Firefighting B412 down in Spain 11JUL2021?

[havick]

Saw a video pop up on my LinkedIn feed showing a B412 pancaking coming off the dip.

The post appeared to be a B412 in Spain yesterday?

[Porto Pete]

https://twitter.com/sindicato_SLTA/status/1414299662018875397?s=19

[Porto Pete]

It's been a rotten few days for helis in Spain:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=791189528245823&id=172056993492416&sfnsn=scwspwa

[albatross]

Funny story in Canada years ago:
A 212 with a belly tank is loading at a hot and high pond.
Just about to depart when one donkey quits. Down he goes from a 10 foot hover. Fortunately the water is shallow so he comes to rest upright with water up to the cabin deck.
Our hero wades to shore through water and loon sh#t.
Transport Canada is in the area and proceeds to the scene.
Pilot is in the kitchen of a nearby camp.
Transport Canada: “Captain, when the #2 engine failed did you secure the engine in accordance with the Bell 212 engine failure procedures and checklist?”
Pilot: “ Let me explain one more time! ‘BANG! SPLASH!’ any further questions?

[SASless]

US Army Huey Cobra doing a running landing following a Tail Rotor Failure of some kind.....and it all went wrong shortly after touching down....and as the aircraft was in the process of destroying itself.....Tower called and asked if the Pilot wanted Crash Rescue to respond.

The reply was "How do I know.....I ain't done crashing yet?".

[megan]

"How do I know.....I ain't done crashing yet?"When the crash crew arrived at the wreckage they asked the pilot "What happened?", the reply "No idea, I just got here myself".

[gulliBell]

Anybody have a theory what the high pitch whining sound is at 0:15 when things suddenly went pear shaped? They've obviously had a power loss. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the ET drive shaft couplings suddenly let go. I'd like to see the 30 seconds of video after splashdown.

[albatross]

Guy departing from a helipad in the bush.
The area around the pad had been cut during the depths of winter so it is covered with 2-3 foot stumps.
Anyhoo our hero leaps into his Hughes 500D, fires up and departs.
Upon rotation and at a speed of around 10 knots and an altitude of 20 feet Miss Allison throws a hissy fit and quits.
OH flares and does his best but the helicopter impacts with a little forward speed, snags a stump and rolls over.
We fascinated, concerned observers, rush over to the machine.
As we arrive the pilot’s door flips open and OH lifts himself up to the side of the machine.
We look at him…he slowly looks at his watch then looks at us and says: “Yes, it’s still ticking!”

Timex watches..takes a licking and keeps on ticking. Another Timex torture test for the books.

Only injury- one of the guys twisted his ankle on a stump rushing to the wreck.

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Anybody have a theory what the high pitch whining sound is at 0:15 when things suddenly went pear shaped? The pilot screaming "Why meeee"?

[Bksmithca]

Anybody have a theory what the high pitch whining sound is at 0:15 when things suddenly went pear shaped? They've obviously had a power loss. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the ET drive shaft couplings suddenly let go. I'd like to see the 30 seconds of video after splashdown.
GulliBell, It appeared that the tail rotor stopped at about the 18 second mark then started up again but much slower. Could be an optical illusion in the video.

[helicrazi]

GulliBell, It appeared that the tail rotor stopped at about the 18 second mark then started up again but much slower. Could be an optical illusion in the video.

Really????

If the tail rotor had stopped what do you think it would have looked like? Maybe some rotation?

How about when an engine failed and the collective was pulled into the pilots arm pit, the Nr drooped, causing TRRpm to also slow, matching camera shutter speed?

Tail rotor stopped and started... give me strength :ugh:

[Self loading bear]

...
As we arrive the pilot’s door flips open and OH lifts himself up to the side of the machine.
We look at him…he slowly looks at his watch then looks at us and says: “Yes, it’s still ticking!”

Timex watches..takes a licking and keeps on ticking.

Terribly of thread:
Dutch cyclist Van Est:
70meters I fell,
My heart stopped
but my Pontiac ticked well.

[Bksmithca]

Really????

If the tail rotor had stopped what do you think it would have looked like? Maybe some rotation?

How about when an engine failed and the collective was pulled into the pilots arm pit, the Nr drooped, causing TRRpm to also slow, matching camera shutter speed?

Tail rotor stopped and started... give me strength :ugh:
Daaa hence the comment about possible optical illusion.

[rottenjohn]

Really????

If the tail rotor had stopped what do you think it would have looked like? Maybe some rotation?

How about when an engine failed and the collective was pulled into the pilots arm pit, the Nr drooped, causing TRRpm to also slow, matching camera shutter speed?

Tail rotor stopped and started... give me strength :ugh:

You’re dealing with NZ’s top air crash expert here mate. Solves most mysteries.

[gulliBell]

GulliBell, It appeared that the tail rotor stopped at about the 18 second mark.

No it didn't. The helicopter descended into the water on a constant heading. Maintaining directional control would be impossible if the tail rotor had stopped turning.

[ShyTorque]

Certainly sounds like it might be a broken engine drive coupling screaming away. Effectively an engine failure with both still running.

But then again, having only flown twin engined helis since 1979, I've barely any experience of knowing about this sort of thing compared to the armchair experts here.

[whoknows idont]

Maybe main driveshaft coupling?

[Cyclic Hotline]

Freewheel unit failure? This would explain the runaway engine noise which also appears to remain governed, and not overspeeding and shutting down - and the ensuing sudden drop into the water.

[gulliBell]

Maybe main driveshaft coupling?

I already pitched that one at #7. Fair bet there has been a near sudden loss of mechanical drive somewhere between the CBOX output and the MGB input and the engine squealed because it wasn't very happy about. Another possibility is a TCU or PT governor issue (it's happened before, sudden loss of engine power due to improper rigging or worn components in both governors or the TCU). Whatever the cause I'm sure they'll work out what went wrong soon enough.

[gulliBell]

Freewheel unit failure? ...

Isn't there one freewheel unit per power section in the CBOX? Unless I'm mistaken both freewheel units would need to go kaput to lose output drive from the CBOX.

[megan]

From the low RPM at the very end of the video I'd guess failure of the input from cbox to main transmission. With the engines suddenly being released of load they would tend to overspeed before systems caught up to control.

From the manual.

MAIN DRIVESHAFT FAILURE

INDICATIONS:
Left yaw.
Rapid decrease in ROTOR RPM.
Rapid increase In ENG RPM (N2).
Illumination of rotor RPM caution light with audio.
Possible increase in noise due to:
Overspeeding engine turbines.
Overspeeding combining gearbox.
Driveshaft breakage.

[[email protected]]

Isn't there one freewheel unit per power section in the CBOX? Unless I'm mistaken both freewheel units would need to go kaput to lose output drive from the CBOX. Agreed but one freewheel failure would give the same loss of power as a single engine failure and a controlled ditching as per the video. The engine with the failed freewheel would accelerate under no load which would explain the noise as well.

I think a driveshaft failure from the Cbox to the MRGB would have resulted in a far more dramatic entry to the water.

[gulliBell]

If it was just a single engine failure he would have sat there on the water fat dumb and not so happy whilst the good engine kept everything turning enough for him not to turn turtle. If it was a -DF engine he probably would have been able to hover on one engine without entering the water. Nah, he's lost all power to the MGB I reckon.

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If it was just a single engine failure he would have sat there on the water fat dumb and not so happy whilst the good engine kept everything turning enough for him not to turn turtle And then what? Not enough power to get airborne again and God knows what shock loading to the transmission from TR impact with the water.

A water landing in an aircraft designed for it (done it in a Sea King) is exciting enough and you need a boat shaped hull to manage a SEWTO unless you have a ridiculous amount of power available on the remaining engine. If you are still attached to a water bucket this will be impossible.

On water entry without sponsons or flotation gear you are going to roll inverted regardless.

A driveshaft failure would have produced a lot of yaw - of which there is none in the video - and a harder impact.

If it's not a single engine failure/ rundown/freewheel failure I'll be very surprised.

[gulliBell]

...A driveshaft failure would have produced a lot of yaw - of which there is none in the video - and a harder impact.

Maybe the driver was like Fangio on the pedals and reacted instantly to keep it straight. Dunno I've never been in the 412 simulator to give me a better educated guess of what happened. If it was an old heavy -SP or -HP with a tank of gas he would have run out of oompf OEI, but if it was an -EP I find it hard to believe that 1133 horses from one good engine wouldn't keep him from dunking it.

[SASless]

Crab,

You have not flown a Chinook have you?

We used to do a full engine shutdown and re-start with them.....and do running type takeoffs from water as part of the conversion course when possible.

Back into that old SAR Ready Room Lounge Chair old fella.....and stick to your Sea King construct.

Single engine running takeoffs from the water in a Bell 412 would be a unique experience....yet to be done by anyone I suppose.

The 412 appears to have some kind of problem that resulted in it winding up in the water....with the results seen in the video,

That limits the "what If's" to what happened....as there was no possibility of it making a take off of any kind after that problem manifested itself.

[[email protected]]

Sasless - the shape and size of the chinook hull is what I expect lets it do that - I mentioned a boat like hull for water takeoffs which is almost what the chinny has. It also has an excess of power.

Remember I am still flying every day so don't have to rely on misty-eyed recollections of past glories:)

Gulli - I presently fly the 412 EP and there is not a chance with a bucket of water underneath of staying airborne OEI nor doing a SEWTO. The driveshaft failure in the sim gives a very marked yaw.

[SASless]

The only time you get Misty Eyed is when you have to get up out of that Lounge Chair and change the channel on the Television!

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No, I have a man to do that for me old boy:)

[gulliBell]

Gulli - I presently fly the 412 EP and there is not a chance with a bucket of water underneath of staying airborne OEI nor doing a SEWTO. The driveshaft failure in the sim gives a very marked yaw.
As soon as the bucket touched the water its weight was no longer a factor in pulling that thing out of the air.

[megan]

If it was a -DF engine he probably would have been able to hover on one engine without entering the waterDon't have any idea what the performance capability he might have had (altitude, gross weight, temp etc) but was obliged to do a single engine run on landing in a 412 at one time, sea level, 3-400 lbs fuel, plus a number of pax, after unloading pax hover taxied back to the apron. The very low RPM at the end suggests to me no drive at all.

[gulliBell]

Don't have any idea what the performance capability he might have had...

Your 412SP could crank out 1025 SHP 2.5 minute OEI. If this one was a 412EP he had an extra 108 horses available in an airframe probably slightly lighter than the offshore configured SP you mentioned. I reckon he could arrest the descent and IGE hover OEI no problem at all after the bucket was in the lake. Which suggests to me he had no engines delivering usable power.

[SASless]

I kept waiting to see water dumped...or the entire line and bucket jettisoned......both of which are simple to do.

As it was not done....then you have ask why it was not done.

If your bucket is adjusted to limit the amount of water you take in.....a manually done procedure...then going over weight would have only occurred if the Dip Site parameters changed or the max weight calculations were done for less than full fuel and more fuel was aboard.

If using the US Forest Service Load Calculation system....over weight would not be a factor due to how conservative their performance calculations are determined.

Gordy can explain how that works, if he will, as he does lots of US Forest Service work with multiple types of aircraft.

[[email protected]]

Colleagues who have flown the 412 in firefighting role in Cyprus agree that with a full or even partially full bucket, OEI performance is not possible, other than to take you to the scene of the accident.

It is not unusual to be pulling 100% Tq lifting the bucket and having to make a very gentle transition because there is no excess power available.

It looks to me as if he slowly inches forward to begin the transition and realises he is up to or exceeding his Tq limit and tries to recover to the hover when the malfunction occurs.

We all know that if a mechanical element is going to give up the ghost it will do so under maximum strain which is where he would be in that scenario.

The amount of yaw is tiny, as you would expect from a single engine malfunction rather than the very large yaw you would experience with either a driveshaft breakage or a double engine failure.

He droops the Nr by trying to cushion the water entry at high AUM on one engine and, since he doesn't release the bucket, he is now attached to a large sea anchor.

He has also just put the TR into the water with all the shock loading one might expect - I certainly wouldn't be trying to fly again in those circumstances.

He is low over the water and has an armful of power, presumably single pilot, so I think it is unrealistic for armchair quarterbacks to suggest he had time to pickle the load - especially if, as I suspect, he had a freewheel let go and was trying to work out what the failure was whilst preparing for water entry.

I've done plenty of firebucketing at MAUM, albeit on a Wessex, and I think he can consider it a job well done just surviving a malfunction in those circumstances.

[SASless]

Having a bit of firefighting experience with Bell 205's and 206's using the Bambi bucket....you are quite right about Max Power takeoffs.

My suggestion was at some point prior to the malfunction....lightening the load by mashing the bucket dump button would have gone a long way towards preventing what happened.

After the malfunction you are quite correct in your comments....that bucket full of water determined the vertical trajectory and then became that sea anchor you mentioned.

Also....if you find yourself right at the max limits on power each takeoff....you might want to rethink your bucket capacity and cinch that bucket in a bit to give you some "Uh Oh" Power Reserve.....before it becomes an "Aw ****!" deficit.

if the aircraft is too heavy....a simple button push puts some water back into the pond....where you can come back and dip it out on another cycle to the fire.

In the USA....firefighting with helicopters is less about putting out the fire and more into safely making money throwing water at the ground.

USFS Rule encourage that as they want to have as few crashes and loss of lives and injuries as possible during the Fire Season.

[Gordy]

In the USA....firefighting with helicopters is less about putting out the fire and more into safely making money throwing water at the ground.
USFS Rule encourage that as they want to have as few crashes and loss of lives and injuries as possible during the Fire Season.

You know it----raising the humidity one bucket at a time....

A fire is not out until the team has made their overtime allotment for that roll---I may or ay not be jaded at this point in my career.....lol


If using the US Forest Service Load Calculation system....over weight would not be a factor due to how conservative their performance calculations are determined.
Gordy can explain how that works, if he will, as he does lots of US Forest Service work with multiple types of aircraft.
Yep, I can do that, basically the USFS takes about a 10% download on performance if carrying people, (HOGE---Hover Out of Ground Effect), in simple terms... 5,000' 30 C go tot the carts and the helicopter is able to lift "X", we deduct about 5-10% depending upon THEIR chart... We then deduct EW, pilot weight, hour and half of fuel weight based upon their chart and what we are left with is our "allowable loading" for the day.

We also complete a HOGE-J number which is our allowable weight to lift WITHOUT the download--as it is assumed this is on the "hook" and is "jettison able" hence the J.

This is the chart we compete daily for expected altitude / temperature of where we are flying:

[[email protected]]

Seems eminently sensible - it gives you a 10% thrust margin to allow for manoeuvring with the full bucket in the hover.:ok: