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Foghorn Leghorn
30th Jun 2021, 21:50
A very interesting development on the Red Air scene:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/theaviationist.com/2021/06/30/dutch-f-16s-draken/amp/

Compass Call
30th Jun 2021, 22:29
Buying 12 F-16s.

DuckDodgers
1st Jul 2021, 06:23
Game changer with the M6.5 software tape giving an adversary equivalent to the USAF Block 50/52 with an established pathway to APG-83 installation. Some of the embedded software programmes are quite useful too for emulating other weapon system fly outs.

Foghorn Leghorn
1st Jul 2021, 06:34
Game changer with the M6.5 software tape giving an adversary equivalent to the USAF Block 50/52 with an established pathway to APG-83 installation. Some of the embedded software programmes are quite useful too for emulating other weapon system fly outs.

Indeed, DD. The F16s are MLU aircraft which are nice jets and as I understand it are significantly better than Top Aces F16s. Follow on purchase of up to 28 I believe is also offered.

DuckDodgers
1st Jul 2021, 08:40
Indeed, DD. The F16s are MLU aircraft which are nice jets and as I understand it are significantly better than Top Aces F16s. Follow on purchase of up to 28 I believe is also offered.

I guess it depends if you believe (Top Aces's) marketing or not? Either way, I suppose it gives ACC something to carefully consider before rushing to any decisions..........

ex-fast-jets
1st Jul 2021, 10:39
From my experience interfacing with the Cloggy F-16s in the 90's, I am surprised that they have any fatigue life left on them!

melmothtw
1st Jul 2021, 10:50
...as I understand it are significantly better than Top Aces F16s

Is that better before or after the Top Aces aircraft were fitted with an AESA and IRST?

Foghorn Leghorn
1st Jul 2021, 11:04
Is that better before or after the Top Aces aircraft were fitted with an AESA and IRST?

If they get those mods then yes, the Top Aces’ F16s will be a formidable platform. The if is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. Also, they’ve got to be contracted for those mods to be of any use. Equally, the baseline Draken F16s are better and will be able to accept the same mods.

one thing is for sure, it’s going to be an interesting next few months to see where this all goes.

Foghorn Leghorn
1st Jul 2021, 11:07
I guess it depends if you believe (Top Aces's) marketing or not? Either way, I suppose it gives ACC something to carefully consider before rushing to any decisions..........

I should think the F16s are a shrewd purchase and have come at the right time perhaps given what happened to one of their F1s at Nellis. Equally, it sets Draken up for the future with an F16 MLU jet and if they purchase the majority of those jets offered other companies won’t have them.

EESDL
4th Jul 2021, 16:47
USA Air just bought 40-odd Aussie F-18s for a similar market of increasing size

Foghorn Leghorn
4th Jul 2021, 17:05
USA Air just bought 40-odd Aussie F-18s for a similar market of increasing size

Its all gone very quiet on that front and I don’t think Air USA have been awarded a contract to operate them yet? My understanding is those Hornets are absolutely shagged out as well so their fatigue life will be an issue.

rattman
4th Jul 2021, 23:23
Its all gone very quiet on that front and I don’t think Air USA have been awarded a contract to operate them yet? My understanding is those Hornets are absolutely shagged out as well so their fatigue life will be an issue.


Yep I have been told the deal is dead, they won no contacts so they have no use for them.

Foghorn Leghorn
5th Jul 2021, 07:13
Yep I have been told the deal is dead, they won no contacts so they have no use for them.

Agreed, I’d heard that he never completed the purchase of the Hornets as he couldn’t generate a contract to operate them.

DuckDodgers
5th Jul 2021, 15:07
I think we need to be clear with our terminology. Air USA, just like Top Aces, did indeed win a contract and were given $3MM on award back in October 2019. What NEITHER of them have is a Task Order for an Operating Location. The key difference is that Don Kirlin has not been able to raise the capital to a) actually acquire the jets (hence why he's trying to sell Hawk mk67s for ludicrous money), and b) (finally) realised that he'd also need to include costs for a CBR on them. Top Aces have drawdown on the $100MM in raised capital from Clairvest CEP IV, CDPQ, and other investors which has funded the Netz acquisition and so far an AAMS and AESA upgrade to a single A-4N, the radar for which is believed to be the EL/M-2052 with a tiny 300 TRM antenna.

Foghorn Leghorn
6th Jul 2021, 11:24
I think we need to be clear with our terminology. Air USA, just like Top Aces, did indeed win a contract and were given $3MM on award back in October 2019. What NEITHER of them have is a Task Order for an Operating Location. The key difference is that Don Kirlin has not been able to raise the capital to a) actually acquire the jets (hence why he's trying to sell Hawk mk67s for ludicrous money), and b) (finally) realised that he'd also need to include costs for a CBR on them. Top Aces have drawdown on the $100MM in raised capital from Clairvest CEP IV, CDPQ, and other investors which has funded the Netz acquisition and so far an AAMS and AESA upgrade to a single A-4N, the radar for which is believed to be the EL/M-2052 with a tiny 300 TRM antenna.

Its interesting isn't it, DD, that there's much hype around the A-4N being fitted with the AESA, yet its a very limited press release and there's no meat on the bones of how many they're going to equip and what the expansion plan is. Similarly, Top Aces have gone quiet on what their expansion and operating plan is with the Netz. Kirlin, talked a good game, but I don't think it was ever going to work for him.

melmothtw
7th Jul 2021, 10:52
Similarly, Top Aces have gone quiet on what their expansion and operating plan is with the Netz..

Have they? They only announced the certification in May - how much news are you expecting?

DuckDodgers
7th Jul 2021, 13:46
Have they? They only announced the certification in May - how much news are you expecting?

The certification and 3 flights with nothing since. Now the important question and observation is this, did that flight include all the modifications and upgrades, I suspect not as there are many pointers to this in all the marketing material pushed thus far. As such it gained its AW certification against the baseline configuration it was received in from Golden Number Solutions (GNS) in Israel. So assume the modifications and upgrades are done as per their marketing (new radome (likely from GD) for AESA (likely from Elta) will be the most obvious) then the aircraft will have to be re-certified. Same if they have undertaken and achieved USAF TAA Military Flight Release. At this time, they have no task orders from the government to generate revenue with these aircraft. I suspect they will be eager to bid on the upcoming F-35C Chase Contract and look to partner with another provider to compete for Nellis as 4 becoming 12 aircraft don't cut it.

Foghorn Leghorn
9th Jul 2021, 07:54
The certification and 3 flights with nothing since. Now the important question and observation is this, did that flight include all the modifications and upgrades, I suspect not as there are many pointers to this in all the marketing material pushed thus far. As such it gained its AW certification against the baseline configuration it was received in from Golden Number Solutions (GNS) in Israel. So assume the modifications and upgrades are done as per their marketing (new radome (likely from GD) for AESA (likely from Elta) will be the most obvious) then the aircraft will have to be re-certified. Same if they have undertaken and achieved USAF TAA Military Flight Release. At this time, they have no task orders from the government to generate revenue with these aircraft. I suspect they will be eager to bid on the upcoming F-35C Chase Contract and look to partner with another provider to compete for Nellis as 4 becoming 12 aircraft don't cut it.

Exactly this, DD. As I said it’s all been very quiet since they arrived in country with not much in the way of fanfare. I rather suspect that Draken Int’l’s purchase of 12 F16 MLU aircraft has put a rather large dampner on Top Aces’ F16 party. Particularly when Draken already have a foothold at Nellis.

Mil-26Man
14th Jul 2021, 13:16
https://twitter.com/topaces/status/1415293702524784643?s=19

Foghorn Leghorn
14th Jul 2021, 16:26
https://twitter.com/topaces/status/1415293702524784643?s=19

The Draken purchase of 12 F-16 MLU standard jets kind of blows this Top Aces’ news out the water. Particularly when they have the option to purchase a follow on order of a further 28.

Top Aces, as I understand, are yet to have any contract confirmed to operate these aircraft under. Draken however may have stolen a march on others as they could likely swap out some of their aircraft such as the L-159/A-4 and replace those lines with F-16.

Mil-26Man
14th Jul 2021, 18:22
Draken has signed for the Dutch F-16s, but they won't be made available until late 2022/23 IIRC.

Top Aces is one of several companies participating in the USAF’s Combat Air Force (CAF) training contract, for which the F-16s will be used, no?

Foghorn Leghorn
14th Jul 2021, 20:19
Draken has signed for the Dutch F-16s, but they won't be made available until late 2022/23 IIRC.

Top Aces is one of several companies participating in the USAF’s Combat Air Force (CAF) training contract, for which the F-16s will be used, no?

No, the CAF CAS contracts have all been decided and awarded. There will be more to come, but there’s nothing forthcoming unless it’s a bespoke contract.

Mil-26Man
15th Jul 2021, 06:36
Top Aces was one of seven companies awarded the $6.4 billion CAF contract in 2019, along with Air USA, Airborne Tactical Advantage Company (ATAC), Blue Air Training, Coastal Defense, Draken International, and Tactical Air Support.

Why are you saying they're not involved?

Foghorn Leghorn
15th Jul 2021, 06:55
Top Aces was one of seven companies awarded the $6.4 billion CAF contract in 2019, along with Air USA, Airborne Tactical Advantage Company (ATAC), Blue Air Training, Coastal Defense, Draken International, and Tactical Air Support.

Why are you saying they're not involved?

I didn’t say they’re not involved; read your post and my post carefully. The CAF CAS contracts have been awarded. Therefore, it might well have to be a new contract awarded to enable the Top Aces’ F-16 to fly in which case it’ll be competed. Top Aces do not have a contract for F-16 aggressor use.

melmothtw
15th Jul 2021, 08:20
Why would getting a contract for F-16 Aggressor use be a problem for Top Aces but not for Draken?

Foghorn Leghorn
15th Jul 2021, 09:02
Why would getting a contract for F-16 Aggressor use be a problem for Top Aces but not for Draken?

I never said it wouldn’t be a problem for Draken. I said they could alleviate some of their lines with F-16. I’m sure Top Aces could do the same, but the Draken operation out of Nellis is significantly large enough to soak up this alleviation/swapping out of aircraft for their F-16s. Further, as Draken support the Weapons School and the Flag exercises amongst others the F-16 would be a welcome addition.

Mil-26Man
22nd Jul 2021, 04:51
More F-16s arriving for Top Aces https://www.israeldefense.co.il/en/node/51000

DuckDodgers
25th Jul 2021, 11:24
Draken has signed for the Dutch F-16s, but they won't be made available until late 2022/23 IIRC. Top Aces is one of several companies participating in the USAF’s Combat Air Force (CAF) training contract, for which the F-16s will be used, no?

Need to differentiate between Contract Award, basically an approved vendors list, that allows companies to compete at the Task Order level for each of the operating locations. As Foghorn Leghorn has already stated, the current competed 6 Task Orders have been awarded (3 x ATAC, 2 x Draken, 1 x Tac Air). It will be interesting to see if any of the reaming 6 are competed in Fiscal 22. Late 22/23 is also the withdrawal date of the last aircraft, when does the FTU close, circa 5 months give or take?

M609
2nd Dec 2021, 17:43
The Norwegian Defence Material Agency stated today that they have sold 12 F-16 MLU aircraft to Draken Int.

They are pretty much identical to the Dutch jets.

Price is not stated.

DuckDodgers
3rd Dec 2021, 07:14
Found elsewhere on the web.......
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1474x986/screenshot_2021_06_30_at_16_11_33_b9dc02af49d7f0bc1d26845d61 3b20d05cd57f1f.jpg

melmothtw
14th Sep 2022, 07:58
Top Aces contracted to provide F-16-based training - https://twitter.com/SkiesMag/status/1569683761427632128