Fly The Aircraft...Never Give Up!

[SASless]

When confronted with difficult situations especially those involving Flight Control Malfunctions or any situation not trained for or even discussed during training.....the key to survival is never giving up and "flying" the aircraft using whatever resources you have available.

One such example....a Chinook decides upon its own to yaw left then roll inverted...and refusing to allow the Pilots to move the flight controls to combat the actions of the aircraft in a "normal" manner.

It and the crew survived.

The Crew's Accounts of the event......

http://www.chinook-helicopter.com/Flight_Fax/1998/Flight_Fax_May_1998.pdf

[etudiant]

When confronted with difficult situations especially those involving Flight Control Malfunctions or any situation not trained for or even discussed during training.....the key to survival is never giving up and "flying" the aircraft using whatever resources you have available.

One such example....a Chinook decides upon its own to yaw left then roll inverted...and refusing to allow the Pilots to move the flight controls to combat the actions of the aircraft in a "normal" manner.

It and the crew survived.

The Crew's Accounts of the event......

http://www.chinook-helicopter.com/Flight_Fax/1998/Flight_Fax_May_1998.pdf

Just wow!

Did the accident board uncover the source of the problem?
By the account, this was a top tier crew which went the extra mile to be sure they had a fully serviceable aircraft, yet they were almost killed by it.

[brett s]

Contaminated flight control hydraulic fluid is what I remember.

On a side note, this is the same airframe you see in the ground resonance video.

[SASless]

Another good account of a serious problem is that of the Gulf of Mexico 412 Crew that had a Tail Rotor failure at night while in cruise....went inverted...and eventually made a safe landing with everyone walking or swimming away.

[Hot and Hi]

Impressive.

[helonorth]

Another good account of a serious problem is that of the Gulf of Mexico 412 Crew that had a Tail Rotor failure at night while in cruise....went inverted...and eventually made a safe landing with everyone walking or swimming away.
If you can walk on water, what the hell are you doing offshore.

[SASless]

The right question is if you cannot walk on water....what are you doing offshore?

[helonorth]

I met a few people offshore that thought they walked on water but I never saw one do it.

[Non-PC Plod]

Anyone can walk on water......for a very, very short time!

[SLFMS]

When confronted with difficult situations especially those involving Flight Control Malfunctions or any situation not trained for or even discussed during training.....the key to survival is never giving up and "flying" the aircraft using whatever resources you have available.

One such example....a Chinook decides upon its own to yaw left then roll inverted...and refusing to allow the Pilots to move the flight controls to combat the actions of the aircraft in a "normal" manner.

It and the crew survived.

The Crew's Accounts of the event......

http://www.chinook-helicopter.com/Flight_Fax/1998/Flight_Fax_May_1998.pdf


SASless what an amazing story. Surely other than the failure itself everything went right for them. You have to wonder if the overspeed reduced the ROD to reasonable value. Perhaps if they were higher they would have had another roller coaster. Astounding they walked away.
Was it Bob Hoover quoted as saying “fly through the crash as far as possible” ? Or something close to that. That is one I like to remember too.

[Bergerie1]

SASless,

Thanks. Not only an excellent example of never giving up, but also, a wonderfully lucid description from each of them about what it felt like. It is not often that one reads about such vividly described perceptions of what it was like at the time.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Walking on water is easy it’s just the depth that might catch you out.

[ascj]

Bob Hoover wrote ' fly as far into the crash as you can'

[helonorth]

Walking on water is easy it’s just the depth that might catch you out.
Walking in water is not the same as walking on water.

[ShyTorque]

There was another “interesting” story that I recall, about a British army Lynx helicopter that snagged a cable above a Norwegian Fjord. It was suspended inverted by its skids for a while, before falling free and being flown away. Late ‘70s or early ‘80s I think and probably featured in “Airclues”.

[Hot and Hi]

There was another “interesting” story that I recall, about a British army Lynx helicopter that snagged a cable above a Norwegian Fjord. It was suspended inverted by its skids for a while, before falling free and being flown away. Late ‘70s or early ‘80s I think and probably featured in “Airclues”.
The benefits of a rigid rotorhead.

[SASless]

During my time in the Army National Guard flying Kiowa's and Huey's....at an Annual Safety Training Weekend....we were treated to a very fine presentation by a USAF Lockheed T-33 Pilot who had survived a crash that occurred following an engine failure below a safe Ejection Height.....which forced the Two Man Crew to ride it down.

They crashed.....like really crashed....hitting trees....catching fire....causing both broken bones and severe burns....before fortunately (in his words) winding up submerged into a River.

He reckoned the total immersion of the cockpit section in the water extinguished the fire that was causing him such grievous injuries....and they were severe.

He talked of flying the aircraft as far into the crash as possible but at the same time bracing oneself as possible to prevent head/face/extremity injuries....and never giving up.

He emphasized the need to wear your equipment and clothing in a manner to cover all your skin possible....wear stout footwear that covers your feet and ankles....and the use of Flame Retardant clothing and never wear nylon or similar manmade fabrics.

I wish I had a video of his presentation as it was one of the very best I have ever attended.....as when he made a point...such as always wearing gloves.....he held up his hands and noted that day he was not....and one peek at what was left of his hands proved his point.

My own experience with a severe fire in flight and the benefit I got out of gloves and Nomex have made me an advocate for such practices.

I stil have my hands today only because I had Leather/Nomes gloves on.....which very much reduced the severity of my burns.

Same for my legs...which due to the construction of the nomes trouser with the multiple pockets and multiple layers of Nomex Cloth....those burns were localized pretty much to where there were only single layers of cloth.

Side note: Nomex does nothing re stopping bullets....proved that along with the previous aforementioned benefits in reducing thermal injuries.

One thing such events reminds you of is that "It" can happen to you and not just to others!

[etudiant]

During my time in the Army National Guard flying Kiowa's and Huey's....at an Annual Safety Training Weekend....we were treated to a very fine presentation by a USAF Lockheed T-33 Pilot who had survived a crash that occurred following an engine failure below a safe Ejection Height.....which forced the Two Man Crew to ride it down.

They crashed.....like really crashed....hitting trees....catching fire....causing both broken bones and severe burns....before fortunately (in his words) winding up submerged into a River.

He reckoned the total immersion of the cockpit section in the water extinguished the fire that was causing him such grievous injuries....and they were severe.

He talked of flying the aircraft as far into the crash as possible but at the same time bracing oneself as possible to prevent head/face/extremity injuries....and never giving up.

He emphasized the need to wear your equipment and clothing in a manner to cover all your skin possible....wear stout footwear that covers your feet and ankles....and the use of Flame Retardant clothing and never wear nylon or similar manmade fabrics.

I wish I had a video of his presentation as it was one of the very best I have ever attended.....as when he made a point...such as always wearing gloves.....he held up his hands and noted that day he was not....and one peek at what was left of his hands proved his point.

My own experience with a severe fire in flight and the benefit I got out of gloves and Nomex have made me an advocate for such practices.

I stil have my hands today only because I had Leather/Nomes gloves on.....which very much reduced the severity of my burns.

Same for my legs...which due to the construction of the nomes trouser with the multiple pockets and multiple layers of Nomex Cloth....those burns were localized pretty much to where there were only single layers of cloth.

Side note: Nomex does nothing re stopping bullets....proved that along with the previous aforementioned benefits in reducing thermal injuries.

One thing such events reminds you of is that "It" can happen to you and not just to others!

Given that kind of experience, why is Nomex not mandatory for combat crew garments?
I do remember horror stories of UK sailors clothed in burning and melting uniforms during the Falklands episode, has there been no learning since?
I also very much remember the crew of a USAF KC-10 donning gloves as they prepared to land, so at least some of the message has gotten across there.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

We used to get quite a few of the US forces flight-safety publications shared around the RAF units on which I served - I particularly remember one article from an OV1 Mohawk pilot who clearly agreed with everything SASless says about Nomex. This individual chose to wear it even though cockpit temperatures under normal circumstances were pretty severe; saved his life when the aircraft landed (arrived) in a manner different from how anyone but the enemy intended. I used to see quite a few of my contemporaries flying with sleeves rolled up and used to wonder how long they would last under similar circumstances.

One of my instructors also pushed the "fly the aircraft as long as you can" line, but he had a codicil - if crashing is inevitable, undo your straps, drop your keks and sit on the cyclic. It won't do anything to help improve the outcome, but it'll give the accident investigators something to try and - er - work out.

[[email protected]]

When I was instructing at RAF Shawbury in the early 90's, we had a visit from a very pretty young lady who had been a passenger in a 2-seat Harrier a couple of years before - they had had an emergency and ejected but she drifted back down into the burning wreckage.

Her lifejacket wasn't fire proof and she wasn't wearing a cotton layer underneath her flying suit - she was gracious enough to show some of the scarring and it convinced me to always wear a cotton layer under my flying suit and also to wear gloves when flying.

[RetiredBA/BY]

When I was instructing at RAF Shawbury in the early 90's, we had a visit from a very pretty young lady who had been a passenger in a 2-seat Harrier a couple of years before - they had had an emergency and ejected but she drifted back down into the burning wreckage.

Her lifejacket wasn't fire proof and she wasn't wearing a cotton layer underneath her flying suit - she was gracious enough to show some of the scarring and it convinced me to always wear a cotton layer under my flying suit and also to wear gloves when flying.
Absolutely.
When I was at South Cerney on ITS one of our instructors, Melaniphy (?) always had long sleeves even on hot days.

When asked why, he showed us the arm burns he had suffered , trapped on a burning Hunter.

Always, but always, he said, keep your flying overall arms fully down and DO wear you flying gloves.

Never forgot that, even on a boiling day starting or after landing my Canberra which could get VERY hot in bright sunshine.

[NutLoose]

I always put a cotton jacket on to refuel my car, having seen a flash fire in my past I cannot believe people fill up their cars in hot weather wearing nothing but a skimpy tee shirt

[212man]

When I was instructing at RAF Shawbury in the early 90's, we had a visit from a very pretty young lady who had been a passenger in a 2-seat Harrier a couple of years before - they had had an emergency and ejected but she drifted back down into the burning wreckage.

Her lifejacket wasn't fire proof and she wasn't wearing a cotton layer underneath her flying suit - she was gracious enough to show some of the scarring and it convinced me to always wear a cotton layer under my flying suit and also to wear gloves when flying.

http://www.ukserials.com/pdflosses/maas_19910925_xz147.pdf

[[email protected]]

Yep, that's the one

[Boslandew]

A friend of mine ditched a commercial Chinook in the North Sea back in the '80's They had a problem with the hydraulics which caused a severe control malfunction and wildly fluctuating Nr.

In the Chinook varying the rotor speed caused an increased vibration level that took some time to even out. My friend said the vibration was so enormous that he thought the whole control panel was coming off. Not only did they complete a successful water landing but all 47 SOB were evacuated and picked up by boats from a nearby oil installation.

The cause, if I remember rightly, the memory's not what it used to be) was discovered to be contamination of hydraulic oil. A compressor wash was carried out at the end of each days flying due to operating in a salt-laden atmosphere. Apparently the high levels of fluoride in the local water had not been anticipated and some inportant seals had rotted.

[SASless]

The only hydraulic connection to the Engines on a Chinook are to the Engine Starters as they are driven by the Utility Hydraulic System....and that is not connected to the Flight Control System.

Perhaps finding the report on the Incident might provide a better insight into what actually happened.

[212man]

The only hydraulic connection to the Engines on a Chinook are to the Engine Starters as they are driven by the Utility Hydraulic System....and that is not connected to the Flight Control System.

Perhaps finding the report on the Incident might provide a better insight into what actually happened.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5422f1f0e5274a13170003c7/5-1987_G-BISO.pdf I don't think there is a suggestion of a direct connection in the systems, more just general aircraft and hydraulic rig cleaning. But several other failures stated. Sounds like quite a ride and credit to the crew in their attempts to analyse the fault and keep level headed.

[SASless]

They did well....my thoughts are upon losing flight control effectiveness....with an increasing severity....I would have parked it a lot sooner.

Not being critical of the Crew at all....just suggesting I am content to ditch on a pretty day in calm water with lots of help near by.

Some of the symptoms sound much like the Chinook event I opened the thread with but not as violent as the Army event.

The two flight control systems are isolated from the Utility system on the aircraft.

The one place where the Flight Control Hydraulic systems can be "connected" is at the input of the hydraulic cylinders on the rotor heads if there is a leakage between the two systems inside the actuators.

The symptom of that is in one system reservoir gaining some fluid while the other is showing a loss.

The one thing the Chinook is very good at is leaking hydraulic fluid and lubricating oil.

[Kakpipe Cosmonaut]

The only hydraulic connection to the Engines on a Chinook are to the Engine Starters as they are driven by the Utility Hydraulic System....and that is not connected to the Flight Control System.

Perhaps finding the report on the Incident might provide a better insight into what actually happened.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5422f1f0e5274a13170003c7/5-1987_G-BISO.pdf

I remember being trained by the Captain of this flight. He said the company wanted to crucify him for not flying to the land base.

[SASless]

K-C,

I shall drag out my old Motto....."Ass-Tin-Ticket....in that priority.

The helicopter is a reusable shipping container for the contents.....use it as you have to protect what is sitting on your Wallet....the aircraft is expendable and shall wind up in a junkyard one day no matter how careful you are. Ultimately you shall too....but the goal is to prolong that as long as possible.

No one got hurt in that Incident....that marks it as a pure success in my book.

[Kakpipe Cosmonaut]

Exactly. The text of the report makes it sound matter of fact, but the way it was described to me when it was uncontrollable was one of cold terror. They only had one option: ditching.

[Boslandew]

I was not suggesting that the hydraulic problem was with the engines but that the control malfunction caused collective/cyclic pitch changes which caused the fluctuating Nr and hence the enormous vibration

[60FltMech]

Hello, if I remember right from my time on Chinooks there was a hardware issue on the hydraulic actuator pilot valve, a grub screw or bolt came out causing a jam or disconnection of the control rod to the actuator. Can’t remember if it was pivoting or swiveling actuator(Chinook has two hydraulic primary flight control actuators on each Forward and aft rotor).

Again, if memory serves we had to inspect behind a small access plate on the actuator that this hardware was installed/safeties installed before using the part because of this accident.

dan