BA Cityflyer-3

[richardwpprn]

With Fridays very likely to be a very popular WFH day, are BACF likely to have more leisure flights on Fridays in the winter timetable?

[WHBM]

This was ever the way on BACF, which the schedule reflected; the demand was different on different weekdays. A lot of travelling consultants went out Sunday evening, spent Monday to Thursday with the client, returned Thursday evening (peak fares), and did Friday in their home office. Well known that MPs do the same (there were always a couple from Scotland/N Ireland in the departure lounge on Thursday evenings). There were other combinations. Business day returns were less usual on Fridays than on other days. The departure peak in the evening was a couple of hours earlier (people worked until 5.30, and got home at 9pm. But not on Fridays). Etc. BACF knew their market very well and have always been better than some others at differential scheduling on different weekdays.

[richardwpprn]

I've been at LCY departure airside at 5.30pm on Fridays in November 19 and it was very busy with business travellers, I really don't see that level of business travel returning, BACF may have to park or do more leisure flying.

[BA318]

The network was already heading that way. In 2019 LCY stats showed leisure had overtaken business for the majority of travel at the airport.

At the moment however it’s impossible to guess the schedule next week let alone next season.

[WHBM]

Yes indeed, there is everyone who has come over Monday through Thursday who are all going home. There's also apparent "business" travellers who are going off for the weekend, who have come straight from the office. A bit like those in suits at London theatres nowadays. Nobody "dresses up" for the theatre any more, but some come straight from their day job.

[CabinCrewe]

Pre-covid, I am not sure I can convince myself that was my experience?

[Alteagod]

I have to say a considerable number of passengers on the BHD legs appear to be more industrial in there dress code as opposed to business suit types.

[tictack67]

Good in-depth factual analysis with evidence, well done.Clothes means nothing to ticket price paid. I've been in a suit BA LCY to EDI paid £39 Handbaggage only.

I was on Club World to JFK with BA in Jan '19.
Guy in front was in sports shorts and flip-flops.

[ATNotts]

Very few people wear business suits these days. Dress is no longer a marker for the wealthy or influential.

[Alteagod]

You miss my point

[CabinCrewe]

Sorry my point was in relation to ‘theatre goers’. I should have quoted.

[richardwpprn]

BA318

I'd look at Fri LCY-ACE-LCY and possibly a sat/sun LCY-ACE-SOU-ACE-LCY

[BA318]

Canary Islands have never been done from LCY so would be a first. The focus has been on the Balearics and Greek islands previously. I’d suspect maybe Malta or Madeira might be possible.

[cavokblues]

ACE might be pushing it from LCY, can it be done to be commercially viable? JMK occasionally sees pax and bags offloaded and that's 200 miles or so closer.

[davidjohnson6]

Would ACE from LCY be possible on a winter-only basis instead of summer, or would the runway still be just a bit too short for anything profitable ?

[richardwpprn]

BA318

Yes MLA, FNC sound a better idea.

[Del Prado]

<Sorry for the off topic>

I’ve been looking for EGC-SOU at the end of next month (22/08) and although the outbound (SOU-EGC) is scheduled, I can’t get a ticket for return leg that day.
I’m pretty sure it’s not full, any ideas why the tickets aren’t on sale/available?

[Snr]

Look like that aircraft then heads to LCY rather than SOU. Only one arrival from LCY into EGC, but two departures. Will be to have the aircraft in London for first thing Monday morning.

[Del Prado]

Thanks! Hadn’t thought of that.

[richardwpprn]

It seems the planned Tuesday summer W routing LCY-EGC-SOU-EGC-LCY has now gone.

[GLCYZ]

Over the last few months a lot of cabin crew have left the business, leaving the company with potentially not enough cabin crew to cover the winter flying programme.

All cabin crew are to be recalled from furlough by the end of September, part time crew will be encouraged to increase hours to 75% or 100%, unpaid leave requests suspended until the end of March, and potentially there will be a recruitment campaign over the winter for new cabin crew in time for Spring.

[CabinCrewe]

im guessing BACF will ditch BHD-GLA when it ends at the end of Aug? Presumably a hurried new ATR operator may take it on?

[tictack67]

It doesn't appear to be ending in August.

Glasgow and Leeds double daily most days in Sept and bookable to end of October. Exeter operates most days to October end

All loaded with BA flight numbers and E190 a/c of course could be to enable bookings to switch to Aer Lingus regional if it gets going.

[stewyb]

Would imagine Emerald will try and commence ops at the beginning of October on the Aer Lingus Regional routes with BACF in particular removing themselves when their schedules end in late September. Aer Lingus mainline however may continue to operate some connections initially due to lack of ATR’s and crew training!

[CabinCrewe]

And by all accounts a change in scheduling just today…

[GCILover]

Does anyone know how the GCI - LCY & EDI routes are performing?

[GLCYZ]

Thanks to draconian cuts to cabin crew terms and lack of pay review, cabin crew have been leaving in such volume that emergency meetings with Unite will now take place, to address the staff retention issues.

[CabinCrewe]

Looks like BHD-GLA dwindling day-on day. Was never going to last IMO.

[BAladdy]

dwindling in what way?

[GLCYZ]

The route isn’t dwindling in terms of passengers; BACF has a severe shortage of cabin crew meaning November and December schedules have been pruned accordingly.

[richardwpprn]

It seems BOH-ACE is slightly shorter than LCY-JTR, but TUI have a BOH-ACE service.
LCY-CHQ is also shorter than LCY-JTR.
Good to see LCY-SKG is a new route.

[tictack67]

Looks like BHD-GLA dwindling day-on day. Was never going to last IMO.

Due to shortage of crew.

[biddedout]

I remember a time in BA Con days when they were cancelling 25+ flights a day due to Cabin Crew being loaned to Mainline to operate 767 LH flights. Management couldn't see what was wrong with that. I hope they are not playing that game again.

[jmdavies86]

Looks like BHD-GLA dwindling day-on day. Was never going to last IMO.

It's worth remembering that BACF only stepped in to cover some of the routes from/to BHD due to the demise of Stobart Air.

I don't think these routes were ever planned to last long-term and you'll likely see a carefully orchestrated transition over to Emerald Airlines once they've obtained their UK AOC and operating licence, which is expected to happen in June according to ch-aviation (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/111642-irelands-emerald-airlines-to-open-belfast-city-base).

BACF will then only serve BHD from/to LCY, probably with an EI codeshare.

[PC767]

I remember a time in BA Con days when they were cancelling 25+ flights a day due to Cabin Crew being loaned to Mainline to operate 767 LH flights. Management couldn't see what was wrong with that. I hope they are not playing that game again.
BA are terribly short there as well, particularly cabin crew. Struggling to recruit on the new terms.Same at the new LGW low cost operation, where the only thing low cost is the cabin crew renumeration. Talk that BA is subbing flights to Iberia Express and Vueling.

[Buster the Bear]

Vueling are to base 3x A320 at Gatwick for Summer 2022.
Iberia Express are to base 4x A320 at Gatwick for Summer 2022.

[richardwpprn]

I remember a time in BA Con days when they were cancelling 25+ flights a day due to Cabin Crew being loaned to Mainline to operate 767 LH flights. Management couldn't see what was wrong with that. I hope they are not playing that game again.

There's a reason EU reg ec 261:2004 was introduced.

[GLCYZ]

I predict a turbulent year for industrial relations. Cabin crew are leaving faster than they can be replaced, pilots are desperately unhappy and have lost all goodwill towards the company, and for the first time ever pay cabin crew pay negotiations will be done in conjunction with mainline fleets.

[PC767]

I predict a turbulent year for industrial relations. Cabin crew are leaving faster than they can be replaced, pilots are desperately unhappy and have lost all goodwill towards the company, and for the first time ever pay cabin crew pay negotiations will be done in conjunction with mainline fleets.
which is not a benefit after the massacre of LHR cabin crew pay.

[SKOJB]

Also notice some removal of E190 fleet. Looks like 2 returned to lessor and another 6 parked up. Appreciate its winter season with smaller workloads but are they intentionally reducing the fleet or as has been suggested, being caused by staffing issues?

[inOban]

Pre COVID there were up to. 3 early bird flights from EDI to LCY. Now there's no more than 1. I think that indicates the level of demand.

[BA318]

BACF is so short of crew they are now asking pilots and office staff to work as cabin crew.

https://onemileatatime.com/news/british-airways-pilots-work-as-flight-attendants/?utm_campaign=coschedule&utm_source=facebook_page&utm_medium=One%20Mile%20at%20a%20Time&utm_content=British%20Airways%20Asks%20Pilots%20To%20Work%20 As%20Flight%20Attendants&fbclid=IwAR2hjnbcMHLbz7pvwI4RFOMxrHvLJL4wKNJ8ZmCrTwox7Ewuh1X lthpSrWE

[WHBM]

One wonders if they are going to be paid for cabin crewing, in addition to their current role pay.

Colleague long ago got a junior management role at a major city bus company. It was standard/expected there, as they would commonly run short of drivers in the evening rush hour, or at weekends, that once they finished their day job in the office analysing revenue or whatever they would head for the garage and take a bus duty for a couple of hours, or at weekends for a full shift. This was all paid at the standard drivers' hourly rates. Apparently normal in that industry, a first thing as a management trainee was to get a bus drivers' licence.

But I don't like this "being given basic training". Surely, as BA regularly reinforces that cabin crew are there primarily for safety, it should be full training. Is breach of that not a breach of their AOC. And if you have to go through full training, why not recruit new staff and put them through the same. What happened to all the crew that used to work out of Gatwick ?

[tictack67]

One wonders if they are going to be paid for cabin crewing, in addition to their current role pay.

Colleague long ago got a junior management role at a major city bus company. It was standard/expected there, as they would commonly run short of drivers in the evening rush hour, or at weekends, that once they finished their day job in the office analysing revenue or whatever they would head for the garage and take a bus duty for a couple of hours, or at weekends for a full shift. This was all paid at the standard drivers' hourly rates. Apparently normal in that industry, a first thing as a management trainee was to get a bus drivers' licence.

But I don't like this "being given basic training". Surely, as BA regularly reinforces that cabin crew are there primarily for safety, it should be full training. Is breach of that not a breach of their AOC. And if you have to go through full training, why not recruit new staff and put them through the same. What happened to all the crew that used to work out of Gatwick ?

Basic I think they mean necessary.

Much of the current cabin Crew training involves other non essential things, eg learning about the brand, how to read a roster, exec club, team building excercise, sales techniques, grooming standards, personnel matter ID cards

[GayFriendly]

I work for a Train Operating Company and its standard practice for all office based management grades to operate as Train Managers when required due to sickness, staff shortages etc. They are safety critical trained but not revenue or ticketing.

Being former cabin crew myself, spending a flight in the cabin as opposed to behind a locked door will give a very good reality check for some pilots on the stresses and strains of being face to face for hours on end with the SLF!

[WHBM]

I recall in the 1980s a lengthy baggage handling strike at Heathrow that BA office staff got stuck in outside their normal office duties, and some made considerable amounts of money from lengthy shifts there.

[richardwpprn]

Flightradar24 has G-LCYW doing lots of flights this weekend starting with BA2227 visiting PMI, JER, IOM, GCI. Are some of these training flights?

[WHBM]

Flightradar24 has G-LCYW doing lots of flights this weekend starting with BA2227 visiting PMI, JER, IOM, GCI. Are some of these training flights?
Normal. With LCY closed Saturday lunchtime to Sunday lunchtime, an aircraft heads from there for Palma early on Saturday, then operates several holiday flights from there to these other UK points before returning to LCY on Sunday afternoon when it reopens. There's a comparable operation with another LCY aircraft which runs flights from Southampton at the same time.

[KindaUnstuck]

Flightradar24 has G-LCYW doing lots of flights this weekend starting with BA2227 visiting PMI, JER, IOM, GCI. Are some of these training flights?

They are charter flights for a local CI/IOM tour operator called FlyDirect (CI Travel Group) offering 7 night holidays from JER, GCI and IOM to PMI.

This is the first year of the IOM and GCI flights, certainly in GCI they appear to be doing pretty well if what is being reported is correct due to people preferring to fly direct even if it costs more than connecting through the UK post-Covid.

FlyDirect also bring in BA CityFlyer for their JER-AGP flights which operate in May/ October

[richardwpprn]

Thanks KindaUnstuck.

[richardwpprn]

Normal. With LCY closed Saturday lunchtime to Sunday lunchtime, an aircraft heads from there for Palma early on Saturday...

BA2227 is a Friday evening flight.

[Jerbourg]

BA/CFE are operating sheduled flights GCI to EDI & GCI to LCY this summer season, I have yet to see any publicity for either of the routes, would be a shame if the loads don't live up to expectations as the travelling Guernsey public are keen for more operators/routes from the island.

[KindaUnstuck]

BA/CFE are operating sheduled flights GCI to EDI & GCI to LCY this summer season, I have yet to see any publicity for either of the routes, would be a shame if the loads don't live up to expectations as the travelling Guernsey public are keen for more operators/routes from the island.

I think the Edinburgh will suffer only being weekly this year, I know quite a few people who went for long weekends last year but have said they would have gone again but a week was too long. The Aurigny long weekend flights to EDI in August sold out within a few hours so the demand may still be there.

Hopefully LCY will do ok, would be great if something more came of it.

[mikkie4]

SEN used to do alright with divertions on a Saturday due to LCY being closed

[WHBM]

SEN used to do alright with diversions on a Saturday due to LCY being closed
Diversions are of course an expensive nuisance, but Southend was the next best thing, both for operators and passengers. I don't quite know what Southend did to make BACF not welcome, but now it seems Gatwick is the diversion of choice, while Southend's new terminal is deserted.

[DC3 Dave]

Diversions are of course an expensive nuisance, but Southend was the next best thing, both for operators and passengers. I don't quite know what Southend did to make BACF not welcome, but now it seems Gatwick is the diversion of choice, while Southend's new terminal is deserted.

There are no commercial flights from SEN on Saturdays at the moment so they are in no position to handle diversions from LCY. I note the previously fairly regular BACF training flights are not happening either.

[WHBM]

There are no commercial flights from SEN on Saturdays at the moment so they are in no position to handle diversions from LCY.
There were no scheduled services at all at Southend 20 years ago when I was regular GA into there. Maybe just one on summer Saturdays from and to Jersey, which I never saw. This didn't stop them handling any and all LCY diversions, they were welcomed.

[richardwpprn]

BA7029 LCY-FAO leaves 19:30 on Fridays this summer, looks like it's positioning for FlyDirect flights.

[rog747]

BA7029 LCY-FAO leaves 19:30 on Fridays this summer, look, like it's positioning for FlyDirect flights.

It is on sale to buy tickets and yes it seems to be a handy movement to get an aircraft over to JER for their weekend of charters which include FAO, plus AGP PMI IBZ and SPU.
This one night stops FAO.
Likewise a similar move back on Sunday evening FAO-LCY
BACF also fly for them from GCI and IOM too.

There will also be similar movements to get aircraft to SOU for the weekend leisure flights, and also up North as well as they fly for TUI Holidays from NCL EDI and GLA.

[nguba]

BACF launching one weekly flight between LGW & EDI from late May. I'm guessing it's just to utilise aircraft, but I wish they could make something more of it:

https://twitter.com/SeanM1997/status/1771244341748437503

[Doors to...]

They did exactly something similar several years ago LCY-MAN-LCY up to MAN Sat and back to LCY Sun, great way of trying to generate some revenue when getting the a/c where it needs to be for Summer flights.

[WHBM]

They did exactly something similar several years ago LCY-MAN-LCY up to MAN Sat and back to LCY Sun, great way of trying to generate some revenue when getting the a/c where it needs to be for Summer flights.
You have to be careful with such oddball "revenue", inevitably low, that the additional costs of provision compared to an empty leg don't outweigh things, particularly when operations are disrupted and the positioning aircraft needs on the day to come from a different start point.

[Link Kilo]

They did exactly something similar several years ago LCY-MAN-LCY up to MAN Sat and back to LCY Sun, great way of trying to generate some revenue when getting the a/c where it needs to be for Summer flights.
This isn't "exactly something similar" though as the schedule shows the aircraft arriving at LGW from EDI and then leaving LGW to return to EDI 45 minutes later.

[richardwpprn]

BACF launching one weekly flight between LGW & EDI from late May. I'm guessing it's just to utilise aircraft, but I wish they could make something more of it:

https://twitter.com/SeanM1997/status/1771244341748437503

Looks like a feeder flight for BA LGW long hauls.

[BA318]

Looks like a feeder flight for BA LGW long hauls.

once a week on an E190 isn’t a feeder flight.

[lfc84]

BA Euroflyer is LGW so I think the tweet has caused some confusion.

BA Citiflyer is LCY. It was Citiflyer that did the MAN flights

[Link Kilo]

BA Euroflyer is LGW so I think the tweet has caused some confusion.

BA Citiflyer is LCY. It was Citiflyer that did the MAN flights

In what way has the tweet "caused some confusion" given that it states - correctly - that it'll be BA Cityflyer that will be operating the flights (as ba.com confirms)?
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/953x540/screenshot_2024_03_23_13_56_12_4bde250eae3cf222b58cc3a43b10c b4e7af94d53.png

[cavokblues]

It's just what BACF do. Trying to utilise an aircraft Sunday morning rather than it being sat on the ground at EDI.

A nice little round trip to Gatwick, before a lunch time return to City airport, landing no doubt shortly after it reopens.

Also, a short 3 sector day to get that crew back to home base rather than having to fly them back on a BACF flight or via LHR and a long taxi.....

[lfc84]

In what way has the tweet "caused some confusion" given that it states - correctly - that it'll be BA Cityflyer that will be operating the flights (as ba.com confirms)?
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/953x540/screenshot_2024_03_23_13_56_12_4bde250eae3cf222b58cc3a43b10c b4e7af94d53.png
Ah ok

[tictack67]

once a week on an E190 isn’t a feeder flight.

A Feeder flight does not have to have frequency, merely connectivity.

These are similar to GLA-LGW to take connectors down and bring inbounds back.

This is not about getting the A/C back to LCY as it's returning to Edinburgh, suspect this maybe start of an expansion to daily kike GLA-LGW morning drop and collection of Florida/Caribbean Px

[cavokblues]

A Feeder flight does not have to have frequency, merely connectivity.

These are similar to GLA-LGW to take connectors down and bring inbounds back.

This is not about getting the A/C back to LCY as it's returning to Edinburgh, suspect this maybe start of an expansion to daily kike GLA-LGW morning drop and collection of Florida/Caribbean Px

I suspect the aircraft doing this flight will be the one doing the Saturday flights between EDI - San Sebastian and EDI - Olbia. Therefore, it would just be sat on the ground Sunday morning until LCY reopens, so I suspect right now it's simply more about giving it something to do rather than any real focus on feeding long haul flights or leading to anything else.

[tictack67]

I suspect right now it's simply more about giving it something to do rather than any real focus on feeding long haul flights or leading to anything else.

BACF have been proactive re LCY closure, why not fit in a BCN or PMI on Sundday morning, Other than a trial or feeder why else fly a once a week LGW sector, perhaps a cruise connection to LH

We shall see, what we will see.

​​​​​​watch this space. .. ...

[richardwpprn]

A Feeder flight does not have to have frequency, merely connectivity.

These are similar to GLA-LGW to take connectors down and bring inbounds back.

This is not about getting the A/C back to LCY as it's returning to Edinburgh, suspect this maybe start of an expansion to daily kike GLA-LGW morning drop and collection of Florida/Caribbean Px

The flight feeds perfectly into LGW-MCO and offers MCO-LGW-EDI very well.

[richardwpprn]

The E190s are going to EXT at the moment, is this for seating reconfiguration?