What's the loudest GA aeroplane out there?

[Mach1Muppet]

G'day again all,

Recently been very interested in Cessna 180/185 airframes with the two bladed prop, been mesmerised by how loud these things are!
Anyhow this opened up the question that I cant seem to find: what is the loudest GA aeroplane out there?


Thanks All!

Mach1

[atakacs]

You mean in the cockpit?

[RedwireBluewire]

Would have to be a Britten Norman Islander wouldn't it?

[Less Hair]

How about the "Paris Jet"?

https://youtu.be/rKDAC8N-mZQ

[aroa]

From the ground one of the noisiest piston jobs that I recall was the Pusher twin Angel.
Silence now reigns because they have all been crashed, 4 of 4. so an extinct species.
Very specific and noisy ‘signature’ and could be heard from tens of miles away, so you knew what was coming.
The one I witnessed crash at YMBA flew into the cornfield like a sailplane on final glide,... which for this a/c it was...silent after a noisy take off, so I reckon both engines had failed. RIP that crew.

Jets are different ...specifically designed to turn Avtur into decibels.
8 EE Lightnings in stream take off, ie 16 Olympus on afterburner, thundered like worlds end, the ground shook, yr body trembled like a leaf and it looked like God pulling a string of beads to heaven. Straight up until out of sight.
Brain boggling !

[Checkboard]

It’s the MU2

end of discussion.

[chimbu warrior]

8 EE Lightnings in stream take off, ie 16 Olympus on afterburner, thundered like worlds end

Lightnings are not really considered "GA aeroplanes".

My nominations would include Queenair or Piaggio 166 (not the Avanti), but as the OP states a 185 with a 2-blade prop definitely gets noticed.

[Capt Chambo]

Dornier DO 28. End of....

Pardon! What?

[runway16]

A Cirrus 22!

[Xeptu]

Beechcraft Queenair, would hafta be in the running

[Ascend Charlie]

Not an aeroplane, but a Huey can be heard 10 miles away.

[Squawk7700]

There's a few RV's getting around that are a little over the top noise-wise with their muffler configurations. Not a pretty sound. Would prefer the sound of 3 blades on a Continential in an SR22 or 210.

[PPRuNeUser0131]

I'm with Xeptu. I heard a Codd Air Queen Air starting its take off run at Archerfield from my home in St Johns Wood. That is about 7 miles (and with a temp inversion).

[megan]

a Huey can be heard 10 miles awayA sound that could cause fear, portend deliverance, salvation, life, or even perhaps a hot meal if you were lucky.

[TWOTBAGS]

Queenair...

About an hour after departure I got told by ATC that he thought I must have woke up everyone in Western Sydney when I departed YSBK at 3am on a saturday morning once.

[RENURPP]

On the ground I suspect the Turbo commander and/or most turbo props with Garrett’s. However they are pretty quiet once they get going.

The QueenAir or the Aero Commander with the GTSIO640’s (I think that’s correct) would have to be right up there. Mind you I haven’t seen one of them flying for a few years now.

[SIUYA]

RENURPP.......IGSO540's. At least, that's what was in the Queenair's, the AC680FLs. and the AC680F that I flew what seems like a million years ago in GA.

[geeup]

DC3 but not really GA.

[e2_c]

In the cockpit, definitely the Islander. It is said they actually use acoustic lift ;).

[zanthrus]

Anything fitted with Garrett’s.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Any Polikarpov (also not really GA)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij6ogScXKOQ

[Atlas Shrugged]

Would have to be a Britten Norman Islander wouldn't it?

Absofrigginlutely................ horrible, ghastly things....

[Stationair8]

1. Cessna C336/337.,
2. Cessna C205/6 with the two bladed prop,
3. Beechcraft Queenair,
4. Piaggio P166,
5. Twin Bonanza,
6. Aerocommander 560,
7. Cessna C310D with the augmentor overwing exhaust system.

[Beamr]

Interesting topic, and ran into this in search of noise levels: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/22945
Worth noting that these are estimated noise levels instead of measured noise levels, but the document is for take off noise with presented flap settings.
You'll find the list on document AC 36-3H Including Change1 (http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_36-3H_with_chg_1.pdf)

On top of the list is Concorde with 112dBA, and eg aforementioned DC-3 has 85dBA.
Cessna 185 goes with 66dBA (no mention of the prop). 150/152 is at 59dBA, and on the bottom of the list is AA-5B TIGER wtih 52dBA.
And out of sheer interest a few picks: twin comanche 70,6dBA. Navajo up to 74dBA.
The Paris is rated at 80,9dBA.

[207592]

Vulcan on take off when flying on a Permit?

[Rie]

A BN Islander when you forget the headset.

[134brat]

OK so they are all gone now but the Beech Starship would have to be a candidate. Or, in current times how about the GP180.

[Ascend Charlie]

Queenair...

About an hour after departure I got told by ATC that he thought I must have woke up everyone in Western Sydney when I departed YSBK at 3am on a saturday morning once.

Yeah, but only the voters in the Balmain Labor area are worth worrying about, Bags!

[treadigraph]

Queenair...

About an hour after departure I got told by ATC that he thought I must have woke up everyone in Western Sydney when I departed YSBK at 3am on a saturday morning once.
Think the Dornier 28D had the same engines or very similar - plus it was a very slow aeroplane. We used to get the occasional West German AF example returning from (old) South Wales to Germany routing over south London - you could hear them coming from miles away and probably 15 minutes later still hear them half way to Dover.

Noisiest thing round here now are the Spits at Biggin - I've yet to hear anyone complain!

The Cirrus is quite a noisy bugger too, not sure if it's the prop or what...

[zac21]

Lightnings are not really considered "GA aeroplanes".

My nominations would include Queenair or Piaggio 166 (not the Avanti), but as the OP states a 185 with a 2-blade prop definitely gets noticed.

A C185 with an IO-520 running at 2825 RPM [max 3 minutes] swinging an 88 inch 2 blade prop beats them all, trust me.

[effortless]

Antonov AN-2 anyone?

[tcasblue]

Harvard perhaps.

[TwoFiftyBelowTen]

The BAC-111 made a hell of a racket, but then, the VC-10 had four of those engines!

But as for GA, yes the BE65/BE80 was allowed to do night freight runs when other types were deemed too noisy!
What a joke!

[Pinky the pilot]

Would have to be a Britten Norman Islander wouldn't it?

For sending the Pilots deaf.....YES!!

[RENURPP]

RENURPP.......IGSO540's. At least, that's what was in the Queenair's, the AC680FLs. and the AC680F that I flew what seems like a million years ago in GA.
The AC680E had these - Model: GSO-480-B1A6. I flew the others you mentioned but they weren’t nearly as loud.
The 65-B80 had IGSO-540. There was another model QueenAir that had a flat 8 from memory (need to search the old log books) it wasn’t nearly as loud.

[treadigraph]

The BAC-111 made a hell of a racket, but then, the VC-10 had four of those engines!

1-11 had a pair of Speys, the VC-10 had four Conways. Noisy on the outside I'll grant you...:}

[Jn14:6]

Bellanca Viking has to be up there.

[pax britanica]

I will second Piaggio 166 , extremely noisy for its size and with pusher props too?. Obviously nothing can compete with military stuff or wonderful smokey ground shaking 60s jet liners. Opposite end of scale have to be lovely puttering old DH biplane engines , part of the sounds of an English summer

[Capt Fathom]

Generally anything equipped with augmentors (like most Queenairs) will be noisy. 12 exhaust pipes, no mufflers, feeding straight into the augmentor tubes! What a great sound!

[triadic]

The BAC-111 made a hell of a racket,

Parked on the ramp, the BAC-111 APU was louder than when operating...

[Teddy Robinson]

For GA aircraft .... The FR172 we used to operate attracted quite a bit of adverse comment regarding noise, the Cessna 337 has two of the same engines and props ... so logically that has to be pretty close to top of the list..

[aroa]

Lightning , not GA.! Is so too Genuinely Awesome.!! Well was.

Ditto with a 4 Vulcan scramble, again 16 Olympus.

[a330pilotcanada]

Sorry Guy's either the DHC-2 Beaver or DHC-3 Otter at 05:30 on a lake with inhabitants......

[kellykelpie]

Has to be the Conquest when it’s facing you! 🙀

[vegassun]

MU-2 no doubt

[volare_737]

It’s the MU2

end of discussion.

I definitely second that !!!!

[papa_sierra]

Ask the folk on Anglesey about noisy aircraft, I think they would be unanimous in the Texans.

[towrope]

Cessna C336/337 get my vote. Inside and out what a loud aircraft. Interesting and fun just for the config, but oh man your teeth will vibrate loose.

[Dominator2]

May have been until recently the Dominie T1 (HS125 200 Series). Two Vipers in close formation made a hell of a noise. In recent years we were theoretically banned from many European civilian airports. We were often asked for our Noise Certificate? The Dominie noise was never certified at any level apart from "Very Noisy"
We talked our way into many places such as Milan Linate and Paris Le Bourget but very rarely welcome back until their memory faded as to how many noise complaints we generated.
All that noise for just over 6000lbs of thrust!!!

[tdracer]

DC3 but not really GA.
That's not noise, that's music :ok:

[POBJOY]

The Cessna 337 was no covert creeper, but had double skin windows for the occupants.
The 300hp Islander was a close second, but EVERYONE knew when a 337 took off, however it was a fun machine that in Robertson STOL mode handled like a fighter and performed very well.

[pithblot]

A 185 with a two bladed prop certainly gets your attention.

tdracer, yes, the P&W music emanating from a DC3 is surely not noise!

[185skywagon]

A 185 with a 3 blade 86" isn't very quiet on a cold morning.

[cattletruck]

M1M what have you started :ok:

In my sheltered GA existence I found from a very far distance away the Navajos and Chieftains to be injurious to everyones ears during the start of their take-off roll.

Also found the whiney racket caused by the tail rotors of early model B407s and A109s to be totally unnecessary.

An engine backfire in a tired old PA28 that was about to fall apart around you was character building.

[BFSGrad]

Parked plenty of MU-2s but Paris Jet gets my vote.

[Captain Dart]

The meat-bombing Airvan that claws for altitude all weekend over my area before it spews out its organic lawn darts.

[rotorrookie]

The one that is begin complained about is always the loudest, true story, often it is a helicopter thou

[601]

About an hour after departure I got told by ATC that he thought I must have woke up everyone in Western Sydney when I departed YSBK at 3am on a saturday morning once.
Off 11 at Toowoomba in RUU or FWG at 06:00 got the whole city's attention.

Any Polikarpov
CAC Boomerang would would out scream anything.

[skytramp2800]

A-26 Invader. A pair of R-2800's, climb power, in a dive, low...and over!!! Yea baby!!!

[skytramp2800]

A song in the heavens! Funny thing, sitting in the back of a DC-3 in these old airline seats, legroom galore, reclined for sleep... those P&W's just burbling along, lulling you to dreamland!

[RichardJones]

I flew a private B707 for a time, a long time ago.. Does that count?

[FlightlessParrot]

Lightnings are not really considered "GA aeroplanes".


And, to the best of my knowledge and belief, were powered by Avons, not Olympus. Mind you, a mere four Olympus, without afterburner, in a Vulcan doing a demonstration take off at Farnborough remains a vivid memory from a very long time ago. It really did make your knees freeze, your back crack, and your liver quiver. But the Vulcan was even less of a GA aircraft, never doing joyflights.

[Capt Fathom]

Original post….What's the loudest GA aeroplane out there?

[witwiw]

I got told by ATC that he thought I must have woke up everyone in Western Sydney

Akin to an ATC response heard at YMMB many moons ago when an ex-Connellan Twin Bonanza reported "ready" for runway 22 - "the phone's off the hook, clear for takeoff"

They were sensitive neighbours way back in the 70's and quick to complain - and it hasn't stopped.

[pithblot]

......Jets are different ...specifically designed to turn Avtur into decibels.
8 EE Lightnings in stream take off, ie 16 Olympus on afterburner, thundered like worlds end, the ground shook, yr body trembled like a leaf and it looked like God pulling a string of beads to heaven. Straight up until out of sight.
Brain boggling !


Great description aroa....God pulling a string of beads to heaven.

And Lightnings were kinda GA for a while but not anymore. Thunder City (https://www.incredible-adventures.com/capetown2.html)

[cost neutral]

On the inside, would have to be the Nomad, Islander or Trislander

[AAKEE]

Would have to be a Britten Norman Islander wouldn't it?

Its most probable on the top five at least.
Did love the sound flying it and no shouting wife when one got home after a day in it. Yes, I could see her mouth moving but… :-)

[biscuit74]

How about the Cessna 'push me pull you', the Cessna Skymaster ? On approach with both props in fine pitch it was a real buzzsaw !

[Atlas Shrugged]

Original post….What's the loudest GA aeroplane out there?

What??..... can't hear ya..!

[Superfly Slick Dick]

Great question. Many years ago, I was on the western apron at Moorabbin Airport when a Mitsubishi MU2 taxied, parked a short while (with engines running) then taxied away. The noise was absolutely unbearable; you really couldn’t be out there without HAVING to cover your ears.

Coincidentally, check out this article on XF-84H ‘Thunderscreech’

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_XF-84H_Thunderscreech

It was an early (1950’s) turbo prop. The tips of the props exceeded the speed of sound AT IDLE! This was the loudest plane ever produced, and could be heard 40 kilometres away. A short read, but well worth it!

[countertorque]

The BAC-111 made a hell of a racket, but then, the VC-10 had four of those engines!

But as for GA, yes the BE65/BE80 was allowed to do night freight runs when other types were deemed too noisy!
What a joke!

BAC 1-11 = RR Spey and VC10 = RR Conway i.e. not the same engines at all.

[deja vu]

The BAC-111 made a hell of a racket, but then, the VC-10 had four of those engines!

But as for GA, yes the BE65/BE80 was allowed to do night freight runs when other types were deemed too noisy!
What a joke!
I recall around 40 years ago taxying an MU2 at Essendon about 1 am in the morning night after night to do a freight run to Sydney. During the taxi out about half the houses next to the boundary fence would light up. I learned pretty quickly to have all before T/O checks done before leaving the apron so no delay at the holding point.
Sydney off course had a curfew so only turbo props with hush power could operate like, F27s, MU2s and other noisy bug smashers. Still the same today.

[aroa]

FP ....kakapo?
I stand corrected... Avon engines.
At that same Farnborough was a 4 Vulcan scramble, that repeated the EE SOUND performance.
Is the plural for Olympus , Olympii ? Bloody earth shattering that’s for sure.

And how graceful was that huge delta when a Vulcan on solo show did a roll just after lift off !

[cattletruck]

you really couldn’t be out there without HAVING to cover your ears.

Often called the "MU-2 salute"

[WB627]

Just about GA how about the North American T-6 Texan/Harvard etc, but if that isn't GA enough for you try the de Havilland Canada DHC-2 Beaver. Its the supersonic prop tips what does it :E

[Pugilistic Animus]

GII never flew one but I have heard one close, even with ears in its loud!

[Checkboard]

Is the plural for Olympus , Olympii ?
That would be a Latin form of regular plural. As "Olympus" is a Greek word it would be something like "Olympodes", but in English the normal Olympuses would be considered correct. :)

[aroa]

Thank you Checkie. Tis important to use the correct word and spelling.

[treadigraph]

I believe the mighty Saturn V is mankind's loudest sustained noisy invention to date - not sure how it compares with the Thunderscreech but probably in some way less unbearable to those near Canaveral during launches.

Few years ago a ground running Griffon interacted with a ground running Merlin in such a way towards where I was standing 100yds away that moving was imperative - some sort of resonance focused the noise in that particular direction I guess. Both engines sound great normally but this was painful. Might have been the faux props fitted rather than the usual Dowty Rotols...

[evansb]

Broad category. General aviation (GA) represents all civilian "aircraft operation other than a commercial aircraft operation or an aerial work operation". Private jets, like John Travolta's Boeing 707, including ex-military jets are considered GA.

[Antsl]

The Piaggio P.180 Avanti ... that gets me out of the house looking!

[Capn Rex Havoc]

This was an interesting watch - so loud it made ground crew sick

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx2F9PZlCqY&t=645s

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Anything with a Garret. Cessna A37 Dragonfly, Any bloody Queenair owned by Codds. Just reading this brought back memories of the bellow coming from those things at takeoff power.

[olderairhead]

A BN Islander when you forget the headset.
You had headsets? Lucky baastard! :{

[Pinky the pilot]

Any bloody Queenair owned by Codds. Just reading this brought back memories of the bellow coming from those things at takeoff power.

Oh I dunno. I found that particular sound to be quite nice! Almost as good as a Titan at T/O power.:ok:

Loved the sound of a certain Queenair going overhead my Unit in YPLC back in the late 90's at 0 dark hundred! Flown by a certain SMS777.

[On eyre]

Oh I dunno. I found that particular sound to be quite nice! Almost as good as a Titan at T/O power.:ok:

Loved the sound of a certain Queenair going overhead my Unit in YPLC back in the late 90's at 0 dark hundred! Flown by a certain SMS777.

And Pinky their idea of fly neighbourly for the good citizens of North Shields was to give them a serve on the way in by landing on 01 and follow up half an hour later with a second dose by invariably departing on 19 at Port Lincoln.

[Pinky the pilot]

And Pinky their idea of fly neighbourly for the good citizens of North Shields was to give them a serve on the way in by landing on 01 and follow up half an hour later with a second dose by invariably departing on 19 at Port Lincoln.


I remember that! :DNever used to bother me either!

[Checkboard]

all civilian "aircraft operation other than a commercial aircraft operation

So flying Instruction or Charter isn't GA??

[zanthrus]

I wonder if a Saturn V going to the Moon would be considered a very expensive GA Charter? Certainly not RPT! NASA is a civilian agency. 🤣

[evansb]

Correct. Flying instruction is "Commercial Aviation". Once the pupil pilot is licensed and fly's by him/her/itself, it is categorised as GA or "Private Aviation" Funny that. Not that any authority is itemising that..oh yes, in India it is definitely itemised. In Germany, it is classified as "Sport Aviation", (crude translation). "Sport Aviation" is of course taxed accordingly..

[evansb]

Perception is everything!. The Piaggio is not particularly loud, but the sound may be irritating. You may find your neighbour's lawnmower "loud" but it may not be loud on the decibel scale. Frequency and pitch (low-high) of the sound is a perceptual determinant . The sound may be just an annoyance to the human ear, particularly at a certain place and time. Loudness is pure decibels. A Rolls-Royce Dart engine operating at a certain RPM with a certain propeller combination is "loud". Damaging to the human ear actually. Three P&W JT8D turbojets on a corporate B727-100 at MTO on a -30C morning is loud. Been there..I luv it! May not have been GA..

[SASless]

Hands down.....this old girl on full afterburners wins the noise making contest!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnntQv9wN9A

[Maisk Rotum]

4 IO540s turning three blade props. 24 cylinders, 8 exhaust augmentors, otherwise known as loudeners

[jonkster]

Correct. Flying instruction is "Commercial Aviation". Once the pupil pilot is licensed and fly's by him/her/itself, it is categorised as GA or "Private Aviation" Funny that. Not that any authority is itemising that..oh yes, in India it is definitely itemised. In Germany, it is classified as "Sport Aviation", (crude translation). "Sport Aviation" is of course taxed accordingly..

In Australia General Aviation is defined as non-scheduled flying so GA includes commercial ops like charter, survey, air-ambulance, rescue, firefighting. instruction etc. Other parts of the world may differ.

[Dookie on Drums]

This was an interesting watch - so loud it made ground crew sick

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx2F9PZlCqY&t=645s
What a useless video. No sound at all from the aircraft in question.

[deja vu]

Before Garretts there were Astazous, fitted to all sorts, Skyvan. Jetstream, Mu2's, etc.
Apparently decibels to hp ratio a clear winner

[Cedrik]

Oh I dunno. I found that particular sound to be quite nice! Almost as good as a Titan at T/O power.:ok:
Titan at T/O power had a lovely mellow note,
unlike the augmenter tubes on a Queen-Air which can only be described as a bellow.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Of course the mighty Bou was no quiet puppy-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBVH0udlpBc

[zlin77]

Remember reading in Business & Commercial Aviation over 30 years ago that the flyover noise level of a Queenair at 5,000' was louder than a 707 at the same altitude..! Was loud enough on the inside as my deteriorating hearing is proof of after 3 years in the NSW Air Ambulance, many noise complaints with our back of the clock departures from Mascot, people complaining of "noisy military aircraft"!

[Ixixly]

The Islander is the worst and if you think otherwise then clearly you've had your brains rattled around more than an Islander driver has :}

[treadigraph]

Just been reminded how noisy the Dauphin is when it's heading towards you - you can hear it for miles but once past it's quiet... could hear that one from at least 15 miles away...

Edit: didn't hear him for quite so long on his return, but there was a hill in the way! Conversely, the delightful DH-90 Dragonfly that followed him out of Biggin Hill and passed about a mile south of me wasn't nearly noisy enough - I love the sound of Gipsy Majors in the morning!

[PaulH1]

Except the Lightning had Avon engines. Just as noisy though!

[Mach E Avelli]

I agree that the Bongo is by far the worst GA transport for its occupants. Enough to make one’s ears bleed. Anything with Garretts is only as good as the internal soundproofing and engine location relative to the cockpit, which varies between airframe types - eg Conquest not too bad on the inside, but still noisy enough that too much exposure could damage hearing on the ramp.
Not GA, but anything with RR Darts made quite a nasty racket, too.

[Duck Pilot]

HS125-600 with RR Vipers pumped out a few decibels.

[redsnail]

Whereas the later model HS125's, it was the APU that was effing noisy!

[deja vu]

Akin to an ATC response heard at YMMB many moons ago when an ex-Connellan Twin Bonanza reported "ready" for runway 22 - "the phone's off the hook, clear for takeoff"

They were sensitive neighbours way back in the 70's and quick to complain - and it hasn't stopped.
Yeah I remember those and they didn't climb away real fast from over the houses. The outfit was run by a guy called Smith from Tassie I think and he had a young Italian pilot working for him as well.

[zac21]

[There was another model QueenAir that had a flat 8 from memory (need to search the old log books]

" Excallibur "

[HarleyD2]

Any Cessna 188 with the prop ‘tweaked’ especially on a calm cool morning with an inversion, full can and an ROC of less than 100 fpm. Ground level being service ceiling when the pilot is ‘hungry’ and the cockies are desperate.

[Less Hair]

Avanti for props.

[Capt Fathom]

Avanti for props.

There used to be one in Australia…. but I haven’t heard it for a while! :}

[Less Hair]

https://youtu.be/0dNKbZclamo

[roundsounds]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1100x733/6c71c7d8_4c12_4fe7_8332_aa58e7d05bf1_502dd24f707a76ef7d90291 352d127f4ee2dc60c.jpeg
I used to fly this machine, a Lockheed 10A. It was pretty loud and would attract the odd phone call complaint to ATC.

[421dog]

Early Lears (23-25). Shook the bloody ground like a junior F-4 in burner.
I fly a bunch of loud stuff, but bow to Uncle Bill’s auditory mastery...

[601]

Why did the Dart make more noise in the Hawker Siddeley H.S. 748 (RAAF) that in the F27?
The bl00dy 748 would wake up all of Amberley at 2am.

[RENURPP]

The MU2, Turbo Comm and possible the Conquest are noisy on the ground.
The C185 and Queenlier noisy on take off and airborne.

[Switchbait]

I’ll second LearJet, the original and add JetCommander to the list for the same CJ6 noise. Lovely 👌🏼

[runway16]

A Cirrus SR-22.

[bugged on the right]

601, the 748s of 34 Sqn were fitted with Rover APUs which were not only loud but broke all physics laws by getting louder as you got further away. Don't know about the SAN 748s That may account for the loss of sleep.

[Clare Prop]

Trislander

[Pinky the pilot]

Trislander

Oh, I dunno about that one Clare.:hmm:


Admittedly I have only a grand total of 3 hours ICUS on type. (P2-DNN langtaimbak:sad: with Luk V as checkie)

[oicur12.again]

On the ground I suspect the Turbo commander and/or most turbo props with Garrett’s. However they are pretty quiet once they get going.

The QueenAir or the Aero Commander with the GTSIO640’s (I think that’s correct) would have to be right up there. Mind you I haven’t seen one of them flying for a few years now.

Concur with the comments regarding the Commander.

I remember living south of Essendon airport in the late eighties and being woken up by the southbound freighters. Often the Ipec DC9 and the Grand Commander from HBA would launch several minutes apart. The 9 would make an awful noise for about 20 seconds as it sped past but the Grand would be overhead for what seemed like hours, climbing out at 80 knots into a stiff southerly!!! Almost as noisy as the 9 but it lasted for ever.

[tail wheel]

@e2_c (https://www.pprune.org/members/90310-e2_c)

Argument over - the Britten Norman BN2-XL with acoustic lift has been proven the World's loudest GA aircraft. I am fortunate to have a copy of the demonstration flight, written by a prominent aviation reporter (RIP Paul):

Britten-Norman BN2-XL

By a well-known ‘Flight’ magazine Editor.

Undaunted by technical realities, the design team at Pilatus Britten - Norman has announced plans for the BN2-XL, promising more noise, reduced payload, a lower cruise speed, and increased pilot workload.

We spoke to Mr. Fred Gribble, former British Rail boilermaker, and now Chief Project Engineer. Fred was responsible for developing many original and creative design flaws in the service of his former employer, and will be incorporating these in the new BN2-XL technology under a licensing agreement. Fred reassured BN-2 pilots, however, that all fundamental design flaws of the original model had been retained. Further good news is that the XL version is available as a retrofit.

Among the new measures is that of locking the ailerons in the central position, following airborne and simulator tests which showed that whilst pilots of average strength were able to achieve up to 30 degrees of control wheel deflection, this produced no appreciable variation in the net flight of the aircraft. Thus the removal of costly and unnecessary linkages has been possible, and the rudder has been nominated as the primary directional control. In keeping with this new philosophy, but to retain commonality for crews’ transitioning to the XL, additional resistance to foot pressure has been built in to the rudder pedals to prevent over-controlling in gusty conditions (defined as those in which wind velocity exceeds 3 knots).

An outstanding feature of Islander technology has always been the adaptation of the O-540 engine which, when mounted in any other aircraft in the free world (except the Trislander) is known for its low vibration levels. The Islander adaptations cause it to shake and batter the airframe, gradually crystallise the main spar, desynchronise the accompanying engine, and simulate the sound of fifty skeletons fornicating in an aluminium dustbin. PBN will not disclose the technology they applied in preserving this effect in the XL but Mr. Gribble assures us it will be perpetrated in later models and sees it as a strong selling point. "After all, the Concorde makes a lot of noise" he said, "and look how fast that goes."

However design documents clandestinely recovered from the PBN shredder have solved a question that has puzzled aerodynamicists and pilots for many years, disclosing that it is actually noise which causes the BN2 to fly. The vibration set up by the engines, and amplified by the airframe, in turn causes the air molecules above the wing to oscillate at atomic frequency, reducing their density and creating lift. This can be demonstrated by sudden closure of the throttles, which causes the aircraft to fall from the sky. As a result, lift is proportional to noise, rather than speed, explaining amongst other things the aircraft's remarkable takeoff performance.

In the driver's cab (as Gribble describes it) ergonomic measures will ensure that long-term PBN pilots' deafness does not cause in-flight dozing. Orthopaedic surgeons have designed a cockpit layout and seat to maximise backache, en-route insomnia, chronic irritability, and terminal (post-flight) lethargy. Redesigned "bullworker" elastic aileron cables, now disconnected from the control surfaces, increase pilot workload and fitness. Special noise retention cabin lining is an innovation on the XL, and it is hoped in later models to develop cabin noise to a level which will enable pilots to relate ear-pain directly to engine power, eliminating the need for engine instruments altogether.

We were offered an opportunity to fly the XL at Britten-Norman's development facility, adjacent to the British Rail tearooms at Little Chortling. (The flight was originally to have been conducted at the Pilatus plant but aircraft of BN design are now prohibited from operating in Swiss airspace during avalanche season). For our mission profile, the XL was loaded with coal for a standard 100 N.M. trip with British Rail reserves, carrying one pilot and nine passengers to maximise discomfort. Passenger loading is unchanged, the normal under-wing protrusions inflicting serious lacerations on 71% of boarding passengers, and there was the usual confusion in selecting a door appropriate to the allocated seat. The facility for the clothing of embarking passengers to remove oil slicks from engine cowls during loading has been thoughtfully retained.

Start-up is standard, and taxiing, as in the BN2 is accomplished by brute force. Takeoff calculations called for a 250-decibel power setting, and the rotation force for the (neutral) C of G was calculated at 180 ft/lbs. of backpressure.

Initial warning of an engine failure during takeoff is provided by a reduction in vibration of the flight instrument panel. Complete seizure of one engine is indicated by the momentary illusion that the engines have suddenly and inexplicably become synchronised. Otherwise, identification of the failed engine is achieved by comparing the vibration levels of the windows on either side of the cabin. (Relative passenger pallor has been found to be an unreliable guide on many BN2 routes because of ethnic consideration).

Shortly after takeoff the XL's chief test pilot, Capt. Mike "Muscles" Mulligan demonstrated the extent to which modern aeronautical design has left the BN2 untouched; he simulated pilot incapacitation by slumping forward onto the control column, simultaneously applying full right rudder and bleeding from the ears. The XL, like its predecessor, demonstrated total control rigidity and continued undisturbed. Power was then reduced to 249 decibels for cruise, and we carried out some comparisons of actual flight performance with graph predictions. At 5000 ft and ISA, we achieved a vibration amplitude of 500 CPS and 240 decibels, for a fuel flow of 210 lb/hr, making the BN2-XL the most efficient converter of fuel to noise after the Titan rocket.

Exploring the Constant noise/Variable noise concepts, we found that in a VNE dive, vibration reached its design maximum at 1000 CPS, at which point the limiting factor is the emulsification of human tissue. The catatonic condition of long-term BN2 pilots is attributed to this syndrome, which commences in the cerebral cortex and spreads outwards. We asked Capt. Mulligan what he considered the outstanding features of the XL. He cupped his hand behind his ear and shouted "Whazzat?"

We returned to Britten-Norman convinced that the XL model retains the marque's most memorable features, whilst showing some significant and worthwhile regressions.
PBN are not, however, resting on their laurels. Plans are already advanced for the Trislander XL and noise tunnel testing has commenced. The basis of preliminary design and performance specifications is that lift increases as the square of the noise, and as the principle of acoustic lift is further developed, a later five-engined vertical take-off model is also a possibility."

All in all, a wonderful aeroplane.

[First_Principal]

@e2_c (https://www.pprune.org/members/90310-e2_c)
Argument over - the Britten Norman BN2-XL with acoustic lift has been proven the World's loudest GA aircraft. I am fortunate to have a copy of the demonstration flight, written by a prominent aviation reporter (RIP Paul):


Well done that writer, and thanks for posting! 🎧

[zlin77]

I recall reading many years ago in a U.S. aviation magazine that the fly-over noise of a Queen Air at 5,000 ft. exceeded that of a B707! When the N.S.W. Govt. used Queen Airs as the Air Ambulance there used to be many complaints from the general public regarding the noise, especially outside of Mascot's normal curfew hours, I remember one caller on talk-back radio complaining about the noisy "military aircraft" being allowed to operate!

[Dora-9]

The Queen Air didn't make noise - it made music!

[megan]

The Queen Air didn't make noise - it made music!Classical or Heavy Metal?

[Pinky the pilot]

Still remember a Queenair taking off from YPLC at 0 Dark Hundred on many occasions and the Flight path taking it just past my Unit at North Shields. T'was music indeed!!

Those were the days, SMS777, yes?:ok:

[tail wheel]

The Queen Air didn't make noise - it made music!

Music comes from big round piston engines, not flat piston engines! :}

If radials make music the Pratt & Whitney R-4360 Corn Con engine is an entire symphony orchestra:

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/873x655/corn_cob_engine_b3a42768eb37d9eafcc39eb453b2f4f9d347f9eb.jpg

[megan]

It's an old article, but herewith dedicated with affection for having a common love to tail wheel.

We gotta get rid of turbines, they are ruining aviation.

We need to go back to big round engines.

Anybody can start a turbine, you just need to move a switch from "OFF" to "START," and then remember to move it back to "ON" after a while. My PC is harder to start.

Cranking a round engine requires skill, finesse and style. On some planes, the pilots are not even allowed to do it.

Turbines start by whining for a while, and then give a small lady-like poot and start whining louder.

Round engines give a satisfying rattle-rattle, click-click BANG, more rattles, another BANG, a big macho fart or two, more clicks, a lot of smoke and finally a serious low pitched roar.

We like that. It's a guy thing. When you start a round engine, your mind is engaged and you can concentrate on the flight ahead. Starting a turbine is like flicking on a ceiling fan: Useful, but hardly exciting.

Turbines don't break often enough, leading to aircrew boredom, complacency and inattention. A round engine at speed looks and sounds like it's going to blow at any minute.

This helps concentrate the mind.

Turbines don't have enough control levers to keep a pilot's attention.

There's nothing to fiddle with during the flight.

Turbines smell like a Boy Scout camp full of Coleman lanterns. Round engines smell like God intended flying machines to smell.

I think I hear the nurse coming down the hall. I gotta go.

[Arm out the window]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDRR4JBoaNI

What an engineering marvel! That's a beast, all right.

[tail wheel]

What a magnificent 28 cylinder symphony of a thousand parts. :ok:

Modern aircraft rust away in a few short years; Round engine aircraft use recycled engine oil to continuously inhibit the aircraft against rust and thus last forever.

The engineer that built and maintained round engines was indeed, a master artisan that could work magic!! And with 56 spark plugs, an artisan of infinite patience.

:D

[By George]

During my early days in aviation I flew Bristol Freighters with Air Express based in Essendon Melbourne. If my memory serves me correctly we counted the blades passing the cockpit window, primed on the fifth blade, ignition on nine blades and off she went in a cloud of white smoke, crackling and farting away. Nothing quite like it. 1980 bhp, 56 inches on take-off. Amazing engineering to time the sleeves. 30 odd gears, it looked like a giant watch in parts. 20 gallon oil tanks and each engine used around 3 gallons an hour.
Funny thing, we thundered over peoples houses rattling windows and leaking oil and nobody complained. Different times I guess.

[Seabreeze]

During my early days in aviation I flew Bristol Freighters with Air Express based in Essendon Melbourne. If my memory serves me correctly we counted the blades passing the cockpit window, primed on the fifth blade, ignition on nine blades and off she went in a cloud of white smoke, crackling and farting away. Nothing quite like it. 1980 bhp, 56 inches on take-off. Amazing engineering to time the sleeves. 30 odd gears, it looked like a giant watch in parts. 20 gallon oil tanks and each engine used around 3 gallons an hour.
Funny thing, we thundered over peoples houses rattling windows and leaking oil and nobody complained. Different times I guess.
And By George, as a young boy I used to watch you from Frankston beach struggling to get some altitude and travelling at what seemed to be an impossibly slow airspeed as you winged your way to Tassie.
SB

[Capt Fathom]

If radials make music the Pratt & Whitney R-4360 Corn Con engine is an entire symphony orchestra:

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/873x655/corn_cob_engine_b3a42768eb37d9eafcc39eb453b2f4f9d347f9eb.jpg


I believe this ‘engine’ is a P&W mock-up. It has 8 rows of cylinders for a total of 56!

[Dora-9]

Music comes from big round piston engines, not flat piston engines!

No so TW, it comes from thrust augmenters!

[megan]

I believe this ‘engine’ is a P&W mock-up. It has 8 rows of cylinders for a total of 56!General conses seems to be it's something cobbled together to drag around to airshows. P & W history makes no mention, if it were a real developmental product it would be sitting in a notable museum.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1342/webdsc_0082_2c2475c5b35fd947bd5fbd5953e45773753402f0.jpg

Biggest aero engine ever built in the free world was the Lycoming XR-7755.

https://oldmachinepress.com/2018/05/20/lycoming-xr-7755-35-cylinder-aircraft-engine/

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/625x480/lycoming_xr_7755_3_stand_ad58cfcdd2c35e78d4ab375a048270a4add b45d3.jpg

[PiperCameron]

Biggest aero engine ever built in the free world was the Lycoming XR-7755.

https://oldmachinepress.com/2018/05/20/lycoming-xr-7755-35-cylinder-aircraft-engine/

Impressive! A mechanic's dream that one..

We gotta get rid of turbines, they are ruining aviation.

We need to go back to big round engines.

Methinks the concept of monitoring oil usage (in gal/hr) as well as fuel usage, knowing that running out of either will send you earthwards, would probably be well beyond the capabilities of most student pilots (and their EFBs) these days.

[First_Principal]

Methinks the concept of monitoring oil usage (in gal/hr) as well as fuel usage, knowing that running out of either will send you earthwards, would probably be well beyond the capabilities of most student pilots (and their EFBs) these days.

That's a pretty low opinion of today's pilots!

I doubt anyone would let a fledgling pilot loose on their round-engined machine without first ensuring they knew a fair bit about it, and the concept of regularly checking the oil tank(s) is hardly difficult so I'd have thought most would be capable of that.

Perhaps more challenging would be the need to understand the effect of superchargers (in some cases), and to be on your game for whenever one or more of the pots decide to let go (in some other cases), particularly as many of these machines are getting fairly long in the tooth nowadays.

And to get back to the title of the thread; most people seem to be concentrating on the external noise, internally the loudest machine I ever flew was round-engined. Magnificent though it was, it certainly made communication difficult, even with reasonable headsets - it would have been hell back in the day. Today's industrial deafness issues would have paled in comparison to these!

FP.

[tail wheel]

Capt Fathom

I believe this ‘engine’ is a P&W mock-up. It has 8 rows of cylinders for a total of 56!

Indeed it is a mock up, a prize for you for observation! :}

OK, I'll com clean, this is a real 4360 Wasp Major "Corn Cob" engine - 4 rows of seven cylinders = 28 cylinders:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x960/4360_engine_3197fe384a58e82fa6d110f4f273edc818c04c7c.jpg

4,362.5 cu in (71.5 L), 4,300 hp (3,200 kW) the most powerful and largest radial engine development by Pratt & Whitney.

[Captain Dart]

The Convair B-36 had six of 'em plus four jets! No wonder they had 2 flight engineers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM1CZdppWrU

[megan]

You can tour the B-36 cockpit here, along with other aircraft in the museum.

https://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Visit/Virtual-Tour/Cockpit360/

The usage to which some of the old round engine aircraft were put the fuel load outlasted the oil supply, necessitating extra oil tanks being located in the fuselage and pumped to the respective engine oil tank as required.