've binned the DTA and reduced the salary of some of the pilots to give to another group of pilots, presumably to increase management's salary.. they're clearly shifting money around to benefit one group at the expense of the other. A NO vote is simply a response to a **** deal and a long way from PIA (which nobody wants) and will simply result in a continuation of the current EA.

[Steely Dan]

Packvalve is spot on.

[LostWanderer]

OK let's hear it then. The company was bankrupt. There are 1000's of unemployed pilots sitting around not to mention expats. Explain why you are so valuable in the current climate.........

Yep. Unfortunately the reality is in a COVID world that we as pilots no longer hold any kind of advantage in pay negotiations and every airlines management in the country knows it, despite how valuable any of us believe ourselves to be. Not saying I like it one bit but it’s just the reality of the situation.

Massive over supply of crew desperate to work and under demand of travel from the public is going to result in a potential race to the bottom again til things really turn around, and that seems like it’s getting much further away by the day right now.

[Dookie on Drums]

Yep. Unfortunately the reality is in a COVID world that we as pilots no longer hold any kind of advantage in pay negotiations and every airlines management in the country knows it, despite how valuable any of us believe ourselves to be. Not saying I like it one bit but it’s just the reality of the situation.

Massive over supply of crew desperate to work and under demand of travel from the public is going to result in a potential race to the bottom again til things really turn around, and that seems like it’s getting much further away by the day right now.

Sorry to say but this is pretty much spot on. Sad state of affairs but be happy you have a job and not a bad one at that.

[murder most fowl]

"raking in over $106 BILLION in annual revenue!!"

Where did this figure regarding "revenue" come from?

No one wants to earn less guaranteed money but so long as the work is there the minimum credit won't be a problem.

If the work is NOT there, do you think it's reasonable to work 50 hours but be paid for 70?

The offer is a fundamental change but there have been some lifestyle wins by the unions and its something to build on in future.

[PPRuNeUser0184]

Yep. Unfortunately the reality is in a COVID world that we as pilots no longer hold any kind of advantage in pay negotiations and every airlines management in the country knows it, despite how valuable any of us believe ourselves to be. Not saying I like it one bit but it’s just the reality of the situation.

Massive over supply of crew desperate to work and under demand of travel from the public is going to result in a potential race to the bottom again til things really turn around, and that seems like it’s getting much further away by the day right now.

Yep, spot on.

[krismiler]

Back in the 1990s, working in GA we used to dream of getting the award as there were many employers who didn't even pay the legal minimum.

A deal needs to be struck, where pay and conditions are realistic and enable the company to survive the present situation, but don't set a precedent for the future when normality returns. There needs to be a provision for when profitability returns.

[Bend alot]

Y

Massive over supply of crew desperate to work and under demand of travel from the public

Do Not Blame the public - that can not travel!

Many of us have flights booked, flight credits with both Virgin and Jetstar (that we could not use) and even cruises booked - no shortage of demand!

[turbantime]

Question. If you fly 70 hours/mth on the current EBA, and 70 hours/mth on the proposed EBA, what is the pay difference?
Exactly the same pay but under the ‘new’ EBA, you get an extra day off every second roster (12 DDOs vs alternating 11/12 currently).

[slice]

Captain BB, the AFAP published this in their communications. This is hours per 4 Week roster. Minimum hard payments of 5 hours for working a day off are gone. Min guarantee is set at 57.5 hours (actually 56.75 as there is a .75 credit for online courses) gives a new base salary of CAPT $200330 {no annual leave) $203412 (4 weeks annual leave) FO $130065 (no leave) $132066 (4 weeks leave). DDO start at 2130 prev night so hard credit from 2200. Worst case - never exceed Min credit and no leave taken 16.33% pay cut. Unlikely but there it is.
https://d28lcup14p4e72.cloudfront.net/241329/6381909/58327DC9-998F-47F0-B346-FBDB399A24D9.jpeg

https://d28lcup14p4e72.cloudfront.net/241329/6379645/Capture.jpg

[turbantime]

Worst case - never exceed Min credit and no leave taken 16.33% pay cut. Unlikely but there it is.

That number is what some guys are bleating about. What they fail to recognise is that if the hours don’t support the current 69 hour EBA, company continues on with MOU. If unions deny MOU extensions, company stand people down. So either way, you’ll get paid the same amount.

[Packvalve]

Worst case - never exceed Min credit and no leave taken 16.33% pay cut. Unlikely but there it is.

Good to see someone comparing apples with apples rather than comparing apples with citrus (Award) as one of the Unions did. However, I think your worst case scenario is more likely than not given they are currently increasing pilot numbers, but not flying hours.

[DirectAnywhere]

Is it zero pay for sick leave if you're above 57.5? If so, that's a disgrace.

Nothing like encouraging people to come to work sick.

[turbantime]

However, I think your worst case scenario is more likely than not given they are currently increasing pilot numbers, but not flying hours.
In which case the company would still find a way to pay you less via MOUs and/or stand downs.

[Steely Dan]

...$200k, 1% pay rises and no credit for Reserve duties....mmmm. If this is voted up, it sets the path for the entire industry.

[Packvalve]

That number is what some guys are bleating about. What they fail to recognise is that if the hours don’t support the current 69 hour EBA, company continues on with MOU. If unions deny MOU extensions, company stand people down. So either way, you’ll get paid the same amount.

Sorry Tim, this makes about as much sense as your responses at the Town Halls.

[turbantime]

Sorry Tim, this makes about as much sense as your responses at the Town Halls.
Yeah cool, in the absence of a proper retort, resort to name calling. Keep screaming from the balcony, no one is listening.

[murder most fowl]

Do QF get 0 credit for standby if not called out? Seem to recall AFAP writing this recently.

13 DDO for less than 65 credit hours is a good thing and will make the company think about not stuffing a roster with standby.

Once again, if the work is not there, do you expect to be paid in full to a higher minimum guarantee? Yeah its a pay cut if you are restricted to 57 hours pay compared to 2019, but if that's all you are flying in 12 months time then there are bigger problems at hand.

Just had a look; QF receive no credit for standby and minimum 4 hours credit for the first day only. VA mimimum 4 hours credit for every standby day used.

[SOPS]

...$200k, 1% pay rises and no credit for Reserve duties....mmmm. If this is voted up, it sets the path for the entire industry.


I know where you are coming from. But can I suggest 200k to an unemployed pilot might look pretty good.

[sandersonpab]

...$200k, 1% pay rises and no credit for Reserve duties....mmmm. If this is voted up, it sets the path for the entire industry.

Spot on. Alan Joyce is going to be waiting with bated breath.

[sandersonpab]

I know where you are coming from. But can I suggest 200k to an unemployed pilot might look pretty good.

So are you saying that when you return to flying, you'd be happy earning what you were earning ten years ago?

[PoppaJo]

...$200k, 1% pay rises and no credit for Reserve duties....mmmm. If this is voted up, it sets the path for the entire industry.
Half the industry is already there. I mean the Star is about 15 years behind in remuneration, Rex uses that as its pawn and takes another 10% off. That place will probably struggle to make money so forget any increases there for ever and ever. The star bosses will soon think they are paying too much! Will bite them on the @rse when everyone pisses off later this decade for the big twins when dollars are upped abroad.

Short Term haircuts folks.

[Pucken Pilot]

No company is going to go to FW after 2 rounds of negotiating lol.. the first offer will always be low, although it seems the subsequent offer made by Virgin was even worse.. Pilots needs to stand up for themselves. I agree with the OP, call their bluff, that's the only way they're going to come back with better terms.
Consider contributing some $$ into the kitty and taking all the info to a lawyer to get some impartial legal advice. It's shocking the unions are endorsing it after the second round of negotiations.. they sound like they're over it too..

Virgin went to Fair Work seeking "Bargaining Assistance" after LESS than 2 rounds of negotiations with the Cabin Crew EA, and got their changes, so why would they come back with better terms to Pilots? What leverage are Pilots going to use to stand up for themselves... PIA in a pandemic after exiting Administration?

[sandersonpab]

Virgin went to Fair Work seeking "Bargaining Assistance" after LESS than 2 rounds of negotiations with the Cabin Crew EA, and got their changes

"Bargaining Assistance" is exactly that, it's not the same thing as applying to Fair Work to terminate an EA. The latter is a very lengthy road, according to my discussions with Fair Work.

[turbantime]

"Bargaining Assistance" is exactly that, it's not the same thing as applying to Fair Work to terminate an EA. The latter is a very lengthy road, according to my discussions with Fair Work.
Except the ‘bargaining assistance’ was the commissioner writing a letter directly to cabin crew stating that a no vote would meet the requirements for the termination of their EBA.

I do not want to see us go down this path as the alternative to this EBA are worse conditions, either through an alternative EBA (worse than this one) or the award. There is no way that we’ll be able to keep the current EBA after exiting administration and in the middle of a pandemic.

[Servo]

And the end of the day, vote no if it doesn't meet your lifestyle/remuneration expectations. If enough people vote no, then it will go to Fair Work. I have no doubt VA will go to Fair Work and go their hardest. Time will tell.

If it gets up, then you will have to live with it for the next 2 years and go from there. Good luck.

[sandersonpab]

Except the ‘bargaining assistance’ was the commissioner writing a letter directly to cabin crew stating that a no vote would meet the requirements for the termination of their EBA.

It would meet the requirements for an application to be made, it's not the same as an order to terminate the EA. Also, you have to remember that there is not much difference between the Cabin Crew's EA and the award, but there is a substantial difference between the pilots' EA and the award. As someone said earlier, it's a very high bar and a difficult, time consuming and expensive exercise for Virgin. Fear mongering at its finest, I say.

[Pucken Pilot]

"Bargaining Assistance" is exactly that, it's not the same thing as applying to Fair Work to terminate an EA. The latter is a very lengthy road, according to my discussions with Fair Work.

Your statement was "No company is going to go to FW after 2 rounds of negotiating lol."

I was just pointing out that Virgin sought assistance from Fair Work on the Cabin Crew EA prior to 2 rounds of negotiating being completed.

Apologies if facts aren't welcome.

[sandersonpab]

Your statement was "No company is going to go to FW after 2 rounds of negotiating lol.".

They requested assistance, it wasn't an application to terminate. There's a difference.

[Tabasco James]

Pilots will be looking at considerable compounding losses over the life of the agreement and beyond. The only certainty in this agreement would be the other carriers doing the same if agreed to by VA pilots.

[Cypher]

So are you saying that when you return to flying, you'd be happy earning what you were earning ten years ago?
A bit rich asking that (pun intended)

I think yes, because it beats the $$$ being paid outside the industry while not flying. Why should those that took the bullet for everyone else put off their possible return for the benefit of those that kept their jobs when theres a chance to get back in?

Times are $h!t. when they turn again, thats the time to demand the higher wages, with hopefully an already larger workforce.

[non_state_actor]

Ending up on the Award with CAO 48 work rules will be the biggest own goal in the history of negotiations. You are then stuck on that with no protections, no overtime still working 12 hours/ 4-5 sectors a day. Then in 2-3 years time you are negotiating from that position. What are you willing to trade for DDO protections you once had?

I think we would have some leverage if the award was really the award as the real award would be unworkable for an airline. However this ridiculous situation where CASA get to muscle in on industrial relations takes away any leverage held by the pilots.

[What-ho Squiffy!]

There's a Psychology aphorism - people fear loss twice as much as we relish success.

For existing crews, the future seems horrible with each chip-away at pay and conditions. But, there are probably upsides that obscured by the fear of losing something.

Nothing is the same as 10 years ago, 20 years ago... it's all gone, never to return, and newbies will always come through the system to replace you. The only viable option is forward...adapt and overcome. Bon chance.

[ManillaChillaDilla]

Having not been paid for 18 months I'd simply settle for minimum wage and a management team that doesnt lie through its teeth to me and cream all the OT while the rest of us go bankrupt.

If you are being paid to fly an airliner in this country currently, your doing alright.

Thankfully the unions are looking after us though so there is nothing to be concerned about.

MCD

[union]

...$200k, 1% pay rises and no credit for Reserve duties....mmmm. If this is voted up, it sets the path for the entire industry.

also don’t forget that the proposed EBA does not include any compensation for CPI increases.

currently the USA and many EU countries experience inflation levels in excess of 5%.

if during the next three years Australian CPI is 4% than straight away 12% pay reduction is achieved by the company .

so even if the next EBA of 2024 a 10% pay rise is achieved than effectively we are back at square one.

[ad-astra]

A lot of experts here with no skin in the game.

A world wide pandemic with historic levels of unemployment in the airline industry and an Australian avaition industry that is being hamstrung by the State and Federal pupet masters on a daily basis.

Having first hand knowledge of what VAA passenger loads are like and the cancellations that happen on a daily/weekly basis through no fault of our own, I have trouble reconciling the unbridled enthusiasm of some to enter into an industrial dispute with VAA during these very tough times.

I am being offered over $200K (fly or not - guaranteed) with 13 days off in 28 (Checkies over $262K)
I am being offered over $260K to fly 70 hours in 28
I am being offered over $270K to fly 80 hours in 28 and take 6 weeks leave.
I am being offered $170 per day in overnighting expenses.
Roster swap systems, overtime credits, protection against stand downs up to RP3 2022, Hard Credits ($) for infringing DDO/unscheduled overnight.

I write this as I hear on the TODAY show that Qantas have just announced 2500 'front line workers' have been laid off for the next 2 months.

We have a current staffing level of about 900 VAA pilots, down from about 2000 VAA pilots and every one of them want a flying job back.

Yep, I'm going to listen to the PPRuNe industrial experts.

[VH-ABC]

Plus, it’s not forever… say yes to what is on offer, and reset hopefully in better times in less than 3 years.

[cynphil]

VH-ABC

Not offering an opinion either way ……..

Quote…..Plus, it’s not forever… say yes to what is on offer, and reset hopefully in better times in less than 3 years.

But,
​​​​​​…..history proves ‘it is easier said than done’….

[sandersonpab]

also don’t forget that the proposed EBA does not include any compensation for CPI increases.

currently the USA and many EU countries experience inflation levels in excess of 5%.

if during the next three years Australian CPI is 4% than straight away 12% pay reduction is achieved by the company .

so even if the next EBA of 2024 a 10% pay rise is achieved than effectively we are back at square one.

Exactly this.

[ad-astra]

VH-ABC

Not offering an opinion either way ……..

Quote…..Plus, it’s not forever… say yes to what is on offer, and reset hopefully in better times in less than 3 years.

But,
​​​​​​…..history proves ‘it is easier said than done’….

I have to say that at almost 20 years with VAA, EVERY new EBA has been an improvement.

The EBA on offers does have 'issues' but ask the folks at Aurizon who had their EA terminated by FWC if they think the FWC is a toothless tiger.
Perhaps ask the folks at Griffin Coal who had their EA terminated by FWC
Or ask the folks at Murdoch University who had their EA terminated by FWC

I think your quote ‘it is easier said than done’ will be bitter sweet if we are trying to negoiate up from the AWARD if the FWC gets involved!

[sandersonpab]

I have to say that at almost 20 years with VAA, EVERY new EBA has been an improvement.

The EBA on offers does have 'issues' but ask the folks at Aurizon who had their EA terminated by FWC if they think the FWC is a toothless tiger.
Perhaps ask the folks at Griffin Coal who had their EA terminated by FWC
Or ask the folks at Murdoch University who had their EA terminated by FWC

I think your quote ‘it is easier said than done’ will be bitter sweet if we are trying to negoiate up from the AWARD if the FWC gets involved!

Have you actually READ those cases? Go and have a read of them, in their entirety, and you'll understand why they were terminated. These were the only 3 terminated in the past 7 years, out of thousands that have been unsuccessful.

[VH-ABC]

Sorry cynphil, I’m not picking up what you’re putting down.

[Tabasco James]

Would it be of the assumption that the middle and senior management responsible for creating this EBA are taking significant pay cuts and not receiving bonuses as a show of good faith?

The airline was purchased with a known cost base, the significant capital items have been seen to. It would appear this proposal is just icing on the cake for the new owner.

[Agent_86]

A lot of experts here with no skin in the game.

A world wide pandemic with historic levels of unemployment in the airline industry and an Australian avaition industry that is being hamstrung by the State and Federal pupet masters on a daily basis.

Having first hand knowledge of what VAA passenger loads are like and the cancellations that happen on a daily/weekly basis through no fault of our own, I have trouble reconciling the unbridled enthusiasm of some to enter into an industrial dispute with VAA during these very tough times.

I am being offered over $200K (fly or not - guaranteed) with 13 days off in 28 (Checkies over $262K)
I am being offered over $260K to fly 70 hours in 28
I am being offered over $270K to fly 80 hours in 28 and take 6 weeks leave.
I am being offered $170 per day in overnighting expenses.
Roster swap systems, overtime credits, protection against stand downs up to RP3 2022, Hard Credits ($) for infringing DDO/unscheduled overnight.

I write this as I hear on the TODAY show that Qantas have just announced 2500 'front line workers' have been laid off for the next 2 months.

We have a current staffing level of about 900 VAA pilots, down from about 2000 VAA pilots and every one of them want a flying job back.

Yep, I'm going to listen to the PPRuNe industrial experts.

Well said Ad-Astra! VA recently demonstrated the lengths they will go to with the new CC agreement, they won't be frightened of doing the same thing to the Pilots either. Take what you can get Folks, it may be your best offer for some time.

[murder most fowl]

Do you think FWA will improve the current offer? Do you think they or anyone else in fact, care about what MIGHT happen with inflation in 2 years? How about consider what MIGHT happen to this industry if COVID continues and factor that into your demands.

[Steely Dan]

It would be apparent the company is also using Pprune.

[murder most fowl]

Yep. Any differing opinion is incorrect. The company has infiltrated an anonymous forum to deliberately and effectively sabotage an EA vote as the staff don't have the smarts to make up their own minds or listen to their union.

[sandersonpab]

Yep. Any differing opinion is incorrect. The company has infiltrated an anonymous forum to deliberately and effectively sabotage an EA vote as the staff don't have the smarts to make up their own minds or listen to their union.

Sadly, we can't rely on the unions, who seem to be in the pockets of the company.. That appears to be why the OP suggested everyone get their own independent legal advise or contact Fair Work to make their own mind.

[non_state_actor]

Sadly, we can't rely on the unions, who seem to be in the pockets of the company.

How do you come to that conclusion? There are 3 unions :rolleyes: signing this document. Do you think they all got together and conspired to screw pilots?

Again do you think you will be able to go to Fair Work and get better than this? What are you going to do if the company comes back with a inferior "take it or leave it" deal? Vote no again then go to the award and hope the judge is on your side??

If you want to sprout No you need to come up with your plan B and show us where it leads.

[sandersonpab]

It would be apparent the company is also using Pprune.

Yep. Management are desperate and pulling out all stops to get this voted up.

[Break Right]

Sadly, we can't rely on the unions, who seem to be in the pockets of the company...
9 posts since July 2021. You’re what they call a bot and clearly someone who has no idea what you’re talking about. Give proof that the unions are in the companies pockets and you’ll have some street cred, otherwise you’re talking out your ar$e

[ad-astra]

I think the MAJOR concern here is that after everything the company has been through with the constant shifting and changing,( i.e Administration, COVID, MOU's, change in manuals, change in Work Rules and now this EA) the mental health of the Pilot group is being tested.

To think that the company will not provide you with a Sick Day payment after the MCG is in my opinion, wrong on every level.

To think that they are in a way, FORCING Pilots to work whilst Sick above MCG, during a CV19 Pandemic and after having sacrificed so much already, is immoral. For eg, If your above your MCG and call in Sick just for your First day of duty on a 4 day trip, the company can possibly take ALL those 4 days off you and you will receive no money at all.

Its a pretty important issue which should be addressed, if they actually care for the well being of their staff !

Blackout,

Is this issue one that should drive a NO vote and send us to FWC?
I think not.
Is the policy wrong?
Yes

If I am sick I will call in sick.
It is only the 'cost' to the pilot that is 'forcing' a pilot to go to work sick, not the company.
If a pilot elects to go to work unfit then we/he/she has a bigger problem.

Yes in the fullness of time it may very well be addressed (I hope so) but considering the voting period starts in two days I would say that nothing will be changing in their offer.
The Award by the way offers 5 less days personal leave.

[sandersonpab]

How do you come to that conclusion? There are 3 unions signing this document. Do you think they all got together and conspired to screw pilots?

Yep. Don't you think it's strange that the company was able to recently hire 100 pilots, during lockdown, when there was no flying and there's an imminent stand down? There's been some deal brokered between the unions and the company, hence the fear mongering campaign to push pilots to vote this EBA up. Every time someone mentions they spoke to FW, the unions send out an urgent advice urging people to vote up the EBA or end up on the award.

Again do you think you will be able to go to Fair Work and get better than this? What are you going to do if the company comes back with a inferior "take it or leave it" deal? Vote no again then go to the award and hope the judge is on your side?? If you want to sprout No you need to come up with your plan B and show us where it leads.

You don't just go to FW and seek to terminate an EA after a couple of negotiations. FW can only terminate the agreement after protracted negotiations and IF FW IS satisfied that it is not contrary to the public interest to do so, and that termination would be appropriate, taking into account all of the circumstances. It's a long, expensive process and of the thousands of applications made to terminate, isn't it interesting that only 3 companies that have been successful in having their EBAs terminated in the past 7 years? Read those cases. The fear mongering of pilots ending up on the award is abysmal to say the least.

[duckbelly]

I’m one of the older ones in VA, not quite retiring age yet, but heading towards it. Also been through the Ansett debacle where I had to sell my house, my car etc.
There are a few things that people need to bear in mind when having a go at the Company, and giving the proverbial finger to the mooted EBA.
1. 24 months ago VA was on its knees and so close to going bust it wasn’t funny. Bain, bless them, saw (presumably) financial potential in buying us out and took a punt on us. Enter COVID. Companies the likes of Bain, with a considerable amount of financial clout up their sleeves could have walked away and taken a 3-4% loss on their total finances. They didn’t.
2. All the little signs I see around the company point to owners that would like to see the business thrive. By this I mean new ipads, new IT systems, new ADL base, increase in number of airframes, rehiring of wide body crew etc etc. After all, they can’t onsell/IPO it if it isn’t well run and making money. For that to happen they need the staff onside as well.
3. This is not a perfect EBA. If it was a perfect one for the Pilots, it would’ve been a terrible one for the company. And the opposite is true as well.
4. What we have, then, is a compromise between the two parties. There are always going to be areas of contention and disagreement, such is the nature of bargaining.

I know personally some of the management pilots involved in the bargaining process. They are individuals of the highest integrity and would never try and force something unspeakable on us. They’ve been given a mandate by VA to reduce costs (I think 15%) and they have endeavoured to do that in the least painful way.
I for one will be voting FOR this EBA. I believe in the current climate, it’s the best outcome for us all.
We won’t go hungry and we won’t be out on the streets, something that we came perilously close to a short time ago.

[The Baron]

You had me until the last paragraph. If only that was true. No

[mohikan]

I’m one of the older ones in VA, not quite retiring age yet, but heading towards it. Also been through the Ansett debacle where I had to sell my house, my car etc.
There are a few things that people need to bear in mind when having a go at the Company, and giving the proverbial finger to the mooted EBA.
1. 24 months ago VA was on its knees and so close to going bust it wasn’t funny. Bain, bless them, saw (presumably) financial potential in buying us out and took a punt on us. Enter COVID. Companies the likes of Bain, with a considerable amount of financial clout up their sleeves could have walked away and taken a 3-4% loss on their total finances. They didn’t.
2. All the little signs I see around the company point to owners that would like to see the business thrive. By this I mean new ipads, new IT systems, new ADL base, increase in number of airframes, rehiring of wide body crew etc etc. After all, they can’t onsell/IPO it if it isn’t well run and making money. For that to happen they need the staff onside as well.
3. This is not a perfect EBA. If it was a perfect one for the Pilots, it would’ve been a terrible one for the company. And the opposite is true as well.
4. What we have, then, is a compromise between the two parties. There are always going to be areas of contention and disagreement, such is the nature of bargaining.

I know personally some of the management pilots involved in the bargaining process. They are individuals of the highest integrity and would never try and force something unspeakable on us. They’ve been given a mandate by VA to reduce costs (I think 15%) and they have endeavoured to do that in the least painful way.
I for one will be voting FOR this EBA. I believe in the current climate, it’s the best outcome for us all.
We won’t go hungry and we won’t be out on the streets, something that we came perilously close to a short time ago.

You had me until you wrote "ex Ansett", and presumably the managers are ex blue shirts as well

As you say you are near retirement. No doubt financially secure. Desperate to get a few more years of beer money, so if the younger generation goes under a bus to help that ambition so be it.

Some leopards never change their spots.

[Break Right]

Yep. Don't you think it's strange that the company was able to recently hire 100 pilots, during lockdown, when there was no flying and there's an imminent stand down? There's been some deal brokered between the unions and the company, hence the fear mongering campaign to push pilots to vote this EBA up. Every time someone mentions they spoke to FW, the unions send out an urgent advice urging people to vote up the EBA or end up on the award.



You don't just go to FW and seek to terminate an EA after a couple of negotiations. FW can only terminate the agreement after protracted negotiations and IF FW IS satisfied that it is not contrary to the public interest to do so, and that termination would be appropriate, taking into account all of the circumstances. It's a long, expensive process and of the thousands of applications made to terminate, isn't it interesting that only 3 companies that have been successful in having their EBAs terminated in the past 7 years? Read those cases. The fear mongering of pilots ending up on the award is abysmal to say the least.

Sorry, but I think you need to get off the cones!

[KRviator]

The other thing to consider - and I speak from experience here, having had my salary compared to a surgeon (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-30/are-train-drivers-in-the-pilbara-the-highest-paid-in-the-world/5029012?nw=0) (and unsurprisingly during EBA negotiations) - is "What will the public think if we go on strike over <X,Y & Z>?"

There's already a belief that Pilots are overpaid bus driver's these days, and rejecting an EBA that offers:
I am being offered over $200K (fly or not - guaranteed) with 13 days off in 28 (Checkies over $262K)
I am being offered over $260K to fly 70 hours in 28
I am being offered over $270K to fly 80 hours in 28 and take 6 weeks leave.
I am being offered $170 per day in overnighting expenses.is not going to win anyone any friends except for those already working, or about to start, with VA. The court of public opinion would be well and truly against you, when you consider how many people have lost work, or are out of work due to The Pestilence and you're seen to be turning your nose up at an EBA that will be said to offer a 1st Year FO $150K+ for those kinds of "hours".

[megle2]

Just conveying my thanks to all you guys finding it difficult to accept $150,000+ Your spending habits are helping the AUS economy tick along.

[duckbelly]

You had me until you wrote "ex Ansett", and presumably the managers are ex blue shirts as well

As you say you are near retirement. No doubt financially secure. Desperate to get a few more years of beer money, so if the younger generation goes under a bus to help that ambition so be it.

Some leopards never change their spots.

Ah Monihan. Such cynicism is painful to read.
-Not as financially secure as I’d like to be due to an inability to save for about ten years after Ansett
-But definitely not desperate.
-No, the managers I know are not ex blue shirts. And why do you say that with so much disdain? What is it about being ex Ansett that seems to get peoples backs up? Last time I looked we were pretty much the same as yourself and every other person on the planet.
-And finally, yes, I do change my spots. I’ve had to many times after nearly 40 years in the game. It’s called dealing with reality.

We agree, it’s not perfect. We just don’t agree on HOW unperfect it is.
Me, I’m going to stop and smell the roses now, regardless of whether it gets up or down.

[t_cas]

So, Bain bought Virgin “before” the pandemic; not out of administration because of the pandemic? Might need to correct that foundation faux pas.

These type of businesses have funds to buy highly valuable distressed assets, at a time when most are hunkering down trying to survive. Then they extract as much blood from it as possible. Grow or hold it for profit and then sell when a good offer comes along.

This is not about fairness or equity. It is about greed.

Running over judicial systems and government bodies puts into perspective the small speed hump that employees (individuals) are. This is who they are. The head of the local ship is the equivalent to a praying mantis.

opinion only.

[Lookleft]

No, the managers I know are not ex blue shirts. And why do you say that with so much disdain? What is it about being ex Ansett that seems to get peoples backs up? Last time I looked we were pretty much the same as yourself and every other person on the planet.

Same response at Jetstar. I don't get it. Its been 20 years people, time to let your grudges and hang-ups go. If a person is a pr$%k at your current airline then they were the same at a previous airline. So the logical conclusion is that it is about the individual not who they work for.

[Agent_86]

The head of the local ship is the equivalent to a praying mantis.

Just waiting to snatch her cool $50mil from the deal before running for the hills :mad:

[sandersonpab]

So let me get this straight, Virgin rehires 88 pilots in the middle of our biggest lockdown (training and wages alone is equivalent $6 million) and gives $42 million in shares to Hardlicka and the execs? Sounds like a company in financial dire straights, NOT.

[anonfly]

The other thing to consider - and I speak from experience here, having had my salary compared to a surgeon (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-30/are-train-drivers-in-the-pilbara-the-highest-paid-in-the-world/5029012?nw=0) (and unsurprisingly during EBA negotiations) - is "What will the public think if we go on strike over <X,Y & Z>?"

There's already a belief that Pilots are overpaid bus driver's these days, and rejecting an EBA that offers:
is not going to win anyone any friends except for those already working, or about to start, with VA. The court of public opinion would be well and truly against you, when you consider how many people have lost work, or are out of work due to The Pestilence and you're seen to be turning your nose up at an EBA that will be said to offer a 1st Year FO $150K+ for those kinds of "hours".

I always find the court of public opinion a fascinating argument to not stand up for one self.
The public aren’t the one doing the job.
Weirdly I think right now the public couldn’t care.
Look at the tourism industry, entertainment, cafe, bars, small business owners that have been wiped out. The public doesn’t care. Apparently it’s going gang busters the economy. People have short memories and even shorter attention spans. They only care about themselves. So unless they are directly affected by PIA I think they are happy going about their merrily way.
Also as a pub test ask people what “airline” pilots earn. It’s always way over estimated 9/10. The answers will surprise you.
Management certainly couldn’t give a toss about public opinion. Mandating a 15% cost in “savings” but awarding $42 million in “shares” to the executives?!!! It’s taking from one pocket and putting it in the other.
All EBAs were part of the KPI required for that $42 million in shares to be awarded along with other metrics.
The matter boils down to the fact the pilot body is stuck between a rock and a hard place. No good options but to tread carefully.
Myself I’m still making up my mind. I go from yes to no daily, multiples times per day.

[Agent_86]

Virgin Australia set to stand down staff as lockdowns halt travelBy Nick BonyhadyVirgin Australia is poised to announce a fresh wave of stand downs (https://www.smh.com.au/link/follow-20170101-p58fun) across its workforce as soon as Wednesday as the aviation industry struggles with lockdowns and border closures that have slashed travel around the country.

Several industry sources familiar with Virgin’s thinking, but who were not authorised to speak on the record, said the lockdowns could affect more than 1000 staff at the airline.

https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0.143%2C$multiply_0.4431%2C$ratio_1.5%2C$width_756%2C$ x_0%2C$y_0/t_crop_custom/q_86%2Cf_auto/9d55917020556284f69b9bc7fdd58b0dd9dd3009

A spokeswoman for Virgin Australia said the airline was “consulting with unions to manage the reduced demand in flying and the available hours of work over the next 1-2 months.”

It comes a day after Qantas announced (https://www.smh.com.au/link/follow-20170101-p58fbq) it would stand down about 2500 staff after its flights dropped to 40 per cent of pre-lockdown levels and two days after Deputy Prime Minister Barnaby Joyce unveiled a new domestic support package for the industry.

[SierraZuluGolf]

So now with the extension of the MOU till almost the end of the year surely this gives Virgin all the flexibility they need? Would it be prudent to sign an EA under more realistic market conditions. Like when the state borders are open and theoretically more of the population is vaccinated?

[galdian]

So now with the extension of the MOU till almost the end of the year surely this gives Virgin all the flexibility they need? Would it be prudent to sign an EA under more realistic market conditions. Like when the state borders are open and theoretically more of the population is vaccinated?

Will V3 still be around by the time the intangible timelines of "state borders are open" and "more of the population is vaccinated" become more defined?

Can't imagine Bain heavy honchos being happy about continuing to shovel ****loads of $$$$ into the entity for a very unclear period of time.

[sandersonpab]

So now with the extension of the MOU till almost the end of the year surely this gives Virgin all the flexibility they need? Would it be prudent to sign an EA under more realistic market conditions. Like when the state borders are open and theoretically more of the population is vaccinated?

That's EXACTLY right! So the market conditions improve once the MOU expires and we get shafted with a **** pay and conditions in the EA? They're desperate and are using fear mongering (and spreading misinformation) to brainwash us into thinking we will end up on the award. It's all hogwash and the masses are buying into it, when it's clear they will NEVER succeed trying to terminate the EA. Given we will now be stood down, I say we continue negotiations. Every time we come to negotiate an EA, they take years (to avoid any opportunity of a pay increase) and now they want to negotiate this EA at the speed of light? Come on.

[Tabasco James]

Enormous and unprecedented concessions have already been made by the VA pilot group. This is a game of coconut cups by Bain. Don't be fooled, the devil is in the detail of the proposed EBA. Don't undermine your worth under a falsehood. NO

[SierraZuluGolf]

Will V3 still be around by the time the intangible timelines of "state borders are open" and "more of the population is vaccinated" become more defined?

Can't imagine Bain heavy honchos being happy about continuing to shovel ****loads of $$$$ into the entity for a very unclear period of time.

Probably…..

[mates rates]

Virgin is gearing up to attack a very weak Qantas,watch and see!!

[John Citizen]

Didn't we all hear this many years ago?

And we all know how well that worked out.

Yes looking forward again. Please show us something.

[cynphil]

Virgin is gearing up to attack a very weak Qantas,watch and see!!

Let’s wait for the year end results to be released to see how weak or not Qantas is!!

Also VA’s target is more likely Rex and Jetstar not Qantas mainline!!

[Agent_86]

Virgin is gearing up to attack a very weak Qantas,watch and see!!

How? They have one flight per capital on Trans-Con routes now? Rumoured to be canceling the CNS/PER service that is due to commence this month. Mmmm...

[SHVC]

VA don’t stand a chance against JQ, unless they cut you guys well below our pay level whilst offering the same service for fares similar to ours. QF already has the top end sorted. Which leaves Rex and JQ will sort them out. JQ at the bottom end of market QF at the top end VA in the middle there.

[murder most fowl]

Sandersonpab, certainly no misinformation or fear mongering coming from the no voters is there? :ugh: certainly no extra work for the AFAP on the forum disproving the tripe.

[sandersonpab]

Enormous and unprecedented concessions have already been made by the VA pilot group. This is a game of coconut cups by Bain. Don't be fooled, the devil is in the detail of the proposed EBA. Don't undermine your worth under a falsehood. NO

Absolutely spot on.

[TheGoose21]

Absolutely spot on.

Dont worry Sandersonpab, couple of days and it will all be over and you can stew on it for 3 years.

[ad-astra]

Dont worry Sandersonpab, couple of days and it will all be over and you can stew on it for 3 years.

Yes, and he will also avail himself of all the protections that our hard working (and unpaid) Rep's have achieved in very difficult times.
He won't be complaing when the good times arrive and he can either off load the flying or take the pay rise that this EBA affords
He won't be buying a beer for the Rep's that have worked tirelessly for the last 3 years for our collective futures.
And he won't be thanking the silent majority (hopefully) who voted YES, that ensured he has a job for as long as we can keep this industry on the rails.

[Agent_86]

It is pretty disgusting and disappointing that they are making the Pilots vote on this during this time

Same was done to the CC. That's what Bain are all about :(

[sandersonpab]

Same was done to the CC. That's what Bain are all about :(

The CC situation was very different, but yep that's what they're all about. All those voting in favour of it are the checkies and trainers, as they get a significant pay increase in this EA, of course they're going to be flooding pprune pushing everyone else to vote yes.

[turbantime]

The CC situation was very different, but yep that's what they're all about. All those voting in favour of it are the checkies and trainers, as they get a significant pay increase in this EA, of course they're going to be flooding pprune pushing everyone else to vote yes.
How is it a “significant pay increase”? Only the checkies MCG is higher but even then it is a pay cut (approximately 15-16k p.a.) compared to 2018 EBA. Not to mention they lose days off as well. Nice try trying to drive a wedge between us and them.

However, checkies and trainers lose less than line crew but everyone’s taking a haircut.

[ad-astra]

The CC situation was very different, but yep that's what they're all about. All those voting in favour of it are the checkies and trainers, as they get a significant pay increase in this EA, of course they're going to be flooding pprune pushing everyone else to vote yes.

Not to sure where to start.......

CHECK CAPTAIN previously on $277,750 .............NEW EBA $262,718
SENIOR TRAINING previously on $263,384..............NEW EBA $230,330

MYSELY previously on $$239,440............NEW EBA $200,330

Yes, opportunities to accrue significant overtime, but if you are complaining about pay rises due to overtime then you have lost any credibility you had left.

Perhaps the FACTS don't quite fit with your version of reality.

[Agent_86]

The CC situation was very different.

How so? CC were expected to vote on the EBA only weeks after Bain took over - much of them still on stand-down with very little access to info from the Company - only what the Union Reps were putting up on 'Workplace'.

It was much the same - Bain says like it or find a new role.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Meanwhile, in the US:

https://youtu.be/hCUorBsiw90

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Miss Jayne and her gamesmen don’t live in isolation. They are ACUTELY aware of what’s coming and are very motivated to get a deal signed before vaccine rates are high enough for “normality” to return, probably sometime in the next few months.

I have, and will never vote yes to an agreement, especially one that was negotiated at gunpoint and forced down my throat!

Just my 200 grands worth.

[SilverSleuth]

I have, and will never vote yes to an agreement, especially one that was negotiated at gunpoint and forced down my throat! Just my 200 grands worth.

Completely your right to vote how you like and I completely respect that. Let's just hope you and the rest of the minority play nicely when the 85% odd of your colleagues don't agree with you.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Completely your right to vote how you like and I completely respect that. Let's just hope you and the rest of the minority play nicely when the 85% odd of your colleagues don't agree with you.

I always play nice mate, the enemy are the ones running the duress tactics and living very comfortably on the proceeds.

[murder most fowl]

Where was the Bain hatred during administration? I don't remember any charities trying to buy VA. Any mug would have wanted EBA's sorted quick smart and shock horror, a hair cut. It's business and VA was a bad business.

[Turnleft080]

Just to throw my 5c in gordon, the gun that's pointed at us by the company is a pistol, come Monday 5pm the FWA may come out with a AK-47.
Hopefully no triggers are pulled, we get pistol whipped and we can recover from that.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Just to throw my 5c in gordon, the gun that's pointed at us by the company is a pistol, come Monday 5pm the FWA may come out with a AK-47.
Hopefully no triggers are pulled, we get pistol whipped and we can recover from that.

Well good luck to us all either way. I hope the pistol whipping won’t leave you all softened up so much that you abandon the fight next time around when our services will be at a premium.

[SHVC]

Please explain how voting an EBA down on a high capacity jet operation with a no vote ends up with the employees being put on the award! You VA guys are messed up thinking that can happen.

[turbantime]

Please explain how voting an EBA down on a high capacity jet operation with a no vote ends up with the employees being put on the award! You VA guys are messed up thinking that can happen.
It doesn’t, that’s not the issue and that has been explained. What can happen is that any future offer from the company will be compared against the award, this would most likely be worse than the current offer. Fair work mediation would mean power taken away from negotiators as all company has to do is prove that it’s better than the award.

[SHVC]

VA I’m sure are not at a point where FWA would get involved or even make any kind of determination. Ours has been going for over 3 yrs without FWA even been thought of. You guys have been negotiating for all of 5minutes and think FWA are going to automatically determine an outcome.

[turbantime]

VA I’m sure are not at a point where FWA would get involved or even make any kind of determination. Ours has been going for over 3 yrs without FWA even been thought of. You guys have been negotiating for all of 5minutes and think FWA are going to automatically determine an outcome.
But that negotiation wasn’t after exiting administration or during a pandemic though. Rightly or wrongly, Bain approached FWC after CC vote. The commissioner sounded off a warning to CC. Precedent has been set.

[Colonel_Klink]

VA I’m sure are not at a point where FWA would get involved or even make any kind of determination. Ours has been going for over 3 yrs without FWA even been thought of. You guys have been negotiating for all of 5minutes and think FWA are going to automatically determine an outcome.

So you’re not part of the Virgin Narrow Body operation, but you’re happy to pontificate on what the FWA (sic) will do.

Virgin negotiations have been going on slightly longer than 5 minutes. Since August 2019 in fact.

And maybe we will go with what the AFAP have been saying - considered legal advice and multiple updates on the risks of a No vote.

If you think that Virgin pilots will end up on the award - then you’re as ignorant as those trying to drive a no vote through this rhetoric.

As multiple posters have stated - the threat isn’t the award. It’s the that if any sort of arbitration was to end up at the Fair Work COMMISSION, then they will compare what the Company is offering to the Award. The employees will lose any sort of bargaining power and the deal will almost certainly get worse.

What’s on offer is $200k, 57.5 hours OT trigger and 12/13 days off in 4 weeks.

Some of the other parts of the deal are pretty ordinary. But so is 18 months into a pandemic with no clear end in sight.

So I will take the deal on offer knowing that if I fly 70 hours, I get paid the same, and when things get busy, I’ve got more time off.

[Beer Baron]

I don’t want to turn this into a QF thread (god knows there are enough) but would this not be similar to the QF Long Haul EA that went to a FWC Determination after the lockout?

They did not compare our existing EA with the Award, it was compared against the company’s last offer. The FWC stated that they did not want to drive any major changes, those should only be agreed to by both parties. Instead they took some of the claims of each side and came back with a Determination which was little different from our existing EA.

I ask this as a genuine question, not suggesting I know what would happen. Clearly exiting administration and a new owner make the VA scenario unique.

[Servo]

Either way we will probably know after 5pm tomorrow what the vote result will be. Company will then continue a course of action from there.

[LH777]

Whatever the result I hope all VA guys/girls end up with a good result. Best EBA plus maximum pilots reinstated.

[Double_Clutch]

Reinstating pilots and standing others down?

[Blueskymine]

A fair work arbitration would be a good result. It has to meet the better off overall conditions of the fair work act.

The only way it can reduce your conditions is under the Covid exemption and mutually agreed to by both parties.

To get an arbitration however would be tricky. It took Qantas grounding the airline for it to get to that point. After PIA.

[Blue Ruin]

A fair work arbitration would be a good result. It has to meet the better off overall conditions of the fair work act.

The only way it can reduce your conditions is under the Covid exemption and mutually agreed to by both parties.

To get an arbitration however would be tricky. It took Qantas grounding the airline for it to get to that point. After PIA.

Small problem with that... the Better Off Overall Test is a comparison with the Award not the VA NB Agreement... the last thing VA Pilots or any employee group wants is arbitration or conciliation at Fair Work... especially in present climate.

The Cabin Crew recommendation (https://www.twu.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/commissioner-recommendations.docx) is a sobering read...

[Turnleft080]

Either way we will probably know after 5pm tomorrow what the vote result will be. Company will then continue a course of action from there.
That time has come and gone. 94% participants with 73% in the affirmative.

[SierraZuluGolf]

Yeah perhaps. But the CC with a few concessions took a 2 year pay freeze. Hardly what we are being dealt.

[SierraZuluGolf]

We are so soft. :( Sorry everyone.

[Turnleft080]

That was the participation rate not the count.
Thanks corrected.

[Pastor of Muppets]

Why the comparison to flight attendants?

[SHVC]

Step two if Bains plan has been completed.

[morno]

We are so soft. :( Sorry everyone.

Are they? Or are you just unrealistic?

[SierraZuluGolf]

Unrealistic. Nope.

[VH-ABC]

The majority of your fellow Virgin pilots disagree. You will have to come to terms with that.

[SierraZuluGolf]

Nope I don’t.

[ad-astra]

I think you might have to as the only choice you have is either operate under the new EBA or resign.
That choice is yours!

[gordonfvckingramsay]

I think you might have to as the only choice you have is either operate under the new EBA or resign.
That choice is yours!

Not exactly,

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/55755-i-am-army-one-merged.html

All large companies fail to realise that it’s not the decisions made at the top that can make an organisation prosper.

[SierraZuluGolf]

Exactly Gordon. Exactly. What an own goal we have kicked. We have negotiated a pay cut. While having already negotiated a pay cut. Brilliant!

[SierraZuluGolf]

If I am wrong so be it. I wish the best to us all. Let’s see what happens in 2 years time. Cheers.

[murder most fowl]

Exactly Gordon. Exactly. What an own goal we have kicked. We have negotiated a pay cut. While having already negotiated a pay cut. Brilliant!

Do you expect to be paid 70 hours worth a roster whilst this month probably flying 20 hours if you are lucky?

Have you expected full pay the past 18 months with a company in administration and hardly any flying?

[SierraZuluGolf]

No I don’t. Never said that. Never expected it.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Do you expect to be paid 70 hours worth a roster whilst this month probably flying 20 hours if you are lucky?

Have you expected full pay the past 18 months with a company in administration and hardly any flying?

How long do you think we are going to be flying 20 hours? It seems a bit obtuse to let a horses arse agreement through to cover the pandemic. Now you’ve given it up, it will take decades to get back to where we were.

[murder most fowl]

So if we'll be back up and running at 75 plus hours a roster real soon, hasn't it been shown you'll earn the same money as previous?

Doesn't matter who owns VA, under time was always going to be an issue as were drafts.

[t_cas]

Work smarter, not harder.

[Tubman601]

Convenient they announce today a further reduction in flying hours, the day after the crap EBA is announced.. seriously.
Would the vote have been the same if this was announced on Friday ??

[Servo]

Convenient they announce today a further reduction in flying hours, the day after the crap EBA is announced.. seriously.
Would the vote have been the same if this was announced on Friday ??

Very good question. It certainly would have affected the vote. Whether it would have been enough to change the outcome, who knows. Too late now. Definitely would have been the reason for the delayed communication though.

I am not sure why everyone acts surprised? VA and now Bain have always been like this. If you are not happy (and I am not) then as posted, be an army of 1 and make it known.

Email the Chief Pilot or Senior Base and let them know. CC in the CEO and COO. We achieve nothing on here.

In saying that, I voted yes. I didnt like it one bit, but was trying to be pragmatic about the whole situation. Will I regret it? Maybe.

I hope it doesnt affect the camaraderie in the flight deck. In some cases, that is all we have.

Take care.

[Angle of Attack]

Reduction in flying hours? Lol your living on cloud nine if you think the next 4 months will be nothing but standown, No one is flying and lockdowns will be more common than a beer at the local bowls club. The Scomo induced recession is about to begin, we are 5-6 months behind the rest of the OECD with vaccinations, and while everyone else starts to open up we sit paralysed. It’s actually comical how pathetic we have done. Enjoy stagnation, it might start to improve after Christmas at best.

[turbantime]

Open your eyes sheeple!! The NSW outbreak was orchestrated by Bain to make sure they got their way with the VA pilots!!! Follow the money. It was cargo pilots based in USA, where Bain is based, that infected the limo driver. It worked perfectly in Bain’s favour and now they get to stand everyone down after they got what they wanted!!!!!

[Paragraph377]

Reduction in flying hours? Lol your living on cloud nine if you think the next 4 months will be nothing but standown, No one is flying and lockdowns will be more common than a beer at the local bowls club. The Scomo induced recession is about to begin, we are 5-6 months behind the rest of the OECD with vaccinations, and while everyone else starts to open up we sit paralysed. It’s actually comical how pathetic we have done. Enjoy stagnation, it might start to improve after Christmas at best.

And these idiots in Government have plucked a vaccination figure of 70 or 80% out of their asses. What about ‘delta’? What about the next variant? Everyone gets the shot and then 6 months later it doesn’t work on the new variant and we are back to square one - lockdowns. This crap doesn’t have an end date, yet. The protests will grow louder as more and more people lose their livelihoods, their futures, and their material things. Eventually the Government and all of the melodramatic scaredy cats will have to realise that it kills less than 1% of those it infects, just like flu season. And 80% of the deaths are people over 80, morbidly obese or have other underlying factors.

We are going to start 2022 with this same BS going on. FFS, give people until Dec 31 to get the shot if they want it, after that life returns to effing normal. You catch it, so what. Stay in bed 2 weeks and act responsibly. You choose to roll the dice and not have the shot, well stiff ****. You are responsible for yourself.

Destroying economies is not the answer. Not one politician has lost their job, been stood down, has lost their primary income or lost their home throughout this. Why is that? These slimeballs need to feel the pain that the rest of the country is going through. I hope the protests get bigger because there is strength in numbers. Only the general population has the numbers to end this lunacy and shake these assholes out of their ivory towers. Enough is enough.

[Turnleft080]

And these idiots in Government have plucked a vaccination figure of 70 or 80% out of their asses. What about ‘delta’? What about the next variant? Everyone gets the shot and then 6 months later it doesn’t work on the new variant and we are back to square one - lockdowns. This crap doesn’t have an end date, yet. The protests will grow louder as more and more people lose their livelihoods, their futures, and their material things. Eventually the Government and all of the melodramatic scaredy cats will have to realise that it kills less than 1% of those it infects, just like flu season. And 80% of the deaths are people over 80, morbidly obese or have other underlying factors.

We are going to start 2022 with this same BS going on. FFS, give people until Dec 31 to get the shot if they want it, after that life returns to effing normal. You catch it, so what. Stay in bed 2 weeks and act responsibly. You choose to roll the dice and not have the shot, well stiff ****. You are responsible for yourself.

Destroying economies is not the answer. Not one politician has lost their job, been stood down, has lost their primary income or lost their home throughout this. Why is that? These slimeballs need to feel the pain that the rest of the country is going through. I hope the protests get bigger because there is strength in numbers. Only the general population has the numbers to end this lunacy and shake these assholes out of their ivory towers. Enough is enough.
"HERE HERE" are the echoes in the chamber, or should I say the real world chamber.

[Tibbsy]

Open your eyes sheeple!! The NSW outbreak was orchestrated by Bain to make sure they got their way with the VA pilots!!! Follow the money. It was cargo pilots based in USA, where Bain is based, that infected the limo driver. It worked perfectly in Bain’s favour and now they get to stand everyone down after they got what they wanted!!!!!


errr ummmm, 🤔

[turbantime]

errr ummmm, 🤔
My poor attempt at sarcasm.

[Tibbsy]

By poor attempt at sarcasm.

phew ;) . Recently I found out one of my captain mates was an antivaxxer and conspiracy theorist. Quite disturbing.

[Chris2303]

Only the general population has the numbers to end this lunacy

Absolutely 100% correct. By getting vaccinated, not by civil disobedience