GPMG Puma fit - when did it change #2

[NIREP reader]

I’m looking for info on when the GPMG fit went from the single stock to the two handled spade affair. I’ve searched the internet and found nothing of any note. I’ve found a photo in 98 showing the twin handle and also a mid eighties cab with a single stock.

[charliegolf]

I’m looking for info on when the GPMG fit went from the single stock to the two handled spade affair. I’ve searched the internet and found nothing of any note. I’ve found a photo in 98 showing the twin handle and also a mid eighties cab with a single stock.

I certainly fired the 2 handed version in May 81 when on the OCU.

CG

[huge72]

The correct aircraft fit for GPMG on both Puma and Wessex was the two handled one. You may have seen them used with the stock fitted instead but that was essentially for Northern Ireland only. Should we have come down as a result of IRA action we could easily remove it from the aircraft and use it in the ground role. So in answer there was no specific date for one or the other fits.

[NIREP reader]

Thanks very much for replying and you’ve both answered my question, excellent.

[SASless]

You may have seen them used with the stock fitted instead but that was essentially for Northern Ireland only. Should we have come down as a result of IRA action we could easily remove it from the aircraft and use it in the ground role.



That logic seems sound and would apply to most every location Helicopters are being flown in close proximity to enemy ground forces.

Yet, rarely is that done....the using of the standard Infantry style butt stock.

During my time on Chinooks we only had the aircraft style double grip type trigger assembly and the Huey Lift Ships had the same.

Huey Gun Ship Door gunners used the Infantry style as did the LOH (Loach Scout) aircraft as the Gunners aboard those two type of aircraft used the "Free Gun" method rather than the pintle mount.

In my Unit we were more prone to resort to Rifles, Pistols, and M-79 Grenade Launchers for self protection on the Ground but were prepared and trained to dismount the two sometimes three M-60's (all with double grip trigger assembly) for added firepower. Our real hope was a rapid arrival of other helicopters bearing QRF Infantry or arrival of Armored Units that we were supporting when we were shot down or forced down due to a mechanical failure. We carried about two thousand rounds of 7.62mm Ammo for Door Guns so we would have had plenty to shoot. In our case...if we could get off a good Mayday Call....put out our location accurately....there was usually plenty of help nearby that could respond. The common practice was upon hearing a Downed Aircraft Call....everyone nearby turned and headed to the location until someone arrived on scene and took command of the recovery/rescue/reinforce effort and called off the need for further assistance. It was most comforting to know help was on the way....as it got rather lonely standing next to the aircraft listening to the tinkling of the cooling exhaust stacks and the pounding of your heart in your Ears....and no sounds of Rotor Blades banging towards you. It never happened when you had onboard a full platoon of Infantry that could act as your own personal Security Element.

[salad-dodger]

Great answer sasless. Totally irrelevant but great answer.

[diginagain]

I’m looking for info on when the GPMG fit went from the single stock to the two handled spade affair. I’ve searched the internet and found nothing of any note. I’ve found a photo in 98 showing the twin handle and also a mid eighties cab with a single stock.
AFAIK, the Lynx fit was always with the stock, for the reasons given.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/416x300/_44028932_helicopter_8702769837f67c87c80079b58b754a9dbe1c501 d.jpg

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Diginagain - agreed, when the AAC were running door-gunner courses at Wallop in the late 90's, part of the final test was to have to dismount and engage targets like an infanteer.

[exTabber]

Diginagain - agreed, when the AAC were running door-gunner courses at Wallop in the late 90's, part of the final test was to have to dismount and engage targets like an infanteer.
Did you have the strap stashed somewhere onboard?
I can’t remember ever looking at the gun in all the lifts I had, but I like the idea of the loading getting one of the pilots to lug the tripod around and the other cradling the C2 sight!

[ShyTorque]

AFAIK, the Lynx fit was always with the stock, for the reasons given.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/416x300/_44028932_helicopter_8702769837f67c87c80079b58b754a9dbe1c501 d.jpg

That's because the AAC often got shot down.... :E

[NutLoose]

The only ones I can remember on the OCU had the two handles, many a white bedsheet was killed by them.

Wessex were quite well armed in NI with a door GPMG fit, an SLR in the cabin just below the cockpit, and a SMG stowage on the pilots window frame just in front of the cockpit doors, just do not decide to take your SMG with you when collecting / acquiring a Christmas Tree. :E

[huge72]

In fact even with the stock fitted, we fitted it into the two handled fit, you would just slide it out and run away bravely if we had to!!!!! Sorry go into defensive positions and protect the aircraft.

[charliegolf]

The only ones I can remember on the OCU had the two handles, many a white bedsheet was killed by them.



Nutty, I doubt a single bedsheet got scared!

CG

[SASless]

Seems it was open season on both RAF and Army Helicopters.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_on_British_aircraft_during_The_Troubles

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The media didn't know whose was which helicopter most of the time - many RAF aircraft described as Army helicopters - typical journos. And that list isn't very accurate for the 80's.

[ShyTorque]

I think there’s a few missing from the 90’s, too.
They were “interesting”times.

[PlasticCabDriver]

The only ones I can remember on the OCU had the two handles, many a white bedsheet was killed by them.

Wessex were quite well armed in NI with a door GPMG fit, an SLR in the cabin just below the cockpit, and a SMG stowage on the pilots window frame just in front of the cockpit doors, just do not decide to take your SMG with you when collecting / acquiring a Christmas Tree. :E

Was Wessex mid 90s, we had the GPMG, pilots had an HK-53 each, carried between the seats on a mounting on the coupling gearbox, a pistol each, and crewman also carried an SA-80 with bipod, LSW maybe?

[ShyTorque]

The worst thing about the situation was the early morning visit to the armoury, collecting weapons and ammo and loading all the magazines out in the dark and the rain. Then the reverse at cease work. I think I was more concerned about the consequences of accidentally dropping and losing a round during that melee more than loosing the whole lot off in defence.

[NutLoose]

Shy, when I was out there we had a block inspection, opening the very top lockers you couldn't reach i was confronted with some 7.62 blanks and i think the odd full one, panic mode set in, what do I do with them, chucking them out the window was soon dispelled with as not a good idea, leaving them in situ wasn't a good idea either as they may be discovered on the inspection, burying them came to mind but the thought of getting caught doing it also kicked that into touch so I took them to the armoury,,, sheepishly I explained what I had found.. Ohh they will come in handy, we are often short of the odd round was the reply...

Fast forward to Bruggen where we were live armed with some mags full of ammo sealed in some really thick plastic, "to be opened if required".. you signed for x number of mags with 20 rounds in, come the time they were near life ex we would get them on our annual GDT shoot, it took us about 10 mins to chop through the plastic to get a mag out, just as well we never needed them. then the good old "in your own time" 20 rounds.. 16, 17 click....... turns out a lot of them obviously filled by bored armourers tasked with filling xyz amount of mags several years prior and never had the 20 rounds in you signed for...

[ShyTorque]

Nutty, difference was that we were flying around in what the IRA considered (and were publicised as) prime targets.

[NutLoose]

True, but then the whole of the military was a target in NI. Bruggen was a different type of war situation, it may have been peacetime but it involved live buckets of instant sunshine, hence the musket and ammo....

[SASless]

Nutty, Peace time rules in a combat situation? How quaint a notion. Did Quartermaster Edward Bloomfield have offspring serving in the Army and RAF during those times? Asking for a friend!:ugh:

[NutLoose]

It got me that if anyone tried to climb the fence we had to give a warning in English before opening fire, the fact that they possibly couldn’t understand the language was tough. The military in Germany was also targets of the IRA SAS, there were several attacks.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ira+attack+germany&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari

[SASless]

We had our own stupid Rules that had tragic results....Sentries with unloaded weapons....Beirut Airport....261 Dead.

[ShyTorque]

True, but then the whole of the military was a target in NI. Bruggen was a different type of war situation, it may have been peacetime but it involved live buckets of instant sunshine, hence the musket and ammo....

Yes, I know - did my tour out there during those times - cars with BFG registration plates were nice easy targets, too, until the authorities decided too many innocent dependents had been murdered and issued local plates.

[huge72]

Shy, We all had the worries of loosing rounds at a months pay each. M*** L****** lost a 9mm round but didn't get fined, as we all knew where it was! It had fallen from the top of the arming pit between the pit and the armoury wall and if you got real close to the wall you could see it. I guess it was still there when we all pulled out and left the place to the AAC. I had a scare, when I used to keep my mag in my webbing holster. As we were flying around one day I looked down and there was a round on the sill. I had worn a hole at the bottom of my holster and it had dropped out! Lesson learned, I kept them in my top pocket ever after.

[charliegolf]

Thread creep, apocryphal story went about in NI... SLR user (hopefully not) back at the armoury, instead of removing the rounds like a normal person, cocked the weapon 20 times into the sand and collected them from there! Any truth?

My loaded mag of 20 went in my upper left pocket, and I think I kept my pistol mag in the gun? Time, fading memories etc. I wore a shoulder holster (a nice one, not the hole in the bottom one), 'cos I didn't want to take the wrong belt off inadvertently at the wrong time!

CG

[Rigga]

...Fast forward to Bruggen where we were live armed with some mags full of ammo sealed in some really thick plastic, "to be opened if required".. you signed for x number of mags with 20 rounds in, ...

Similar situation at Laarbruch where the emphasis was on Blue, Black and Pink zones containing said buckets of sunshine before the IRA got busy in Europe. The twist there was that, because I lived in a quarter on camp, I had to take my gun home with me and place it in the rifle rack there! That drew some comment from wife and in-laws!

[ShyTorque]

I kept my loaded 9mm mag in the pistol; I had a leather holster so it was safe enough. I was slim hipped enough to wear it on a waist belt whilst sitting in the armoured seat - others couldn't!. Same with the SA-80. Can't recall where I kept the second mag for that one but it was at immediate readiness.

I remember "Sid" B****er panicking having dropped and lost a round outside the armoury, only to be hugely relieved when he found it lurking in the fabric surround of his flying suit knee-pad.

[SASless]

Odd thing....I was posted from a Unit up north where we were fighting Main Force NVA Divisions.....to down near Saigon where most of the contacts were with VC units....and upon arrival I had an M-16 and a 12 gauge Pump Shotgun.....with a fair bit of ammo for each....and the question asked was....."what are doing with those?".

The natural response was "shoot at folks sometimes.....what else would I do with them?".

Things were a bit more relaxed up north it would seem but then it was far more a real live shooting war up there.

Things changed later on when the Main Force NVA Units began to show up in the Cambodia Border areas.

Seems a lot of agro over a single Round of Ammo during your time.

But then when you are shooting up Thousands of Rounds in a day.....and hitting the FARP Ammo Resupply Point and helping yourself to what you needed....a single Round became quite insignificant.

I preferred calling in 105/155/ and 8 inch Artillery fire missions instead of just pattering back with some 7.62 MG Rounds......as the HE Rounds had more effective than did the Military Ball MG Ammo did.

[diginagain]

Did my APWT on the HK53 on arrival in theatre, puzzled to find I'd only fired 19 rounds. On checking my beret where I'd put the rounds before loading the mag I found the missing item, and having already made a declaration that I had none in my possession, and that such an item might have a value to me later in my tour, it went into a pocket.

[ShyTorque]

Seems a lot of agro over a single Round of Ammo during your time.

All to do with politics. We were fighting a civil war under peacetime rules and the lawyers were our main enemies.

[bspatz]

Back in 1979 I was involved in preparing to move 230Sqn from Odiham to Gutersloh. As this meant dividing all Puma spares and role equipment in half we carried out a full fleet wide inventory check of Puma kit; something not done for some time as these checks were normally only carried out on individual aircraft rather than the whole force. Unsurprisingly this revealed huge shortages of role equipment including nearly all the gun mounts and pintles. Due to the scale and cost of these losses the supply management branch insisted that we justified all the items that were needed and I ended up making a visit to the SH staff in MOD to try and get the necessary funding. Interestingly, when it came to the gun mounts and pintles I was advised that guns would never be fitted to the Puma and MOD would not support the purchase of replacements!

[antisthenes]

Brings back memories of the famous "ammunition amnesty" in the late 80s when an entire arsenal appeared.