Should have kept Lyneham Open

[KPax]

https://www.forces.net/news/raf-brize-norton-runway-closed-repairs
Brize Closed as runway appears to have melted, 1 Voyager at Mildenhall.

[NutLoose]

1 of the White Tails and 1 Voyager at EGNX

[Thaihawk]

ZH871 Hercules C.4 calling RRR5711 diverted to Northolt, arriving there at 22:33 on the 19th from Nice. As of the evening of the 20th, this C-130 remains at Northolt.

[RAFEngO74to09]

Wrong type of warm weather for the tar - a bit like British Rail "wrong type of snow" in 1991 !

[TBM-Legend]

https://www.forces.net/news/raf-brize-norton-runway-closed-repairs
Brize Closed as runway appears to have melted, 1 Voyager at Mildenhall.


Ever heard of concrete? Works wonders in hot and cold climes....

[esscee]

Maybe use Fairford as happened in 1974 and again since then.

[Red Line Entry]

Lyneham is of course still open, although a Voyager landing there might have given a bit of a shock to the REME trainees busy practising recovering tanks on the runway!

[chopper2004]

https://www.forces.net/news/raf-brize-norton-runway-closed-repairs
Brize Closed as runway appears to have melted, 1 Voyager at Mildenhall.

Yep as I was there yesterday


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/4f7dce6f_8e34_4bbc_bc19_6c2a063eb43f_51373fb83ddedc1bf24746c 9997067f5055a3e48.jpeg

cheers

[ACW342]

Brize Norton, Home of the RAF Strategic Airlift Fleet
Brize Norton, Home of the RAF Tactical Airlift Fleet
Brize Norton, Home of the RAF Air to Air Refuelling Fleet
Brize Norton,1 single runway.

[NutLoose]

A stupid situation isn't it... and the fact they are having to shove them into civilian airports just makes the whole of it even more farcical, to not have the capability to move the fleet elsewhere is ludicrous. Take out the Brize runway and they are screwed.

[Stratnumberone]

If only someone had told them that putting all the AT assets into a station with only one runway could cause problems. We are all culpable for not doing so.

[Runaway Gun]

I vaguely recall a couple of Hercs visiting Brize to 'dry run' the concept, just before the closure of Lyneham. Of course, one landed Gear Up on the runway, and stopped :)

Base Commander bragged that the runway was still used, as a C-17 flew off the remaining length. Where to? To Lyneham, to fill up with fuel and cargo before continuing onwards.

[pasta]

On the positive side, handy to know that a request to transit the Brize zone is unlikely to be refused at the moment...

[Out Of Trim]

If only someone had told them that putting all the AT assets into a station with only one runway could cause problems. We are all culpable for not doing so.

It wasn’t too difficult to foresee! I'm sure the issue was discussed when RAFLyneham was withdrawn from use.I don’t really see the point. Seeing as Lyneham is still an MOD establishment, just occupied by the Army now. So what was actually saved. An embarrassingly strange decision that creates operational risks and lack of flexibility.

[dead_pan]

On the positive side, handy to know that a request to transit the Brize zone is unlikely to be refused at the moment...

Yup, seems like a few have cottoned on to this and are making use of the short-cut.

I know its hot but its been hotter over the past few years, so why this problem now? Didn't they do some work to the runway recently?

[OmegaV6]

Anyone trying to land at Lyneham now is in for a rude awakening !! Runway has many "buildings" on it, and the grass to the North and West of the runway has all been replaced by solar panels !!

[Shackman]

Apart from the diverted aircraft,how many others are actually stuck at Brize until the runway reopens?

[Ken Scott]

If only someone had told them that putting all the AT assets into a station with only one runway could cause problems. We are all culpable for not doing so.


I believe quite a few people at Lyneham did mention it including the local Wiltshire MP. I was rather severely told off by the then Stn Cdr for not being an ‘advocate of the move’ to Brize. As a Gp Capt he was required to be one although he told a marginally different tale at his dining-out night.

The birds are coming home to roost now though.

[bobward]

Apologies for the slight thread drift here.
In todays Daily Telegraph is a report on a statement by ACM Sir Mike Wigston that the RAF needs to 'relearn skills not practiced for 30 years'. A new series of exercises called Exercise Agile Stance will see fighter jets dispersed to civilian airfields or even motorways to make them harder for the Red Forces to destroy. I can't wait to see them at Norwich, although don't come on Mondays as they don't allow circuit training (grass cutting in progress!)

[fairflyer]

If only someone had told them that putting all the AT assets into a station with only one runway could cause problems. We are all culpable for not doing so.

Yup, they could have had two molten runways instead of one! Can't beat concrete eh?

[dead_pan]

Err just noticed that Fairford still seems to be open. Shirley that would be a suitable alternative? I imagine the facepalms at Brize when they hear this news - "Goddamandbuggeration Why didn't someone think of this?!"

S'funny coz the Reds flew over my house on Sunday on their return from Silverstone. I'd automatically assumed they were running in to Brize, then just found on they'd been operating from EGVA.

[RichardJones]

Didn't know whether to laugh or cry when I read this. Can't work out wjy an important MOD base put "out of action" by a few hot Days? Beggers belief.

Take Khartoum for example, one of the honest places on earth, they Don't have this sought of trouble with their single runway. There is always Heathrow to use I guess. Makes a "valid" military target if the military start using civil airports.

[Thaihawk]

Brize Norton, Home of the RAF Strategic Airlift Fleet
Brize Norton, Home of the RAF Tactical Airlift Fleet
Brize Norton, Home of the RAF Air to Air Refuelling Fleet
Brize Norton,1 single runway.



Bean counters win every time. Come the next war, and the enemy will win, in no small part due to the bean counters.

[jcgooch]

Oh yes the Herc wheels up landing :), they'd been doing circuits and bumps for a while and forgot the gear, I had the deep joy of being the Eng Ops controller on the day it happened, mind you it was a lovely landing smack down the middle and I did have the fun of using the bat phone to call OC Eng and let him know!

[Union Jack]

Sone of you are not taking this sticky problem seriously enough....

Jack

[bunta130]

If only someone had told them that putting all the AT assets into a station with only one runway could cause problems. We are all culpable for not doing so.

I did......on many occasions, both to the CATARA Team and to the VSOs of the day. Driven by cost savings - nothing else!

[esscee]

As this a a Rumour network, a few of us were led to believe that a paper written by a navigator on 101 sqn was spotted by a Bean Counter/Treasury and then put forward. Unfortunately the "idiots" refused to accept most arguments against and carried on regardless, obviously common sense ( single runway being the most obvious reason not to pursue this farcical idea ) within many officials mind's when mentioning saving money. Well said originator went far, became Air Attache at Washington in later years!

[[email protected]]

the RAF needs to 'relearn skills not practiced for 30 years'. like strategic planning for instance...............

[bunta130]

As this a a Rumour network, a few of us were led to believe that a paper written by a navigator on 101 sqn was spotted by a Bean Counter/Treasury and then put forward. Unfortunately the "idiots" refused to accept most arguments against and carried on regardless, obviously common sense ( single runway being the most obvious reason not to pursue this farcical idea ) within many officials mind's when mentioning saving money. Well said originator went far, became Air Attache at Washington in later years!

In fairness to Snake, it is unlikely that he came up with the idea, but rather staffed the paper for someone else.

[bunta130]

like strategic planning for instance...............

Whilst I would love to agree, the old Planning Rounds appear to have been replaced by yearly (and often more frequently) desperate savings measures makes coherency almost impossible. That process, mixed with tribal in-fighting for scarce assets in ordeer to protect cap badge etc, constantly changing contract specs that attract cost and time over-runs, and vortex of pet projects designed to get each VSO noticed within his or her 2-year in each tenure, is a recipe for poor planning at the Strategic and muddled execution at the Operational levels. Naturally, the people at the sharp end muddle through gallantly to cover failings. I would contend that it is not much different now than 30 years ago though....

[DC10RealMan]

I seem to remember visiting the Vindolanda Museum on Hadrians Wall and reading a parchment by a Roman Soldier about people at the sharp end muddling through and keeping the show on the road whilst senior officers caused chaos and confusion whilst trying to climb the greasy pole.

[skua]

As this a a Rumour network, a few of us were led to believe that a paper written by a navigator on 101 sqn was spotted by a Bean Counter/Treasury and then put forward. Unfortunately the "idiots" refused to accept most arguments against and carried on regardless, obviously common sense ( single runway being the most obvious reason not to pursue this farcical idea ) within many officials mind's when mentioning saving money. Well said originator went far, became Air Attache at Washington in later years!

I see a resumé for his ? current role? describes him as having been "aide de comps" to HMQ!

[Bill Macgillivray]

A400 airborne from BZN a little while ago, runway serviceable or did it use the grass? !!

[radeng]

Isn't REME Lyneham a different budget, so handing it over to the Army saved RAF budgets, even though the overall cost to MoD was the same? (Or possibly more at the end of the day!)

[Ken Scott]

The MOD (RAF) saved circa £7m pa in direct operating costs by closing Lyneham & dodging the repair bill to bring the real estate up to scratch after many years of (deliberate?) neglect.

The MOD (Army) spent circa £1b bringing the real estate up to scratch and converting it for the REME training school.

Different budgets? Or just one taxpayer funded pie? Discuss...

[dagenham]

The MOD (RAF) saved circa £7m pa in direct operating costs by closing Lyneham & dodging the repair bill to bring the real estate up to scratch after many years of (deliberate?) neglect.

The MOD (Army) spent circa £1b bringing the real estate up to scratch and converting it for the REME training school.

Different budgets? Or just one taxpayer funded pie? Discuss...


let’s also not forget the money the MOD have made from selling Prince Phillip Barracks in Bordon sur le Merde for the building of a new eco slum that has offset some of the money.

[DuncanDoenitz]

Is it cancelled? Sorry, thought this was a golf thread.

[Two's in]

It's hard to imagine any kind of operating risk assessment or OPEVAL for Brize Norton not starting with;

1. Runway unusable - present options.

In fairness, it is a relatively new station...

[Asturias56]

Is it cancelled? Sorry, thought this was a golf thread.

I thought I was the only one..... :uhoh:

[Red Line Entry]

Ken,

The cost of the move (Project Hercules) was considerably south of £200M, a little adrift from your figure. Incidentally, Lyneham sits within the Defence College of Technical Training, which itself is part of the Air Top Level Budget, so infra costs still fall to Air, not Land, Command. The major savings were in the disposal of both Arborfield and Borden.

[vascodegama]

RLE

An interesting summary, do we know what the saving are /were in the disposal of the other 2 units?
My guess is that it does not meet the 200M.

[bluetail]

Tansor Voyager is currently at EGQS, but didn't leave today for BZN as it has done on it previous two visits this month.

[RetiredBA/BY]

If only someone had told them that putting all the AT assets into a station with only one runway could cause problems. We are all culpable for not doing so.
I did, too.
On a GAPAN visit to Brize at the station commander’s briefing, I asked the question :
So, you have all the transport and tanker assets of the RAF at Brize, with just one runway. Now, what happens if a terrorist or three creep on to said runway and blow holes in it! Rendering it unuseable ?

We have a plan said SC , next question please !
I do hope the plan was/is cunning !

[stewyb]

Just use Fairford when Brive is inactive, it’s large enough and under utilised!

[Ken Scott]

The cost of the move (Project Hercules) was considerably south of £200M, a little adrift from your figure.

RLE: that was for phase 1, first 2 years only.

Relocating all the C130s to Brize was also not inexpensive...

[bspatz]

Stewyb - Not if most of your assets are sat on the pan at Brize with a closed runway!

[zetec2]

C130's been operating out of Kidlington (Oxford Kidlington) are the RAF going to start dispersing the fleet to get over the runway & logistics problems ?.

[dead_pan]

Pinched from fightercontrol.co.uk:

Current Operating positions:
Updated 27/07/21

RAF Mildenhall:
Voyager ZZ331

Birmingham Airport
Voyager ZZ337

Gatwick Airport
Voyager ZZ333

Stansted Airport
Voyager ZZ335 currently on its way to RAF Akotiri.

RAF Fairford
C-130J ZH866
C-17A ZZ178
A-400M ZM412

Oxford Aiport
C-130J ZH872

PS Another Herc was operating from Little Rissington but I believe this is now the one operating from Fairford.

[dead_pan]

Forgot to add - current NOTAM suggests runway won't be restored to its full operational length until.....22nd August. Cue more frothing!

[pr00ne]

So, all dispersed, all operating, early use of CAS dispersal exercise, what's the problem?

[sycamore]

Does`nt count,pr00ne,because they`re not `fast jets`.....

[pr00ne]

sycamore,

Again, what's the problem?

[Union Jack]

Just use Fairford when Brive is inactive, it’s large enough and under utilised!

What's 485 miles between friends......:D

Jack

[pasta]

C130's been operating out of Kidlington (Oxford Kidlington) are the RAF going to start dispersing the fleet to get over the runway & logistics problems ?.
If they're dropping meat bombs at Weston, Kindlington might make a lot of sense...

[pr00ne]

zetec2

The RAF patently ARE dispersing the fleet to get over runway problems!

[Ken Scott]

So, all dispersed, all operating, early use of CAS dispersal exercise, what's the problem?

pr00ne: the list was of 8 aircraft, there will be a few more at Brize not able to operate.

’What’s the problem?’ Well, the entire AT fleet is at a base which has only a single runway which couldn’t cope with a short spell of hot weather. Such hot spells are likely to be more common in the future thanks to the dreaded climate change. That some of the aircraft had to divert and are now operating out of nearby civil airports (who must be loving the fuel & parking charges) doesn’t mitigate the effect on operations. Sounds like a problem to me.

[DaveUnwin]

This reads like a script for 'Yes Minister'. You can just see Sir Humphrey extolling the virtues and cost-savings of putting all the aeroplanes on one base, Jim Hacker doing his best to make sense of it all when Bernard takes a phone call and relays the message to the minister. "Are you telling me Bernard, that none of those aircraft can take off, because the runway has melted?" "Yes, minister." (Cue the credits/end music).

[Video Mixdown]

the list was of 8 aircraft, there will be a few more at Brize not able to operate.
Do you know that for a fact or did you just make it up? If you made it up, why?
That some of the aircraft had to divert and are now operating out of nearby civil airports doesn’t mitigate the effect on operations. Sounds like a problem to me.
Same question.

[Ken Scott]

I used to be stationed at Brize, I know for a fact there are more than 8 ac based there...

[Video Mixdown]

I used to be stationed at Brize, I know for a fact there are more than 8 ac based there...
But you know nothing about the current situation. So you made it up. Why?

[Ken Scott]

That’s a rather aggressive post. Perhaps you might try being a little more civil? You might disagree with me but that doesn’t necessarily make me wrong.

[vascodegama]

I would have thought that it was extremely unlikely that the RAF managed to anticipate the short notice runway problems. In fact, the service has problems anticipating anything. So I agree with Ken it is very probable that ac were stuck on the ground for varying times. It rather highlights the problem with a single base with a single runway.

[BEagle]

Reagarding DOB operations, perhaps closer examination should be given to all the original V-force Main Bomber Bases and dispersed operating bases? For example, when at Scampton, 35 used Finningley and 617 used Leeming. All 3 aerodromes still have decent runways, although Finningley is now an underused civil airport, Leeming is used to a fraction of its capaicty and Scampton is apparently on the verge of closure...

[NutLoose]

I would have thought that it was extremely unlikely that the RAF managed to anticipate the short notice runway problems. In fact, the service has problems anticipating anything. So I agree with Ken it is very probable that ac were stuck on the ground for varying times. It rather highlights the problem with a single base with a single runway.

And all the maintenance facilities too.

[Jerry Atrick]

Reagarding DOB operations, perhaps closer examination should be given to all the original V-force Main Bomber Bases and dispersed operating bases? For example, when at Scampton, 35 used Finningley and 617 used Leeming. All 3 aerodromes still have decent runways, although Finningley is now an underused civil airport, Leeming is used to a fraction of its capacity and Scampton is apparently on the verge of closure...

Plus Cottesmore, Honington, Woodbridge and one could argue Wattisham. All superb runway assets that should be retained with a sprinkling of C&M.

[Doctor Cruces]

Is Brize open again? Just seen 2 x C17 on ADSB land there.

[sycamore]

They should have been able to land on the taxiways....

[Mr N Nimrod]

Is Brize open again? Just seen 2 x C17 on ADSB land there.
why are you asking if you know the answer?

[Runaway Gun]

Is there any chance of snow or ice being a limiting factor later in the year? Might want to plan ahead...

[Doctor Cruces]

why are you asking if you know the answer?
Because ADSB isn't brilliant, ADSB can lose low aircraft whilst still airbourne and why are you so naff?

[Stratnumberone]

Is there any chance of snow or ice being a limiting factor later in the year? Might want to plan ahead...


no it’ll be fine. It never snows or ices up in Oxfordshire, in the same way that single runways never get blacked.

[Not a Crew Chief]

Reagarding DOB operations, perhaps closer examination should be given to all the original V-force Main Bomber Bases and dispersed operating bases? For example, when at Scampton, 35 used Finningley and 617 used Leeming. All 3 aerodromes still have decent runways, although Finningley is now an underused civil airport, Leeming is used to a fraction of its capacity and Scampton is apparently on the verge of closure...

Referring to the the other thread on dispersed Ops, key to it all though, was that our dispersal had a full set of support equipment. For my sins, I was first in last out when 35 dispersed to Finningley, being the inventory holder and designated 'responsible SNCO' (no tittering at the back). Effectively 35 had two lots of GSE etc, right down to crew room kettles. One lot at Scampton and the other, the bane of my life, at Doncaster International.
I must have done something bad in a previous life as my other sins were rewarded with being UMO for a 3 engined Squadron. Even deploying to Fairford for Taceval, whilst 10 and 101 went somewhere else, was a nightmare as Brize tried to divi up it's assets for 3 squadrons and found it didn't have enough. The biggest fight being not between the squadrons but all 3 UMOs, acting together, and the station who naturally wanted to retain some assets for the non deploying non exercise tasking, plus a reserve.

Happy days.

[Willard Whyte]

Is there any chance of snow or ice being a limiting factor later in the year? Might want to plan ahead...

They'll certainly maintain and test the de-icing equipment. After the first hard frost and snowfall course.

[BEagle]

One cold March I recall Brize was down to about one serviceable de-icing rig. So it was decided that another should be hired from Heathrow. Great idea - only the minimum hire period was 3 months.....

[Thaihawk]

Is Brize open again? Just seen 2 x C17 on ADSB land there.

Brize is colour code black until August 22nd. Only movements allowed are selected empty or near empty stationed aircraft. Apparently the runway has to be inspected after each movement.

Also, there's talk of this situation extending into September.

East Midlands, Birmingham, Fairford, Northolt and other fields can expect extra movements.

[ancientaviator62]

Do I read correctly that the problems at Brize are heat related ? If so I am puzzled as when I was with JATE at Brize we cam back from the USA during the great heatwave of 1976 and had no such problems. I recall it well because as we descended you could smell the parched earth. At this rate all the 'savings' will be swallowed up in landing fees elsewhere !

[vascodegama]

aa62-the runway has had 2 refurbishments since then. In fact after the last bolthole (2000ish ) there were problems with the breaking up of the taxiway in what appears to be a similar manner to the current runway issues. As a civil eng mate of mine said at the time-either someone cocked up the contract or someone cocked up the work. To be honest I am not sure which way I would bet.

[OKOC]

Oh yes the Herc wheels up landing :), they'd been doing circuits and bumps for a while and forgot the gear, I had the deep joy of being the Eng Ops controller on the day it happened, mind you it was a lovely landing smack down the middle and I did have the fun of using the bat phone to call OC Eng and let him know!
Yes, Well done Al, Cat 5'd one of the last Klassics. Complacency, boredom CRM etc.

[bunta130]

Yes, Well done Al, Cat 5'd one of the last Klassics. Complacency, boredom CRM etc.

And the landing gear warning horn cb not fully seated (though looked to be)...... However, to err is human etc....

[ancientaviator62]

Vasco,
I assumed that it had been refurbished since my time there. Sounds like the job they do round here on the very few potholes they 'fix'. Done one day just as bad a few days later.
No inspections or quality control it would seem in either case. I assume that when 'they' decided to pack it all into Brize they took account of the increased wear and tear on the runway and other infrastructure ! Or perhaps not.

[GeeRam]

aa62-the runway has had 2 refurbishments since then. In fact after the last bolthole (2000ish ) there were problems with the breaking up of the taxiway in what appears to be a similar manner to the current runway issues. As a civil eng mate of mine said at the time-either someone cocked up the contract or someone cocked up the work. To be honest I am not sure which way I would bet.

I'd be more inclined to vote for the former, unless MOD decided to employ a contractor with no previous airfield experience (which wouldn't be a surprise of course!)
Runway and taxiway construction hasn't really changed much in the 40 years I've been involved in doing it......so MOD wanting a Rolls Royce for Skoda money as usual, and/or appointing the cheapest, and least experienced contractor would be where I'd be looking at. However, even the so-called experienced contractors these days don't appoint experienced site engineers on site anymore, as they are too expensive.....:ugh:

[AnglianAV8R]

I seem to remember visiting the Vindolanda Museum on Hadrians Wall and reading a parchment by a Roman Soldier about people at the sharp end muddling through and keeping the show on the road whilst senior officers caused chaos and confusion whilst trying to climb the greasy pole.

Oh, come along now, that is incorrect.
It was at Housesteads.

[ORAC]

Falsely attributed to Petronius Arbiter.

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/11/12/reorganizing/

[haltonapp]

I can remember when working on the flat iron, in the sixties, being dispersed to Gaydon and Valley!

[Old-Duffer]

Today, the Sunday Telegraph contains an article dealing with (avoidable) problems at Brize Norton. Quite frankly something like this would always happen so where are the realistic CONTINGENCY plans? (Private Eye was already in there).

How much would it have cost to set up an enclave at Lyneham? There would only need to have been a small permanent crew, which would have been reinforced when required. This crew would have been 'parented' by the REME. At Benson in the early 1960s, the air movements unit was run, at least one day per week, by the senior air movements course gaining practical experience and supervised by their instructors.

I note the RAF is trying to put a brave face on - almost suggesting that this perfectly normal.

Is it so difficult to get it right????

When the revolution comes, I shall dust off my Tumbrill and carry the bean counters to their just deserts!!!

What nonsense has HS2 got to do with providing the nation with a decent railway. The money - I've forgotten the actual billions - should be deployed elsewhere and soon.

Old Duffer

[esscee]

Classic example of doing things on the cheap or official view "value for money". Another example at said base when most of the old pans/stands were made into one larger area, but not every new stand could take Heavy aircraft to save money again. I remember talking to someone about the new large concreted spaces and was told of a tale. Even Eng Ops controllers did not know which new stand could support Heavy aircraft, they had to talk to VASS who it appears had one of the few "maps" of whole area stating the load supported on each specific new stand. Fiasco or what, there again why should we be surprised!

[chopper2004]

I popped by the Hall last week and saw two Voyagers (now RTB) as one had gone out on mission came back and parked up next to a new visitor. So caught the tails as NJ ANG KC-135R here supporting the Aviano F-16 deployment to Red Flag Alaska came in.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x640/a1886b68_28b3_4e26_8c27_e6a3a453992b_010ca5a9fb68c57f05098af 0c96f25f9a184738b.jpeg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x640/216a5f52_3912_418f_a56c_62f7f950d513_f21fbab7c8ef4ae7bd58752 cff747b4a1525f9b9.jpeg

[BEagle]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9873813/amp/Runway-RAF-Brize-Norton-riddled-POTHOLES.html

Oh FFS........

[Mr N Nimrod]

I popped by the Hall last week and saw two Voyagers (now RTB) as one had gone out on mission came back and parked up next to a new visitor. So caught the tails as NJ ANG KC-135R here supporting the Aviano F-16 deployment to Red Flag Alaska came in.



you’ll have well done to read the tail numbers off those pic’s

[Mr N Nimrod]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9873813/amp/Runway-RAF-Brize-Norton-riddled-POTHOLES.html

Oh FFS........
Not potholes, but what a mess.

[GeeRam]

Not potholes, but what a mess.

And that damage of that apron surface in that photo has got nothing to do with the warm weather either...........