Aviation Degree UNSW, Swinburne for Future 2025

[lr911611]

Hi,
I am looking for some help and advice.

So i'm only 17 at the moment but intent on becoming a pilot in aviation, it's been my passion my whole life.

With the state of the industry at the moment it seems mildly impossible to get a job right now but in my situation, i would only have my licences and be ready to look for a job probably by around 2025 when im 22 after university.

I have been looking at aviation degrees and am mainly focusing on the:
- UNSW Bachelor of Aviation (Flying)
- Swinburne Bachelor Aviation / Bachelor Business
- UNSW Bachelor Aviation (Management) with Graduate Diploma in Flying - this gives me a more management / business degree in the aviation field and all the necessary flying qualifications
- UNSW Bachelor Aviation (Management) / Bachelor Commerce

If anyone has done either of these degrees could you please provide some info about them; mainly the costs and how the fees are handled with HELP loans but also about the structure and learning intensity especially with the double degrees and how that works with the flying at Swinburne. These university websites are only helpful to an extent.

My main question is what people will think the industry will look like around 2025, which is when i would most likely finish the degree, in terms of aviation pilot jobs and maybe if qantas re-opens their QFPP?

If anyone has any information or advice that they could share I will be greatly appreciative.

Thanks

[Maggie Island]

Not trying to rain on your parade but I would personally stay away from any flying/aviation related bachelor degree. If you’re dead keen on flying I’d get a CPL with a flying school then do a finance/business/something useful degree. Towards the end of uni top up your flying with further quals and you’ll be pretty well set up as a 22yo in the event Australian airlines are either gangbusters or broke or anything in between.

[lr911611]

Thanks for the response. I understand lots of people saying it's much safer to get a finance degree and flying qualifications on side. Thats why i was looking for some insight into these aviation / business / commerce double degrees because its a kind of best of both worlds.

[LostWanderer]

Not trying to rain on your parade but I would personally stay away from any flying/aviation related bachelor degree. If you’re dead keen on flying I’d get a CPL with a flying school then do a finance/business/something useful degree. Towards the end of uni top up your flying with further quals and you’ll be pretty well set up as a 22yo in the event Australian airlines are either gangbusters or broke or anything in between.

Absolutely agree.
A degree in anything aviation doesn't mean a hell of a lot to anyone unfortunately. IT/Finance etc... as Maggie Island said, will cover you regardless of how well/bad the Aussie aviation industry is in a few years time. And quite frankly, its anyones guess right now.

[PoppaJo]

My advice would be forget the degree, spend the next 5-10 years in another Industry. Build up your confidence (and cash), people management skills, General life experience. Most people at 18, then 30 are completely different people. I sit next to a bloke who was a engineer in another industry for 15 years. He got his CPL at 33. He sits next to me now at 40. All self funded via GA. I also sit next to 25yr olds. Completely different pilots. One group is lazy and struggles vs the other, I’ll let you guess which one.

I would be more focused on what GA job you could get in 5 years vs Airlines. It shouldn’t take too long to move up the ladder as the Airlines start poaching the regional and GA pool, then the regionals start going for the GA guys and so on...

I worked in recruitment in a previous operator. I did not even factor a degree into who I gave the job to. Just be mindful as the universities are very desperate for revenue at the moment. Careful what they promise.

[lr911611]

My advice would be forget the degree, spend the next 5-10 years in another Industry. Build up your confidence (and cash), people management skills, General life experience. Most people at 18, then 30 are completely different people. I sit next to a bloke who was a engineer in another industry for 15 years. He got his CPL at 33. He sits next to me now at 40. All self funded via GA. I also sit next to 25yr olds. Completely different pilots. One group is lazy and struggles vs the other, I’ll let you guess which one.

I would be more focused on what GA job you could get in 5 years vs Airlines. It shouldn’t take too long to move up the ladder as the Airlines start poaching the regional and GA pool, then the regionals start going for the GA guys and so on...

I worked in recruitment in a previous operator. I did not even factor a degree into who I gave the job to. Just be mindful as the universities are very desperate for revenue at the moment. Careful what they promise.

Thank you for the response. I think the main reason i am looking into an aviation degree is it focuses on the aviation management side with a focus on business in aviation context and also provides me with the necessary licences rather than just getting licences at a flight school. I know employers like airlines won't necessarily care to factor a degree in but wouldn't an aviation degree be helpful to maybe get a management position within the aviation field and then work there for a while earning money to pay for more flying?
To your point, that is why i am also considering the aviation and business degrees because it gives the best of both worlds with two degrees so i can work in other industries. Do you know any information or anyone that has done this approach?
Thanks

[ebt]

I'm going to go against the above posters and say that there is absolutely value in pursuing a degree qualification, even if you choose the single major in aviation. You may think that it limits your career choices, but having a degree in anything is what will get you into the door for a multitude of different jobs later on. There is also the case that even if you end up in a non-flying position after uni, it will set you up for a number of other roles within the aviation industry and beyond. If you want to extend your field further, go with the double degree and you will hedge your bets. But choose something that you can be passionate about as you will hate it, especially if that is the area that you end up deviating into. Or if you are a true aviation nut, find ways to put that spin on the other major- so if it is finance, look at how that might be a way into the aviation finance sector.

Putting on my crystal ball, I think that by 2025 the oversupply in the market (as a whole) will be long gone. I would say that already we are starting to see some of the bigger markets roar back to life, and through 2022/23 we will see international flying start to recover. Until we get into the semi/fully autonomous passenger aircraft there will be a need for drivers as the fleet expands.

[gulliBell]

Forget the degree. If you want to fly, join the military. If you don't meet the military recruiting standards, learn a trade. Plumbers and roof tilers are earning over $200/hr at the moment. You will never earn that as a pilot.

[Gnadenburg]

I think for 2020 I was paid about 6 to 7 thousand dollars per stick hour ( prior to redundancy ). :8

[lr911611]

Thanks for all the advice I understand both perspectives but i know i am leaning more towards the side of a degree, not specifically aviation but maybe aviation management and learn to fly afterwards but does anyone have information about these specific degrees or know anything about and the structure and workload. Would be greatly appreciated but thanks for all the responses so far.

[umop apisdn]

over $200/hr at the moment. You will never earn that as a pilot.
This is so incorrect. Just because you aren't doesn't mean it's impossible.


To the OP. I did the Swinburne course. Luckily my timing was a bit better, but it's been worth it for me. You also forge some very solid connections. I guess I took getting into the industry early in exchange for the fee help burden, and maybe in hindsight I should have tried to fund it as I went, but it's not something I give too much thought.

[lr911611]

This is so incorrect. Just because you aren't doesn't mean it's impossible.


To the OP. I did the Swinburne course. Luckily my timing was a bit better, but it's been worth it for me. You also forge some very solid connections. I guess I took getting into the industry early in exchange for the fee help burden, and maybe in hindsight I should have tried to fund it as I went, but it's not something I give too much thought.

Which course did you take at Swinburne? Is there any more information you can give me about it ? maybe like how a week looked like or the intensity of work perhaps? even any bad things about the degree? anything would be great as I am trying to find more in depth info rather than whats just published on their homepage which is all about how good it is?

[FlightlessParrot]

FWIW, which is not very much, I would go with Maggie Island: get a business degree, and pursue flying as a separate activity, simultaneously or in sequence. I know naught about aviation, but my experience of universities is that the courses with a flavour CAN be rather watered down (the most extreme example is the difference between Law and Commercial Law at a uni known to me). A degree with a specialisation in Accounting, or Marketing, or Management Information, or whatever is going to be more generally useful if the aviation industry is still earthbound when you graduate, than one with 'Aviation' in front of it. Specialisations in the aviation-relevant topics might be better done as a graduate diploma add-on.

It might be that one or more of the courses you propose are actually first-rate. You're obviously doing the right thing asking here; but given you might be forced to take a job outside aviation, it might be also worthwhile trying to find out how accountants, say, think about Aviation Business degrees compared with straight Business degrees.

Good luck.

[Australopithecus]

Another thing to ruminate over: By the time you have your degree you will qualify for an E3 visa to work in the USA. Not everyone's cup of tea, but if there are E jet jobs there and none here, you will at least have that opportunity. Not so without the degree.

That said…I am employed at a major on their top pay rate, and I can barely afford to hire tradesmen. Every airline CEO in the country is constantly complaining about tall poppy pilot pay in public, yet people just shrug when you mention trade rates.

[Roj approved]

Ask yourself this question,

Do I want to be a Professional Pilot?

If the answer is Yes, I would suggest you do everything you can to be that.

What do you need to be an AEROMED pilot? Or a Survey Pilot, or a Chief Flying Instructor?

The basic fact is, if you don’t have a CPL, you won’t get a flying job. Without a MECIR, you won’t get an AEROMED job and without ATPL subjects you won’t get an airline job.

Do you need a degree? Not at the moment.

What portion of the degree is HECS, and what portion do you have to pay for? From the chats I’ve had with new guys/girls, it’s about 50/50 split. So it costs $60k for the flying, and the other $60k is paid via HECS.

Outside of the Degree you have to pay for the CASA Exams. There’s a couple of Thousand dollars.

When I did mine, Griffith Uni, 2000 -2004, they basically split the 7 ATPL subjects in half to create content. The actual amount of “Aviation Management” was 2 subjects out of a 3 year degree, very light on.

Like others have said, do a Business/Finance/ IT degree or a trade and learn to fly on your own.

Last year we all learnt how narrow our skill set is, there are a few guys/girls with banking/finance backgrounds that where able to get back into the finance sector and now continue to do it part time while we are back to flying.

They are making more than the $30/hour I made driving a van.

Good luck

[Anti Skid On]

Find yourself a way of acquiring $$$'s (legally) and get to your nearest club; get your PPL; if you do go to Uni, see if they have a Uni flying squad. Be nice to the people at the club. If the aircraft need to go elsewhere for maintenance be ready and willing to take that role. Get pally with the members, who needs someone to tag along with them on a ferry trip, etc. Get those hours, once they're in your logbook they don't go away.

[dr dre]

A lot are talking about getting a degree in a different field as a backup if aviation doesn’t work out or the economy takes a hit.

A word of advice, plenty of people out of work for periods of time over the last year. Having a degree in a random field doesn’t automatically guarantee a job, especially if the degree was gained years before. You’ll be going up against grads with very relevant and current education and willing to work at an entry level wage.

The only ones I’ve known who were able to jump into alternate careers quick were those who had maintained their knowledge and skills in an alternate career on a part time basis whilst flying, and juggling two careers simultaneously isn’t easy.

[umop apisdn]

Which course did you take at Swinburne? Is there any more information you can give me about it ? maybe like how a week looked like or the intensity of work perhaps? even any bad things about the degree? anything would be great as I am trying to find more in depth info rather than whats just published on their homepage which is all about how good it is?

So I went through a good while ago, and I hear some parts of the flying are different and less fun now, like they don't let you do flyaways to build hours anyore. I have no idea how true that is, just thirdhand information

It definitely wasn't the kind of course you can have any kind of part time job with. I made sure I worked enough beforehand to qualify for youth allowance, so that was a big help all through uni, even though it wasn't much. I'd highly suggest you do the same. You'll have the added weight of needing somewhere to live if you're not from Melbourne.

The course consisted of a split between going to the campus and going to the airport to learn flying stuff, whether it be actual flying or theory. Something like Monday, Wednesday, Friday at the campus and Tuesday, Thursday at the airport, weekends sometimes too if you wanted to fly more.

The ENTIRE reason I did the course is so that I could have a method to afford flight training. I did not care about the degree, although, funnily enough, it has helped me out a couple of times.

The Bachelor of Aviation is pretty much just filled with interesting, but ultimately useless information. I mean sure I know what materials are best to use for a cantilevered wing, the formula for the speed of sound or how to deal with an accident, but none of that really helps me in my day to day. Anything actually useful wasn't taught and has been learned on the job. It's kind of dumb, IMO, that I can know that stuff, but have no idea how to change a tyre on a cessna, refill the brakes or replace a spark plug. The instructors are just picked from the flying school, so you generally won't get any real world advice from them either. That's not their fault, it's just how it is.

I have some.friends that did the double degree business course to "fall back on" and precisely none of them have ever fallen back on it. I mean, what kind of entry level jobs are you going to qualify for with a business degree tack-on right out of uni, that will train and mentor you, knowing that you'll bail at the first opportiunity for any flying work? It just never seemed worthwhile to me.

Ultimately you need to make the decision for yourself. Are you happy to throw all your eggs into the aviation / pilot basket and just work unskilled jobs until you get there, or do you want to set yourself up to be financially secure with an in-demand qualification or a side hustle first? I would say a business tack-on is definitely not an in demand qualification.

Thats about all I can think of for the public domain.

I'll send you a PM with another tip.

[Thumb War]

I’d suggest doing something else. Too many missed birthdays, holidays, weekends etc. in this job.

If you’re dead set on being a pilot - many of us on here were - then give yourself a backup.

If I were doing it again I’d be doing a plumbing or electrical apprenticeship while flying on the side. If thats not your thing look at degrees, as you are. As others have said, make it something you’re interested in, not just because you think it’s a “good idea”.

As for how the industry will be in 2025, nobody knows. It’ll bounce back eventually, but there will inevitably be another unforeseen event to slow the industry down.

[MSN001]

It’s worth knowing that the ATPL framework for higher educational qualifications is on par with Diploma level study. Lots of Universities allow entry onto the 3rd year of a BSc Aviation Management course if you have an ATPL. You essentially top up your ATPL with one further year of study and get a BSc. Many integrated flying schools offer this option now but you can also do it independently as a qualified pilot, there are lots of airline pilots doing this one year top up, fitting in the study around flying schedule and hours in the cruise.

If you can find training for another job that you can always fall back on when the aviation industry dips then I’d recommend doing that. Financially the tuition fees for 2 yrs of University study are saved and can be spent in a PPL/CPL. Good luck which ever route you choose.

[umop apisdn]

I'll send you a PM with another tip.

Turns out your inbox is full. Hopefully that's a good thing. You'll have to send me a PM when you clean it out if you still want it.

[Lookleft]

From the experiences that a lot of pilots have had through the last 18 months, the best non-aviation qualification is either security guard or warehouse and logistics. There seems to be a number who are getting some sort of cyber security qualification which I am told is a growth industry. If you really want to be a pilot just go and get your flying qualifications and worry about the uni bit later. By the time you are 30 you will be in an airline and can study part time to get the Uni qualification that might future proof your earning capacity.

[TukwillaFlyboy]

Do a degree in something that gives you a lifeboat.
Law, Finance etc.
Wouldn’t bother with an aviation degree. Too many eggs in one basket.
Do a real degree and your ATPL subjects at the same time. When you are in study mode they are no more than first year undergraduate level in science or engineering.
I did a Degree and flew on the weekend. Pretty busy couple of years but it paid off.
Bottom line ; you either love flying or you don’t.

[Maggie Island]

Bottom line ; you either love flying or you don’t.

This, try as best as you can to separate your passion for aviation with tertiary study. Focussing predominantly on flying (or uni) will give you a chance to maximise your growth in the domain of your choosing.

If you’re currently in high school I’d also caution you against double degrees that will take up your most important resource (time!) as a young adult. While you can always change things up before the census date it would probably be beneficial to be conservative with your workload in first year uni, particularly if you’re keen to get flying hours concurrently.

[john_tullamarine]

A variety of thoughts in this thread.

No-one can give you a magic crystal ball story tailored to your specific needs and wants - whichever way you go is for you to choose (take a gamble on, really).

However, one of the big problems is that, at your age, you don't have anything like appropriate personal experience to make a rational, considered decision so, whatever you choose remains a bit of a shot in the dark (though you, like all of us at that sort of age, considered we knew far more than we did). Particularly if no-one in your family has a tertiary or trade background, you have little chance of obtaining sound advice.

I can speak only of uni stuff as that was my path. However, don't underrate a sound trade. Many of my classmates went that route and did just fine for themselves. One close mate did that (E&I LAME) and then went on to elec engineering and a masters and has done extremely well for himself. Others screwed up badly, made a welter of things at uni, and, having nothing better to do with their time, ended up with PhDs in tech disciplines.

One of the advantages of having a couple of strings to the bow is that it gives you more options than with the "all eggs in one basket" approach. Particularly with flying as your goal, the medical is a real potential risk all through your career albeit that, at your age, one is invincible and gives little thought to any downsides to one's future - just like we all did back whenever.

One very important consideration is that you really don't want to end up in a job/career which you end up hating and then find marriage, kids, mortgages - all those time and dollar hungry things - conspire to make it very hard to opt out and start again. So try and make your first punt a good kick, as it were. Knowing a lot more now than I knew back then, I am glad that I didn't go my intended path (medicine) - I would have been driven to distraction in a few years of practice !

Another story - mine - for what little it's worth.

I completed my PPL in my final year of secondary education (I was very fortunate in that I picked up a RAAF ATC flying scholarship).

Headed off to uni to enrol in medicine. Had a coffee at the Union and, while flicking through the Handbook, came across engineering. At that stage, I had never heard of engineering - I though engineers were the guys who fixed cars at the local garage (did I mention about the problems associated with not having anyone in the extended family with a tertiary/trade background ?) Came across aero engineering - I've got a pilot's licence, thought I - bugger medicine and promptly enrolled in engineering - I still shake my head at the all of 10 minutes (more like 5 minutes) consideration I gave to a career at that point.

Started engineering and CPL in parallel (again, very lucky in that I picked up a DCA flying scholarship for the CPL). Took a year off after first year to concentrate on the CPL (had a couple of interesting jobs to support the dollar needs) and then completed the CPL in second year. Considered a double degree (eng/sci) but decided not to spend the extra year at uni (although I very nearly had enough subject credits for both by the end of fourth year).

Completed my ATPL/SCPL subjects in parallel - and, then as now, the subject difficulty was not a major problem but the time and pass mark constraints made, and continue to make, the subjects rather difficult to pass - certainly more difficult than uni exams.

Started out with an aircraft OEM in the design office and later went to a smaller airline as a tech services engineer. A bit later on, very lucky to get into Ansett (thanks, Henry) with not very many hours compared to those in my intake cohort. I have no doubt that my engineering background was material in that and that I was looked at for later useful potential. Subsequently picked up ANR (and, later, CAR) design delegations and continued to run a reasonably successful aviation design consultancy in parallel with the flying activities.

Now sort of part retired and involved with pilot theory training and operations engineering work.

Would I have changed things were I to have my time over ?

Well, in respect of this and that, I guess so, but, overall, I've had a ball and kept the wolf from the door. So I've been fortunate. I'd probably be silly enough to bin medicine, again, and sign up for aero eng, as I did back in the 60s.

Now that I've waffled on far to excess, what might be the take aways ?

First, don't skimp - there are no shortcuts unless you have a very rich, very generous daddy or you pick the right numbers in the lottery. Try and give yourself some options, considering that you will be, to a large extent, having a stab in the dark when it comes to what your likes and dislikes might be in 20 years' time.

I can only talk of my own thoughts - I have been involved in Aviation degree training - nothing wrong with those degrees overall, but they are not really marketable outside the Industry and, even then, of limited value beyond the fact that they attest to an ability to do some study and pass some exams. Whatever path you might choose needs to be marketable for some decades down the track. Be aware that, unless you can do some relevant work in parallel to the flying, the other skillset will become stale and not necessarily as useful after 10-20 years totally away from that game (unless your major was basket weaving with a minor in drinking and carousing - they will always hold their value).

If your hankering is tertiary level stuff, I would go after marketable degrees (within the constraints of your discipline preferences - there is nothing worse to me than the thought of ending up in a detested career). Degrees such as engineering, law, medicine, commerce, science (probably with some post grad work), accounting and similar, would be a starting point.

Some folks have taken this to extremes. I well recall dear old Ralph Capponi (who some of the older folk will recall with a smile on their faces). Ralph flew as an F/O with ANA (-6s, I think he said - he was a contemporary of Pontius), somehow managed to do his MB,BS along the way, qualified and practised as a GP, subsequently did electrical engineering, and ran a quite successful avionics business at Essendon for many years. A most interesting chap. Gave up the airline flying but continued to play with some nice GA toys used as avionics demonstrators. Can't recall the rego, but I flew his 685 once or twice and that was great fun.

Tertiary level stuff, though, is not the be all and end all. Nothing wrong with a good marketable trade. Trades such as plumbing, electrical, building, mechanical and similar might be worth looking at.

Main thing is to try and not put all your eggs in one basket. Especially with flying, it is one of the few careers where you are at the mercy of medical misfortune and a career can be extinguished overnight if you are unlucky enough.

So what to do right now ? Knuckle down and get the best results you can in your matriculation exams and then the world can be your oyster.

[ajax58]

If you’re currently in high school I’d also caution you against double degrees that will take up your most important resource (time!) as a young adult. While you can always change things up before the census date it would probably be beneficial to be conservative with your workload in first year uni, particularly if you’re keen to get flying hours concurrently.

That's not how the double degree programs work (at least at Swinburne). You effectively do two thirds of two degrees, with a certain number of subjects credited toward both. Your study load is four units per semester regardless of single/double degree. 32 units/four years total for a double degree or 24 units/three years for a single. Nil additional study load during semester, you just do an extra year for an extra degree. The degrees are conferred independently as well (ie: you get two bits of paper rather than one).

[lr911611]

john_tullamarine;


Wow, this is incredibly in depth thank you very much for the advice and your story! Thanks

[Stationair8]

john_tullamarine, Mr Capponi owned the Aerocommander 685 VH-BHH.

[john_tullamarine]

I had totally forgotten the rego and would have had to dig out my logbook from that period to check, so, thank you for the information. Had some incredible fun in that machine.

First jolly was a few circuits at Essendon.

Being empty with little fuel, I didn't have to go outside the airfield boundaries - poor old Ralph was a bit wide-eyed though - complained because the only time he could see the runway was on short final - I guess he had never flown either parachuting or glider towing.

[deja vu]

I think for 2020 I was paid about 6 to 7 thousand dollars per stick hour ( prior to redundancy ). :8
Can we assume you are talking about Hong Kong dollars or is that you were still being paid but doing one trip a month to CAN and back?

[Telfer86]

Some interesting advice above
I sort of like the idea of setting up plan B first , do Nursing , Radiographer , Commerce & put a few years work experience in , or trade
then go to flying . Defence tech/trade good route , great $$/Conditions compared to civil
Then see if you can get cadetship
Fair blow hard above , claims that ATPLs are harder than "any Uni" exam - please !!
ATPLs are multi guess , theory 2 or 3 weeks & are passed by year 9 drop-outs
How does the year 9 drop out suddenly reach god like status so that he can out perform those who completed year 12 (with advanced maths/physics)
& went off to engineering school (almost always the hardest degree on campus)
Got some news for you guys ATPL aerodynamics is bubsy babytalk aerodynamics , or does actually teach you how to design , build & test an airliner (like an eng degree does)
Best off armed with the facts and reality

[No Idea Either]

Telfer

like John Tullamarine, I did the old ‘senior commercial’ full written style exam which was scrupulously marked by a very ‘eager’ departmental examiner…….I won’t say it was harder but it was certainly ‘different’ to the current style. Having had a fair bit of exposure to the current style over the years, if I were to do it again, I would prefer the current style….more ‘convenient’.

[Telfer86]

Okay the older style was harder & tougher , got it
It just seemed a bit ridiculous to suggest ATPL is in the same league as an Engineering degree (& I am talking about first year)
I read recently a former UK cadet stating the 6 month EASA ATPL is like doing a three year degree in six months
She obviously believes that , but come get real , get your hand off it - you are dealing with high school grads - you can only do so much with them first year out of HS
Back to topic
Aviation degrees way too much of a risk atm, all eggs in one basket in an industry which is devastated & nobody knows when it will recover & what the structural changes might be
IMHO I would say other degree plus a few years solid work exp , or trade/technician & work exp - consider ADF
The one exception might be a cadetship , such as Rex which articulates directly to a job
Even the QF Cadetship looks dicey atm - QF began talking about it in 2016 - took 3 years to get it going - missed the boat

[john_tullamarine]

I don't think that anyone with any competent knowledge is suggesting that the work level and difficulty for an undergraduate degree is on a par with the ATPL. Those who might do so surely have not done both and are speaking from a position of some ignorance.

However, the typical uni degree subject examination is touched by that wonderful old feature known as the "zero shifting theorem" whereas the ATPL is a hard line examination with reasonably tight time limits (in the main) and a relatively high pass mark.

I read aero eng and had subject results ranging from pass to HD and I did the old ATPL/SCPL subjects. As well, and as required/tasked, I teach all the various licence subjects these days. I know which exams were the harder to pass on the day. Nothing much to do with technical content and all to do with examination pressure on the candidate.

Note that I don't suggest that this should change for the pilot exams as part of their purpose is to put the candidate under a bit of stress. So far as content is concerned I could put a reasoned case for raising its level of technical rigour but that is another discussion over a beer or two.

There is no aim to make engineers (or any other discipline) of pilots. As John Farley put it, the pilot needs to know the ins and outs of putting the theory into cockpit practice (although it might take some time to locate the thread in which he made that observation).

[MrScooter]

How does the year 9 drop out suddenly reach god like status so that he can out perform those who completed year 12 (with advanced maths/physics)
& went off to engineering school (almost always the hardest degree on campus)

The same way your "year 9 dropout" example might get a higher IQ score. Do you think everything in life is so black and white?

Ir911611,

You'll get many different opinions, but from my experience john_tullamarine has made an excellent post. You might want to be a pilot, but do you want to live a pilot's life? Do you know what a pilot's life looks like? Be honest with yourself. If you do, that's great.

As to the state of the industry in 2025, no one knows. But it doesn't matter as much as you might think because you're in it for many booms and busts. Plenty of pilots having their bad luck later in their career as we speak, which is arguably worse. You may not be aware that aviation is seniority based. So, you literally get a number when you start at a company and have to wait to be next on the list for any change in position. Then you have to be good enough. Change companies and you start again. It's been debated and generally decided that this is the better system - but it is something to be aware of. Personally, I'd go RAAF. Best of luck, and whatever path you choose, enjoy the journey.

[Gnadenburg]

Can we assume you are talking about Hong Kong dollars or is that you were still being paid but doing one trip a month to CAN and back?


No. This was Australian dollars. Did 90 to 100 hours for the year. Part of the redundancy component tax free so coupled with the 15% tax in HK it was a lot of money in your pocket.

[TukwillaFlyboy]

Telfer86

No need to be snarky.
I’ve done both and while university subjects might be intellectually more demanding you can sneak past with 51%.
Aviation exams are speed and accuracy with a pass mark of 80%. At least they were when I did them a million years ago.
They are not to be taken lightly.
Back in the day I knew engineering students who took several goes to pass ATPL Flight Planning.

[FLGOFF]

Not to mention that a typical university will reward you with consequential marks in an exam if your general methods are correct but your final answer doesn't add up. Spend 15-20 minutes on a flight plan, stuff up a final calculation leaving your landing weight x kg out and you've lost all 5 marks and wasted a decent amount of time in what is already a very time critical exam.

Yes, the content covered in your average ATPL exam is fairly basic, but the conditions and nature associated with some of the exams can make them quite challenging, regardless of one's education or intelligence. This is especially true considering you might be undertaking these exams whilst trying to juggle a flying job/flight training. I completed a Bachelor of Aviation and I remember one period at the pointy end where within the space of a couple months, I was trying to complete my MECIR, had 3 full days a week at uni, whilst also completing multiple ATPL exams. My workload was considerably higher during this period than it was during year 12 when I was studying 2 advanced maths, chem, physics etc and it was considerably higher than any of my friends studying engineering who seemed to still have time to party on the weekends. I had an instructor tell me at the time that if you failed some of your ATPL exams, it would be a blackmark against you when going for an interview at airline down the line. You can imagine the feeling of dread when you take an exam, hit the submit button, wait anxiously for the result to load, only to see you've failed by 1%, you then have to immediately put it to the side because you've got to get strapped in for your final flight before your IR test at 0730 the next morning in a flight that will cost a couple thousand if you muck up.

Some people definitely may have an easier road than others, perhaps that's due to their superior aptitude, or maybe it's simply due to luck and/or not having to worry about finances. But I've got enormous respect for pilots in general because you have to invest a considerable amount of time and money for a career that is full of risk and completely up and down (no pun intended). Many people still look at pilots with rose coloured glasses and see it as a cushy overpaid job, you've also got the flight simmers who think it's all a piece of cake because they know how to configure an A330 autopilot and watch it autoland whilst sitting in their chair eating ice cream.

Anyway. There's some great advice on this thread. You'll be making an important decision and you really won't know whether or not it's the right one until the future arrives with the gift of hindsight. If all you want to do is fly, you don't want to wait and you're prepared to do the mopping up later if things don't quite work out as you hoped, go ahead and do an aviation degree. The courses are not all that well run from my experience and what I've heard from others, most of the universities just want to get you in, push you through and get you out in the shortest time possible so you can free up a space for the next kid. That being said, I don't think an aviation degree is useless outside of aviation, I've found it to be a talking point in many interviews and there are recruiters who realise there are transferrable skills that you will have, you've just got to make sure you've got other things going on in your life outside aviation.

[john_tullamarine]

you've also got the flight simmers who think it's all a piece of cake because they know how to configure an A330 autopilot and watch it autoland whilst sitting in their chair eating ice cream.

Sometimes the case.

On the other hand, I can tell a tale. Years ago, I had a couple of aircraft field service reps (LAME background guys) working for me - both keen flight simmers. During one period I was also doing some 733/4 sim endorsement training work on the side and, one night, invited the boys along (with the pre-arranged concurrence of the pilot trainees). During the coffee break, I gave the pilots a rest from my usual discussion workload and gave my colleagues a run in the sim.

Now these guys had never flown an aircraft and their total exposure to the Boeing was the previous couple of hours watching. With motion off, raw data and hand flown, both of them were able to do a more than quite passable circuit and landing. I was both surprised and impressed. Not all simmers deserve the would be, if could be, tag, I suggest.

(ZR - methinks your view is a tad jaundiced ?)

[TukwillaFlyboy]

you've also got the flight simmers who think it's all a piece of cake because they know how to configure an A330 autopilot and watch it autoland whilst sitting in their chair eating ice cream.

Sometimes the case.

On the other hand, I can tell a tale. Years ago, I had a couple of aircraft field service reps (LAME background guys) working for me - both keen flight simmers. During one period I was also doing some 733/4 sim endorsement training work on the side and, one night, invited the boys along (with the pre-arranged concurrence of the pilot trainees). During the coffee break, I gave the pilots a rest from my usual discussion workload and gave my colleagues a run in the sim.

Now these guys had never flown an aircraft and their total exposure to the Boeing was the previous couple of hours watching. With motion off, raw data and hand flown, both of them were able to do a more than quite passable circuit and landing. I was both surprised and impressed. Not all simmers deserve the would be, if could be, tag, I suggest.

(ZR - methinks your view is a tad jaundiced ?)

Best sim. Pilots I’ve ever seen were Sim. Technicians !

[Telfer86]

A lot of information here , some quite helpful
What is the final verdict of everyone
I would say "no" - get an alternative qualification/skill whether degree/trade & put some work experience on top of it
Exception would be if you got ADF Pilot (preferably via ADFA degree first) or cadetship that leads directly to job - possibly only Rex ?

[lucille]

Interesting that some people think the old SCPL exams were “difficult”. My experience was entirely the opposite. Conversely, a few years later I did a science degree majoring in Computer Science and found it to be quite a struggle at times. Not the walk in the park that the suite of CPL/SCPL theory exams were.

For the OP, my 2 cents is to forget any of the so called aviation degrees. They are mostly dodgy, money making lurks for the institutions that provide them.

Apart from that, there is no single perfect pathway to a successful flying career. Degree, trade qualifications or neither all seem to work (or not work).

I’ve become ever more negative about the future of flying as a career. For instance, Cathay is actively studying the option of single pilot operation in cruise, it’s unlikely they are alone. This is the tip of a very nasty iceberg for future pilots.

[Gnadenburg]

But hang on. The ADF is not just a job. Our security situation is deteriorating and our potential adversaries are at near peer level, meaning mass casualties on our side in the event of conflict. Be prepared to honour what you signed up for and it could be grim.

[MrScooter]

But hang on. The ADF is not just a job. Our security situation is deteriorating and our potential adversaries are at near peer level, meaning mass casualties on our side in the event of conflict. Be prepared to honour what you signed up for and it could be grim.

Yes, a very good point not to be taken lightly. One wouldn't join the ADF just for a job. But for the right people that might be a positive.

[Telfer86]

Could be "grim" as ADF Pilot
All very high drama
ADF haven't lost a pilot in combat for over 50 years
Be so careful sugar puffs what you wish for , risk , risk , on my God the level of the incredible risk
Be so careful of that incredible dangerous risk

[TukwillaFlyboy]

Could be "grim" as ADF Pilot
All very high drama
ADF haven't lost a pilot in combat for over 50 years
Be so careful sugar puffs what you wish for , risk , risk , on my God the level of the incredible risk
Be so careful of that incredible dangerous risk

Whoa………..
Thats gotta be pretty close to trolling , doesn’t it ?

[TukwillaFlyboy]

I have had the enormous privilege over my life of meeting and talking at length to;
-A Battle of Britain Spitfire Pilot
-a Spitfire Pilot who fought the Japanese over Darwin.
-Several Bomber Command Lancaster Pilots
-Numerous Vietnam era Mirage and chopper Pilots.
-and many more.

Anybody who signs up for the ADF without understanding the concepts of duty and putting yourself in harms way to carry out the mission is delusional.
And totally disrespectful to those that have gone before.

[Gnadenburg]

Could be "grim" as ADF Pilot
All very high drama
ADF haven't lost a pilot in combat for over 50 years
Be so careful sugar puffs what you wish for , risk , risk , on my God the level of the incredible risk
Be so careful of that incredible dangerous risk

I missed this. My point was, remember what you signed up for. There's plenty of chat that our defence doctrine has moved away from dropping LGB's on Toyotas from the Flight Levels, toward a possibility of near-peer conflict in our region. The last time we fought China, 77 Squadron lost many, many pilots. The last time we lost a combat aircraft, the missiles came from CCP supported logistics.

People can do their own research of Western combat pilots in conflict post-Vietnam, who shirked their duty. Perhaps they joined up just to learn to fly?

[junior.VH-LFA]

Joining the ADF now just to fly would be naive at best - especially with a 14.5 year obligation.

[gulliBell]

...Exception would be if you got ADF Pilot (preferably via ADFA degree first)...

I disagree on that. If you want to be a military pilot three years at ADFA is a waste of time, plus there is always the risk of losing your pilot medical standard over that time and getting bumped off your pilot course (and I say that as being an ADFA graduate). If you want to be a military pilot, bypass ADFA and go full throttle at being a military pilot. You can always come back to ADFA and study a degree or be sponsored by the military at a civilian university later on in your career.