RAF Fast Jets To Practice Dispersal Off MOBs

[RAFEngO74to09]

Russia Threat Could See U.K. Fighter Jets Operating From Highways Once Again (thedrive.com) (https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/41634/russia-threat-could-see-u-k-fighter-jets-operating-from-highways-once-again)

CAS has announced there will be no-notice exercises for this.

A lot of preparation is going to be needed in terms of planning / resourcing how all the required GSE and drill weapons for re-arms gets moved to multiple locations at once, how a limited pool of aircraft spares is split between locations and moved, what comms SEngO / JEngOs will be provided with to keep a grip on what is going on etc.

[typerated]

Surely this sort of training is just synthetic?

[RAFEngO74to09]

I suspect CAS's recent meeting with CSAF (USAF) has a part in this - where the USAF's Agile Combat Employment initiative as part of #acceleratechangeorloose was likely mentioned.

The recent "all eggs in one basket with one runway" situation at Brize Norton will have reinforced it.

[NutLoose]

He obviously does not read what’s happening in the world, I wish him luck.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9786727/Motorways-fitted-overhead-electric-wires-charge-eTrucks-move.html


Plus on top of that the Government insist on building all those overhead concrete monstrosities for smart motorways etc, why they never legislated that cars must be able to transmit it to the drivers by xyz.. so you will be trying to land through overhead cables and overhead gantries… the Jag only had to struggle to find a straight bit of road without a bridge over it.

What you need is a fighter that has rough field capability like the Jag or the Harrier, both of which we binned, I’d hate to think how an F35 will standup to sitting in a lay-by.


​​​​​​…

[SASless]

Nutty,

The Jag needed a runway the length of the M-1 from one end to the other as I seem to recall.

[OldLurker]

There's quite a lot of motorway that isn't 'smart' or planned to be so, and quite a lot of other possible road that could be used - it may not even have to be dual-carriageway, depending on the aircraft. But it's not as easy as 'let's land there' in a once-off trial. For practical use you'd need to prepare and build in facilities on the ground, as was done in Germany, so as to be able to adapt to sustained operation.

Does anyone know whether any bits of road in the UK have been designated as potential sites? As a casual driver-around-the-UK, not many roads seem to me to be straight enough or flat enough!

[Koan]

He obviously does not read what’s happening in the world, I wish him luck.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9786727/Motorways-fitted-overhead-electric-wires-charge-eTrucks-move.html


Plus on top of that the Government insist on building all those overhead concrete monstrosities for smart motorways etc, why they never legislated that cars must be able to transmit it to the drivers by xyz.. so you will be trying to land through overhead cables and overhead gantries… the Jag only had to struggle to find a straight bit of road without a bridge over it.

What you need is a fighter that has rough field capability like the Jag or the Harrier, both of which we binned, I’d hate to think how an F35 will standup to sitting in a lay-by.


​​​​​​…
F35 exhaust heat profile has been a problem for the USN probably burn holes in motorways with major FOD issues.

[Mogwi]

Jumping bean needed 650ft x 28ft plus a barn or two to hide in - most Tesco car parks would do, with hides in the drinks section. Good luck with the present generation of FJ.

Mog

[Asturias56]

"F35 exhaust heat profile has been a problem for the USN probably burn holes in motorways with major FOD issues."

Given the deteriorating surface on most UK roads who would notice the difference?

[Dominator2]

To start with why not look at Joint User (Civilian/Mil) airfields with Fast Jets, especially Air Defence assets deployed across a number of airfields. You could call them Middleton St George and Horsham St Faith for example. The French have done this since 911 to great effect. It needs a new mindset.

There could be Sqn Ldrs in charge of a deployed flight of 6 aircraft, imagine the responsibility, and trust required.

This is of course a large aircraft problem as well. Take out Brize and where would the RAF/Army be with no AT or AAR? Again, it needs a radical rethink.

This problem is far greater than the successors to the Jaguar and Harrier doing press-ups on the M56 or an Autobahn in Europe.

[Krystal n chips]

At long last ..the M6 Toll may actually have a use !

[treadigraph]

Finding roads unencumbered by potholes would be a challenge around these parts...

[chevvron]

Does anyone know whether any bits of road in the UK have been designated as potential sites? As a casual driver-around-the-UK, not many roads seem to me to be straight enough or flat enough!
There's rumoured to be one on the A1 about 2 or 3 miles north of Woolfox Lodge disused airfield; fairly straight with taxiway leadon/offs which appear never to have been fully completed, otherwise you could always take a look at Cyprus for examples (x3).

[Stationair8]

Not to mention roundabouts, bike lanes, signs, speed humps, traffic calming measures etc.

Imagine the local country copper pulling over the F35 driver for speeding, insufficient tread on the tyres, excessive noise and displaying a MOT certificate!

The local council OH&S people would get a whiff of that Jet fuel and have a field day.

[downsizer]

This realistically means dispersal at civvy (and probably ex RAF) airfields. You lot are getting hung up on roads, which isn't likely.

Think Stornoway, West Fruegh, Finningley, that kind of place.

[NutLoose]

F35 exhaust heat profile has been a problem for the USN probably burn holes in motorways with major FOD issues.


Not a problem with the UK roads, ours come prebuilt with potholes already installed.

[NutLoose]

To start with why not look at Joint User (Civilian/Mil) airfields with Fast Jets, especially Air Defence assets deployed across a number of airfields. You could call them Middleton St George and Horsham St Faith for example. The French have done this since 911 to great effect. It needs a new mindset.

T

What, like Aldergrove used to be?

[ancientaviator62]

mogwi,
you owe me a new keyboard. The bit about hiding in the drinks section of Tesco was priceless and caused me to spill my coffee. Worth it though.

[ETOPS]

Does anyone know whether any bits of road in the UK have been designated as potential sites?

I've spotted a few over the years. Best example is the A74(M) north of Lockerbie - next to the Lockerbie lorry park at Hanginshaw.
From the farm bridge at the south end to the start of the gentle right curve at the north is 2200m or 7200 feet with no obstructions and an easily demountable central wire barrier...........

[vascodegama]

The M5 between J12 and 13 is somewhat wider than average and was allegedly the runway of the (now long gone) airfield just south of Glos. Mind you can you imagine the chaos if part of the motorway system was not available for its primary use for even a day or so.

[NutLoose]

Come the first hint of war one would assume the motorway system would grind to a halt full of people fleeing to parents / middle of nowhere etc... the best place to disperse them to would be Germany, so as to be closer to the front, shame they are demolishing all those lovely airbases we had out there, the other advantage is you would be fighting your rapidly intensifying war in someone else's playground. ;)

[sandiego89]

F35 exhaust heat profile has been a problem for the USN probably burn holes in motorways with major FOD issues.

I believe the US Navy F-35 deck heat issues are with the B on vertical landings on ships. I would imagine STOL would be the profile for roadway takeoff and landings to reduce thermal and FOD hazards.

[Davef68]

I've spotted a few over the years. Best example is the A74(M) north of Lockerbie - next to the Lockerbie lorry park at Hanginshaw.
From the farm bridge at the south end to the start of the gentle right curve at the north is 2200m or 7200 feet with no obstructions and an easily demountable central wire barrier...........

M8 west of Glasgow follows the line of the old Renfrew Airport main runway, although there is a block of flats at the western end. It's about 2000m on the straight bit.

There are one or two others, but generally they don't design straight bits of motorway as it stops drivers falling asleep!

[Dunhovrin]

…most Tesco car parks would do, with hides in the drinks section..
Every VIFFle helps?

[N707ZS]

Have we got enough groundcrew and equipment to disperse to these places or is it going to be an extra bung to the AA or Green Flag.

[trim it out]

Has anybody told the Regiment about this new expeditionary warfare tactic? I'm sure we could just get the Army Reserve back in to do the FP if necessary :E

[bobward]

We'll be alright in Norfolk then. No bl**dy motorways anywhere here....

[dctyke]

Simple question, where are all the logistics and manpower coming from? And as for closing a major road at no notice………. At best it will be watered down to all using the same airfield with, at best, a road painted on the runway and a few road signs.

[br9mp81]

Good luck with fire cover,for one Capita have sacked/sacking most of the ex CS firefighters,and second i bet it was not in the contract so capita will charge for it.

[FlapJackMuncher]

There's rumoured to be one on the A1 about 2 or 3 miles north of Woolfox Lodge disused airfield; fairly straight with taxiway leadon/offs which appear never to have been fully completed, otherwise you could always take a look at Cyprus for examples (x3).Or just turn West at Woolfox. Still a large bit of tarmac. Might have to move a few green trucks though.

[Asturias56]

"There's rumoured to be one on the A1 about 2 or 3 miles north of Woolfox Lodge disused airfield;"

quite a few trees along the central reservation there

[trim it out]

"There's rumoured to be one on the A1 about 2 or 3 miles north of Woolfox Lodge disused airfield;"

quite a few trees along the central reservation there
I know environmental conservation is fashionable at the moment, but I'm sure in a time of war, or training for, there wouldn't be much thought given to leveling any obstructions such as trees in order to facilitate ops.

[Firestreak]

The next time you land at Changi, have a good look out of the taxi window as you set off down the East Coast Parkway into town. A good long straight stretch, central reservation easily removable flower boxes, lamp posts not solid but screwed down to the ground, a few easily moved trees=an emergency runway.

There seems to be a similar straight stretch of road just to the west of Tengah and a possible but short stretch by Paya Lebar. Mind you, may not be needed with the F35B on order.

[treadigraph]

Every VIFFle helps?

Or "Every Lidl helps"...

[Duchess_Driver]

At long last ..the M6 Toll may actually have a use !

At the price they charge, even off peak, we couldn’t afford it!

I’m sure now that FlyBe/Stobart/et al there would be plenty of room at most of the regional airports. I’m sure they’d welcome the business.

Out of interest, anybody remember when we last practiced this?

[langleybaston]

Deja vu or what?

In V Force days we had c. 40 sites for 4 aircraft each, I seem to remember.

Proper runways, and lots of them.

[RAFEngO74to09]

The article - originally in The Telegraph - got ahead of itself by jumping on the old Jaguar video and The Drive went along with it.

Clearly any dispersal is going to be to former military airfields - attempting to be as covert as possible with a minimum visible footprint - or civilian airfields.

I was the Project Officer the last time this was tried - 2 x Tornado GR1 in a simulated nuclear strike role - landed at dusk on a non-flying unit then in current military ownership - shut down on the waterfront in front of a vacant 1930s hangar - towed in rapidly - with tractor and parallel GSE towing attachment (as used for 2 in a HAS).

Held at RS15 using a secure comms briefcase that converted a BT phone into a secure one.

From release, was able to tow aircraft to waterfront with APU (with containment mod fitted) started inside hangar, start and get airborne well within 15 minutes.

However, although all trades coverage was achieved within the 2 x 3-man launch teams, this would have been for diagnosis of any snags only - no spares on site.

My conclusion was that you could completely disperse the UK-based Tornado GR1 Strike Force but to make it work properly you would need a new-buy logistics tail of C4I box bodies, 4-ton trucks, 5-ton trailers to put GSE on (like the Harrier Force did) and a larger spares pool - clearly unaffordable.

[George Richardson]

Linton, A168 parallel to rwy 34 at Dishforth, Church Fenton or Elvington to name a few Yorkshire possibilities.

[NutLoose]

Jumping bean needed 650ft x 28ft plus a barn or two to hide in - most Tesco car parks would do, with hides in the drinks section. Good luck with the present generation of FJ.

Mog

Why on earth pick Tesco when could have a nice Sainsburys or Marks and Spencer... I've had a look on the map but I think Fortnum and Masons or Harrods would provide to many obstacles to flying for the defence of London and then there is the surcharge to consider...

You would be better choosing a largish shopping centre, food stores, alcohol stores, clothing stores, TV and electrical stores and a bedding store for accomodation, plus public toilets.


..

[SLXOwft]

Simple question, where are all the logistics and manpower coming from? And as for closing a major road at no notice………. At best it will be watered down to all using the same airfield with, at best, a road painted on the runway and a few road signs.

If they go to Leconfield there's even a roundabout and pongoes for FP. Which leads me to Chivenor with a higher class of FP available. Are the Brawdy runways still serviceable? Wattisham with Apaches to provide flying FP. If they hadn't dug the Boulmer runways up 19 and 20 Sqns. could temporarily adopt the aircraft. How about Honington - close to Marham and the Rocks could save on diesel. As for dispersal from Coningsby - may be they'll have to keep an airfield somewhere in the vicinity of Lincoln open after all. Just had an even madder thought - Thorney Island then I could go and watch the junior services play together.:p The heat is getting to me...

I suspect the reality will be Leeming, Leuchars, and ISK.

[NoelEvans]

Linton, A168 parallel to rwy 34 at Dishforth, Church Fenton or Elvington to name a few Yorkshire possibilities.
I was about to mention Elvington.

For 'Church Fenton' you now mean 'Leeds East'?? There are quite a few containers and things parked up on their longer runway.

However, there are still Doncaster "Robin Hood" (Finningley), Humberside and Tess-side as active airports... or Leeds-Bradford if you want to shake your teeth out!

[sir]

Linton, A168 parallel to rwy 34 at Dishforth, Church Fenton or Elvington to name a few Yorkshire possibilities.

oh yes please (as a close neighbour of Elvington) - give us a bit of action !

[Paying Guest]

Deja vu or what?

In V Force days we had c. 40 sites for 4 aircraft each, I seem to remember.

.....and in 2ATAF we had all those autobahn strips scattered across (West) Germany. Drove across quite a few of them on the A1 a year or so pre-Covid and they still looked viable.

[Top West 50]

.....and in 2ATAF we had all those autobahn strips scattered across (West) Germany. Drove across quite a few of them on the A1 a year or so pre-Covid and they still looked viable.
I think there were 29 of them

[Ninthace]

We'll be alright in Norfolk then. No bl**dy motorways anywhere here....
For many years, Norwich was the only city I knew that was at the end of a lane. At least its been dualled now.

[air pig]

Please please please do something at Woodvale even if it's only a couple of Typhoon rollers prior to dispersing to Liverpool as the locals are becoming anti-forces bitching and moaning about the Chinooks using the army base at Atlcar just down the road for a week a couple of times a year. RAuxAF (611 Squadron) unit there for force protection purposes.

[Out Of Trim]

For fighters:

Leuchars
Wattisham
Leeming
Honington
Upper Heyford
Bentwaters
Boscombe Down

For starters, all with million pound garages. (HAS Sites)!

Manston
Brawdy
Chivenor
St Mawgan
Yeovilton
Culdrose
Northolt
Biggin Hill
Shawbury
Valley
Stornoway

Other types to Civil Airports… 👍

[Asturias56]

The question of support always raises it's ugly head with off base operations

I suppose the question is how long do they think a war in Europe requiring dispersal would last?

And how many aircraft despatched will return on Day 1??

[LateArmLive]

The question of support always raises it's ugly head with off base operations

I suppose the question is how long do they think a war in Europe requiring dispersal would last?

And how many aircraft despatched will return on Day 1??

Dispersed Ops only "guarantees" you a Day 2. After that, well...

[dctyke]

Dispersed Ops only "guarantees" you a Day 2. After that, well...

assuming they fly to the dispersal with weapons fitted then day two you are into dispersed weapons and ground equipment which won’t be such an easy exercise at no notice.

[Asturias56]

Well it's either this or Amazon Prime I guess.....................

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/713x406/2021_07_23_101545_4da9ac8a7833e2ea2859ed2fa1dffade602e5204.j pg

[wiggy]

The next time you land at Changi, have a good look out of the taxi window as you set off down the East Coast Parkway into town. A good long straight stretch, central reservation easily removable flower boxes, lamp posts not solid but screwed down to the ground, a few easily moved trees=an emergency runway.
.

True enough, but I found sharing that fascinating fact :bored:with the youngsters on the crew bus in recent years generally got met with a “yeah, whatever grandad”…and eyes never looked up from smartphones…..

[Whenurhappy]

The disposal of Lyneham was complicated for a number of reasons. Firstly, it had been two airfields (one a flying training station - run by Marshalls, I think - the landing ground was the large oval sports field) and then it was expanded to become a Transport Command station. Some of the land for the former station had been purchased conventionally by the Air Ministry before the war (around 'New Zealand' farm) whereas most of the rest of it had been compulsorily requisitioned under Emergency Regulations, including part of Bradenstoke and the remains of the Cistercian Monastery. Added to that, the site was an Aircraft Storage Unit ( all the Lammelerdach hangars) as well (later 27(?) MU) . There was extensive contamination by POL and radium from aircraft dials. As with most other sites, there was an expectation that ammunition would also be found. The compulsorily purchased land had to be offered back to the original owners (or descendants) at the unimproved value whereas the land around NZ (Officers' Mess, sports field, Rubb Hangar, 47 Sqn HQ etc) could be sold at commercial rates. However, the cost of remediating the whole site potentially exceed the net worth; by comparison the huge POL depot at Rosyth was sold 20 years ago for £9M and the buyers were paid a further £12M to remediate it...

A year or two after the RAF moved out, we drove by and went to see our first-ever quarter, on Muscovey Close. I really wish we hadn't. Looking through the window, there must have been a roof leak, and in the middle of the sitting room, mushrooms were growing out of the carpet and the patio doors were off their runners, and the lovely rear garden was chest deep in weeds.

On the issue of strategic vulnerability, this as raised many times during the Future Basing study but dismissed as 'unaffordable' and 'out-dated thinking' bearing in mind we were being very expeditionary at the time - Balkans, Afghanistan, Iraq...

[vascodegama]

It is just as well that our opponents didn’t have any outdated ideas. Even a half -hearted counter air effort would have caused chaos on the crowded airfields of ,say, Italy.

[Asturias56]

WUH - is that post in the correct thread? looks like it should be in Why didn't they keep Lyneham open?

[Whenurhappy]

WUH - is that post in the correct thread? looks like it should be in Why didn't they keep Lyneham open?
It was in relation to concentrating everything at BZZ, and answering an earlier question about why was Lyneham kept open, albeit not as an RAF station.

[tubby linton]

At the price they charge, even off peak, we couldn’t afford it!

I’m sure now that FlyBe/Stobart/et al there would be plenty of room at most of the regional airports. I’m sure they’d welcome the business.

Out of interest, anybody remember when we last practiced this?
Have you seen how many aircraft are currently parked at airfields all over the country due to Covid? Parking is at a premium at many of them

[ex-fast-jets]

We were quite good at off-base Ops in the good old Harrier days - "1"s in TACEVAL across the board pretty much says it all.

But do those now in charge have any idea of the support tail that we had in those good old "Cold War" days?

The Harrier was a relatively simple aircraft to operate and maintain. OK - a field engine change was a real pain in the A** - but otherwise it seemed to enjoy the environment and felt that it was at home. It even did well - perhaps better than some (or most) expected at absorbing Argentinian bullets. But we only had relatively simple weapons - no sophisticated clever weapons.

I also did get to fly the Jaguar onto and from an Autobahn not far from Ramstein - but that was a simple on/off exercise. No lengthy operation to include weapons.

So - great idea - let's re-invent the wheel and disperse aircraft from our now rather minimal number of MOB's - but can we actually operate from those locations, or is it a cosmetic and political Magnolia (nothing wrong with Magnolia!) cover-up? And where is the support?

[Ninthace]

We were quite good at off-base Ops in the good old Harrier days - "1"s in TACEVAL across the board pretty much says it all.

But do those now in charge have any idea of the support tail that we had in those good old "Cold War" days?

The Harrier was a relatively simple aircraft to operate and maintain. OK - a field engine change was a real pain in the A** - but otherwise it seemed to enjoy the environment and felt that it was at home. It even did well - perhaps better than some (or most) expected at absorbing Argentinian bullets. But we only had relatively simple weapons - no sophisticated clever weapons.

I did get to fly the Jaguar onto and from an Autobahn not far from Ramstein - but that was a simple on/off exercise. No lengthy operation to include weapons.

So - great idea - let's re-invent the wheel and disperse aircraft from our now rather minimal number of MOB's - but can we actually operate from those locations, or is it a cosmetic and political Magnolia (nothing wrong with Magnolia!) cover-up? And where is the support?
I remember the good old days of Gutersloh and the sheer volume of MT needed to roll the support convoys. It might be instructive for someone to do the sums and work out just how much more kit groups of deployed aircraft will need as compared to being on an MOB where sharing is possible, Then there is storing the stores and fuel. Going to be fun!

[ChrisVJ]

Surely for anything more than a couple of days survival dispersal major roads are impractical.

Apart from the spares and servicing thing there would be desperate need to move troops, supplies etc around the country and not being able to use major roads would be a severe hindrance. Have to deploy the regiment down the road ten miles? Sorry, can't do that. RAF have closed the bye pass. Needs a two hundred mile detour.

Pity they have been closing airfields willy nilly for so long. Hiding aircraft in twenty fields out of three hundred would be more practical. (In Canada we'd probably only need three.)

[99 Change Hands]

Mid 1980s I was involved in planning a trial for dispersing nuke-armed GR1s; all very TS UK Eyes etc. Shortly after I was posted they did the practical element. Mate of mine was in the back seat of a Marham jet which slipped into West Raynham at sunset. As it taxied in he glanced to the right to see a spotter in a hedge with a long lens.

[skua]

For many years, Norwich was the only city I knew that was at the end of a lane. At least its been dualled now.
At least it's a Roman lane!

[Asturias56]

It was in relation to concentrating everything at BZZ, and answering an earlier question about why was Lyneham kept open, albeit not as an RAF station.
Ahhh - thanks!

[Davef68]

. However, the cost of remediating the whole site potentially exceed the net worth; by comparison the huge POL depot at Rosyth was sold 20 years ago for £9M and the buyers were paid a further £12M to remediate it...


A bit of an aside, but demolition of the Churchill bunker as originally scheduled for two years, ended up taking about 12!

[Davef68]

I think Out of Trim is correct, it will be the recent ex-operational stations. Leuchars has already been used for 'off station QRA' whilst Losiemouth had it's runway upgraded for P-8. using the ones still under military control also gives you the FP and security you would need

[superplum]

I remember the good old days of Gutersloh and the sheer volume of MT needed to roll the support convoys. It might be instructive for someone to do the sums and work out just how much more kit groups of deployed aircraft will need as compared to being on an MOB where sharing is possible, Then there is storing the stores and fuel. Going to be fun!

and nobody has considered the need for "lots" of electric vehicle chaging points when petrol/diesel vehicles are replaced!

[NutLoose]

I always thought one airfield we should never have ditched was Saint Athan, it had been extensively upgraded and had the facilities to take the transport fleet if needed, the only disadvantage is probably its location. If you had to close Lyneham then moving it to Saints would probably have attracted Welsh grants etc.

It’s ok saying they would need to invest in the transport to sustain operations off grid, but you would also need people to back that up and operate the fleets of vehicles, catering, fuel, etc.. etc…

[Ninthace]

and nobody has considered the need for "lots" of electric vehicle chaging points when petrol/diesel vehicles are replaced!
I had enough trouble at Gutersloh wandering up and down the MT lines trying to find a 12V Land Rover so I could run my kit off the dash plug.

[br9mp81]

Mid 1980s I was involved in planning a trial for dispersing nuke-armed GR1s; all very TS UK Eyes etc. Shortly after I was posted they did the practical element. Mate of mine was in the back seat of a Marham jet which slipped into West Raynham at sunset. As it taxied in he glanced to the right to see a spotter in a hedge with a long lens.
I was on the fire section,whilst it was welcome excitment, on a very slow camp,i hate to say it was the local pub landlord that told us we would need bigger fire engines.

[BEagle]

St. Athan had one relatively short runway, narrow taxiways, very limited parking and it also has a very poor weather factor.

Not really much use for AT/AAR aircraft unless at low weights.

[AnglianAV8R]

Sweden got it right....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNak9lB_q00

[Tashengurt]

So some adaptions to barriers and lights etc, a few exercises and suddenly the M6 finds itself on the initial target list. I can't imagine these sites would be numerous enough to make them hard to find?

[Doctor Cruces]

We'll be alright in Norfolk then. No bl**dy motorways anywhere here....
No roads without huge potholes either, Bob!!

[Cat Techie]

Well it's either this or Amazon Prime I guess.....................

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/713x406/2021_07_23_101545_4da9ac8a7833e2ea2859ed2fa1dffade602e5204.j pg
Whomever thought that 4 Pegasus engines would lift a tank as well as a fuelled airframe in the 60's was bonkers. Labour did see that so brought C-130s instead.

[Cat Techie]

We'll be alright in Norfolk then. No bl**dy motorways anywhere here....

Dual Carriageways are large enough, Alas the road users around Colt haven't got a clue who to use them as they are "Not normal for Narfalk!"
https://scontent.fman2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/s2048x2048/147525072_2899989673600825_3477990509277611256_n.jpg?_nc_cat =103&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=Ln-iuNbcQsIAX95_72M&_nc_ht=scontent.fman2-1.fna&oh=d477a4f4250892a7b9609db9d39497b9&oe=6123C7D9

[Deltasierra010]

They won’t be using roads, far too much road furniture these days, in any case there are plenty of proper runways in the UK, it’s going to be enough of a challenge to get all of the supplies and tech to another airfield. If hostilities do break out satellite surveillance is so fast the enemy would just follow the support convoy, thankfully nobody is likely to start a shooting war with Russia

[Asturias56]

I think if a shooting war with Russia broke out on a scale that required large scale dispersal it's unlikely to last long enough to require a full service support before everything starts to glow in the dark

[MAINJAFAD]

I was on the fire section,whilst it was welcome excitment, on a very slow camp,i hate to say it was the local pub landlord that told us we would need bigger fire engines.

I was there as well. I'm pretty sure that Tornados visited the place more than once in 1988-89.

[Asturias56]

"would lift a tank as well as a fuelled airframe "

to be fair the illustration shows Saladin Armoured Cars - about 11 tons a piece

And it was originally to be STOL not VTOL, with a payload of 35,000 lb

Still mad but stranger things have flown,,, and been bought - tho why the OR branch kept insisting on UK-Ascension range is beyond me

If there hadn't been a knock down fight over the engines that wasted a couple of years it might well still have been in service

[BEagle]

681 was indeed barking mad! For STOL it would (probably) have had 4 x 18290lb thrust BS100 engines under development for P.1154, but for VTOL those would have been supplemented by 2 wing pods each fitted with 9 x 11000lb thrust lift engines....

Fortunately, but to the detriment of the British aircraft industry, the 681 was cancelled in favour of the C-130.

[ve3id]

The article - originally in The Telegraph - got ahead of itself by jumping on the old Jaguar video and The Drive went along with it.

Clearly any dispersal is going to be to former military airfields - attempting to be as covert as possible with a minimum visible footprint - or civilian airfields.

I was the Project Officer the last time this was tried - 2 x Tornado GR1 in a simulated nuclear strike role - landed at dusk on a non-flying unit then in current military ownership - shut down on the waterfront in front of a vacant 1930s hangar - towed in rapidly - with tractor and parallel GSE towing attachment (as used for 2 in a HAS).

Held at RS15 using a secure comms briefcase that converted a BT phone into a secure one.



No a reliable system nowadays, in event of emergency Cell coverage will be the first to go.
You need a cadre of Ham Radio operators!

[BEagle]

You need a cadre of Ham Radio operators!

As witness the comms in Independence Day which resorted to Morse Code!

[RAFEngO74to09]

No a reliable system nowadays, in event of emergency Cell coverage will be the first to go!

Not a cell phone.

The BID/470 Brahms was a briefcase "with not much room for your sandwiches" that you plugged into a standard BT landline wall socket converting it into a secure speech device. State of the art back in the 1980s !

https://twitter.com/gchq/status/819557045904941057?lang=en

[brokenlink]

Russia Threat Could See U.K. Fighter Jets Operating From Highways Once Again (thedrive.com) (https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/41634/russia-threat-could-see-u-k-fighter-jets-operating-from-highways-once-again)

CAS has announced there will be no-notice exercises for this.

A lot of preparation is going to be needed in terms of planning / resourcing how all the required GSE and drill weapons for re-arms gets moved to multiple locations at once, how a limited pool of aircraft spares is split between locations and moved, what comms SEngO / JEngOs will be provided with to keep a grip on what is going on etc.

If they got rid of the damm cars parked all over Wyton they could use that as well!

[BEagle]

I recall some barking mad exercise we had at Brize once. The idea was that we would deploy to Fairford as a DOB.....until the cost of such an idea became apparent. So instead we stayed at Brize and worked from a squalid group of huts down by JATE. Which was OK, except that the engineers insisted on full MOB turnrounds rather than the QTRs we normally enjoyed on detached ops. That put the kybosh on the flying programme and the whole thing turned to rats....

[NutLoose]

Our boss when told to put up blackouts at Brize had a wonderful tropical beach scene picture that fitted the window perfectly, the makes you feel good factor was lost on the Distaff.

Bruggen when modernising the HAS painted Has size squares on the apron for us to operated from.

[NutLoose]

Re secure comms , you won’t need to worry about classified info getting out while you have muppets like this in the forces.

https://taskandpurpose.com/culture/war-thunder-challenger-2-classified-specs/

[Melchett01]

So come the moment of crisis:

How many jets?
How many dispersal locations?
Assessment of likely size of Russian first wave strike?

I had to write a paper on the V-Force whilst at Staff College, turned up some interesting research that suggested even dispersed 80% of the V-Force could be destroyed in a Soviet first strike.

So my question to CAS is what’s changed since then to make that possibility any less likely? Simple to use robust aircraft might be able to go from motorways; I can’t see an F35 managing it given the technical requirements just to start the dammed engine. And it sure as hell won’t be operating out of hide sites. And I don’t see Typhoon being much better. So that narrows it down to fixed sites. Oh erm, we’ve sold our airfields? Hmmm right then, civilian airfields it is ala Battle of Britain. Let’s hope they hide the signatures.

Sounds like a good idea but rather impractical given the corner we’ve painted ourselves into. It also works on the assumption that the aircraft and airfields are likely to be the main targets. With so few pilots these days, it wouldn’t take much effort to thin those numbers down even further before they even got anywhere close to a jet.

[NutLoose]

I suppose UK PLC will be buying back all those now not so Secret Nuclear Bunkers, and removing the Secret Nuclear Bunker road signage dotted around the Country?

[Ninthace]

And bring back the ROC!

[ORAC]

A quick Google-wiki reveals that neither the F35 or Typhoon @ respective wingspans of 10.7 or 11.0 meters would fit in the standard HS2 tunnel internal diameter of 9.1m. (That was bright, wasn't it ?)
I blame the Romans…..


p.s. The bore of the HS2 tunnels varies between 7.55m to 8.8m.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/672272/D7_-_Tunnel_Construction_v1.3.pdf

[Mogwi]

I believe that the standard gauge for our railways was taken from the width of the cart-wheel tracks at Pompeii.

[Asturias56]

its supposed to be Housesteads on the Roman Wall

Bit of an urban myth if you google it - probably more to do with designing a cart around the width of a single horse

[NutLoose]

So what was the Great Western track based on? Brunel's favoured 7' 0¼" gauge.

As a side note, the Romans invented cats eyes as well in a circumspect route, they used to scatter marble waste chippings along the roads in cities which would reflect in the light of the burning torches on chariots.

[Tartiflette Fan]

If hostilities do break out satellite surveillance is so fast the enemy would just follow the support convoy, thankfully nobody is likely to start a shooting war with Russia

That would require geo-stationary satellites and I believe surveillance ones are orbiting.

[Tocsin]

And bring back the ROC!

I would be double-hatted, then :)

My old post still exists, but the old Group HQ has been flattened and tarmac'd as a car park...

[VictorGolf]

Two laybys closed on the A1 near Biggleswade. No signs of any f-35s though..

[dctyke]

No folders on F35s, so max difficulty even fitting them below decks on the older carriers, . . . Let alone tunnel based readiness positions per the Yugoslav/Swiss Cold War "Air station in a mountain" model.

So if there's been no intention in the UK the last 70 years to spend the akkers on new "First strike" proof shelters for "The day after" operations, then what's left ? US MX missile impersonations for retaliation ?. But the UK isn't the US in land area, so the launch solution would end up on as a RATOG-on-a-rail on a dropside trailler of a 38 tonner . . . . Think F100, trucking along the highways and byeways and at readiness for long periods and up to the first denotation, easily observable from space. Lovely.

I would have thought the main priorities for such survivors would be for information collection by reconnaisance . . . Who's still there, whose not . . . Who has usuable warlike resources that can be marshalled and point defence of remaining friendly surviving facilities and, as an outlier, a second strike on the remaining assets of the aggressor, Dr Strangelove style, to minimise the "Bunker gap" when survivors of either side eventually emerge.

A jet heli would probably have better post-first strike survivability/usuability and be able to do the reconnisance role and the point defence role could be assigned to Patriot type missile batteries and specifically designed point-defence aircraft . . . . Its all been done before:-

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNECMA_Col%C3%A9opt%C3%A8re

The PD conception being a pinch from the wartime RLM.

What a delightful prospect.


After a first strike I would think most military survivors will be more concerned about the welfare of their families than anything else!

[Asturias56]

"Two laybys closed on the A1 near Biggleswade. No signs of any f-35s though.."

Boy! that stealth coati REALLY works.......................

[PPRuNeUser0211]

I think if a shooting war with Russia broke out on a scale that required large scale dispersal it's unlikely to last long enough to require a full service support before everything starts to glow in the dark

A lot of people on this thread are assuming that a "full shooting war" is what this is about. I'd argue there's as much validity for dispersal in "grey zone" conflict. Let's say for the sake of argument there's a large build up of troops on the border of a friendly country where UK PLC might wish to intervene. The same day all the lights go out at your military airfields/the fuel gets mysteriously contaninated - you won't be able to pin it on anyone but it'll definitely be the little green men with designs on preventing your interference/overt support for the friendly country, whilst also undermining your credibility.

The ability to disperse your forces won't necessarily prevent such a sub-threshold event but may make the task more challenging and retain you a credible deterrent in that grey zone.

If people start dropping nukes, all these bets are off

[ve3id]

He obviously does not read what’s happening in the world, I wish him luck.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9786727/Motorways-fitted-overhead-electric-wires-charge-eTrucks-move.html


Plus on top of that the Government insist on building all those overhead concrete monstrosities for smart motorways etc, why they never legislated that cars must be able to transmit it to the drivers by xyz.. so you will be trying to land through overhead cables and overhead gantries… the Jag only had to struggle to find a straight bit of road without a bridge over it.

What you need is a fighter that has rough field capability like the Jag or the Harrier, both of which we binned, I’d hate to think how an F35 will standup to sitting in a lay-by.


​​​​​​…

It seems to me that the obvious answer to the trucking problem would be to go back to using the railways, with trucks only used for local trans-mode shipping. That would leave the motorways free of overheard charging wires to allow fighters to land!

[WB627]

It seems to me that the obvious answer to the trucking problem would be to go back to using the railways, with trucks only used for local trans-mode shipping. That would leave the motorways free of overheard charging wires to allow fighters to land!

Coming to a motorway near you, sooner than you might think....

Costain to lead “electric road” trial for HGV charging
https://www.constructionenquirer.com/2021/07/27/costain-to-lead-electric-road-trial-for-hgv-charging/

Costain is getting government funding for a feasibility study into “electric roads” for battery-powered heavy goods vehicles.

The contractor will consider trials of an ‘Electric Road System’ on a 20-kilometre stretch of road near Scunthorpe.
Electric Road Systems supply battery-electric trucks with electricity from overhead catenaries like those on the rail network enabling HGVs to charge dynamically as they drive. Costain will get the funding cash as part of a £20m drive by the government to encourage HGV operators to convert to battery-electric vehicles.

[bobward]

Electric road vehicles? I know, let's call them trams!

[pr00ne]

617 Sqn has already practiced 'austere dispersed ops' back in June when it landed and operated from Pantelleria and refuelled on the ground from an Italian AF KC-130J.

All this talk of using military bases and protection against multi warheaded ICBM's rather ignores what CAS actually SAID in his statement! Dispersed operations to protect against a possible hypersonic/supersonic cruise missile threat by no notice dispersal exercises to CIVIL airfields.

[Deltasierra010]

“Let's say for the sake of argument there's a large build up of troops on the border of a friendly country where UK PLC might wish to intervene.”

Like Ukraine

[NutLoose]

It seems to me that the obvious answer to the trucking problem would be to go back to using the railways, with trucks only used for local trans-mode shipping. That would leave the motorways free of overheard charging wires to allow fighters to land!


we’ll have enough of that, putting forward a far too sensible solution is not on… ;)


You just watch, the system they will choose will be set at such a height the trucks that use it will not be able to access cities due to the tram systems cables being to low ;)

[NutLoose]

A lot of people on this thread are assuming that a "full shooting war" is what this is about. I'd argue there's as much validity for dispersal in "grey zone" conflict. Let's say for the sake of argument there's a large build up of troops on the border of a friendly country where UK PLC might wish to intervene. The same day all the lights go out at your military airfields/the fuel gets mysteriously contaninated - you won't be able to pin it on anyone but it'll definitely be the little green men with designs on preventing your interference/overt support for the friendly country, whilst also undermining your credibility.

The ability to disperse your forces won't necessarily prevent such a sub-threshold event but may make the task more challenging and retain you a credible deterrent in that grey zone.


One of the worries in Germany was those friendly to the cause would introduce the likes of LSD to the station water supply resulting in a station full of armed bods high as kites and the dangers that entailed, let alone the station becoming none effective.

[Herod]

And once somebody starts it using nucleur, won't all the rest, good, bad and ugly, have to jump-in, knowing that if they don't use it they possibly will loose it by retaliatory and possible misguided strike/settling separate third party scores ? In those circumstances launch conditions and targetting will have to be pre-determined, with virtually no fail-safe, because they're won't be the time or prevailing conditions to allow definitive determination of who the actual culprits are ? So there may be a lot of smacking of the wrong bottoms.

"On the Beach" Nevil Shute 1957

[rattman]

I have been thinking with the advent of EMALS, you could setup an unsinkable carrier. I worked at a minesite in australia. I used to always think how easy it would be hide a "carrier" there.

It has large areas of tarmac, probably would need reinforcement for aircraft, you could use emal for launching and recovering aircraft, the large power requirement wouldn't be an issue because minesites already have high voltage power lines. Theres major shed that could store dozens of aircraft, large fuel tanks that store diesel cant imagine it would be much effort to convert them to a aviation fuel. They have storage for explosive which you can keep the bombs/munitions. Heaps of accomadation for the 'crew'

The emals would have to be fixed in the ground, they would be detectable by sat recon if you were looking for them, but they would be easy to hide. Just put a donga over them and when you need to use the emal just fork lift them off

[AnglianAV8R]

I have been thinking with the advent of EMALS, you could setup an unsinkable carrier..........

Going to need a big back up generator for the EMALS. Otherwise, take out one pylon and it's all redundant

[SLXOwft]

This realistically means dispersal at civvy (and probably ex RAF) airfields. You lot are getting hung up on roads, which isn't likely.

Think Stornoway, West Fruegh, Finningley, that kind of place.

Well downsizer was bang on, perhaps unsurprisingly the 'new concept' is to be trialled at Stornoway. I assume they've asked La Sturgeon for her permission to use her (government's) airfield?:E.

'The RAF have chosen to use Stornoway as a location due to its relative remoteness, which in turn has forced the deploying elements to consider Air transportable options; this removes the easy solutions that simply deploying from known main operating bases provide.'


https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/raf-to-deploy-to-remote-islands-in-outer-hebrides (https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/raf-to-deploy-to-remote-islands-in-outer-hebrides/)/RAF aircraft and personnel will deploy to Stornoway in the Outer Hebrides this week, in a major exercise to develop the future Agile Combat Employment concept.

Agile Combat Employment is a new concept, which aims to enable the RAF to operate from a greater number of locations, to provide increased flexibility and resilience. It is being developed and implemented using a series of exercises over the next 3 years.

"The next few days will test our ability with the minimum footprint of people and kit to receive, debrief, re-arm, refuel and rebrief a Combat Air capability. In short bursts of activity, we will use an A400M to bring in kit and also directly refuel our in-situ fuel bowser to support the Typhoon – an activity delivered by 1 Expeditionary Logistics Squadron from RAF Wittering. At the same time, 6 Squadron engineers will service and simulate re-arming the aircraft while the crews take advantage of our deployed comms capability to debrief and rebrief prior to re-launching. All of this under the watchful eye of a deployed team from 34 Squadron RAF Regiment and other security specialists providing an enclave protection and counter-intruder capability."

Squadron Leader Astle
Exercise Planner

[Ninthace]

Which all makes one wonder what shape the wheel will be when they reinvent it next time?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Well downsizer was bang on, perhaps unsurprisingly the 'new concept' is to be trialled at Stornoway. I assume they've asked La Sturgeon for her permission to use her (government's) airfield?:E.




https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/raf-to-deploy-to-remote-islands-in-outer-hebrides (https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/raf-to-deploy-to-remote-islands-in-outer-hebrides/)/

The last time I was at Stornoway we were there to defuel the BFI. Some idiot had torn up the pipework between the jetty and the pumphouse before checking if the tanks were empty so we had to build a temporary one to the jetty near Holm.

The main thing I remember about that place is that everything seemed to be closed on Sundays.

[Fonsini]

Ahem…


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x801/77f76634_5d3b_42c2_89b5_b07c4cfb18b0_404ef8ffc0bc0606caf2228 1f58386ac76ac3364.jpeg

[tcinbg]

Two runways here for the price of one. https://goo.gl/maps/iXFx7kQiQoCGDj3k7

[xtp]

Or use one of the museum airfields with external static aircraft to add some extra cover.