Mach 1.6 Jaguar

[NutLoose]

The new Aeroplane100 magazine has a fascinating large coverage of the Maritime Jag, who knew part of the military spec they had to meet was Mach 1.6 which they attained after a struggle.

[Ascend Charlie]

Mach 0.16 which they attained after a struggle.

There, I fixed it for you.

[Old-Duffer]

The Jaguar, in its early days, only became airborne because of the curvature of the earth.

OldDuffer

[ORAC]

The claim that “the Jaguar is supersonic at all levels” was usually interpreted to mean in a dive.

[NutLoose]

Seriously it was a requirement of the spec that it attained Mach 1.6 which it did eventually after a struggle, then was binned as it had shown it had attained the brief, various mods were introduced, I didn't realise the step in the elevon was to reduce strain on the actuators and it was smoothed out by about 1 inch during testing, the M was going to eventually have a different wing. Various differences included beefed up hook, straight longer stroke main legs and twin nose wheels, beefed up fuselage with fuselage mounted catapult attachments. It also said all Jags had the ability to carry centre line refuelling pods, did ours?

[Ninthace]

I saw a French Navy Jag at Thurleigh having trouble getting out of the way of a Varsity. (To be fair, the Jag had its wheels down and the Varsity didn't)

[Old-Duffer]

RAF Jaguars could and did carry a centre line pod and for GRANBY it had five hard points underneath and two on the roof. The over wing points were the subject of a UOR and required the most careful of drilling and as will be seen in many pics, carried an AIM9. The installation was made 'easier' as most single seat aircraft then in service still had the nuclear wiring installed and this was used.

The centre line hard point could take the big recce pod (for those Jags nodified for it) or a 1200 litre fuel tank. The inboard points could take 1200 litre tanks also and the 'tandem beam' dual bomb carrier. The outboard hard points were usually used for various bits of electronic wizardry.

It will be appreciated that there was some flexibility as to what could be carried and the mix of same but that's the basics.
The twin seat Jags used by the RAF had only one gun and no AAR, there were also a few single seaters which were not modified after being loaned to India and they ended up in the OCU, where AAR was not seen as important.

Old Duffer

[NutLoose]

So they could do buddy buddy refuelling? I never knew.

The Jag could also carry Sidewinders on the inboard pylon too if I remember correctly ( or some could ) TBirds also lacked the rudder damper as it was deemed not neccessary for a trainer, stbd gunbay was filled with avionics displaced by the second cockpit...Though one of Mike Rondots last pictures looks like it has a rudder damper it on it, but it might be my eyes :)

[ORAC]

Does being able to carry a pod or tank equate to being able to stream buddy tank hose or clearance trials having been performed?

Have the French or Indians ever cleared theirs?

[Old-Duffer]

Sorry NutLoose,
I didn't mean to suggest that the Jag could do buddy - buddy refuelling because the RAF ones could not. When I said 'pod' I should have been more careful. The centre line could take the tandem beam, a recce pod (if modified) or a fuel tank. As I mentioned there was flexibility and there are some promotional photos around showing the variety of stuff that could be carried. For Granby, lots of things were cleared in a hurry, including some US weapons, the CRV7 rockets. Stealth paint, tiles in the intakes to reduce signature and all sorts of things with non jammable radios, improved RWR, various allowances re engine rating etc.

Post GRANBY, the battle was on to incorporate the improvements/changes but a couple of guys in the air staff nearly 'killed' the jet by offering to sale a load of cabs in exchange for the improvements. Treasury took the offered savings and then baulked at the exchange. The aircraft to be sold would have been the attrition replacements and those required to get the aircraft's fatigue consumption through to its (ever changing) out of service date. It was such an unnecessary cock up by people who should have known better - rant over.

Later things like a Vinten recce pod and other goodies came along and just after the new engine was approved, the jet was chopped!!!

Old Duffer

[NutLoose]

I believe the spotty Jag was the only one to try out the uprated 106 engine for India.

[ExAscoteer2]

Sorry NutLoose,
For Granby, lots of things were cleared in a hurry, including some US weapons, the CRV7 rockets.

Surely the CRV7 is Canadian not American, standing as it does for Canadian Rocket Vehicle 7?

[Old-Duffer]

ExAscoteer2,

You are correct, poor punctuation etc on my part!
Old Duffer

[Haraka]

CRV7 . Once looked at in the early 80's at as potential armament for Wallis Type Autogiros.....

[superplum]

Sorry NutLoose,
I didn't mean to suggest that the Jag could do buddy - buddy refuelling because the RAF ones could not. When I said 'pod' I should have been more careful. The centre line could take the tandem beam, a recce pod (if modified) or a fuel tank. As I mentioned there was flexibility and there are some promotional photos around showing the variety of stuff that could be carried. For Granby, lots of things were cleared in a hurry, including some US weapons, the CRV7 rockets. Stealth paint, tiles in the intakes to reduce signature and all sorts of things with non jammable radios, improved RWR, various allowances re engine rating etc.

Post GRANBY, the battle was on to incorporate the improvements/changes but a couple of guys in the air staff nearly 'killed' the jet by offering to sale a load of cabs in exchange for the improvements. Treasury took the offered savings and then baulked at the exchange. The aircraft to be sold would have been the attrition replacements and those required to get the aircraft's fatigue consumption through to its (ever changing) out of service date. It was such an unnecessary cock up by people who should have known better - rant over.

Later things like a Vinten recce pod and other goodies came along and just after the new engine was approved, the jet was chopped!!!

Old Duffer

O-D

Pedant point only - "The centre line could take the tandem beam, a recce pod (if modified) or a fuel tank." Not tandem beam; the pylon itself contained the 3 ERUs for stores carriage Front and Rear (119) for bombs etc and Centre (120) for tanks, pods and 115 for "Germany" tasking.

[mike rondot]

The claim that “the Jaguar is supersonic at all levels” was usually interpreted to mean in a dive.
Perhaps you should not make comments like that unless you have flown the jet. Repeating the uninformed snipes of others is not helpful to the general appreciation of a fine aircraft.

[charliegolf]

Perhaps you should not make comments like that unless you have flown the jet. Repeating the uninformed snipes of others is not helpful to the general appreciation of a fine aircraft.

Agreed. I've been told that being sent Jags (whether you wanted it or not) meant you were very close to the top of the league at role disposal time. I guess that's why actual Jag pilots don't feel the need to defend it on here?

CG

[ORAC]

Perhaps you should not make comments like that unless you have flown the jet. Repeating the uninformed snipes of others is not helpful to the general appreciation of a fine aircraft.
It reflects the general appreciation of the aircraft, as opposed to that of those that flew it. Hurtful perhaps, but the general perception in its early years.

p.s. I know you flew and loved it and have many of your prints.

[NutLoose]

Seen his new T bird one Orac, the end of the line.

https://www.collectair.co.uk/coltishall-end-of-the-line.html

I must admit being on them they were very reliable, just not my ideal posting, I applied for Germany to go with the Chinooks and ended up on Jags, with no course, not even a Ground handling one.

Coming off 7 years of Helicopters, Wings and things and seats that go bang were not something I’d seen since training, I was then sent straight on detachment and left to man the engine desk while everyone else forked off to run a Jag out of contact across the airfield……….

The Winco then had a starting problem and I was sent out to deal with it, standing on the ladder he showed me that the micro turbo wouldn’t spool up the engine sufficiently to start and asked me what I thought…… now bearing in mind I’d been on the Jag about a week, didn’t even know where the micro turbo was and had no courses, I thought I’d give him a clear concise engineers diagnostic reply, that would be both informative and accurate and leave him in no doubt about my ability to rectify the situation……..

Fork knows…. Didn’t appear to go down well….

He never did like me after that, ironically when the Sqn folded I was still stood up as the final crew on QRA for about a week, we were met by the Staish and the Wing Co as we came off Q and given Champagne, the Staish telling the Wing Co to drive me home afterwards… that was a trip in total silence!


..

[Cat Techie]

Seriously it was a requirement of the spec that it attained Mach 1.6 which it did eventually after a struggle, then was binned as it had shown it had attained the brief, various mods were introduced, I didn't realise the step in the elevon was to reduce strain on the actuators and it was smoothed out by about 1 inch during testing, the M was going to eventually have a different wing. Various differences included beefed up hook, straight longer stroke main legs and twin nose wheels, beefed up fuselage with fuselage mounted catapult attachments. It also said all Jags had the ability to carry centre line refuelling pods, did ours?

Elevon? If you worked on then you would know they are called tailplanes. If totally correct, they are tailplane halves. Not Tailerons either, Clean T bird at attitude was capable of Mach 1.3, but by the time production was happening, Mach number of 1.6 was actually never going to be needed. The M was a mistake even to be considered. Jaguar was never suitable for a carrier. The cancelled jets, of course, were built instead as AdA A kites.

[Cat Techie]

Seen his new T bird one Orac, the end of the line.

https://www.collectair.co.uk/coltishall-end-of-the-line.html

I must admit being on them they were very reliable, just not my ideal posting, I applied for Germany to go with the Chinooks and ended up on Jags, with no course, not even a Ground handling one.

Coming off 7 years of Helicopters, Wings and things and seats that go bang were not something I’d seen since training, I was then sent straight on detachment and left to man the engine desk while everyone else forked off to run a Jag out of contact across the airfield……….

The Winco then had a starting problem and I was sent out to deal with it, standing on the ladder he showed me that the micro turbo wouldn’t spool up the engine sufficiently to start and asked me what I thought…… now bearing in mind I’d been on the Jag about a week, didn’t even know where the micro turbo was and had no courses, I thought I’d give him a clear concise engineers diagnostic reply, that would be both informative and accurate and leave him in no doubt about my ability to rectify the situation……..

Fork knows…. Didn’t appear to go down well….

He never did like me after that, ironically when the Sqn folded I was still stood up as the final crew on QRA for about a week, we were met by the Staish and the Wing Co as we came off Q and given Champagne, the Staish telling the Wing Co to drive me home afterwards… that was a trip in total silence!


..
Discharge valve not fully closed? leaking sense line can do that. Microturbo cutting out after 20 seconds is another favourite. 23K box. Get the Dog botherers. I know the last man to run a Jag mounted Sahpir GTS. Wonder if BV has used his Hawk mounted one today? Waiting for his defence to the cackling hoards.

[kemblejet01]

Flew it, loved it, been at 1.3 at 500ft.

[EAP86]

The export version, the "Jaguar International" was marketed as a M1.6 aircraft but whether it ever achieved it in service, I've no idea. It did have a slightly more powerful engine and the intake was supposed to be good up to M1.8 but who knows? Some of the export customers weren't averse to flying enthusiastically and I can't recall them complaining about a performance deficit.

The Mk 106 might have been helpful in going to M1.6 but the approved financial case was predicated on reduced in-service costs so performance improvements didn't get too much emphasis (apart from easier AAR; needing PTR for some parts of the AAR envelope is a bit self defeating). ISTR that RR estimated almost 20% thrust improvement in the early days of the 106. I'm not sure what the final number was but single digit %age seems about right.

I think the M version was purely a French requirement.

EAP

[LOMCEVAK]

Flew it, loved it, been at 1.3 at 500ft.

That is around 850 kts IAS. I am fascinated to know how you achieved that!

[factanonverba]

Saw something close to that once, unfortunately it was in the comp wind box!!

[R3O]

Flew it, loved it, been at 1.3 at 500ft.

I think that might be a typo. M:1.03 at 500ft is a lot more likely and has been seen by lots of Jaguar pilots. The Jaguar still had plenty of go at that speed, but pitch control issues dissuaded most from going much faster and only the very brave pushed on towards 700kts Indicated.

[sharpend]

Perhaps you should not make comments like that unless you have flown the jet. Repeating the uninformed snipes of others is not helpful to the general appreciation of a fine aircraft.Totally agree Mike. I got a clean Jaguar up to M1.1 at 6000 feet (by accident). And I was going up! Shall not say where :)

[DCThumb]

Perhaps you should not make comments like that unless you have flown the jet. Repeating the uninformed snipes of others is not helpful to the general appreciation of a fine aircraft.

In my formative days as a holding officer on 6 Sqn, you took me flying in a 2 seater and I remember we went easily to 0.99M. As I recall the only reason we didn’t go supersonic was because the external tanks weren’t rated! Still the fastest I’ve flown!

To all doubters and nay sayers, this was in level flight!

[Lima Juliet]

I have no doubt a clean (ie. no stores) Jag would make M1.0 at low level, but you would need a good run at it and as soon as you turn you’ll be quickly down to 400kts. The aircraft had pretty poor levels of specific excess power (SEP) as it was designed to be a trainer, but the Hawk took that role. Oddly enough I’ve been supersonic in a Hawk T1 as well, but looking at the slip ball we were going a bit sideways!

Anyway, if you want to go quick at low level, with live weapons then look no further than the F3 - just over 850KIAS at 250ft was the fasted I ever saw with a 2x2 weapons fit and she would have gone way faster if it hadn’t reached the edge of the operational clearance. She was still accelerating as she was throttled back at 850 and got towards 870 for a wee while as the engines spooled down.

[blimey]

youb would need a good run at it and as soon as you turn you’ll be quickly down to 400kts.
I seem to remember reading clean, burners, 500kts, 5g sustained.

[Lima Juliet]

blimey Exactly, clean it was fine as it was designed to be a trainer. But as soon as you want to do anything with it then you would start to run out of puff. Which is a bit like F3 would above 25,000ft where any tomfoolery would need loads of burner, loads of smash or a descent during it. Until Typhoon the Brits had a habit of buying jets with limited puff (apart from Harrier that had plenty of oomph fitted around a Dragmaster 9000 body!).

The Jag was the development of Air Staff Target 362 which demanded a supersonic training aircraft. They pretty much got what Air Staff Target 362 asked for. I shudder to think how many studes we would have lost from Jag’s unforgiving high alpha characteristics if we’d used it for training. There used to be a classic video shown by IFS on how a Jag was departed at low level and so very nearly lost but for the sharp reactions of the Instructor (initials AC if I recall correctly).

[kemblejet01]

you recall correctly...

[Cat Techie]

you recall correctly...

https://youtu.be/cQtF5Gt9Bn8

And showing what a Cat could do clean. Top bloke whom has suffered personal traumas I would never wish on anyone. His mount is being restored back into those colours.This and the Late Mike Seares canyon flying are my two favourite Jag vids not generated with some input by myself.

[mike rondot]

I remember those T-Bird sorties very well. It was my privilege to show back-seaters the fastest speed they were ever likely to travel on earth unless they went on to fly the Tornado. At 250ft over the sea, M:0.99 was around 660kts, depending on the temperature. The only reason to stay subsonic was fear of the drop tanks hunting and coming apart. You could see in your peripheral vision the noses of the tanks weaving around at high Mach. A few years later that fear was dispelled when we did the supersonic dive release trials of 1000lb bombs and CBU 87s with the centreline tank unfazed by the excursions outside its design envelope.

[blimey]

It was my privilege to show back-seaters the fastest speed they were ever likely to travel on earth.

Flapless landing?

[Cat Techie]

I remember those T-Bird sorties very well. It was my privilege to show back-seaters the fastest speed they were ever likely to travel on earth unless they went on to fly the Tornado. At 250ft over the sea, M:0.99 was around 660kts, depending on the temperature. The only reason to stay subsonic was fear of the drop tanks hunting and coming apart. You could see in your peripheral vision the noses of the tanks weaving around at high Mach. A few years later that fear was dispelled when we did the supersonic dive release trials of 1000lb bombs and CBU 87s with the centreline tank unfazed by the excursions outside its design envelope.

Talking about Backseat rides, I was on holiday in the North East this summer just gone and was visiting Beamish. On the last exhibt to see (the 1940s farm), and by thelLand girl volunteer was a bloke that looked famiiar. He had been on telly the week before on Countryfile (and I had mentioned his name to the missus, before the article was broadcast). I said "Excuse me? Are you?" to which I got the look of (you know me, but I haven't got a clue who you are!) and the reply of "Yes!". My reply was "Cat Techie, at Colt and you took me up on my first Jag Backset trip! The Land Girl was then asking the questions!

[Cat Techie]

Flapless landing?

Try the Arizona take offs. BV will possibly mention the scrubbed flying at Tucson in 2005. In 2003 @ Davis Monthan, 6 Mates were forced to take off with a substantial tail wind that put take off ground speed well in excess of the maximum speed rating of the Dunlop tyres fitted. When one tyre gave up the ghost on rotation, such operating parameters were reviewed so such an incident didn't happen again.

[LOMCEVAK]

It is perhaps just worth reflecting on the maximum cleared airspeeds in some of the types mentioned. The Jag with tanks fitted was 0.95M and the Tornado F3 without tanks was 800 KCAS. The reasons for speed limits are usually not promulgated but may be due to the limit of testing, a handling qualities characteristic or a structural consideration, either for ultimate load or fatigue. Please do not take this as a criticism of anyone because I also have knowingly (and unwittingly!) exceeded published speed limits in some aircraft, but it is something that is worth contemplating in the context of this discussion.

My fastest/lowest combination was 700 KIAS at 100 ft overland in a CF-104 out of Cold Lake - and that was spectacular!

[Bob Viking]

Perhaps RCS would be better qualified to speak of the horrors of a heavy Jag at DM. Before you banter it was with a couple of thousand pounders, drop tanks and overwing missiles in +35C. DM being close to 3000’ AMSL.

As I recall his rotate speed was 193 that day and when he pulled back on the stick the jet didn’t want to rotate.

What followed was a high speed abort, a cable engagement and a few shredded tyres.

What also followed was early finishes for the remainder of the detachment.

What I should add was that on the first day of ops there we received 14 noise complaints from our use of runway 30. One of the complaints was from the Mayor.

Apparently the locals were happy with the A10s overflying the city on take off. They were not so happy with Jags in reheat at low altitude straight over downtown.

Some people just have no sense of humour.

BV

[Lima Juliet]

LOMCEVAK

Incorrect. Peacetime clearance for F3 was 725KIAS Vno and 750KIAS Vne. There were various speeds above that for operational necessity, under Operational Emergency Clearance (OEC), one of which was 850KIAS for F3. I did hear that 900KIAS was also authorised at one point and I do know some that got to that with ease before the DECUs were trimmed back following some uncontained engine issues.

We still do OECs these days and you can read about their policy here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1014216/RA1330_Issue_5.pdf

[Coltishall. loved it]

Was lucky enough to have a back seat with the tall gentleman on 16R serca 2003. Best day of my life! Practice bombs on the range, low over Humber bridge, very low over Chatsworth house, then low over Ladybower and incredibly low through the Mach Loop. Then upstairs for some aeros. From memory I'm sure we were up just under 2 hours and returned to Colt lowish on fuel and the 4g left turn after flying down the runway just seemed to go on forever "hence the pile issues ever since"

Said gentleman went on to be very successful with the "reds" I've still got a digital pick of him next to the 16R sign and the reds taxiing behind him (they were doing the seaside shows and operating out of Colt)
Back to the thread, what speed were we going? dint have time to look at gauge as at 200 feet it all seems bloody quick.
Just wish I'd tried harder at school

[LOMCEVAK]

LOMCEVAK

Incorrect. Peacetime clearance for F3 was 725KIAS Vno and 750KIAS Vne. There were various speeds above that for operational necessity, under Operational Emergency Clearance (OEC), one of which was 850KIAS for F3. I did hear that 900KIAS was also authorised at one point and I do know some that got to that with ease before the DECUs were trimmed back following some uncontained engine issues.

We still do OECs these days and you can read about their policy here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1014216/RA1330_Issue_5.pdf
LJ,
Thanks for the correction - I was going from memory. The 800 KCAS was what I remember from the R to S trials and I thought that had become the NE limit - my mistake. Must dig out some old Manuals ....

[Cat Techie]

Perhaps RCS would be better qualified to speak of the horrors of a heavy Jag at DM. Before you banter it was with a couple of thousand pounders, drop tanks and overwing missiles in +35C. DM being close to 3000’ AMSL.

As I recall his rotate speed was 193 that day and when he pulled back on the stick the jet didn’t want to rotate.

What followed was a high speed abort, a cable engagement and a few shredded tyres.

What also followed was early finishes for the remainder of the detachment.

What I should add was that on the first day of ops there we received 14 noise complaints from our use of runway 30. One of the complaints was from the Mayor.

Apparently the locals were happy with the A10s overflying the city on take off. They were not so happy with Jags in reheat at low altitude straight over downtown.

Some people just have no sense of humour.

BV

Cheers BV. Was the Jet E fit as well? I wouldn't know as it was before my time and assume the hot and high was enough to forget it. No Jag operating on a States det is clean. Hindsight is a fine thing (and I have a memory as well). RCS seems to be an engineers nightmare! Top bloke as we all know, but the last two major 6 bird strikes at Colt, he was flying! XX737, I have just got the F700 for (and donated to the RAF Colt Heritage Centre). Its terminal birdstrike was by RCS (and he never raised the F707 entry! I had to do so!). Queen of the Fleet XX112 also became a magnet for feathers in RCS's hand just before the closure of Colt. The scatter of gulls on the Head Up as RCS popped their mortal coils was most impressive. The comments by Dava of "Why didn't you divert to Coningsby?" was very apt at the time.
I have flown in a Jag that is Cool and Clean and one that was Hot and Dirty. One was a sporty Hawk, One was not. Chalk and Chesse. Watching a runway disapear as Lift and Thrust tries to beats Drag and Mass on the second did make this HNC quailfied engineer wonder. However the Jaguar is always going to be the most social aeroplane. It allowed the aircrew and groundcrew the opportunity have a drink during dets. In fact it was the last OC of a Jaguar Sqn that ensured that the JPs recognised the ground crew outside of the management structure. Morning briefs when I was SLOC. Groundcrew Recce. Name the Ground Crew from his mug shot. Then again the last Jaguar OC was Chershire, not Gibson. The end of the Jaguar was the best of days one would ever see.

[Mogwi]

“My fastest/lowest combination was 700 KIAS at 100 ft overland in a CF-104 out of Cold Lake - and that was spectacular!”


Blimey, that must have been some ride! I managed 650+ (not sure by how much) IAS below 100ft in a jumping bean. Yes, I know that is WELL above VNE but I was in a bit of a rush to get a firing solution at the bottom of a screaming-Jesus dive from 10k with the limiters tripped. The aircraft didn’t react well to the first Lima launch and I ended up with 140 degrees of instantaneous roll to starboard and a face-full of sea.

The other guy had it worse though. Swing the lamp.

Mog

[Lima Juliet]

Mog

Do you reckon that was the sudden loss of drag off of the left wing station or the rocket eflux from the 9L?

Best, LJ

[NutLoose]

One thing I could never fathom and neither could some of our avionics engineers was our Sengo / Jengo’s insistence to run the NavWass etc at Deci with the Avionics bay door open “for cooling” thus destroying the effectiveness of the built in cooling system by destroying the flow through the boxes. Never could understand the logic behind that.


i do have a picture somewhere of the spotty Jag fitted with the Adour 821 engine…

[Mogwi]

Mog

Do you reckon that was the sudden loss of drag off of the left wing station or the rocket eflux from the 9L?

Best, LJ

I can only surmise that it was the effect of the shockwave as the Lima went supersonic as soon as it left the rails. Got my attention whatever the cause!

Mog

[Cat Techie]

I can only surmise that it was the effect of the shockwave as the Lima went supersonic as soon as it left the rails. Got my attention whatever the cause!

Mog

So many Tomb and Tonka mates that are jealous of you Mog. Only SHAR mates have thrown a Lima at the enemy as an AAM (forgetting the own goal of the 25th of May 1982). Strike Gordon released a Lima off a Jag in combat. That was using a 9L as a ASM!

[Mr N Nimrod]

I am looking forward to tonight’s treat Cat Techie, please don’t disappoint.

[Cat Techie]

I am looking forward to tonight’s treat Cat Techie, please don’t disappoint.
Only mentioned historical facts. I will disappoint.