RAF Seeks Zero Emissions Trainer

[ORAC]

RAF doing market exploration for military certified zero emissions light training aircraft ? Alert 5 (http://alert5.com/2021/07/08/raf-doing-market-exploration-for-military-certified-zero-emissions-light-training-aircraft/)

RAF doing market exploration for military certified zero emissions light training aircraft

The U.K.’s Defence and Security Accelerator (DASA) has launched a Market Exploration called Zero Emissions Air System, on behalf of the Royal Air Force (RAF).

The RAF is searching for its next generation of light flying training aircraft that must be more environmentally friendly and produces a zero carbon emission at the point of use.

The light aircraft must have an endurance of around 90 minutes with a turnaround time of not more than 20 minutes. This will include replenishment of the powertrain energy source, which can be electric or hydrogen based.

For more information, hit the Source below

Source (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/searching-the-skies-for-zero-emissions-training-aircraft)

[Saintsman]

https://www.flightstore.co.uk/images/flight-simulator-premium-edition-for-pc-10-disc-version-p12793-72593_thumbmini.jpg

It'll be a lot cheaper...

[622]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/225x225/images_2__f3420fbb1c545a13e554ca8cff7871c9ce9dfe00.jpg
...might need a bigger band!

[pasta]

Erm.....
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x960/1280px_ze625_viking_327c896a37ac8f970511f5bf93530c5eaf08e450 .jpg

[unmanned_droid]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/225x225/images_2__f3420fbb1c545a13e554ca8cff7871c9ce9dfe00.jpg
...might need a bigger band!


All that rubber winding and unwinding creates heat - not good for the climate!!!

[unmanned_droid]

https://www.flightstore.co.uk/images/flight-simulator-premium-edition-for-pc-10-disc-version-p12793-72593_thumbmini.jpg

It'll be a lot cheaper...

Ahh, but not emissions free!

[Less Hair]

https://www.pipistrel-aircraft.com/aircraft/electric-flight/velis-electro-easa-tc/

endurance up to 50 minutes (plus VFR reserve) max load factor permitted @ (1.875) +4g -2g design safety factors & tested minimum 1.875

India uses the Rotax version for training.

[Ken Scott]

The current EFT trainer, the Grob Tutor, isn’t producing much in the way of emissions at the moment...

[NutLoose]

Sorted, do you want it shipping?

Link Flight Trainer - govdeals.com (https://www.govdeals.com/?fa=Main.Item&itemid=147&acctid=3844)


Or send your chaps around and we can do it on location

Link Trainer Flight Simulator - Naval Air Station Fort Lauderdale Museum (nasflmuseum.com) (https://www.nasflmuseum.com/link-trainer.html)

[Ninthace]

Erm.....
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x960/1280px_ze625_viking_327c896a37ac8f970511f5bf93530c5eaf08e450 .jpg
If you saw the smoke coming out our winch, it would be a non starter. Even a gas winch isn't green.
I suppose we could bungy it off a ridge - that would be green but the pilot's trousers might be brown if the ridge isn't working.

[pasta]

If you saw the smoke coming out our winch, it would be a non starter. Even a gas winch isn't green.
I suppose we could bungy it off a ridge - that would be green but the pilot's trousers might be brown if the ridge isn't working.
The requirement says "zero carbon emission at the point of use". Unless you have a launch failure you should never be less than 1000' from the winch. Failing that, auto-tow with a Tesla?

[nonsense]

All that rubber winding and unwinding creates heat - not good for the climate!!!
Conservation of energy; you don't create heat, just shuffle it around.

[Wensleydale]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x720/zero_6dcf37e51705f06b74b2c71eac0839518ca4551c.jpg

[NutLoose]

Zero huh, very good..

[Wensleydale]

Zero huh, very good..

Yep. Photograph from a Japanese raid on a suet factory: "Atora, Atora, Atora".

[NutLoose]

That nasty glider is fibreglass so it isn’t really green, what you need is wood and fabric, here are some I took earlier.


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51232101194_1f1f459ef8_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2m4cUMy)1938 Schneider SG38 (https://flic.kr/p/2m4cUMy) by Tony Taylor (https://www.flickr.com/photos/142550108@N08/), on Flickr


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51232101224_576c831fb2_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2m4cUN5)1938 Schneider SG38 2 (https://flic.kr/p/2m4cUN5) by Tony Taylor (https://www.flickr.com/photos/142550108@N08/), on Flickr

[NutLoose]

Sorry if they are not as sharp as normal he was about 600ft to 1000ft above me and I was trying to heave a 500mm around above my head.

[megan]

I suppose we could bungy it off a ridge - that would be greenThe requirement isThe RAF is searching for its next generation of light flying training aircraft that must be more environmentally friendly and produces a zero carbon emission at the point of useI'm afraid the bungy method produces carbon at the point of use, those hanging on and stretching the bungy. Detail, detail, sorry to be a spoil sport. :p Must be a way though, if a UK power station can go from burning coal to shipping in timber from the US and burning that and be considered carbon neutral........

[jriv]

Every poster so far: change is bad ☹️

[TukwillaFlyboy]

Every poster so far: change is bad ☹️

No, just a pragmatic , and amusing,response from experienced people.
The idea that reducing emissions will be cheap and easy is delusional.
Lithium batteries have about a sixtieth of the energy density of JetA1.
Its called physics.
It trumps wishful thinking every time.

[jriv]

No, just a pragmatic , and amusing,response from experienced people.
The idea that reducing emissions will be cheap and easy is delusional.
Lithium batteries have about a sixtieth of the energy density of JetA1.
Its called physics.
It trumps wishful thinking every time.

IOW. “ I know better. Change is bad.”

[artyhug]

Not aimed at anyone in particular, more a musing, but the argument that it isn’t cheap or easy and therefore shouldn’t be considered is mystifying to me.

Without aiming to beat expensive and difficult challenges little if anything would have been achieved by the human race.

No agricultural revolution, no industrial revolution, no technological revolution.

it confuses me even more when it is wielded by allegedly ‘experienced’ individuals. The self same individuals who have spent a lifetime utilising the success stories from others struggles to overcome difficult and expensive problems.

Naturally there are legion failures to accompany every success but without trying we will never succeed at anything.

[TukwillaFlyboy]

Not aimed at anyone in particular, more a musing, but the argument that it isn’t cheap or easy and therefore shouldn’t be considered is mystifying to me.

Without aiming to beat expensive and difficult challenges little if anything would have been achieved by the human race.

No agricultural revolution, no industrial revolution, no technological revolution.

it confuses me even more when it is wielded by allegedly ‘experienced’ individuals. The self same individuals who have spent a lifetime utilising the success stories from others struggles to overcome difficult and expensive problems.

Naturally there are legion failures to accompany every success but without trying we will never succeed at anything.

You might want to look up the concept of economic utility.
All successful revolutions increase economic utility , not decrease it.
The obsession with reducing emissions at all costs is going to lead to really dumb and expensive mistakes.

[artyhug]

Thank you for so eloquently proving my point.

I give up.

[beardy]

You might want to look up the concept of economic utility.
All successful revolutions increase economic utility , not decrease it.
The obsession with reducing emissions at all costs is going to lead to really dumb and expensive mistakes.
It depends on where you consider the boundaries of the system, wallet, house, town, etc.. up to global. The utility lies in saving the climate, the cost may be high but economically justified if it preserves mankind. Yes there well may be dumb mistakes along the way, but that shouldn't stop the effort.

[TukwillaFlyboy]

It depends on where you consider the boundaries of the system, wallet, house, town, etc.. up to global. The utility lies in saving the climate, the cost may be high but economically justified if it preserves mankind. Yes there well may be dumb mistakes along the way, but that shouldn't stop the effort.

Never said we shouldn’t make an effort.
It just should be rational.
Where I live people are installing solar panels that will have a capacity factor of 15% if they are lucky.
Because of a feed in tariff , which the Government is being forced to reduce by economic reality , and Government subsidy.
Because its popular.
But also dumb and expensive.
That might work for a while in wealthy first world countries but its not the future.

[flyingorthopod]

https://www.flyer.co.uk/aura-aero-to-produce-electric-aerobatic-two-seater/


Solved. Expect OBE by return mail.

Endurance issues easily solved; just hook a bunch up to tow behind a Voyager and recharge by windmilling prop.

[melmothtw]

This line in the Market Report struck me as curious - There is no intention to launch a formal DASA competition as a result of this Market Exploration.

So, is the RAF going to field a zero emissions trainer or not?

[V-Jet]

Should the Geneva Convention be adjusted to limit environmental emissions in war?

[ninja-lewis]

No, just a pragmatic , and amusing,response from experienced people.
The idea that reducing emissions will be cheap and easy is delusional.
Lithium batteries have about a sixtieth of the energy density of JetA1.
Its called physics.
It trumps wishful thinking every time.
“Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible.” Lord Kelvin 1895. Good thing nobody listened to him either.

You might want to look up the concept of economic utility.
All successful revolutions increase economic utility , not decrease it.
The obsession with reducing emissions at all costs is going to lead to really dumb and expensive mistakes.
The problem with economic utility is that too often externalities are ignored. What is the cost of climate change, air pollution etc if we continue as is?

The frontline will be carbon fuelled through 2050 through we may see synthetic fuels replace fossil sources. And that's okay because military necessity justifies the cost.

But UAS and AEF flying won't have the same licence to operate. They'll have new generations of students and cadets looking for zero emissions and if the RAF is not ready to rise to that challenge then we will all be poorer for it (remembering that the primary purpose of UAS and air cadets is encourage air-mindedness , not recruitment).

[Ninthace]

I have a virtually zero carbon solution. A good old fashioned wood and canvas glider. We could use the growing of the materials to offset any carbon. To launch we go back to the ridge idea but this time a cliff, Build a launch ramp out of wood - more carbon offset. To launch we tie a length of hemp rope, more carbon offset, to a scrap Tesla battery for poetic justice. Pass the rope over a pulley and attach the other end to the Ottfur on the glider. Balance the battery on the lip of the ramp then give it a gentle nudge so it falls off, launching the glider into the air. I reckon that is as near zero carbon at the point of use as you can get. I call it the Colditz system.

To retrieve the launch cable, a light line previously attached to the cable near the pulley on the glider side, could be lowered down the cliff. Tie an empty canvas bucket to the other end. As the battery plummets the bucket rises. To get the battery back, fill the bucket with water, we may need a sizeable bucket but it is canvass so not too difficult to make. Bucket falls, battery rises. When bucket hits the bottom, the water spills out and we are good to go again. As green as they come I reckon! Sometimes I even surprise myself. :ok:

Now where's my Herbert Lott?

[TukwillaFlyboy]

Dear Sir I write this note to inform you of my plight
And at the time of writing I am not a pretty sight
My body is all black and blue, my face a deathly gray
I write this note to tell why Paddy's not at work today

While working on the fourteenth floor, some bricks I had to clear
And to throw them down from off the top seemed quite a good idea
But the gaffer wasn't very pleased, he was an awful sod
He said I had to cart them down the ladder in me hod.

Well clearing all those bricks by hand, it seemed so very slow
So I hoisted up a barrel and secured the rope below
But in my haste to do the job, I was too blind to see
That a barrel full of building bricks is heavier than me.

So when I had untied the rope, the barrel fell like lead
And clinging tightly to the rope I started up instead
I took off like a rocket and to my dismay I found
That half way up I met the bloody barrel coming down.

Well the barrel broke my shoulder as on to the ground it sped
And when I reached the top I banged the pulley with me head
I held on tight, though numb with shock from this almighty blow
And the barrel spilled out half its load fourteen floors below

Now when those building bricks fell from the barrel to the floor
I then outweighed the barrel so I started down once more
I held on tightly to the rope as I flew to the ground
And I landed on those building bricks that were scattered all
around.

Now as I lay there on the deck I thought I'd passed the worst
But when the barrel reached the top, that's when the bottom burst
A shower of bricks came down on me, I knew I had no hope
In all of this confusion, I let go the bloody rope.

The barrel being heavier, it started down once more
And landed right on top of me as I lay on the floor
It broke three ribs and my left arm, and I can only say
That I hope you'll understand why Paddy's not at work today.

[muppetofthenorth]

But UAS and AEF flying won't have the same licence to operate. They'll have new generations of students and cadets looking for zero emissions and if the RAF is not ready to rise to that challenge then we will all be poorer for it (remembering that the primary purpose of UAS and air cadets is encourage air-mindedness , not recruitment).
AEF flying is already basically non existent so no real change there. Just leave the air cadets with gliders.
The UAS' will shift, why do they need to fly as much as they do? These days they are more direct recruitment than air mindedness, the Studes are all set on an RAF career and know they'll be in sims, so don't expect actual flying.

[NutLoose]

I have a virtually zero carbon solution. A good old fashioned wood and canvas glider. We could use the growing of the materials to offset any carbon. To launch we go back to the ridge idea but this time a cliff, Build a launch ramp out of wood - more carbon offset. To launch we tie a length of hemp rope, more carbon offset, to a scrap Tesla battery for poetic justice. Pass the rope over a pulley and attach the other end to the Ottfur on the glider. Balance the battery on the lip of the ramp then give it a gentle nudge so it falls off, launching the glider into the air. I reckon that is as near zero carbon at the point of use as you can get. I call it the Colditz system.

To retrieve the launch cable, a light line previously attached to the cable near the pulley on the glider side, could be lowered down the cliff. Tie an empty canvas bucket to the other end. As the battery plummets the bucket rises. To get the battery back, fill the bucket with water, we may need a sizeable bucket but it is canvass so not too difficult to make. Bucket falls, battery rises. When bucket hits the bottom, the water spills out and we are good to go again. As green as they come I reckon! Sometimes I even surprise myself. :ok:

Now where's my Herbert Lott?


But what about the fuel you would burn excavating cliffs all over the UK.?

[Ninthace]

But what about the fuel you would burn excavating cliffs all over the UK.?
There's enough already. We are on an island surrounded by the wretched things facing into all possible winds, How many basic flying training units do you need anyway? Away with your pettifogging nit-picking. Give me my Herbert Lott now - cheapskates!

[brokenlink]

Pasta, you beat me to it .:)

[ORAC]

TukwillaFlyboy,

Gerard Hoffnung - The Bricklayer’s Lament.

https://youtu.be/zZUJLO6lMhI

Full album including the above and much more.

https://youtu.be/zYaKjDrq2-g

[TukwillaFlyboy]

TukwillaFlyboy,

Gerard Hoffnung - The Bricklayer’s Lament.

https://youtu.be/zZUJLO6lMhI

Full album including the above and much more.

https://youtu.be/zYaKjDrq2-g

A classic !

[esa-aardvark]

Why not make all that warlike stuff zero emission.
Helicopters Fast jets, transport, F-35's (whatever they are).
The Battle of Britain flight.
Then the rest of MOD, High ranks, Ships (they could tow gliders),
motor transport, and what about the Nuclear weapons ?

[WB627]

Not sure about ZERO emissions :} but got to be close. Nothing like a bungy launch :)

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x510/xk790_295_1_02e46c6a02529df3d310a93485dd88db27e1222f.jpg

[OldLurker]

RAF Seeks Zero Emissions TrainerOf course this can't really be a 'zero emissions trainer' unless its 'fuel' is genuinely net-zero and all the tasks involved in building it and its components (eg mining the lithium for the battery) are also genuinely net-zero. 'Zero carbon emission at the point of use' is a cop-out. It'll be an 'elsewhere emissions trainer.'

Even after that, they've got a mountain to climb. I look forward to the (genuinely) zero emissions F-35, Chinook and heavy transport aircraft..

[Ninthace]

Not sure about ZERO emissions :} but got to be close. Nothing like a bungy launch :)

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x510/xk790_295_1_02e46c6a02529df3d310a93485dd88db27e1222f.jpg

We had one at school that we used to shoot across the playing field, I don't think we ever got it that high though, staff probably never had the bottle. We rarely took the spoilers off tbh.

I heard tales of one being used for an aerial streak from Bicester using an airtow. I cannot swear to the authenticity of the tale as I wasn't there.

[unmanned_droid]

Conservation of energy; you don't create heat, just shuffle it around.

Kinda like climate change then?

[unmanned_droid]

This line in the Market Report struck me as curious - There is no intention to launch a formal DASA competition as a result of this Market Exploration.

So, is the RAF going to field a zero emissions trainer or not?

Yes, but only on Twitter.

[WB627]

We had one at school that we used to shoot across the playing field, I don't think we ever got it that high though, staff probably never had the bottle. We rarely took the spoilers off tbh.

I heard tales of one being used for an aerial streak from Bicester using an airtow. I cannot swear to the authenticity of the tale as I wasn't there.

My launch crew had Shredded Wheat for breakfast :E

[jriv]

Kinda like climate change then?

If we were a closed system, sure. But we’re not. The sun pours energy into the earth’s atmosphere.

Now you could make the argument that the total amount of energy in the solar system is constant, but that’s not real helpful to the things living on earth.

[ChrisVJ]

Is no one else tired of the stupidity? We're talking about training pilots to kill people and blow things up and if they are not the best trained in theatre get shot down/blown up themselves and instead of worrying about what is the very best training vehicle we're supposed to be worried about its carbon footprint?

What is the carbon footprint of a fuel dump explosion?

[TukwillaFlyboy]

Is no one else tired of the stupidity? We're talking about training pilots to kill people and blow things up and if they are not the best trained in theatre get shot down/blown up themselves and instead of worrying about what is the very best training vehicle we're supposed to be worried about its carbon footprint?

What is the carbon footprint of a fuel dump explosion?

Not tired, despairing……..

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Is no one else tired of the stupidity? We're talking about training pilots to kill people and blow things up and if they are not the best trained in theatre get shot down/blown up themselves and instead of worrying about what is the very best training vehicle we're supposed to be worried about its carbon footprint?

What is the carbon footprint of a fuel dump explosion?
It's cool that you think the MOD buys the "very best" training vehicle, not the cheapest....

​​​​

[Blackfriar]

Not aimed at anyone in particular, more a musing, but the argument that it isn’t cheap or easy and therefore shouldn’t be considered is mystifying to me.

Without aiming to beat expensive and difficult challenges little if anything would have been achieved by the human race.

No agricultural revolution, no industrial revolution, no technological revolution.

it confuses me even more when it is wielded by allegedly ‘experienced’ individuals. The self same individuals who have spent a lifetime utilising the success stories from others struggles to overcome difficult and expensive problems.

Naturally there are legion failures to accompany every success but without trying we will never succeed at anything.
I'm sure that the aircraft designers in 1946 looking at B35/46 for a four engined bomber to fly at 500Kts and at least 55,000 ft were perplexed by the enormity of the task. And they then built it. Or three in fact. Sometimes one has to be bold.
The question is whether all this zero carbon stuff is nonsense and a complete waste of time.

[Ninthace]

I'm sure that the aircraft designers in 1946 looking at B35/46 for a four engined bomber to fly at 500Kts and at least 55,000 ft were perplexed by the enormity of the task. And they then built it. Or three in fact. Sometimes one has to be bold.
The question is whether all this zero carbon stuff is nonsense and a complete waste of time.
One way to look at it. There is no point in defending your country if you lose your planet.

[artyhug]

I'm sure that the aircraft designers in 1946 looking at B35/46 for a four engined bomber to fly at 500Kts and at least 55,000 ft were perplexed by the enormity of the task. And they then built it. Or three in fact. Sometimes one has to be bold.
The question is whether all this zero carbon stuff is nonsense and a complete waste of time.

Now that discussion/argument I have no issue with and indeed wholeheartedly encourage.

The other however is just pigheaded inertia.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I think this initiative should be looked at from a glass half full perspective, At present it would seem to me the bean counters are doing everything in their power to reduce the amount of time studes actually spend in an flying airplane. I would suggest that we are at or at least very close to a practical electric 2 seat trainer with the performance to meet the primary and basic flying curriculum.

I think everyone should be banging the drum on the message that instead of spending money on simulators the services should be spending money on electric airplanes. Throw in the usual virtue signaling buzz words like enabling zero emission technologies, encouraging climate friendly enterprises, funding technology incubators, public private partnership to a green future; and future proofing air capabilities; and the mandarins will eat it up.

The end result is instead of more and more time in some "ground based learning device "the future Air Force guys and gals get more actual airtime. What's not to like about that ?

[Rivet gun]

Aura Integral E could meet the spec (and I am also interested in it for the civilian UPRT task), but will be very dependent on development of the right battery technology. If Elon Musk can mass produce robust, rapid charging batteries with energy density of at least 400 Wh per Kg in the next few years we could be there.

https://insideevs.com/news/440727/elon-musk-400-whkg-cells-not-far/

[phylosocopter]

Should the Geneva Convention be adjusted to limit environmental emissions in war?
That is the first truely rational comment so far in this topic!

[Roland Pulfrew]

AEF flying is already basically non existent so no real change there. I beg to differ. Before CV19 suspended flying (because of the risk of in cockpit transfer of CV), some 16000 cadets had been flown in that FY. The aspiration is/was to do more.

The UAS' will shift, why do they need to fly as much as they do? These days they are more direct recruitment than air mindedness, the Studes are all set on an RAF career and know they'll be in sims, so don't expect actual flying. How much flying do you think each student gets? And if you know the rest of your "flying" career will largely be in the sim, wouldn't you make the most of what you can, when you can? And how is the RAF going to recruit people who want to fly aircraft, if they keep saying most of your flying will be in the sim. Be interesting to see what happens to retention with that cunning plan.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x510/xk790_295_1_02e46c6a02529df3d310a93485dd88db27e1222f.jpg

Can you imagine the risk assessment for doing that now?? How many different JSPs/MARDs would you have to read? With the risk aversion pervading the military, who would own the risk? ODH? SDH? God?

[Blackfriar]

I think this initiative should be looked at from a glass half full perspective, At present it would seem to me the bean counters are doing everything in their power to reduce the amount of time studes actually spend in an flying airplane. I would suggest that we are at or at least very close to a practical electric 2 seat trainer with the performance to meet the primary and basic flying curriculum.

I think everyone should be banging the drum on the message that instead of spending money on simulators the services should be spending money on electric airplanes. Throw in the usual virtue signaling buzz words like enabling zero emission technologies, encouraging climate friendly enterprises, funding technology incubators, public private partnership to a green future; and future proofing air capabilities; and the mandarins will eat it up.

The end result is instead of more and more time in some "ground based learning device "the future Air Force guys and gals get more actual airtime. What's not to like about that ?
Starting everyone off on winch-launched gliders would be a useful start. Electric or hydrogen/fuel cell powered if you want to be uber-green, loads of launches, circuits and landings would be good for every pilot. 30 winch launches in 2 and half days with three solos was a fantastic grounding even if every flight was 3 mins or less.
Making a decision and picking a field was certainly good training for Sully on the Hudson. RAF trainee pilots currently kicking their heels waiting for a training slot would be better employed learning in a VGS, then training cadets instead of shuffling paper or whatever they are doing.

[TukwillaFlyboy]

That is the first truely rational comment so far in this topic!

Seriously , I wonder what some people are smoking.
Exactly what do you think the armed forces are for ?

[Stationair8]

Might as well stand into wind as p#ss, at least you will get a warm fuzzy feeling!

[bigsmelly]

I can't quite work out if everyone is being deliberately obtuse and making a joke of it, or just haven't though it through.

Battery powered light aircraft are coming and they are going to be cheaper to buy, cheaper to run and cheaper to maintain than existing platforms.
It's not the "zero emission" bit that's important -it's the through life cost.

[Lima Juliet]

https://www.flyer.co.uk/aura-aero-to-produce-electric-aerobatic-two-seater/


Solved. Expect OBE by return mail.

Endurance issues easily solved; just hook a bunch up to tow behind a Voyager and recharge by windmilling prop.

Thank you for your proposal, but sadly the 3rd wheel is at the wrong end of the aircraft for modern elementary flying training. Please return the OBE application on the way out…

:p

[Herod]

Thank you for your proposal, but sadly the 3rd wheel is at the wrong end of the aircraft for modern elementary flying training.

"Real pilots fly taildraggers"

[kirkbymoorside]

Thank you for your proposal, but sadly the 3rd wheel is at the wrong end of the aircraft for modern elementary flying training. Please return the OBE application on the way out…

:p

Fixed that for you:

https://aura-aero.com/en/integral/integral-e/

[visibility3miles]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/400x300/image_ce0436dc566c6e280f6f735edd7fe56f70e963d9.jpeg


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/474x247/image_b47910f2dce2eeb526a46d382ce484fd154332bd.jpeg