British Normandy Memorial

[WE Branch Fanatic]

British Normandy Memorial (https://www.britishnormandymemorial.org/)

Official opening today - 77 years one from that day that changed the course of history and was a significant part of consigning the evils of Nazism to the dustbin of history.

Lest we forget!

[effortless]

I see that the US have four aircraft overflying. Are we represented?

[Barksdale Boy]

Just watched it - deeply moving. The Arrows were there.

[wiggy]

Memorial was the lead item on France 2 lunchtime news..

:ok:

[Chugalug2]

22422 names inscribed on the memorial, extending from D-Day to the final liberation of Normandy. Another awesome statistic to add to those already recorded elsewhere for other campaigns and battles. So few of the survivors left with us now, and this cruel pandemic meant most had to attend the video link at the NMA at Alrewas.

A moving ceremony that rightly put the veterans front and centre. Like the BC memorial in London we have waited far too long for it but it is perhaps all the more impressive for that, sited as it is immediately above Gold Beach. It now joins the other allied memorials strung along the Normandy coast celebrating the start of the liberation of Europe, a liberation that was by no means a foregone conclusion. Only the tenacity and sacrifice of those who fought there ensured success.

We Will Remember Them!

[Mickj3]

I'm a little confused. At various times throughout the programe the cameras panned the panels with the names of the fallen inscribed on them. I kept seeing the rank inscription of SJT and LSJT. Were these abreviations for Sergeant and Lance Sergeant?

[Ninthace]

I'm a little confused. At various times throughout the programe the cameras panned the panels with the names of the fallen inscribed on them. I kept seeing the rank inscription of SJT and LSJT. Were these abreviations for Sergeant and Lance Sergeant? I believe the rank Serjeant was retained in the Rifles and later the Royal Green Jackets when the spelling changed

[Lima Juliet]

Serjeant also Int Corps and Corps of Royal Engineers. There is also the Serjeant Surgeon - the senior Surgeon in the Royal Household :ok:

[SASless]

The D-Day Memorial in the United States is near a small town in the State of Virginia.

Among the troops landing on Omaha Beach in the first wave was a unit formed from the Army National Guard from around the town of Bedford.

That unit took 95% casualties during the first ten minutes of the landing.

It was said that every family in the Bedford area lost someone on that beach.

Each year....the gallantry and sacrifice of those of all Nations that day are honored and given respect.

That is as it should be.

There is a fine book about that Battalion of Infantry called "The Bedford Boys"

[Parson]

Caught a glimpse of the fly past - were there only 8 Arrows or did I get that wrong?

[radar101]

Looked like 8: ? missing man formation?

[VictorGolf]

Saw a picture of the Arrows at the Midland Air Festival later that day and there were only 8 aircraft.

[gums]

Salute!

Hope Britain proles realized how brutal and inportant Normandy was. Most proles here in the Colonies just remember a movie or two.

Many do not realize that 3 outta the 5 beaches were landed by British and Canadian forces. And you know what? After a day the Allies had established a beach head and were moving east.

Gums sends...

[PapaDolmio]

Salute!

Hope Britain proles realized how brutal and inportant Normandy was. Most proles here in the Colonies just remember a movie or two.

Many do not realize that 3 outta the 5 beaches were landed by British and Canadian forces. And you know what? After a day the Allies had established a beach head and were moving east.

Gums sends...
Indeed but not very far... at least for a while. Most people don't know how brutal and intense the fighting was in Normandy (for all sides). Lots of books out there- Six Armies in Normandy by John Keegan being imo one of the best.

One of the things that amazes me is how it was planned and put together so that everything and everyone was in the right place at the right time...well almost anyway. And all without computers- just lots of bods with typewriters. The staff work must have been staggering.

[Asturias56]

"One of the things that amazes me is how it was planned and put together so that everything and everyone was in the right place at the right time2

It's worth looking at Roskill's Official History of the War at Sea for D-Day planning - astounding where everything came from and how it all had to arrive in the right place at the right time......

[Asturias56]

"Hope Britain proles realized how brutal and important Normandy was. Most proles here in the Colonies just remember a movie or two."

D-Day is remembered as a great victory - the word has entered the English language. But the slogging for the next two moths, before break-out, is somewhat (tho not totally) played down.

[Bergerie1]

Admiral Sir Bertram Ramsey is one of the unsung heros of D-Day only a few people seem to remember. He died in a mysterious air crash in 1945, Ramsay's legacy has been remembered by the Royal Navy but his key role in the Allied victory has been widely forgotten. After the war ended his achievements ranked alongside those of Sir Winston Churchill, Field Marshal Viscount Alanbrooke, Field Marshal Viscount Montgomery and General Dwight Eisenhower, yet he never received the public recognition he deserved.

Brian Izzard's new biography of Ramsay puts him and his work back centre-stage, arguing that Ramsay was the mastermind without whom the outcome of both Dunkirk and D-Day - and perhaps the entire war - could have been very different:-
https://www.casematepublishing.co.uk/mastermind-of-dunkirk-and-d-day.html

And this YouTube tribute:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8avIiYGRgM

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Admiral Sir Bertram Ramsey is one of the unsung heros of D-Day only a few people seem to remember. He died in a mysterious air crash in 1945, Ramsay's legacy has been remembered by the Royal Navy but his key role in the Allied victory has been widely forgotten. After the war ended his achievements ranked alongside those of Sir Winston Churchill, Field Marshal Viscount Alanbrooke, Field Marshal Viscount Montgomery and General Dwight Eisenhower, yet he never received the public recognition he deserved.

Brian Izzard's new biography of Ramsay puts him and his work back centre-stage, arguing that Ramsay was the mastermind without whom the outcome of both Dunkirk and D-Day - and perhaps the entire war - could have been very different:-
https://www.casematepublishing.co.uk/mastermind-of-dunkirk-and-d-day.html

And this YouTube tribute:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8avIiYGRgM

Thank you for posting the video.

[SASless]

"One of the things that amazes me is how it was planned and put together so that everything and everyone was in the right place at the right time2

In a general sense...exactly right.

After that "everyone at the right place at the right time" depends upon what you define as the right place and at the right time.

The Airborne Drops surely did not meet that standard.

Some of the beach landings were at the wrong place which allowed for fewer casualties.

Then there is the matter of the sixth beach.

The other factoid that should be considered....there were more casualties at Omaha Beach than all of the other four Beaches combined....Gold, Juno, Sword, and Utah.

The American 1st and 29th Divisions took approximately 24,000 wounded and killed getting across the beach and onto high ground.

The great planning somehow overlooked what kind of terrain lay behind the beaches in Normandy and did not appreciate the effect the Hedgerows would provide the defenders.

No matter how one looks at it....it was an amazing feat of arms....done on the courage and dedication of the Troops involved in the. actual combat but achieved because the excellent logistics system that was on place leading up to and during the beach assault and the rest of the War.

[gums]

Salute!

My connection with that "longest day" is the landing craft were built in my home town of New Orleans. They are mightily featured at the WW2 Museum there today.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/featured/boat-won-world-war-ii.html
************************

To this day I wonder why 8th AF and Bomber Command did not come in low during the night and pulverize the defensive positions. It's true that by June 1944 that there were many mobile and deadly radar-controlled AAA units, but they could still only fire at one target at a time and seems like a few hundred buffs would have made quite a dent in the Nazi defensive capability.
I guess the early parachute drops made for more tricky timing than they already had to deal with, and bombing too early would give away the exact landing beaches.
In any case, the whole thing was amazing when looking at the sheer number of units from several countries, and types of equipment they used, then the real time landing of logistics a few hours after troops stormed the beaches.

Gums sends...

[SASless]

Had the bombers effectively carried out their assigned task of bombing the beaches to provide craters for cover for the Infantry and detonated more mines and perhaps destroying some beach obstacles...and remove barbed wire defenses....Omaha might not have seen the slaughter it did.

Using Heavy Bombers in a tactical role did not work well during the War.

Operation Cobra is another example in addition to the D-Day Beach bombing effort.

Technology and tactics were still rather primitive which limited the capability of the Air Force to put bombs onto limited areas as happened in both D-Day and in Cobra.

[Chugalug2]

Gums :-
To this day I wonder why 8th AF and Bomber Command did not come in low during the night and pulverize the defensive positions. It's true that by June 1944 that there were many mobile and deadly radar-controlled AAA units, but they could still only fire at one target at a time and seems like a few hundred buffs would have made quite a dent in the Nazi defensive capability.
I guess the early parachute drops made for more tricky timing than they already had to deal with, and bombing too early would give away the exact landing beaches.

I think you answered your own question in your last sentence and, as SASless points out, strategic bombers didn't then make good tactical ones, especially by night. The strategic bombers had already contributed enormously to D-Day (and the Soviet advance) by locking up the majority of Luftwaffe fighters and heavy AA in defending the skies over the Reich. The absence of the Luftwaffe in France was the elephant in the room, and greatly enabled the successful invasion of Europe by the Allies.

As to a few hundred Buffs, if only!

[Tartiflette Fan]

"Hope Britain proles realized how brutal and important Normandy was. Most proles here in the Colonies just remember a movie or two."

D-Day is remembered as a great victory - the word has entered the English language.) played down.

Quite right. For a very long time however, I wondered what the "D" stood for, until I later discovered it was simply the "D" of "Day.. In French D-Day is not Jour-D but Jour-J.

[gums]

Salute!

Good points, Chug.

I only saw good results of tactical bombing with the B-52's twice - the Khe San defense in 1967-68 and then the An Loc batle in 1972. In both battles they dropped very close to the friendlies, mainly trying and succeeding to keep the enema from gathering strength and "charging".

The An Loc bombing was much more effective than the Khe San effort. By 1972 we had very accurate targeting data from the grunts at the camp, and the Buffs had refined their dropping accuracy. The drops over Hanoi in 1972 resembled WW2. Not massive "carpet bombing" but specific targets, and when we could not go visually, we used LORAN pathfinders for the sky puke. I dropped once visually, and twice on the wing of a F-4 LORAN bird. I had boots on the ground BDA from a friend that was released a few months later, and he told me we pulverized the railyard that day.

I still think a good Mossie pathfinder or two and some flare markers would have allowed the Lancs and Libs and Forts to pulverize the beach head at 0000 hours and then have the airborne folks drop a few miles inland an hour later. At 3,000 feet or so it's hard to miss.

Other great point by Chug: the elephant in the room....... The U.S. did not have air superiority contested after Pearl Harbor, and that objective was incorporated into USAF doctrine. I have heard of a few LW planes sticking their noses into the fray, but nothing to write home about.

Gums sends...

[wiggy]

The great planning somehow overlooked what kind of terrain lay behind the beaches in Normandy and did not appreciate the effect the Hedgerows would provide the defenders.
.

I have never quite understood why that happened..

Anybody familiar with the Normandy bocage (and you'd assume somebody on the staff would have been) would have noticed that there were obvious parallels with the field and especially the lane/road side hedge construction there with the earth/stone lane/roadside banks you see enclosing many of the small fields in areas of the South Hams in the county of Devon in the UK..where it just so happened many US units were accommodated in the run up to D-Day....so you would have hoped somebody would have gone :hmm:..as you say it got overlooked..

https://www.devon.gov.uk/historicenvironment/land-management/hedges-and-the-historic-environment/

Hedges in Devon are an important part of the distinctive character of the County with medieval hedges in particular contributing to the irregular and sinuous network of small fields and deep lanes which define the rural landscape.

http://www.totnes-today.co.uk/article.cfm?id=118096&headline=World%20War%20Two%20in%20the%20South%20Hams&sectionIs=news&searchyear=2019

[IFPS man]

D = Deliverence (day)

[Asturias56]

It was just D for Day

[Asturias56]

All the accumulated evidence for beach landings up to June 44 showed the necessity for ship based support fire. Air support wasn't accurate enough nor as responsive. Air was best used to cut communications with the landing areas and take out one or two large, fixed targets and to provide air cover to protect the landings.

AFAIK the terrain behind the beaches in Normandy was not factored in at all - the importance was a large area of good beaches so that they could get a large force ashore within 24 hours and not get hung up by a single point of failure (such as the problems at Omaha). They should have prioritised a rapid push inland within 24 hours but once ashore they dug in (as at Salerno). Although fighting in the bocage was tough I don't think it was as bad as the terrain in Italy where the Allies struggled for nearly two years making very very slow progress

[SASless]

Italy was made for defense....and the German Army was very good at that.

Once. Patton's Third Army broke out....it became a race to the Rhine limited by the ability of the logistical organization to keep the Allied Armies supplied.

Germany fighting a War on two fronts was doomed to defeat as it just did not have the fighting power to deal with the Allied Armies in the West and the Soviets in the East.

[gums]

Salute!

@astur... The Allies did not improve or even develop decent close air support in the Euro theater like the Pacific USMC and even Army units for all their beach heads prior to Normandy.. As much as I appreciate the naval gunfire, and being a serious, experienced, combat CAS puke, there is no substitute for seeing the enama tracers or even troops climbing the fence. I saw the New Jersey in 'nam with naval support fire and besides minutes to coordinate a firing, and then 100 meter accuracy at best, the grunts liked a good tacair plane nearby and a strike could be made within less than a minute.

My wingie and I were awarded a decoration one day by the army unit we helped because we dropped on the point of attack while artillery was still raining down at the Y-Bridge battle (1968). No big deal, and we hit the bad guys while the smoke trails from their RPG's were still visible, and we were in perfect position to roll in, which we did. No naval support would have been as timely or accurate, nor the artillery just 4 miles away.

On D-Day, we had plenty of P-47's and Hurricanes that could have provided rapid and accurate delivery provided we had the tactical network we developed within the next few months. The air superiority speaks for itself, as the "leader" had dictated air defense of the homeland uber all else.

The CAS doctrine developed quickly in WW2 and then over in Korea 6 years later. I really feel the USMC did the most development of actual tactics. logistics and the communication infrastructure required for effective close air support due to the Pacific Theater landings.

In any case, many brave souls were lost on the beaches. The outcome would have been very bad had we not had so many of those that gave their all.

Gums sends...

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Can we get back to D Day and the Normandy campaign?

I believe that no specific campaign was issued, but looking at my Grandfather's medals, the Atlantic Star has the clasp "France and Germany".

[tdracer]

The great planning somehow overlooked what kind of terrain lay behind the beaches in Normandy and did not appreciate the effect the Hedgerows would provide the defenders.


It wasn't overlooked, but it was very much a secondary concern. The primary issue was making the landings on beaches that were less heavily defended so that the initial landings would be successful. If the initial landings didn't succeed, what laid behind the beaches wouldn't matter.
That's why they didn't go to Calais or to a channel port - those were much heavier defended than the Normandy beaches.
Lots went wrong at Omaha - perhaps the biggest being that the DD tanks were offloaded too far from shore and were swamped by the heavy seas. Something like 90% of the DD tanks at Omaha sank. Had even half of them made it, their firepower would have made a big difference.

[Bergerie1]

See my post 17 and this video here. An huge amount of planning and deception went into fooling the German defenders. That is one of the reasons why the Normandy beaches were less well defended.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5pvl7Ig7P4

[SASless]

The choice of Normandy was also decided by simple geography....The Netherlands and Belgium were low lying areas filled with canals and other water obstacles with most sites being on peninsulas, around Calais was too close to the Great Britain to facilitate the naval and air traffic....as well as being the heaviest defended and the Area of Operations for the 15th Army....and that left Normandy with nice sandy beaches and with sea ports close by.

One D-Day...the troops landing on Utah were swept about a mile away from their intended landing points which turned out to be a blessing as they landed at less well defended positions.

Some strategists were advocating not even doing Overlord and just waiting for the Strategic Bombing Campaign and the Russian's to bring Germany to its knees.

Churchill favored a Mediterranean avenue of advance and not doing Overlord for quite a while.

Other Operational Plans, amongst them Operation Rankin A,B, and C, were drafted ahead of Overlord which was an independent effort done by separate planners.

The US 101st Airborne Division was to be dropped into France to seize a seaport which would then be used to insert Allied ground forces should the German defenses be seen to be collapsing.

It makes one wonder if the Normandy Campaign with its tremendous losses could have been avoided had the Strategic Bombing campaign had not been suspended for the four months or so it was to support the lead up and immediate aftermath of D-Day.

[Lookleft]

On D-Day, we had plenty of P-47's and Hurricanes that could have provided rapid and accurate delivery provided we had the tactical network we developed within the next few months.

The Allies did not improve or even develop decent close air support in the Euro theater like the Pacific USMC and even Army units for all their beach heads prior to Normandy..

By D-Day the Hurricane was well and truly gone from RAF service in the ETO. You might be confusing the Hurricane with the Typhoon. I think you will also find that Eidenhower's Deputy Supreme Commander had already developed the tactical airforce and the cab rank concept in the desert and bought that concept to the Normandy campaign. D-Day fire support was largely a naval affair. The CAS mission was established once airfields within the bridgehead were established. There were no aircraft carriers off the coast of Normandy, thats what England was for.

Strategic bombers were used in the opening stages of the invasion especially on the American beaches but the bombing was largely ineffective as the bombs fell inland. The idea was that the bombs would provide instant foxholes but due to bomb creep completely missed the beaches.

I think any commemoration of D-Day is a good thing as the knowledge of what happened, within the general public, is woeful. There is a particular game show that I watch called Tipping Point where the general knowledge questions that relate to WW2 are invariably wrong. Questions such as "In what 20th Century conflict was the Battle of Britain?" "World War One" was the reply.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Is it easy to find out at which beach specific ships and other units were present on D Day? My Grandfather was aboard HMS Belfast.

[Innominate]

From https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/8-things-you-didnt-know-about-hms-belfast-and-d-day "On 6 June 1944, HMS Belfast was the flagship of Bombardment Force E, supporting troops landing at Gold and Juno beaches (https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-d-day-beaches). Her first target was the German gun battery at La Marefontaine. As a result of HMS Belfast’s bombardment, the battery played no meaningful role in the defence of the beaches."

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Thank you.

[tdracer]

Is it easy to find out at which beach specific ships and other units were present on D Day? My Grandfather was aboard HMS Belfast.
I don't know if you can access this or not, but the Belfast plays a staring role in the Season 1, Episode 4 "D Day" episode of "Combat Ships" on the Smithsonian Channel.
https://www.smithsonianchannel.com/details/series/combat-ships/season-1

[Asturias56]

"Is it easy to find out at which beach specific ships and other units were present on D Day? My Grandfather was aboard HMS Belfast.?"

Start with Roskills Official history

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Somewhere there is an official summary of service....

Here - along with summaries for other RN ships (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/777611/01021.pdf)

She was among the Home Fleet ships lent for the landings in Normandy, Operation “Neptune”, on 6 June 1944, when she flew the flag of Rear-Admiral F H G Dalrymple-Hamilton, Commanding the 10th Cruiser Squadron. Allocated to bombardment Force ‘E’, in support of the Eastern Task Force under Rear-Admiral Sir Philip Vian, she took part in several shoots until 8 July.

If I remember correctly she fired so many rounds that her barrels were worn out.

[Wensleydale]

Is it easy to find out at which beach specific ships and other units were present on D Day? My Grandfather was aboard HMS Belfast.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1514x989/neptune_1_d610cc6c9d73ae443f9903147309a2114052f272.jpg

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/942x649/neptune_2_b767c62ddf457b1bfdbcb7ab9b0ee4d70179ba8c.jpg

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Many thanks again.

Sadly my Grandfather died when I was at primary school, but the family has various momentos of his wartime service and things like photographs of Belfast covered in ice - a major danger to ship stability. My late Uncle, an RAF Flight Engineer in Lancasters and later Sunderlands, passed on many of his wartime tales second hand.

Truly a remarkable generation.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

War Graves guardians take over new £30 million Normandy memorial - RN website (https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2021/august/25/20210825-normandy-memorial)

The impressive new memorial to Britons killed liberating Normandy in 1944 will be cared for by the guardians of the nation’s war dead.

From October, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission takes over maintenance of the British Normandy Memorial, which was dedicated in June.

The monument at Ver-sur-Mer, overlooking what was codenamed Gold Beach in 1944, has been created over the past five years as the sole site of memory honouring all 22,442 men and women under British command lost in the Battle for Normandy between June 6 and late August.

[Kiltrash]

I'd i can just chip in with a suggestion for those who can when in the area to visit the D Day Museum in Southsea Portsmouth. It shows the planning and recollections, from both sides, of the events on June 6