Positive rate....gear up

[Sue Ridgepipe]

Interesting report on Avherald about a Dash 8 400 that took off from Sydney and flew half way to Albury before they realised they'd forgotten to put the gear up. Not having flown the 400, I don't know what indications they may have had, but I would have expected it to be a bit more noisy? And no doubt the increased fuel burn must have been a concern - I wonder if that's how they picked it up, or if someone in the cabin said something?

Incident: Sunstate DH8D at Sydney on Jul 12th 2021, crew did not retract landing gear (http://avherald.com/h?article=4ea9ac51&opt=0)

[smiling monkey]

Interesting report on Avherald about a Dash 8 400 that took off from Sydney and flew half way to Albury before they realised they'd forgotten to put the gear up. Not having flown the 400, I don't know what indications they may have had, but I would have expected it to be a bit more noisy? And no doubt the increased fuel burn must have been a concern - I wonder if that's how they picked it up, or if someone in the cabin said something?

Incident: Sunstate DH8D at Sydney on Jul 12th 2021, crew did not retract landing gear (http://avherald.com/h?article=4ea9ac51&opt=0)

Biggest indication would be a pair of Dunlops hanging outside the passengers' windows!

[Green.Dot]

Biggest indication would be a pair of Dunlops hanging outside the passengers' windows!

Quite amazing, and reassuring the cabin crew were also at the top of their game! [sarcasm] Or maybe in their defence they just did a sector in a BN-2 previously?! :}

[Ladloy]

Biggest indication would be a pair of Dunlops hanging outside the passengers' windows!
no pax to see them

[Foxxster]

with all that drag maybe it came to this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT8CRi9k4bo

[Torukmacto]

Worst case scenario is get to destination and put them up for landing .

[Qanchor]

Similar thing happened recently with a QF 787.
After take-off, gear remained down, aircraft RTB.

Disclaimer: Sorry for thread drift & sorry if mentioned elsewhere

[mmm345]

That was due to the gear pins being left in by the ground engineer, not forgetting to raise them after T/O

[Jetdream]

Is it not the responsibility of the flight crew member doing the walk around to ensure all the gear pins have been removed?

[minigundiplomat]

Right, Sunstate.

Obviously no link whatsoever to the unblemished safety champions of the world?

[compressor stall]

With the stop start nature of rostering and general reduction / lack of currency, we’ll see more of this sort of stuff across the board.

[Qanchor]

That was due to the gear pins being left in by the ground engineer, not forgetting to raise them after T/O

So the engineer inserted the pins after the flight crew did the walk-around?
Doesn't make sense.

[Ollie Onion]

It happens, I investigated an A320 flight were the crew didn’t realise the Gear was still down until they got the over speed warning accelerating through 10,000 ft. Also investigated a engine out departure in the UK were the Gear was left down until the crew noticed a ‘reduced’ climb performance after acceleration. We are all capable of doing these things.

[Lookleft]

Ollie as an investigator you would have tried to ascertain the why it was left down. There are procedures and checklists that are supposed to stop this happening. It is a very basic part of two crew operation so why are two or more pilots missing the basics? It is not that different to setting an incorrect QNH then not bothering to cross check the altimeter. I can accept the COVID and recency argument for something a bit out of left field but not putting the gear up and then completing an After Take-Off checklist seems a bit of a stretch. However if COVID is having this sort of impact then the airlines need to be taking note and proactively put some non-punitive HR resources to help anyone struggling. Unfortunately the airlines and the regulators put all the onus on the individual.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

It happened because they said "positive Rate", they should have said "positive Climb", then it would have all been good.

[ACMS]

It’s happened in the Sim quite a few times ( not to the same person I’ll add !! )
In some cases not picked up until the call for gear down on approach, lots of confused looking faces and a check Captain writing lots of notes for the debrief…..

[neville_nobody]

The problem here will be the SA of the crew. Anyone can take off with the gear out but the fact it took so long to realise, including doing the After Take-off checks will be the issue. I still can't fathom how you wouldn't notice the large gear lever with three green lights right in front of you. What was the FO looking at during the climb?

[MickG0105]

What would the noise be like fanging along with the gear still down?

[Car RAMROD]

The problem here will be the SA of the crew. Anyone can take off with the gear out but the fact it took so long to realise, including doing the After Take-off checks will be the issue. I still can't fathom how you wouldn't notice the large gear lever with three green lights right in front of you. What was the FO looking at during the climb?


NOT saying it’s the case in this incident; but I’m sure we’ve all flown with people who just read the checklist, expecting that the items are done, rather than checking they’ve been done.

I fly with one person in particular who does this with the after takeoff checklist. I have seen them look (and I do reckon they’ve looked at the item), but they then just literally read the checklist off. . . . . Not they way it’s meant to be done.

I hide my smile after I call “negative” to items they say they’ve done but have actually missed. And it’s more than once with this old boy!

[TukwillaFlyboy]

It happened because they said "positive Rate", they should have said "positive Climb", then it would have all been good.

Standard Boeing call is “positive rate”

[Lead Balloon]

This is what's wrong with general aviation in Australia. All the pilots flying around without a proper understanding of the performance of the aircraft they're flying, or the purpose of checklist items and how to identify if the item is satisfied.

Wouldn't happen in airline operations. All those rules and surveillance by the regulator.

[noclue]

At least they had enough fuel this time.
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2021/aair/ao-2021-002/

Checklist response, “up, no lights.” What exactly was checked before providing the response?

[ManillaChillaDilla]

Checklist response, “up, no lights.” What exactly was checked before providing the response?[/QUOTE]

Mobile phone reception and facebook likes?

MCD

[wondrousbitofrough]

Gents, I hate to spoil the party, but I think you'll find its someone else's job to look at the circumstances and mitigating factors when they're presented to them. Not ours.

[PW1830]

Look, Learn and move on. If you think it couldn't be you................

[hoopdreams]

I forgot to retract the gear in a light twin. Was an early morning departure, and wasn’t feeling my sharpest. It’s amazing how strong confirmation bias can be when you’re convinced you’ve carried out the action. Tower noticed and notified approach, then notified me.

[Qwark]

I think its easier ( and more common) than most realise to miss a task such as gear retraction. A distraction just at the right time is enough. Standard callouts / responses to checklists are all too often spoken without the appropriate confirmation.

Humans are not great at identifying errors in common tasks. We usually do better at solving unusual problems, which is why we still have a job!

[StudentInDebt]

It happens, I ift. Also investigated a engine out departure in the UK were the Gear was left down until the crew noticed a ‘reduced’ climb performance after acceleration. We are all capable of doing these things.wasn’t out of east mids was it?

[rmcdonal]

What would the noise be like fanging along with the gear still down?
I ferried one once back to Sydney from an outstation with the gear down. I don't recall the noise too much as we had good noise cancelling headsets, but it was fairly rough, like driving on a dirt road it just shakes a whole lot once you get a little speed up.

[MickG0105]

I ferried one once back to Sydney from an outstation with the gear down. I don't recall the noise too much as we had good noise cancelling headsets, but it was fairly rough, like driving on a dirt road it just shakes a whole lot once you get a little speed up.
Thank you for that. Being pegged to Vle would have made for a somewhat longer trip I'm guessing.

[island_airphoto]

It happened to me :uhoh:
The alternator tripped off and the hydraulic pump couldn't manage getting the gear up on battery. Also the alternator warning light was not working. We were wondering why the plane was so slow until we did some checking. Moving the gear handle up only managed to budge the gear just enough to have the green lights go out.

[compressor stall]

I'll put my hand up for missing it on a go around in the sim. Multiple distractions at the GA, complex GA procedure, no Positive Climb call from PM. Wondering why it wasn't climbing well once things calmed down. D'Oh..... Lesson learnt.

[redsnail]

Yep, I did something similar a few months ago with the flap. Neither of us super current, early morning, distracted by an ATC call.
Confirmation bias convinced us both they were up with the checklist, a moment later during a moment of quiet on the radio, good look around, there they were, still at take off position. Fortunately, no overspeed, raised them up... and took things carefully from then on.

[Jack D]

Standard Boeing call is “positive rate”

no not really ! Do you know why ?

[C441]

Is it not the responsibility of the flight crew member doing the walk around to ensure all the gear pins have been removed?
In most airlines it's a joint responsibility between the pilot and the engineer to ensure the pins are removed before departure. However I would suggest that very few pilots would actually physically pull the pins out as this would (arguably) be a breach of an SoPs that prevent the pins being pulled by other than an engineer when they are actually required to be installed (eg. for maintenance action).

I haven't read the report closely, but I'm sure fatigue would be considered as a factor. It doesn't have to be the middle of the night to be fatigued…...

[Jack D]

Posts 25, 27 and 31 are noteworthy, plus one or two others , otherwise I fear for the future of so called professional aviators ! Only my personal opinion of course.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Tukwilla - Thanks for that, but I did know that. I was attempting to be this thing called "humorous". (By the way it wasn't a Boeing aircraft).

[H Peacock]

“Positive rate”, so much better at rolling off the tongue than “Positive climb”. And as for “Light off” rather than “Light up”! 😡

Anyway, surely the ‘crime’ here was not checking the gear was Up in the After Take-off check, not the fact that it wasn’t initially selected Up.

[TukwillaFlyboy]

Tukwilla - Thanks for that, but I did know that. I was attempting to be this thing called "humorous". (By the way it wasn't a Boeing aircraft).

My memory is that Boeing did own De Havilland for a while.
Either way , there has been an effort to standardise calls across the group.
Makes it easier when Pilots move across.

[Near Miss]

I'm obviously not worthy of being in the company of the Gods on this forum, as I too have missed putting the gear up.

It was a long time ago, so the details and systems knowledge are no longer as clear as they once were. I do remember it was the first flight of the day after a min rest overnight, with a 0630 departure. Also that it was day four or five of multi sector days. I was PM, and as the captain called for gear up I got distracted by the master warning. I had forgotten to turn off the APU after start (we usually use ground power) and the APU wasn't certified for use in flight. So I cancelled the warning and shut down the APU, forgetting all about the gear. Fortunately I picked it up in the checklist.

As for the noise, compared to those props, it was nothing. The aircraft I'm on now has you to leaving the gear down after takeoff if there is a brake deactivated. For those couple of minutes we keep the speed to around 220/230 kts because it is LOUD!

​​​​​​Mistakes happen.

[Roj approved]

In most airlines it's a joint responsibility between the pilot and the engineer to ensure the pins are removed before departure. However I would suggest that very few pilots would actually physically pull the pins out as this would (arguably) be a breach of an SoPs that prevent the pins being pulled by other than an engineer when they are actually required to be installed (eg. for maintenance action).

I haven't read the report closely, but I'm sure fatigue would be considered as a factor. It doesn't have to be the middle of the night to be fatigued…...

Not sure if this was relevant to the QF787, but the with the 787, Boeing departed from some tried and true setup with the gear pins.

It has 5 gear pins instead of the usual 3, there have been a few instances of the 2 upper ones on the main gear still in place on a walk around, or later.

They are stored in the Avionics bay, not the cockpit, so you can’t confirm by any visual means.

The 2 holes next to each other on the nose gear that seems to be the cause of the BA 787 nose gear collapse.

It is always the PIC’s responsibility that the gear pins are removed, unfortunately there is the odd case were the system fails.

[PoppaJo]

I learnt in the early days in the left, not to rely on the FO to help me through a GA. I sit next to a mix however largely very young and inexperienced, too many times has startle effect come into play and it just becomes a mess. I sort of plan if it happens or I see the GA coming, I’m on my own. I do get worried when some of these people who cannot manage a GA with me in the past are now sitting in the same seat as me.

It goes both ways though. You have those in the left who are constantly carried (ffs just retire) by those poor people in the right. That played out in my mob, was a major screwup on departure. Going forward we will see more FOs gaining employment that had been ex left with significant experience, usually more than the person they sit next to. Things become too relaxed and things get missed. Tiger demonstrated that quite well out of Sydney once.

[Brakerider]

The PIC was one of the most experienced in the company, and an all round good operator. I think the serious mental stress the current situation is putting on all pilots must be considered.

[Going Nowhere]

The PIC was one of the most experienced in the company, and an all round good operator. I think the serious mental stress the current situation is putting on all pilots must be considered.

definitely a consideration.

Something I've learnt is to never miss an opportunity to run your eyes over the flight deck. Even in busier times such as below transition, there's always 5 or 10 seconds to have a glance over switches or items that you may have missed even if those things have just been covered in a checklist.

The other thing I do for some items is a form of the Japanese practice of Pointing and Calling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_and_calling)

Gear, flap, Auto feather, passenger signs and other critical items, I'll always point at and call out what I see.

Those two things have picked up a few missed items over the years.

Poor bastards though. These days it could've been any of us.

[Lookleft]

Poor bastards though. These days it could've been any of us.

I agree that any one of us has the potential to forget to do something like raising (or lowering) the gear, leaving the speedbrake out or any other task that is part of the everyday of airline flying. The professionalism of the job means that there are two pilots and the checklist is not a bedtime story but a confirmation that an action has been done or not done. Mistakes, or errors are always made but they should be caught by individual pilots cross checking the actions of the other. The consequences can be catastrophic such as not putting the gear down (PIA), not setting the bleed switches properly (Helios).To just dismiss it as "@#t happens" suggests a misunderstanding of why two pilots are needed.

Something I've learnt is to never miss an opportunity to run your eyes over the flight deck. Even in busier times such as below transition, there's always 5 or 10 seconds to have a glance over switches or items that you may have missed even if those things have just been covered in a checklist.

That right there is a get out of gaol free bit of advice.

[FullWings]

I’ve done it from a GA. Strong tailwind on the approach, so had the gear out with an intermediate flap setting. ATC told us to break off at about 2,500’ so gentle climb back up to the MAA of 3,000’. There was heavy rain so it had been relatively noisy on the FD, and it wasn’t until after we levelled off we noticed the gear was still out.

Contributory factors were probably a) not using TO/GA but V/S, which didn’t put us mentally in GA mode, and b) discontinuing the approach rather than saying “go-around”, which would have primed subsequent responses and actions. Also, we were at an unusual height and configuration for a GA, so there wasn’t much learnt behaviour to fall back on. No harm done and something else to go in the experience bucket...

[megan]

NASA made a study of errors made on the flight decks of airline operations. Of 60 flights observed eight hundred ninety-nine deviations were observed (194 in checklist use, 391 in monitoring, and 314 in primary procedures).

The captain was flying on 37 of the 60 flights and the first officer on the other 23.

The executive summary.Checklists and monitoring are two essential defenses against equipment failures and pilot errors. Problems with checklist use and pilots’ failures to monitor adequately have a long history in aviation accidents.

A typical airline flight requires a great number of routine flight control inputs and switch actions and frequent reading and verification of visual displays. Many of these actions are governed by formal procedures specifying the sequence and manner of execution, after which checklists are used to bolster reliability. Throughout the flight, pilots are required to monitor many functions, the state of aircraft systems, aircraft configuration, flight path, and the actions of the other pilot in the cockpit. Thus, the number of opportunities for error is enormous, especially on challenging flights, and many of those opportunities are associated with checklists and monitoring—themselves safeguards designed to protect against error.

Our study was conducted to explore why checklists and monitoring sometimes fail to catch errors and equipment malfunctions as intended. In particular, we wanted to: 1) collect data on monitoring and checklist use in cockpit operations in typical flight conditions; 2) provide a plausible cognitive account of why deviations from formal checklist and monitoring procedures sometimes occur; 3) lay a foundation for identifying ways to reduce vulnerability to inadvertent checklist and monitoring errors; 4) compare checklist and monitoring execution in normal flights with performance issues uncovered in accident investigations; and 5) suggest ways to improve the effectiveness of checklists and monitoring.https://human-factors.arc.nasa.gov/publications/NASA-TM-2010-216396.pdf

Had a personal issue with the gear during training, instructor had me demonstrate slow flight (gear, flaps, speed brake) and then asked for a penetration. Nosed over for the penetration and wondered why the aircraft wouldn't accelerate to penetration speed with the aircraft in a seemingly vertical dive. Yes, things left hanging in the breeze, didn't even get to exceed any flap or gear limit speeds. :ugh:

[deja vu]

I don't know about the 787 but Airbus (A330 at least) had a little storage area for the gear pins and their flags, perspex door allowed both pilots to screw their heads around and see them when the checklist called for "gear pins and covers" There were 3 slots so pilots could see them all individually when fitted as designed. More often than not the engineers would just wrap them together and force the wad into the box and so needed to be sorted by the pilots.
Never forgot to bring the gear up but........ I thought it would not be possible to forget to put it down as the slippery twin I was flying could not be slowed to approach speeds without gear.....wrong!

.

[compressor stall]

More often than not the engineers would just wrap them together and force the wad into the box and so needed to be sorted by the pilots.
The sign of a good old school engineer is when they roll the flags around the pins then put them in the cubby, leaving one inch of each of the tails poking out under the door.

[Lookleft]

I thought it would not be possible to forget to put it down as the slippery twin I was flying could not be slowed to approach speeds without gear.....wrong!

Wasn't an Aerostar by any chance?

[Wirbelsturm]

Been there as well,

When on a check ride for my CPL, many, many moons ago, with an infamously pedantic scottish examiner, who was ex RAF javelins, I forgot to raise the gear on my missed approach from a PFL.
Said examiner was looking out of the window pointing out where his wife was born as I struggled to understand why the climb rate was so poor! A glance at the gear indicator revealed a smugly glowing set of three greens.

After raising the gear, dramatically improving the normally spectacularly poor climb performance of the Arrow, the infamously pedantic examiner looked over at me, smiled and winked!

Proper examiner, I learnt from that!

No one is perfect and we all make mistakes IMVHO.

ATB

[TURIN]

Not sure if this was relevant to the QF787, but the with the 787, Boeing departed from some tried and true setup with the gear pins.

It has 5 gear pins instead of the usual 3, there have been a few instances of the 2 upper ones on the main gear still in place on a walk around, or later.

They are stored in the Avionics bay, not the cockpit, so you can’t confirm by any visual means.

The 2 holes next to each other on the nose gear that seems to be the cause of the BA 787 nose gear collapse.

It is always the PIC’s responsibility that the gear pins are removed, unfortunately there is the odd case were the system fails.
The 767 also has five pins in a similar arrangement to the 787, and yes it has caused issues from the inexperienced who were used to the good old three pin system.
The storage box for gear pins is a customer fit. Some in the flt deck, some in the fwd elec bay.
The practice of a log entry, mandated by some airlines, has alleviated the problem to some extent.

I too like the Japanese shiso kanko method.