Ex KA captains being offered JFO position

[doublelift]

Speechless to CX management
soon will see FOs teaching captains flying the neo

[Rie]

You expected direct commands for everyone? Would never have happened. Only way to get DEC is to go to UO but even then I cannot see that going down all that well.

[Krone]

A number of ex ka A320 skippers were in their early to mid 30s. 10years in CX, to make an early command on the 320, after doing some long haul in between. Still under 45 . Tell that to the Americans.

KA used to take on FOs in their early 50s , with heaps of command airline time . Thats seniority. It can be a bummer when it works against you.

However, Its all rather better than being unemployed and unrated.

[Fly747]

There is no more seniority. Some of them won’t be FO for very long, they will be needed in the LHS.

[LongTimeInCX]

It’s very simple.
Which position currently pays more, CX FO or KA Capt?
Also depends on perspective. Are they lucky to have a job, or unlucky to have lost one?
Do I consider myself lucky to have left last year - most certainly!

The KA fallout has however had unfortunate collateral damage. The scurrilous lobbying by many of the ex KA guys of local Legco members and politicians, could well be the reason why many much longer serving CX staff on bases, which are closed/closing, who were
never given work visas, are now unable to continue flying in HK, unless granted a visa. How likely that is, can be anyone’s guess.

Imagine how galling that is when a based 13/14 yr cx crew, who joined with significant previous and/or military time, is now effectively displaced by a spotty local who spent 1-2 yrs with KA.
All somewhat ironic.

Therefore any complaints from exKA crew who are being given the option of a job, are likely to fall on deaf ears, although personally, I wish them well.

[Bangaluru]

Cathay advertised FO and SO positions. Who expected Cathay to offer direct entry commands?

[BalloonBuster]

Fly747

Indeed, some won’t be FO very long since they will not make it through the training.

Still a large number of OZ, Canadian and Brits in the C&T department who have friends on bases that have been kicked out to make room for the KA bunch that went crying in court.
If i was a new joiner now, i would be very worried about the upcoming check and training

[Fly747]

I don’t think so BB, they will be trained by and well known to the 7 x DECs from KA that are running the Neo fleet.

[852pilot]

BalloonBuster

Don’t forget to bring this over to EK and treat the princes like that.
Or you get yourself and your kind famous and never get a job.

[Angel 8]

Some really bitter and twisted comments above.
Thats why, in Aviation, its always, always, good to remember: What Goes Around, Comes Around.
Don’t upset people on your way up, as you might have to deal with them on your way down…
I wish all the best to all who will have a job, enjoy it with dignity.

[Mill Worker]

Is this correct? Based Pilots being sacked as they hire externally?

[Bueno Hombre]

Some keen First Officers, know, and can teach, the stuff that needs to be taught', better than established Captains

[deja vu]

All very predictable sadly. No more seniority, DEC while long term cx guys laid off.

All those who turned the AOA into a toothless tiger over the last 25 years need to hang their heads in shame.

[Bueno Hombre]

doublelift

If First officer knows more about the operation of the type, what is wrong about that during the training process?

[deja vu]

Bueno Hombre

You know it, your like minded buddies know it but somehow the training department don't know it, funny that.

[Jamesd03]

Bueno Hombre

Maybe there's nothing wrong? Fresh eyes always helped. New perspective could make things better?

[FlightoftheNavigator]

Sorry, but it's not our fault that you bet on the wrong horse. As many KA crew have said, often and loudly, it was very good while it lasted. And now that it's gone, you expect to just rock up at cx and take a command slot away from someone who's worked their way up over 10+ years? You're already taking an FO slot away from some 5+ year SO! Should be thankful you're not joining as an SO at the bottom of the seniority list, like most of us did!
And sorry to break it to all you "skygods", but the 320 is just another commercial jet... Not some magical new invention that's gonna have us all scratching our heads wondering how to operate.

[Flex88]

Angel 8

You obviously do not know what you're talking about.. Upsetting people on the way "up" at CX is EXACTLY why the Swire Princelings promote them.. Most don't have the stomach for it but the ones there from the 3rd floor & up today and all those before them who left with their big bonus cheques are masters of the art !

[Dan Winterland]

And sorry to break it to all you "skygods", but the 320 is just another commercial jet... Not some magical new invention that's gonna have us all scratching our heads wondering how to operate.

That's true. the 320 is easy to operate, but marginally harder than the 330. What is more difficult is the high threat short haul environment in the PRC in which these aircraft will mostly operate and which CX don't have a great deal of experience. I suspect the CX management realize the best way to prevent racking up more demerit points and getting the airline banned from the PRC is to leave it to the experts..

[fatbus]

Popcorn time!

[Dragon Pacific]

Correct Dan. De-merit points are the key.

[Gnadenburg]

FlightoftheNavigator

Well done for getting a seniority clause in the contract you signed back in November 2020. Stops CX taking advantage of the DEC option.

The cadre of ex-KA A320 pilots in CX presided over a system that sustained a 100% command failure rate on the A320. This left plenty of experienced KA pilots scratching their heads. Granted, the TRG Dept changed direction significantly and many of those same guys responsible for the positive outcomes. However, now you have to add CX's woeful SOPs and management into the mix and the A320 operation becomes needlessly stressful in all the wrong areas. Perhaps this goes someways in explaining CX's poor record in China?

[Oddball77]

Dan Winterland

China is more of a frustrating place to fly rather than a 'high threat' environment. It's the only place in the world I've flown where you are under radar control a 100% of the time.

[doublelift]

Dan Winterland

Asking experts for help but not paying for the expert money. If I was those KA guys, you pay me FO money I would just do an FO jobs, sat there and watching Captains **** up.

[fly1981]

thats a very dangerous attitude to have.

[controlledrest]

I am inclined towards keeping it safe, but not really helping much. Some demerit points and a ban from China would suit me fine. It is not as though I give a :mad: about the company, they have completely pissed away any good will.

[Rie]

Rather not walk away from a cocked up Mainland expedition with a warning letter. If anyone is going in thinking they can sit back and watch a Captain screw something up they won't have a long career with CX.

[LLLQNH]

Or any other airline. I'm sure the majority of ex KA people will have great attitudes and be good guys & gals sadly the few making the comments here are tarnishing the image of the group.

[sjimmy]

And there you have it!
Again a massive own goal by CX.
Ex KA drivers thinking they are entitled to jobs in an airline they never worked for.
Just reading the comments above you can already see the massive CRM problems on the horizon.
”just do the FO job”
maybe that was the case in KA but in CX you expected to behave like a future captain in any seat.
Also had to laugh about the expert comment, China nowadays is just another place we fly to. Do as your told unless you don’t like it.
Demerit point have mostly been “awarded” on long haul flights, where sadly crew were too lazy to look at the map where an FIR starts or stops.
This is a training and experience issue and is resolved for a while.
I do hope that the majority of Ex KA bus drivers have the same mentality as the EX KA freighter drivers we have since 2008 because they are a pleasure to work with and get on with it, regardless the seat they are in.

[Stone Temple Pilot]

LongTimeInCX

I can imagine it being just as galling as the thought of a 23/24 yr KA crew (who has had Hong Kong as their home for decades), who joined with significant previous and/or military time, now effectively being replaced by a spotty iCadet from Oz or SA or the UK, who spent 1-2 yrs with CX on work visa, flying the KA NEOs and 330s to all the former KA destinations.
The irony is in the eye of the beholder.

[Dingleberry Handpump]

Except they’re flying CX aircraft on routes that CX deploy them on. KA don’t have any, because they don’t exist. There’s always a vacuum to fill when an airline closes.

I feel for the ex-KA guys, but the sense of entitlement in thinking they should stroll into a new airline at the position they enjoyed at their now defunct employer beggars belief.

[Stone Temple Pilot]

Dingleberry,

Add another except...

Except it isn't really a new airline or a defunct employer per se, is it? We were effectively one airline.
Dragon was Cathay.
Cathay made sure of telling us that all the time on "the Hub" - about all our new aircraft (except they were always green in color), about all our new routes (except they were flown by green airplanes) and all about our People directors (except nobody knew who they were) and our Group Safety Department (that nobody knew where was located).
We never wanted to be "on the Hub", to have Cathay smeared all over the fuselage, to "go beyond" and be "part of the team" - while we were clearly NOT really part of the team (not even in the crew room as it turns out, interpreting a lot of attitudes on this forum)!

So, if we leave it at the assumption that CX now miraculously has come up with their own ideas for new routes and picked up some cheap airframes that a "defunct" airline has left behind;
Fair enough if Dragon was a loss making airline, heading for bankruptcy.
It would close down because it was effectively "defunct" as you call it. Cathay could pick up the pieces. Fine by me. We could have seen the writing on the wall.
But that was not really the case either, was it?
Dragon was the money maker, full of the most loyal employees of the group, the airline's gold mine, and oh yes, dare I say it, was getting the highest IOSA audit results repeatedly.

So, effectively it was a company take-over.
In the real world, this is dealt with in accordance with a civilised suit of laws, full of respect and rights for the employees who have built this nest egg up over the years.

So yes, there is ABSOLUTELY a sense of entitlement. But NO rights or respect.

For a moment, please consider that HKE would take over CX next month: all long haul flown by HKE pilots, taking all the routes and the aircraft. All flown by South Americans on work visas with 3-4 years of seniority.
Would you not feel a sense of entitlement to follow your planes and routes to the group airline (effectively still Cathay) taking over your company?

That a few local (as in PR holding or passport holding locals) would join Cathay as a brand new employee on a piss poor salary, starting from scratch on the same airplane and routes they have flown for 10 years for the same airline, only beggars belief in one respect: That I personally wonder why on earth anybody would want to work for Cathay.

Cathay was, is and always will be toxic!

I wouldn't expect many to join for the same reason, stop your worries and look for an exit strategy yourself.

In all cases, I am a firm believer that there are no real positions available - clearly for me, this is only done to show the immigration department that they are actively recruiting and hence need to extent the work visas.

[Dingleberry Handpump]

What they wrote on the Hub is irrelevant. KA was deliberately kept separate. It was a different entity and AOC. It has now closed.

I appreciate that in reality it was an in-house feeder, but that doesn’t matter. It was kept aside and has been closed.

Again, I feel for the KA crews. Out of interest, how would you merge two lists when one involves commands after a year versus one that has 12-13 year FOs waiting for their shot?

Surely you appreciate why CX guys would have feelings along that topic.

Personally, I would like to see the KA guys offered positions before externals; and I would gladly accept rank based on longevity. I think that’s fair. We chose CX and you chose KA.

to the pillocks that think I’ll struggle flying KA routes - get over yourselves. It’s a plane, and a country that is fundamentally easy to fly in. You do as you’re told unless you can’t. Nothing more. None of my friends who flew in China for the first time as contract skippers had any issues. 2 wings, some engines etc.

[DrFaustus]

doublelift

I sincerely hope that you are not a professional pilot.
Your proposed behavior leaves me speechless.
You sound more like a frequent traveler than an expert to me.

[SaulGoodman]

Dingleberry Handpump

Stone Temple Pilot would most likely be right if this had happened in “the West”.

KA had the same owners. Now CX uses KA airplanes to fly KA routes. 2 AOC’s would not have meant much. KLM and Cityhopper have two different AOC’s for example. And there are many more examples. This is a huge FU to all KA personnel involved!

[Rie]

Many of those KA wide bodies were ex CX... Thank god they scrapped HLJ.

I do note that the have made CX and UO very seperate right now. The employee of UO don't even have CX staff travel, they are forced to pay higher fares via MyID. Maybe learning from mistakes incase anyone tries to claim they deserve a job at CX just because they are owned by the same group.

[swh]

doublelift

I must have blinked, when did KA operate the NEO ?

[Dingleberry Handpump]

SaulGoodman

Cityhopper crew are on the same MSL as KLM.

Anyhow, the decision has been made, so folks need to get on with life. It doesn’t matter what you or I think..

[fly1981]

swh

they didn’t. However, most were 320/321 type rated… and most narrow body Ka pilots had completed all the Neo differences training.

[Dingleberry Handpump]

I’m sure it’ll be a massive struggle for mere 350/330 pilots. After all, there was a massive failure rate for the hundreds of 777 guys who crossed over to Airbus over the last 3.5 years.

Oh, wait…

[852pilot]

Can’t agree more!

Since when ppl start thinking they really own the company after signing the “shameful” COS18? Remember all the right you lost and your allowance is coming to an end very soon.

Everyone just an ERN.

[SaulGoodman]

Dingleberry Handpump

They are now…. But they didn’t used to..

[Dingleberry Handpump]

maybe you should get a job with them then..

[Rie]

fly1981

In the real world the NEO differences is a PowerPoint slide. I wouldn’t exactly call it proper training. There are no mandatory sims or any other useful requirements. It’s still a 320 series with minimal changes.

[Gnadenburg]

sjimmy

There are a few posts on this thread that carry similar sentiments. I find many delusional. You seem to have forgotten what you've signed and given the unprecedented circumstances of the pandemic, hold dearly to what you have, with a misperceived legacy pilot glory. However, are Cathay pilots still legacy standard pilots? The contract has deteriorated so dramatically, it's too early to define where CX pilots will actually sit when aviation rebounds. Many of my CX friends are leaving and the ones who can't are oddly eating into their savings in hope!

An experienced pilot will not find China difficult to fly in. Having been stuck behind Cathay jets for 20 years going into Hong Kong, as they often sit low and slow, sometimes on the TCAS peripherals, perhaps the best approach for China is to fly as the Chinese carriers do? It looks rank-amateur, but as you are paid similar to mainland pilots, Green Dot at 20 miles will not only keep you out of trouble, but also keep the dollars ticking over. CX don't fly visual approaches nor circle as KA did, so perhaps dumbing down the 320 operation with speed restrictions a useful tool to avoid transitionary issues into China and onto the narrow-body?

China needs to be viewed holistically. Over the years, at 300K a month, 10 weeks leave etc, a KA pilot would still be mentally done. It all gets too much. Some snapped, some just packed up quietly and left. It's the remote hotels, where you can not find food, where the government regulates the room temperature to 24 degrees in winter and you can't rest, the grind, the delays undetermined. This is the first sector. Two more to go to complete your 13 hour day. Now, I look at your contract and the seriousness with which you seem to take yourself and I can see why nobody I know, former KA, applied to CX. It's not tenable for many.

Adding to all this, the world has changed, China has changed. KA pilots well-handled being targeted during the civil disturbances in Hong Kong. Ramp checks and being monitored and reported for any indiscretion. It may well be plain hostile in the future.

So I hope you can see China isn't just about pulling off a simple intercept from above into KMG, it's going to get into the heads of a lot of people, especially on the contract you've signed.

maybe that was the case in KA but in CX you expected to behave like a future captain in any seat.

This brings us back to KMG and many former KA pilots will have a laugh. The famous CX exchange pilot we were sent, botched the approach and blamed the F/O on the ground for not explaining the traps of the approach.

But here's tip for three sectors into China. Don't worry about the silliness of having a 200hr pilot behave like a Captain. Relax a bit. You'll wear out your crew- if the white noise hadn't already done so.

[Veruka Salt]

Good past Gnadenburg. But to be fair, the CX exchange pilot we sent you was hardly our finest. Hence why he’s spent most of his CX career hiding in management roles;)

[Becky330]

Nice one Gnadenburg. The hard pill to swallow isn't having to go from 4-bars to 2. Nor is it having to 'babysit' a 777 skipper who has had little experience flying in the PRC. Both sides can adapt to the flying with ease. We are professionals and I am sure the common distaste for the company would be a real icebreaker and team bonding experience.

The real hard pill is having to do the same job for a lot less money. It will be tough to stay motivated having to wait 12-15 years for command. How do you keep the donkey running when you don't even offer a proper carrot.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the KA guys leave after getting a free rating renewal and some seat time.

[bringbackthe80s]

I think the magnitude of the storm we are in is still not clear to many people

[fly1981]

rie,

I never disputed that…. However, differences training is required in one form or another , and many of the young local TYPE RATED Ka pilots pushing the issue of re employment have completed all the training required. They have obviously presented a solid case, as was proven by the IMMD putting their foot down. Cx’s 321 training procedures are a carbon copy of the Ka procedures, the reason they employed the top brass Ka training managers. I take my hat off to the captains joining as fo’s…people need jobs, especially younger pilots that are only starting their careers, families, life in general. These pilots have swallowed enough of their pride, being ‘employed’ by the company that effectively destroyed their past, flying the aircraft they were bound to fly, on a route network they have been part of for years, in a lesser rank for half the money, to be greeted with the animosity shown in this thread and many others is absolutely ludicrous.

[Oasis]

There was no 'animosity' until it was suggested they should start their position in their old rank. That is not real world thinking.

[Sam Ting Wong]

When will we finally accept that our individual differences, skills and experience levels are irrelevant?

A career in this industry is largely down to luck and maybe a bit of risk taking. You are either at the right time at the right place or you ain't.

Be kind to those in a worse position, chances are you will be next.

[Dingleberry Handpump]

Oasis

Correct. Obviously those who have to wax-lyrical about how difficult it is to fly in the mainland are revealing more about themselves.

KA was folded. Their guys & girls are sadly unemployed. Those looking to join another airline as an employee will start at the bottom - including at CX. Sorry, thats how it works.

[controlledrest]

That is not how it works at CX. DEFO is not starting at the bottom, it is shafting the SOs.

[Dingleberry Handpump]

Yes I’m quite aware of that. It’s been thus for a very long time. The point I was making was that anyone joining CX is doing so through the usual, long-standing arrangement.

[Gnadenburg]

Dingleberry Handpump

The Mainland is tough. It takes its toll. It helps if you are very comfortable with the aeroplane. You can take that or leave it.

I can happily report, KA pilots are being re-employed. I'd say at a guess about 10% of our former Captains have been re-hired. Pretty amazing because its barren out there. All that I know have been rehired as Direct Entry Captains. Including eight at Cathay Pacific.

If you re-read your own posts you may see why many would think you are delusional. I don't wish you malice, but the contract you signed clearly opens the way for DEC's at Cathay. Will that option be exercised?

[Pistolpete47]

Why is it that Aviation is the only industry where if you change employers then you have to start at the bottom? It doesn't happen for lawyers, doctors etc. I can only see it as harming ourselves.

[LLLQNH]

Because of the unions. In the west aviation is heavily heavily unionised. After the shambles of how Covid and everything was handled here I can see the benefits of strong unionisation. Wouldn't it be wonderful if companies stuck to their word and followed their contracts

[fatbus]

I was a training captain at 3 airlines , all 3 I started at the bottom as an FO. This thing about retaining Rank and position is ego . Those that can't deal with it wil struggle .

[Dingleberry Handpump]

Gnadenburg

11075711]Dingleberry Handpump

The mainland isn’t tough. You do as you’re told. There’s a couple of quirks to it, but I can happily report that all of my former KA colleagues found it fairly straightforward.

Aside from the 320 EIS brigade, why would CX exercise DEC options? There are hundreds more skippers than needed, and that isn’t changing for years.

[Memorylapse]

What a sad bunch you are! CX is not nearly out of trouble yet, and with no inidication of when travel will pick up many of you might be out of jobs a few months down the line anyway. And here you are throwing your toys out of the cot because there will be a DEFO in the right seat flying your shiny little new Neo’s into ****hole China a few years down the line. Get a life!

[CRWCRW]

‘Ex KA captains being offered JFO position’
WTF? No such thing as a JFO these days in CX.

[airdualbleedfault]

The mainland isn’t tough. You do as you’re told. There’s a couple of quirks to it, but I can happily report that all of my former KA colleagues found it fairly straightforward.
You would have to be some sort of useful idiot to believe that, terrain, weather, ATC speaking in Mandarin or level 3 English, metres and/or QFE, crap controlling with multiple runway changes in the last 50 miles. Straightforward? Sure I guess if you were one of the crew of the Apollo 13 it may seem that way.
Of course after operating in that environment 150 times a year you get comfortable (or worse complacent) but it's anything other than straightforward. I believe IOSA would back me up on that :rolleyes:

[swh]

This is all just made up rubbish, there hasn’t been an airliner accident in the PRC for over a decade, all accidents by PRC carriers happen outside the PRC. IOSA does not support any notion that flying in China is difficult or dangerous, the PRC spends big on infrastructure, they continue to open new massive airports like Chengdu Tianfu International Airport. The county has radar coverage everywhere, runways are long and wide, good lights, and ILS. They plan to have another 120 airports the size of Chengdu Tianfu open in the next 10 years.

KA promoted some new joiners to CN in under a year, PRC airlines employed DEC contractors on the A320/737 they flew around accident free, they even put 200 hr pilots in the RHS of these narrow bodies.

How any KA pilot could have done 150 PRC trips a year is beyond me, two months of leave and all those other days off.

[fly1981]

10 months solid flying, minimum off days, 2-3 sectors every working day, that’s how. The ‘new’ joiners that were promoted to captain in under a year almost all had previous China experience, and almost all had substantial airbus experience.
cx’s demerit points in China tell a different story.

[Dan Winterland]

This is all just made up rubbish, there hasn’t been an airliner accident in the PRC for over a decade

I mentioned it's a high threat environment. It's not just about safety (or perceived safety in the PRC's case). It's very stressful, political and confrontational on top of the factors airdualblledfault mentioned. When KA conducted a fatigue survey some ten years ago, one interesting metric was that flying in the PRC was more stressful that the majority of their other destinations by a factor of two. I've flown in every part of the world except Aus and NZ (perhaps that's my problem?) and I would say the 20 years I spent flying in China was the worst. If you think you can start an operation almost from scratch in this environment without issues, you're deluded. The CX management will know and realize the increase in threats to their operation; they would be negligent not to use their best resources to mitigate them. And no accidents in a decade? Not correct.

[swh]

fly1981

Hyperbole, KA had destinations in many countries, the minority of destinations were in the PRC, doing this in my head so forgive me if I forget any
India - 2
Nepal - 1
Bangladesh - 1
Myanmar - 1
Thailand - 3
Cambodia - 2
Vietnam - 2
Malaysia - 4
Indonesia - 2
PRC - 25
Taiwan - 3
Philippines - 2
Japan - 9
South Korea - 2

No KA pilot was doing 150 sectors a year into the PRC. That claim like many others on this thread on the difficulty and dangers of flying into the PRC, the difficulty of flying an A320, the superiority of KA pilots etc are all baseless. We all know it, grasping at straws is unbecoming.

The hard earned professional respect and courtesy that KA pilots earned over the years is being thrown away in minutes with these obviously false claims.

[Oasis]

Finally some sense into this conversation.

[Oddball77]

airdualbleedfault

What a crock of hyped up nonsense; as for terrain you're under radar control all the time in China, even low temperature corrections are factored in for terrain avoidance; with weather, in China the whole operation ceases if there's massive weather en-route or over an airport, just expect epic delays.

As for ATC speaking in Mandarin, that's true, but if they are speaking in Mandarin, it's definitely not to you.

Regarding last minute RWY changes, how hard is it activating the secondary flight plan or just changing the RWY information on the MCDU?

[Oasis]

Flying into Beijing and doing a briefing...

'I will brief for 18r, have 18c in the box, but we will probably get 18l, don't ask me about the arrival, any questions?'

[skankhunt42]

They flew 4 times a week in to Nepal, and there were at least 4 flights in a morning to Shanghai alone. I've seen some of their rosters before, I don't think 150 sectors a year in to the PRC is off by that much, oh and don't forget the multi sector days.

[propje]

With an average of 30+ sectors a month, majority of sectors outside the prc taken for training, so yes 150 sectors a year in the prc achieved very easy for ex KA pilots

[Alistair]

swh - Just a quick look at my logbook shows 165 sectors in and out of the PRC in my last pre-covid normal calendar year. I completed 241 sectors for the year which was pretty normal for a line pilot on the 320 with KA. This included multiple O days in China (mostly spent looking for a half decent feed), 5 train trips from ZSQD to ZHHH and around 14 weeks leave for the year (I was owed a bunch of days from previous years). I could give you 15 -20 years of data from the 330 and 320 fleets but what would be the point, you already know all about the work we did at KA.

I'm not going to get in a pissing contest with people about our job with KA. It's gone. Those of us who did it know what was involved. We sucked it up, got it done, got paid well and went home to our families and friends. You can keep your professional respect and courtesy if your comments are the extent of it's worth. Good luck to whomever in CX picks up the KA routes and rosters once/if things get back to normal. I wouldn't do it for POS18.

To all my ex KA brothers and sisters...We had a great team and I miss working with you all. Hang in there.

[852pilot]

swh

Very good management potential by twisting around numbers. Most “non China” ports are operated by wide body or taken for training flights and mostly more than 150 sectors/year.

There is no superiority in KA except “practice makes perfect”.
How many approach have you done a year pre-COVID? Any 3-2-3 pattern or 6day work without O day with single G and min. rest restless overnights?

Please put your hand up for the 321 course. You will love it!

[propje]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x960/cfd4dea1_f8a6_4536_a1c2_255f93b720a4_200a8180fe6677df300076d ea062f4f2a8c4b555.jpeg
For those at cx who think that we at ka couldn’t do 150 sectors in the prc, well have a look at this typical roster at ka for a 320 driver

[fly1981]

swh

it has absolutely nothing to do with how many destinations Ka serviced, it has all to do with the frequency at which the destinations were serviced. If you don’t understand that, you have bigger problems than learning how to fly a Neo.

[swh]

Alistair

Alistair what you are saying is totally in line with what my friends who were on the A320 were doing, 80ish PRC flights a year, an average of 8 a month/2 per week was pretty normal. What was being claimed above was 150 flights or 300 sectors a year in and out of the PRC, which I think you would agree it is an embellishment.

My KA A320 friends were home far more often than I was, flew way less hours. Swapping war stories their biggest grips were the lack of experience many FOs had, and endless delays. Never did difficulties flying the A320 or danger in flying into the PRC came up.

[swh]

propje

Why did you have to go back to April 2016 to find an example of a “typical” roster ?

[Gnadenburg]

I'll try and make my point again. This may differ from the views of my former colleagues.

The flying in China is the easy part. If you have high levels of experience on the Airbus the curve balls that are thrown at you are moderately challenging. I feel for the guys that may have been on the edge of their seats all day. That's a young man's game. You could see it in the ASR's.

Perhaps the now universal D Scale pilots at Cathay will get better hotels than the former KA? Better buses? Better rosters? Maybe the leisure destinations that give you a breather from the PRC won't go to HKEX, they'll be given to CX? Perhaps the issues with KA training will never rear again? The high failure rates.

The Mainland is really tough. In 2019 I was shocked at guys doing the KA gig for COS18. And when, despite some of the delusion above, the reality sets in, doing the job as a D Scaler will eventually be too much for many at CX.

[Gnadenburg]

swh

Very few. All had ten thousand hours of Airbus short haul experience. Some failed ( CX training may be better or not involve the silly mercilessness of KA? )

But what's your point?

Oddball77

There's one well documented case and some anecdotes where KA crew didn't cross a runway with a mainland aircraft on the roll. I know CX guys are super knowledgable but knowing a few critical ATC phrases in Mandarin may save the day.

Last minute runway changes were no problem except for the short time we had CX SOPs. ASR's with up to five runway changes not uncommon in PEK. I think they've improved. However, I think they put their B team on ground movements.

[Alistair]

swh

You stated that No KA pilot was doing 150 sectors a year into the PRC. which is patently incorrect. I'm not sure where the 150 flights/300 sectors comes from?

The point about the PRC and KA's operation being tough is being misconstrued. It would be disingenuous not to acknowledge the draining nature of dealing with KA's PRC rosters. Any reasonable operator could meet the standard required for the flying, 200 hour MPL's could and did, with a lot of mentoring.

I see Gnadenburg has clarified his earlier comments. I agree wholeheartedly with what he is saying.

I would not have done our job for POS18. Anyone who thinks it is a piece of cake for that reward might be in for a bit of a surprise.

[swh]

Gnadenburg

There is a lot of inaccurate information being posted on this thread to make CX pilots seem inept or incompetent, for example you stated earlier that CX does not fly visual approaches, they are flown daily on everything from the A330 to 747. I have had a KA jump seat CN with a J class FOC that had been in the company less than a year, total time around 6000 hrs, the A320 was the only aircraft they had flown since flight school, never flown in Asia before. During the flight he made several insensitive comments about his remuneration and benefits which my 10+ year local SFO was not too pleased about. The hyperbole over many threads by a few ex-KA pilots is dong the majority a vast disservice. The KA guys I knew would never say that sort of thing to my face, we had mutual respect for each others job.

Alistair

Have a look further up in the thread, I replied to dualbleedfauls post saying they operated 150 flights to the PRC a year (i.e 300 sectors), "How any KA pilot could have done 150 PRC trips a year is beyond me, two months of leave and all those other days off." 80ish flights a years like you were saying was very normal, that is only an average of 2 a week. As you have demonstrated around 1/3 of your flights were outside the PRC.

Current advertised contact rates for A320 captains in the PRC are around US$4000 per month, pre-COVID it is was up around US$20,000. To set the bar so low they must be getting takers, US$4000 is better than zero.

[fly1981]

Of course after operating in that environment 150 times a year you get comfortable

swh,

I believe you are referring to the above post, he never said 150 trips, he said ‘in that environment 150 times…’. Perhaps check your English level before getting so worked up about something you very clearly know nothing about. Secondly, any pilot that passed the command training at Ka was worthy of the left seat, that I can assure you.

[Weary traveller]

This is all becoming a little petty. As an ex KA fellow I implore my ex colleagues to stop defending what we did. We all know what was involved in our day to day operation and there’s no point trying to convince those that don’t want to hear it otherwise. Just smile and walk away. It’s perfectly acceptable to chuckle as you wander off knowing the reality of PRC flying will dawn on those above in due course.

[fatbus]

WT great post !

[Flying Clog]

As someone who flies for 'green' on a fleet that regularly flies to the dreaded PRC, I wholeheartedly agree with WT.

And the rest of you children stop the bickering.

[lucille]

One wonders how those thousands of former expat pilots who lived and flew solely in the PRC ever managed to exist. Must have been super men.One can’t even begin to imagine the privations of not having a DB bubble to strut around in.

Get a grip, it’s just another job. There are better place and there are worse, far worse,

[Dragon Baron]

I like data so I just had a quick look in my logbook, PRC sectors last few years...

2015 147
2016 164
2017 174
2018 156
2019 131

Dangerous? Not particularly. Difficult? Again, no especially once you've done it a few times, I got LHS after 18 months with no prior Airbus, command or Asia experience.
But it was UTTERLY exhausting. Low level cruise noise, delays, flying nights, earlies, lates, diverting and having to stay on the jet for another 6 hours at the whim of officials, 180 kts with 50nm to go, 60 min turnarounds in HKG with an aircraft change, ATC saying go slow, go fast, go away, cannot divert to nominated alternate, do an orbit in cruise, I could go on. Don't miss it a bit. You lot are welcome to do it and find out for yourselves, maybe its all fine now...

[MENELAUS]

lucille

Agreed. Give me India any day. At least they’re not deliberately obstructive. Or even the Dark Continent. China. Thankfully I’ll never see it again. Not even from 9600 M rate of descent 3000 or more.

[Gnadenburg]

lucille

Again, the point has been lost.

However, I did note on social media a CX Captain complaining of the new normal. A turn-around to XMN taking 12-15 hours. Geez you haven't even started going there on the NEO's and the bitching has started!

Please keep the PRC reports coming in on Instagram folks.

[Dragon Pacific]

777 captains started training on the Neo this week at the rate of two a week. Many are getting the rating as part of their exit strategy; they won’t be doing that many China sectors before they leave.

[noboloco]

Exit strategy? Lol. Is that the same exit strategy that has apparently been in the process for years? The one that will only ever eventuate once they reach retirement age.
I’d love to know where these hypothetical better jobs are.

[Dragon Pacific]

That’s the exit strategy to deal with the imminent loss/reduction of housing and education benefits. They may never use an Airbus rating but at least they will have it in their back pocket.

[noboloco]

so where has better housing/education benefits?
just curious because back home you wouldn’t get any. And it’s not like the package at EK is any better.

[volare_737]

Maybe not now, but it will come !

[SaulGoodman]

They might join Wizzair on one of their fantastic eastern European bases

[Rie]

The smartest thing to do right now is go across to the NEO for the rating. I already have one from my days back home that I have kept current. Any extra rating should be most important to do for anyone who is returning to their own country. More chances to find employment.

As a sidenote Ryanair are hiring...

[jjmclure]

Regardless Fo or Captain, most x KA guys I have spoken to say they have no real desire to return to Cx or Uo.
Such a shame.
And for those in Cx that enjoy belittling x KA guys , be careful you never know who will be doing your future interviews!

[Memorylapse]

Rie

Having a type rating with no hours on type is pointless….

[Rie]

Not if you are already Airbus rated and have a large amount of bus time. Most European airlines accept any bus. Even FBW time on the triple would work in your favour for some airlines. Didn't a triple FO go to fly a bus in Belgium last year?

[Memorylapse]

Fair enough - your point noted.

[deja vu]

Hard work, you guys have no idea.

Try the 737-200 into PRC in the 80's. No FMS, magenta lines, map displays, GPS, RNAV approaches, TCAS, ACARS, fuel predictions, nearest airports, only two destinations with ILS but no approach lights, all other destinations with NDB only approaches to 400'agl, needed homemade timing device to configure before reaching minima, no VASI or approach lights, no piano keys or 1000" markings only an unlit "landing T", whatever that meant. ATC virtually non existent, constant frequency jammed in Mandarin or Cantonese, sometimes they just wouldn't answer at all, near misses, had a few we saw but who knows in that lousy weather. No roaming if we needed to contact the company, had to be a phone patch through HF, took forever. Best part was inbound seeing the lights on the border with HKG, could see them from 100 miles out on a good night, only viable alternate was goo-gan-zoo and they would only accept 3 or 4 diverting aircraft.

By the mid 90's we had all the good stuff and a multitude of new airports replacing the old Nanjing, Hangzhou, Chengdu, Pudong, later Goo-gan-zoo and numerous upgraded ones like Kunming and Xiamen. An absolute piece of cake by comparison although still unique and ATC remained a problem.

Out of interest I also did a check and typically 160 sectors in and out of the PRC was typical in around 1990 and how we looked forward to a Japan, Thailand or Nepal trip. In those days management guys did their fair share and didn't pick the eyes out of the roster.

[mngmt mole]

Can only respect that post...

[Oasis]

jjmclure

it was rather the other way around, calling cx inept in China basically.

[Typhseas2021]

I like how everyone has forgotten about the 103 CX pilots that got made redundant last October, some being locals and others on work visas. Why isn't there any talk about these guys who have been shifted by all these ex KA guys?

[Rie]

They were the fresh pilots. No time in the company and everyone is trying to save their own behind.

[doublelift]

They have more time with the company than those ex KA guys. I do think the local redundant SO should be rehired before any Ex KA

[Cortisol Depleted]

What did the regulator and insurance company say about percentage of pilots and hours on type when setting-up a new fleet (albeit CCQable)?

[Stone Temple Pilot]

doublelift

Makes sense that these non-resident one-stripers, laid off while on probation (?) should operate the many KA airbuses to all the KA destinations ahead of 20+ years senior guys who have clearly not contributed to the company at all in comparison.

[RAT Management]

They should all fight it out, MMA style. Winners get seats. Losers become cabin crew.

[swh]

Stone Temple Pilot

They had PR, not on probation. Ask around where the handful of KA guys ended up on the CX seniority list, and rethink your comment who was senior.

Mandatory requirements were
"A Hong Kong Permanent resident
Graduated from secondary school with good passes in English language, Mathematics or Science; a degree in any discipline will also be considered provided you meet the secondary school criteria.
Physically fit and qualified for a Civil Aviation Department (HKCAD) Class 1 Medical Certificate
Able to meet our flight deck reach requirements
Achieve ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization) English Language Proficiency level 4 or above
Aged 18 years or above"

Pre-COVID more than 110 airlines competed into HKIA which makes it one of the most competitive airports in the world, have you ever stopped to think why every gate in HKIA is generic ? This notion of a "KA destination" has been incorrectly thrown around most if not all of the destinations served by KA were already on the CX licence, almost all of the destinations were approved to multiple HKG carriers. Airlines operate where they generate the greatest return on investment, KA had multiple ports on there licence for 20 plus years which have never seen a commercial airline service with HKG for example Meixian, Qiqihar, Pune, Bishkek. There is no requirement in HKG to operate a particular route for it to be on the licence, the commercial viability is another matter. The Hong Kong Express licence has almost double the destinations as KA had.

[Memorylapse]

The CX Skygods swinging their weenies around and banging their fists, while their London base is about to close. What a sad, sad bunch you are.

The last bit of mongrels fighting for the scraps.

[Gnadenburg]

Oasis

Think your clowns started up about post #7. Stating their mates in check and training would fail ex-KA pilots. Then, soon after, the odd reference to KA pilots being skygods which usually fits the boot of legacy pilots. But anyways. More often than not, here on FH, its trans-generational abuse, with CX pilots labelling their colleagues as inept. You've been toxic for a long time. Now delusional too. Still banging on about seniority. I wouldn't be surprised if someone raises a previous scope clause right for CX pilots.

Personally, wish you all well. My best advice would be for you to realise how low you have gone. It's your only hope ( if CX survives ).

[Oasis]

I’m really sorry you feel that way, from my perspective it seemed like Cx pilots were called inept.
I have nothing but respect for dragon pilots.

[Dingleberry Handpump]

Could be lower, could be out of a job.

[Stone Temple Pilot]

swh - you miss my point completely.

doublelift is talking about the small percentage of laid off - very junior - CX pilots having "more time with the company than those ex KA guys".

Through my ironic comment, I meant to be saying that the 20+ year senior KA guys have contributed far more to the company and shown decades of loyalty. To hint otherwise is a slap in the face to your ex-colleagues (anyway, at least I thought we were ex-colleagues, sharing the same crew room, same "hub", "moving beyond" together, same dream, same team, no?).
Point being that KA pilots were always told we were part of the team, part of the company - until all of a sudden we obviously weren't.

Your mentioning about the various destinations, all that I'm very well aware of, serves no point either.
Fact was that these KA routes were lining Cathay's pockets, we were part of the company and we were not in competition...hence my mentioning of KA destinations, all of which are conveniently taken over by CX together with all the aircraft, to be flown by CX own (junior) crew.

What CX seniority list by the way?
This is not about where you end up on a non-existing seniority list, but about the time you have given Cathay and the rewards you reap as a result of your long lasting loyalty.

[deja vu]

Hard to sympathise with a bunch of miserable newbies trying to get the HKID to ban their colleagues, what a low act, why would we be surprised though.

[Typhseas2021]

I know many people who are part of that 103 group, and I can tell you that those guys having gone through Adelaide, left their families or had brought their families to HKG and have been cut like that followed by being shifted by people from the outside cx.. is pretty harsh, so if you can't be somewhat empathetic to that then I don't know what will.

[swh]

STP

The Cathay Pacific Group had four airlines, Hong Kong Express Airways Limited (UO), AHK Air Hong Kong Limited (LD), Hong Kong Dragon Airlines Limited (KA), and Cathay Pacific Airways Limited (CX). KA pilots were not employed by CX, they were employed by KA, the same way UO pilots are employed by UO not CX. The various pilots across bases that have been let go, and the pilots made redundant were employed by CX. KA was a valued part of the group, and their employees earned the mutual respect of other employees in the group, it would however be a misrepresentation to suggest that a KA employee was a CX employee, or a UO employee is a CX employee.

The best analogy I can give you is IAG group (Air Lingus, British Airways, Iberia, Level, and Vueling), IAG closed down OpenSkies their airline based out of Paris last year due COVID. BA also made many pilots redundant due COVID. The argument you are putting forward is like saying the pilots that were out of job when Openskies closed down that have the right to work in the UK should be employed by BA because they were part of the IAG group. Not only should they be employed by BA, they should be employed before the pilots BA made redundant were rehired because they are older.

[KABOY]

So we can say that ASL and the original AHK with the classics was the same model, but it was a misrepresentation to think they were CX pilots? But strangely they joined the CX seniority?

Justifying why you have a job over someone else is subjective, company boards will work an outcome anyway they want. CoS18 seems to help support their cause now segregating fleet, regardless of company…

Do we need to raise the base issue, same company but wrong location…

Long bow to draw my friend..

[swh]

It is not the same, look at the front page of your licence, it will say Hong Kong Dragon Airlines Limited, ASL, VETA, US Basing, Canadian Basing, EU basing, UK Basing, Australian basing etc will say Cathay Pacific Airways Limited.

Ask your colleagues that are now with Air Hong Kong, the front page of their licence will say AHK Air Hong Kong Limited .

[mngmt mole]

Colleagues. Can you all please understand that none of this matters anymore? The "Company" has instituted the "Armageddon" option regarding ALL the companies under their banner. CX will now be nothing more than a group of companies with an itinerant workforce, working for minimal pay and benefits...and they are quite happy to see turnover at a manageable rate. The days of CX being the "best" job in aviation are long gone...and will never return. The only question for each individual is whether or not they will accept that situation personally or find a real job in their own country. There is no other option available.

[852pilot]

Good post!

I dun know why people still believe they own the airline after signing COS18. Seniority literally doesn’t exist anymore and the company can do whatever it sees fit.

Again, everyone just an ERN and nobody here has any say at all.

[Gnadenburg]

Thanks Oasis

They were not feelings btw. Observations in fact.

Good luck.


Dingleberry Handpump

I'm not sure about that. I know CX guys who claim they are eating into their savings to stay and are miserable with Hong Kong. Some of them leaving. Some of them staying with hope.

I know it would be very tough for many. Especially younger guys. However, it will pick up gain and so many of my friends and former colleagues have no interest in returning to Hong Kong. Amazingly, many have absolutely no interest in returning to flying. They have made enough money that makes it impossible to put up with what's going on now to be employed as a pilot in Hong Kong.

So you would assume eventually, jobs will return for those willing.

[Stone Temple Pilot]

swh

I respect your kind words, and likewise - my greatest respect to CX pilots.
However, I don't believe I have ever suggested a KA employee to be a CX employee.
Instead, a KA employee was a Cathay employee, in the sense that we had the same wonderful "hub", safety department, personel, aircrew management, crew room etc - as has been suggested in my previous posts.
We were told we were part of the team.....except when we weren't.


The best analogy I can give you is IAG group (Air Lingus, British Airways, Iberia, Level, and Vueling), IAG closed down OpenSkies their airline based out of Paris last year due COVID. BA also made many pilots redundant due COVID. The argument you are putting forward is like saying the pilots that were out of job when Openskies closed down that have the right to work in the UK should be employed by BA because they were part of the IAG group. Not only should they be employed by BA, they should be employed before the pilots BA made redundant were rehired because they are older


Not a good analogy, I'm afraid.
I've been working myself in a few other airline groups previously.
Albeit with proper jurisdiction for employees and company mergers - AND with unions with enough foresight to have scape clauses and common seniority lists across the group.
So I know the differences and similarities.

Back to your analogy: OpenSkies was taken over by Level. "On 28 November 2017, IAG announced that its low-cost airline brand Level (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_(airline_brand)) would launch flights in July 2018 from Paris Orly Airport (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orly_Airport), which would be operated by staff that were currently employed by OpenSkies and using the airline's air operator's certificate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_operator%27s_certificate). In preparation for the change, OpenSkies' IATA code was changed from EC to LV in May 2018. The OpenSkies brand ceased to operate on 2 September 2018, after which all its staff began to operate Level flights."

FlightGlobal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FlightGlobal) stated that the retirement of the last OpenSkies branded aircraft "marked the end of the OpenSkies brand, from a public-facing perspective." OpenSkies began operating as Level France, with the same employees since operating under a new brand, with flight crew retrained to fly Airbus aircraft."

(My emphasis in bold)

So following your analogy, with CX taking over the KA aircraft and routes, the KA staff should have been taken on to continue the flights on the CX AOC and Cathay Pacific brand if we were to follow precedence in (European) history and your analogy.
Of course, I have to say, Europe has proper employment laws governing such scenarios of company take-overs. Hong Kong has, well, Swire, CAD and the government. Enough said.

Ok, so OpenSkies formally operated under Level, which actually entered insolvency during COVID.
Again, a very different scenario to KA/CX. Cathay Dragon was never even close to being insolvent. Quite the contrary.
The analogy stops there once more.

Hypothetically, yes ok, let's say OpenSkies, not being integrated with Level, but shut down and taken over by BA - all routes and aircraft transferred within the IAG group to BA.
Would you not think that Europe had proper laws in place, in order to let the OpenSkies crew operate these aircraft ahead of new-joining BA crew as it is a company take-over?

If the routes, the operation, the aircraft of OpenSkies/Level (whatever you call it this week) would be completely gone as a result of COVID and insolvency, yes, fair enough - a parent company could take over and start up an operation under their own brand at a much later time.
But CX is currently swinging (ex-KA repainted?) 330s and soon A321NEOs left, right and center to beautiful places such as WUH, XMN and CTU and has been doing it for a while along with BLR, CCU, KHH, HAN and KTM.
Similarly, if IAG decided to call it quits on OpenSkies, take their aircraft and continue the operation out of ORY to JFK/EWR as BA, I'm pretty sure that the crew would follow the aircraft under these circumstances.
I am not talking about an OpenSkies operation going wrong, their airframes being sold and their crew then demanding a LHR base on the BA seniority list on a completely different operation on completely different aircraft and completely different routes - that would be wrong (unless of course there was a joint seniority clause in place...but alas, seniority was signed away from in Hong Kong anyway).

[swh]

STP

“a KA employee was a Cathay employee”

A KA employee was a KA employee, with KA being part of the Cathay Group.

“we had the same wonderful "hub", safety department, personel, aircrew management, crew room etc”

CX/KA/LD/UO shared group items, like Group Safety and Group assets like buildings and aircraft, KA had their own flight ops management and own aircrew management. The livery painted on the side of an aircraft had no relationship to ownership. When the Group took over KA, KA assets became Group assets, many leases were renegotiated, many KA leased aircraft left, many CX aircraft changed their livery.

“So following your analogy, with CX taking over the KA aircraft and routes, the KA staff should have been taken on to continue the flights on the CX AOC and Cathay Pacific brand if we were to follow precedence in (European) history and your analogy.”

“Ok, so OpenSkies formally operated under Level, which actually entered insolvency during COVID.”

LEVEL France continued to operate under the OpenSkies AOC which was setup by BA however was marketed as LEVEL, just like Cathay Dragon continued to operate under the KA AOC with a change of marketing. LEVEL Europe the Austrian AOC went insolvent, the Spanish LEVEL AOC is still operating (https://www.flylevel.com/). These were all part of the IAG group, however staff in one part of the IAG Group had no expectation or obligation to be redeployed elsewhere in the Group.

“But CX is currently swinging (ex-KA repainted?) 330s and soon A321NEOs left, right and center to beautiful places such as WUH, XMN and CTU and has been doing it for a while along with BLR, CCU, KHH, HAN and KTM.”

All KA operated flights also carried CX flight numbers, eg KA311 to Busan also carried the CX5311 flight number. CX was already approved, and operated those routes, it didn’t need to do that in aircraft painted in CX livery. This was no big secret, both flight numbers were on the monitors at HKIA, you would have walked past this millions of times without a second thought.

Sit back and think about how KA and UO would have been compared to justify the purchase of UO instead of expanding KA and what UO brought to the Group. UO has approvals do everything KA could do, plus more, at less than half of the KA cost base. Unlike KA, they were already operating NEOs.[


KA never operated or owned the A321NEOs, they were ordered by the Group (https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2017/09/cathay-pacific-finalises-order-for-32-a321neo-aircraft.html), the Group had already announced that half of the A321NEO order would going to UO well before KA was closed. That was a indication to me where the Group wanted to expand its operations well before KA was closed.

COVID may have been the accelerant, looking at how things have unfolded, it would appear to me that the closure of KA was part of the longer-term Group plan, I think KA lost its relevance to the Group when UO was purchased and the training ban finished.

[Stone Temple Pilot]

When I read your arguments swh, I can't help feeling like a teenager being lectured about life by teachers, bound by a certain idealism while being stuck in the past.
To me it almost sounds like you're defending your current employer...
I hope I'm wrong on both accounts.

For your various inputs above - I doubt that UO has "Hub" access and receives emails from some James Evans with "Dear colleague...", updates from Augustus or "Moves Beyond".
It may have changed, but to my knowledge Group Safety never involved UO.
UO is most certainly under a different roof, i.e. in KA house, ironically, and when doing their simulators and emergency training are completely away from Cathay.

I'm well aware of what an airline group entails.
My point was to justify that a KA employee is most certainly a Cathay employee, as being part of Cathay and being so integrated in every moment of the daily operation (except seniority) - and believe me, it was not something that I believe any KA employee was proud of or wanted.
I fully agree that a KA employee is employed by KA. I never disputed that.
And I never said a KA employee was a CX employee.

Codesharing has nothing to do with route rights. Codesharing is for passenger convenience, mileage accrual and for marketing purposes. Christ, even Finnair and American had codeshare on our flights to i.e. Phnom Penh.
That doesn't mean that AY or AA can start up flights to PNH tomorrow.
I'm well aware of both CX and KA's route rights.

However, it's all beside the point.
Point is that CX is now flying KA destinations with ex-KA aircraft.
But no KA staff, many of whom had operated these aircraft and routes for decades and called Hong Kong their homes, their children born here.
This is now all handed over on a silver platter to junior CX crew recently arrived from Oz or SA, who might just call HKG a stepping stone (especially on COS18/21).

Fact is, that a company take-over took place, with all assets - except staff - being taken over by the parent company.
So KA employees employed by KA and taken over by CX would under normal, civilised jurisdictions be transferred with the assets to the new purchaser, i.e. the parent company.

As you could see from my previous, this happened according to European labor legislations in IAG group when "OpenSkies began operating as Level France, with the same employees since operating under a new brand, with flight crew retrained to fly Airbus aircraft."

Doesn't matter if parts of Level is still operating.
If an airline is taken over, certain rules apply in the civilised World.
If an airline winds down or parts of it (even under a company organisation) goes bankrupt, that's a different story. Tough luck for the employees, even within a warm and friendly airline group.

Look also at how Silk Air was transferred to SQ.
Again, civilised World, 21st century, happy days.

You hit the nail on the head with your last few paragraphs and finally I can say that I wholeheartedly agree with you.
It was something that most, if not all, KA employees were well aware of years ago (so nothing new there ;-) )
I have heard however, that since the NEOs are now in-house with CX, senior management has wet dreams of keeping all the 32 NEOs for themselves now...how ironic.

I have also learned that the company name under which certain transferred KA pilots were employed under, was set up well ahead of COVID, proving exactly that this was a planned move ages ago as you suggest.
It doesn't make it more right or less disgusting though so let's stop pretending, shall we?

[Flying Clog]

Interesting posts.

Agreed, CX will be wetting themselves getting their hands on the NEOs and dumping the expensive pilots who were slated to fly them (Dragonair).

And no, they won't be having HK Express fly them. UO will fly clapped out 320s with even cheaper pilots then COS18 on full eco scumbag routes. That'll be fun.

The NEOs will be super efficient, new, and with business class so will do all the high end short routes.

The :mad:‘s in CX management will indeed be very excited, but they're about to get bitten in the arse with the huge amount of resignations and stress leave/victims on the productive 747 fleet.

The 777 and Bus pilots are falling over themselves and super keen to join the active fleets (777 to 747 conversions), as they've been parked on their bums and enjoying 18 months off on full pay. Other than the times they've had quickly approved unpaid leave to go home obviously.

Don't get me wrong - if I was on a dying fleet (777), I too would be keen and scrambling to get on the 747.

The retreads from the 777 seem to be smiling and having a jolly good time sitting in the midfield terminal waiting for hours for their bat flu results. But I suppose I would be too, if I'd been given a new lease of life.

It's a bit of a slap in the face when I get screwed on seniority, yet again, by those falling over themselves to try and help out and/or save their own skin. The 777 is dead, fair enough. And that's the price you pay for a seniority multi fleet system. Only problem is - Cathay no longer respects or acknowledges seniority.

The fun thing, and the sting in the tail for Cathay, is that there are such a high number of resignations, particularly on the 747 of course, that the :mad: is about to hit the fan, and we might finally have some leverage. If it weren't for the super keen 777 brigade. I guess we just have to show them how miserable it is and bring them on side.

The critical shortage, of course, will be on amongst the 747 trainer ranks. And that's where we need to give the Cathay :mad: management a poke in the eye.

Bring it on I say!

[Gnadenburg]

The pleasant thing about threads where CX pilots take a crack at you, is by thread's end they are attacking their own ( again ).

[CXDOG]

Here’s the funny thing about the 777 to 747 brigade. The question has already been asked by one of them if they will have priority to return to the 777 when things ‘normalize’. I mean it’s likely cos it’s a reduced training footprint to re-activate their rating (ie. cheaper) than a full conversion. So once again the 747 long haulers will get left on the shelf to rot.

[swh]

STP

“It may have changed, but to my knowledge Group Safety never involved UO.”

It does, and LD. Group safety oversees all Group activities, an accident in any subsidiary impacts the overall brand.

“UO is most certainly under a different roof, i.e. in KA house”

KA House is a Group asset, it ceased being a KA asset in Sept 2006. Hence the reason GBS is located there.

“Codesharing has nothing to do with route rights.”

It does, CX could not sell tickets on flights it didn’t have the right to, it has to have the approvals in place in order to do that. CX passengers on flights administered by KA held CX issued tickets, not KA tickets.

“That doesn't mean that AY or AA can start up flights to PNH tomorrow.”

They could, 5TH freedom right. Could they do that profitably with their own equipment is another question.

“Point is that CX is now flying KA destinations with ex-KA aircraft.”

KA didn’t own any aircraft since Sept 2006.

“Fact is, that a company take-over took place, with all assets - except staff - being taken over by the parent company.”

That happened on 28 September 2006.

“So KA employees employed by KA and taken over by CX would under normal, civilised jurisdictions be transferred with the assets to the new purchaser, i.e. the parent company.”

Not with airlines, AOCs require their own staff, manuals etc for the operation of their flights under that AOC.

“As you could see from my previous, this happened according to European labor legislations in IAG group when "OpenSkies began operating as Level France, with the same employees since operating under a new brand, with flight crew retrained to fly Airbus aircraft."

My point was the Openskies AOC never ceased operating, it just had different management and marketing. The staff employed by Openskies had no right, and IAG/BA/LEVEL had no obligation to redeploy them within IAG once OpenSkies (ie LEVEL France) was closed.

“Look also at how Silk Air was transferred to SQ.”

Silk Air was always part of SQ, they were originally the SQ ad hoc charter airline (Tradewinds) then developed into their regional carrier. It was setup as part of SQ from day 1, same with Scoot.

[swh]

FC

”And no, they won't be having HK Express fly them. UO will fly clapped out 320s with even cheaper pilots then COS18 on full eco scumbag routes. That'll be fun.”

UO has been operating NEOs since 2016 (B-LCL was the first).

[Hugo Peroni the IV]

Flying Clog,

Falling over themselves? Did you miss the reverse seniority draft that is going on?

[Stone Temple Pilot]

Wow swh, you have definitely convinced me now.

Cathay has done the right thing then, I'm sure they will win the "caring company" price this year again.
I must have been wrong all along...It's almost like an act of charity the way KA was eliminated, for sure the fairest dissolution of an airline in the whole aviation history. Textbook stuff, 1st world!

PS - your "facts" above, are still missing the point completely and mostly incorrect in my book, but I can't be bothered to argue anymore. You obviously know so much more about aviation that you are lined up for a Betsy award or going straight for CX management positions.

PPS - I'd love to hear your arguments the sad day that UO takes over all CX widebodies on a COS27 and throw all the green-tail-employees under the bus, such that junior UO drivers can run the ANC freighters and LHR flights.
After all, it's a different group airline, CX was never part of UO.

Good luck with it all...

[Flying Clog]

Oops, missed that.

[chards]

hmm

Interesting post Clogs, Gnads is right it doesn’t take long for cx guys to start attacking their own. Cx needs guys from the 777 to got to the 747. A few volunteered but not enough so now people are being forced against their will. Not sure any of these guys are smiling at the testing centre? Let me guess, 3 years ago you were crying because it wasn’t fair you couldn’t go to the 777?

[swh]

STP

"I'd love to hear your arguments the sad day that UO takes over all CX widebodies on a COS27 and throw all the green-tail-employees under the bus, such that junior UO drivers can run the ANC freighters and LHR flights.
After all, it's a different group airline, CX was never part of UO."

That could happen, or the major shareholders being Air China and/or Qatar Airways could take over the Group, or they could close the passenger airlines CX/UO down and become a freight only by moving the freight business over to LD (as they have all the freighter ports and 747 on their AOC). None of that is in my control, and is not a reflection of the pilots working for CX or the other airlines.

Pilots are just mill workers, they don't own the mill, and have no control if the mill is closed or sold off.

[chards]

Yes but surely if that happened you’d get shirty with Air China pilots and tell them how hard it is to fly to JFK?

[Stone Temple Pilot]

swh

Not quite…in the real, civilised world even your mill workers have rights.

I can recommend this world over Hong Kong, you should try it swh, it’s a breath of fresh air, literally.

[Pickuptruck]

Living wise maybe, if you're going to be on the bones of your ass in aviation maybe better to be on the bones in your home country. But mill workers rights, are you serious? BA fired their most senior crew off the 744 totally against the employment contract with full govt approval. There are charter operators in the UK returning to flying with the small catch of the 45% paycut and new contract "sign or leave." For years some based crews have wandered CX city on overnights boasting about how they stick it to the company with lawsuits left right and centre to get what they want and here we are. The last 6 months have been the "we dare the company to close bases, we dare them to try, it'll cost them millions in compensation per pilot" and here we are. QF utterly destroyed their pilot union in court not that long ago, how anyone on an aussie base with CX could have looked at that and say we're completely different defies rational belief.

Mill workers rights indeed..........

[Cortisol Depleted]

Pickuptruck

BA didn’t “fire their most senior crew off the 744”.

The bottom 250 we’re made redundant from the master seniority list. Excluding A350 and B787 pilots. These redundant pilots have the right to return within three years. If things haven’t recovered I assume this period will be extended - BA was already struggling to recruit suitable candidates even before Brexit and the residency and licence implications.

The 744 was closed down. The annual bid came out around then. The senior went to where there were vacancies. The others were put in a pool awaiting a seat. The people in the Community Retention Scheme pool are on 1/3 to 2/3 % pay, funded by all the other pilots taking a pay cut. The cost to the company was net 0.

The discussion about allowing A350/B787 pilots who were on Day 1 of ground school having not even got to the sim to stay while working B744/B777/A320 pilots on line for a year got binned is on another forum.

[Busbuoy]

Thanks Cort Dep,
Nice to see misinformation get promptly straightened out.

[Stone Temple Pilot]

Pickuptruck

…and none of it related to rights with respect to a company closure or take-over.

[Pickuptruck]

I got my info from a 744 trainer at BA who didn’t have the rosy rainbows and unicorns outcome you speak so highly of. STP there are none so blind as those who refuse to see, go look at the losing battles between pretty much any pilot group and associated airline in Australia or Europe, There are zero rights under the COVID distorted business view and legal system. If you want to see yourself as infinitely better than the average QF pilot, you go right ahead. Nothing that CX has done on any base this year should surprise anyone.

[Cortisol Depleted]

Re: rainbows and unicorns - pretty easy to catastrophise when your fleet is off to the graveyard and you’re on the BALPA forum, (or indeed on here) all the time trying to get any semblance of information. The only senior ones that left were those that took VR.

BA wanted to bin the Jumbo Pilots as that was the cleanest legal outcome - BALPA engineered the CRS pool.

The most efficient and cost-effective way for CX to have ‘right sized’ (as far as pilots were concerned at least, as it’s not always all about us) would have been to merge the KA pilots into CX then get the whole lot on COS18 then work out from there who was needed on which fleet with minimal training cost. Stick the surplus on unpaid leave awaiting the sunlit uplands of the third runway with slots to fly and the end of Covid.

If immigration and visas had been a factor from the outset things would have probably worked out a little differently. But they weren’t and didn’t.

Going back to rainbows and unicorns I doubt that in 12 months from now there will be any unemployed HK Licence holders with residency.