MOD Diversity Chief

[Saintsman]

Yes, it was bound to happen in these times - a review of the rank convention.

I'm sure she will never have to put her life on the line, but she will be comforted by knowing that the rank names are all politically correct when they are standing in the trenches.

To be fair though, it's not her fault that the role has been created, nor the salary it attracts, but there are probably more important things to target than rank names.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9634545/Ministry-Defences-new-110-000-year-diversity-chief-takes-aim-armed-forces-sexist-ranks.html

[NutLoose]

What a waste of money, will the Queen still be the head of the Services or is she about to be woked Into some ridiculous title, will the Carriers Prince of Wales and the Queen Elizabeth be renamed?
Let’s just wipe history and start again :ugh:

[Finningley Boy]

So does an F-35 Pilot get £110,000 a year?:confused:

FB

PS mind you, could an F-35 Jockey do what a Diversity Tzar, or whatever the correct title is, can?:confused:

[Melchett01]

I’ve served with blacks whites and every colour in between, gays, straight, transsexuals, and just generally confused sorts. All anybody cares about when the rounds are flying is can you do your job and not get everyone killed.

And what I find more offensive as a member of a fighting Service is that my Service cares more about my being in date for health & safety and D&I training than it does about the last time I fired a weapon. And just looking at her photo and reading her bio you get the impression she is one of nature’s perpetually offended who will find offence in everything but not actually question how such offence makes doing our job of defending the country easier or more effective.

[Trumpet trousers]

"Beagle, this is Mission Control, you're clear for throttle up, call on re-entry.."

[Ascend Charlie]

I expect the first rank she will object to is "seaman."

No more Corporal Punishment, or Private Parts?

[etudiant]

Is there an MOD post for winning?

[Lookleft]

Your MoD needs these blokes to be in charge.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-21/defence-chief-angus-campbell-political-correctness-morning-teas/100156436

[Courtney Mil]

Oh, Good God!

[Dorf]

Are you telling me this woke **** has made it to the other side of the pond? I always saw the Brits as the last bastion of normalcy. Sorry guys, hopefully a vaccine is in the works.

[Wensleydale]

I was saving this poster (with caption removed) for a Cap Com, but it is probably more relevant here... things have certainly changed since WW2.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/601x800/poster_7ab808bd9a1165857beca0dca4b82cdb2c27d13e.jpg

[Nick 1]

Politically correct will extinguish mankind not wars .

[DuncanDoenitz]

Probably just me, but when I looked on the MoD website I couldn't find a story on this topic, although I did find a Diversity Dashboard. When I googled "mod diversity rank review" I just got links to tabloids.

If there's an MOD source for this I'd appreciate the link, but If my brand-new laptop needs to visit DM to get the source, I'll just let it slide, thanks.

[pr00ne]

Nick 1,

So you think that the lack of the ability to discriminate, be rude, objectify and suppress will somehow "extinguish" mankind?

[Old-Duffer]

How can she be the Diversity TZAR - that's a male title?

Whatever results it will not make a rat's ass of difference to the efficiency or otherwise of the armed forces.

I have a friend called PENMAN - will he have to change his name by deedpoll to PENPERSON?

Old Duffer

[esscee]

Complete load of Tosh and even more so, a waste of money that could be used elsewhere. If this is the direction the Services leadership is headed then Heavens help us!

[sharpend]

I just give up. There is no hope.

[MPN11]

WTF is an "airshipman"? The R-101 went down in 1930!

[BEagle]

Given all the training which is undoubtedly now in place, as it first made its appearance some 20+ years ago, why is this high-level post actually needed?

Bill and Ted had it right:

https://youtu.be/rph_1DODXDU

"Be excellent to each other.....

And party on, dudes!!"

Surely that's all that people need to practise!

[Wensleydale]

WTF is an "airshipman"? The R-101 went down in 1930!

I assume that they meant Midshipman, but the spoolchicker got in the way.

[NutLoose]

So looking at the RAF structure the only real contentious ones are AC, LAC and SAC, as we already have aircrew, simply change them to Groundcrew, Leading Groundcrew and Senior Groundcrew, it’s neutral and differentiates rolls too.

Where do I pick up my third share of £110000?

I do wonder if “she” (am I allowed to say that) will go after engineering terms like male and female connectors that are a simple and accurate way to describe fittings that make sense when when translating from the written word to the physical.

[BEagle]

No doubt 'spade terminals' will also have to go??

[NutLoose]

And cockpit.

[MPN11]

Armourers will have to re-name LGBs.

[Wensleydale]

And cockpit.

does it become a Box Office?

[NutLoose]

A box has connotations to a piece of male protection so is probably thus not allowed.

[Ninthace]

In an idle moment, many years ago, while sittiing in on a design meeting (hah!) for JPA, I suggested that confusion over ranks and titles in the various services could be avoided by introducing the SI approach to management. The basic unit would be the Boss (B). This would situated somewhere round the Warrant Officer or Flying Offer level - we can debate that at some point. Each rank above or below would have the appropriate SI prefix so going up we could have dekaBoss (daB), hectoBoss (hB), kiloBoss (kB), MegaBoss (MB) etc and going down, deciBoss (dB), centiBoss cB, milliBoss (mB), microBoss µB and so on. This gets rid of any arguments based on equivalence between services and is gender neutral. Moreover, everyone gets to be a boss, reinforcing self esteem and making people feel valued. Moreover, if B were set around WO level, we would know who the boss was.
Rank tabs could either be replaced by a simple number indicating the appropriate power of 10, colour coded to indicate if it is a postive or negative power or by the SI rank abbreviation. A second identifier could then be added for specialisation or trade if needed, e.g. hB (aircrew) or µB (wpns)
Now where do I collect my award?

[NutLoose]

Wasn’t Hercules a man? Will that need renaming?

[Wensleydale]

In an idle moment, many years ago, while sittiing in on a design meeting (hah!) for JPA, I suggested that confusion over ranks and titles in the various services could be avoided by introducing the SI approach to management. The basic unit would be the Boss (B). This would situated somewhere round the Warrant Officer or Flying Offer level - we can debate that at some point. Each rank above or below would have the appropriate SI prefix so going up we could have dekaBoss (daB), hectoBoss (hB), kiloBoss (kB), MegaBoss (MB) etc and going down, deciBoss (dB), centiBoss cB, milliBoss (mB), microBoss µB and so on. This gets rid of any arguments based on equivalence between services and is gender neutral. Moreover, everyone gets to be a boss, reinforcing self esteem and making people feel valued. Moreover, if B were set around WO level, we would know who the boss was.
Rank tabs could either be replaced by a simple number indicating the appropriate power of 10, colour coded to indicate if it is a postive or negative power or by the SI rank abbreviation. A second identifier could then be added for specialisation or trade if needed, e.g. hB (aircrew) or µB (wpns)
Now where do I collect my award?

You can't use colour to donate seniority - that could offend someone.

[Bob Viking]

Do you know what? Its worth £110,000 just to wind everyone up on here. Money well spent.

BV

[Ninthace]

You can't use colour to donate seniority - that could offend someone.

You could use green, very trendy these days, and blue, as in blue sky, again very positive, or is that blue for negative? Either way it is down to Earth. As far as I know, there are no green or blue people.

[Barksdale Boy]

Ninthace

That may well prove in future to be galaxcyist.

[Wensleydale]

You could use green, very trendy these days, and blue, as in blue sky, again very positive, or is that blue for negative? Either way it is down to Earth. As far as I know, there are no green or blue people.

...except for football supporters? I am sure that putting red above blue or vice versa would have a few grumbles!

[PaulH1]

Yes but we already know that Blue is for boys and Pink for girls. ummm....

[MPN11]

I can't stop thinking about the old pre-WW2 RN rank lace, with all the different colours. Green = Electrical, Orange = Dental ... I'm sure a MoD Committee could come up with a modern woke version.

[Two's in]

A bunch of angry old white men defending an outrage hit piece by a right-wing fascist rag.

...And they say irony's dead.

[Tartiflette Fan]

You can't use colour to donate seniority - that could offend someone.

It already has."

"Spain’s postal service has been rebuked by anti-racism campaigners after it launched a limited-edition run of skin-toned stamps in which the dark skin tones have a lower monetary value than the light ones. "

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/28/racism-row-spanish-equality-stamps-give-lower-value-dark-skin/

[NutLoose]

Do you know what? Its worth £110,000 just to wind everyone up on here. Money well spent.

BV


Well you’re ok BOB, Blackadder ensured BOB can be any sex ;)

[NutLoose]

A bunch of angry old white men defending an outrage hit piece by a right-wing fascist rag.

...And they say irony's dead.

Who says we are white, angry, old, and male, it’s woke statements like that which really gall ;)

[vascodegama]

Actually BOB it’s your punctuation(or lack thereof) that winds me up!

[MPN11]

Who says we are white, angry, old, and male, it’s woke statements like that which really gall ;)
I self-identify as an old while male, but I’m open to consider different categorisations in return for a 6-figure sum.

[LOMCEVAK]

I am sure that all of the old white males remember 'M*A*S*H' on TV, all those decades ago, where Cpl 'Radar' O'Reilly always referred to Maj Margaret Houlihan as 'Sir'. And did she ever complain?!

[Finningley Boy]

How can she be the Diversity TZAR - that's a male title?

Whatever results it will not make a rat's ass of difference to the efficiency or otherwise of the armed forces.

I have a friend called PENMAN - will he have to change his name by deedpoll to PENPERSON?

Old Duffer
Hi Old Duffer,
As he's a chum he might get away with Penpal!?

FB

PS My fault about the Tzar title, I anointed the young lady in lieu of Diversity Chief which I thought to have the same meaning, almost.

[Stratnumberone]

Wasn’t Hercules a man? Will that need renaming?

Good point. I fully expect they’ll spend £10 million to rename it, just in time to save £8 million by retiring it early in 2023 😬

[Finningley Boy]

Nick 1,

So you think that the lack of the ability to discriminate, be rude, objectify and suppress will somehow "extinguish" mankind?
Is the title airman or the term airmanship or airshipmanship really rude and offensive? We used to have the term airwoman, that was dropped through this same line of thinking and all became airmen. It strikes me that any reference to women is offensive, the people who pursue this obsessive mindset are driven by an inability to accept what nature has created, man and woman, male and female. I really do question the sensibility of today's defence chiefs and elected politicians for their craven acquiescence. Do they really in all honesty believe this kind hectoring us all to learn another language, aimed at dismissing a fact of life, is money well spent? What's for sure, it isn't broadly supported by the public and it certainly won't slake the appetite of the woke industry, they'll keep at it, there'll be an even more outrageous reason for outrage soon.

FB

[MPN11]

+ ten gender-neutral characters.

[Haraka]

Just now watch the "Wokists" scrabbling for career advancement!

[Ninthace]

When I was alive we had the ranks if Flt Lt and Flt Lt (W). Then they disappeared although I don't recall it being an issue. These days, wnen I apply for car insurance, when I give my title a Dr, the next question is always M or F? Why is the latter acceptable when the former isn't any more?

[viz]

A bunch of angry old white men defending an outrage hit piece by a right-wing fascist rag.

...And they say irony's dead.

A bloke full of his own self importance commenting on what he calls a bunch of of white men replying to a thread on an open forum.

And they say irony's dead :hmm:

[Wensleydale]

When I was alive we had the ranks if Flt Lt and Flt Lt (W). Then they disappeared although I don't recall it being an issue. These days, when I apply for car insurance, when I give my title a Dr, the next question is always M or F? Why is the latter acceptable when the former isn't any more?

It was so much simpler to use the (W) after a rank when arranging accommodation etc for a detachment. When this rank distinction ceased then it became necessary for the "booking cell" to have another means of not making an inappropriate room share.

[MPN11]

(oops, took to long to post that ... just what Wensleydale said)
Consulting with the OH, she can’t recall the (W) bit but she does recall being redesignated RAF instead of WRAF. As an Admin Branch person, she found that did present certain immediate difficulties, as it was no longer easy to identify Fg Off Harvey’s gender from the paperwork. Different Admin processes applied, not least in the accommodation and clothing field.

[Dan Gerous]

I am sure that all of the old white males remember 'M*A*S*H' on TV, all those decades ago, where Cpl 'Radar' O'Reilly always referred to Maj Margaret Houlihan as 'Sir'. And did she ever complain?!

Quite by chance I happen to be working my way through the M*A*S*H* box set at the moment, and I very much doubt that it would be shown on TV now.

[Barksdale Boy]

FB

"hectoring"?

[MPN11]

In other politically correct news ...

https://www.who.int/en/activities/tracking-SARS-CoV-2-variants/

“To assist with public discussions of variants, WHO convened a group of scientists from the WHO Virus Evolution Working Group, the WHO COVID-19 reference laboratory network, representatives from GISAID, Nextstrain, Pango and additional experts in virological, microbial nomenclature and communication from several countries and agencies to consider easy-to-pronounce and non-stigmatising labels for VOI and VOC. At the present time, this expert group convened by WHO has recommended using labeled using letters of the Greek Alphabet, i.e., Alpha, Beta, Gamma, which will be easier and more practical to discussed by non-scientific audiences. “

[treadigraph]

Quite by chance I happen to be working my way through the M*A*S*H* box set at the moment, and I very much doubt that it would be shown on TV now.

Two episodes on Channel 49, 7pm each weekday evening... Klinger's cross dressing balances out Hawkeye's philandering, so it's presumably still acceptable.

[Thaihawk]

Your MoD needs these blokes to be in charge.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-21/defence-chief-angus-campbell-political-correctness-morning-teas/100156436

Rule number one, no poofters.

( am I still allowed to quote from a the sketch on Monty Python where this first appeared many decades ago)

[Thaihawk]

Wasn’t Hercules a man? Will that need renaming?

Now you know why the RAF C-130s are being got rid of.

[Ascend Charlie]

What will they call the Human Resources section now?

Hu-person?

[LOMCEVAK]

Surely the word 'man' just refers to the species, homo sapiens? Words such as 'human' and 'mankind' are derivatives that have no gender connotation and cover all species members. There are some interesting parallels with other mammalian species. For example 'lion' and 'tiger' refer to the species but also denote the male of the species with separate words, lioness and tigress, to indicate the female of the species. Therefore, the words 'man' and 'woman' have lots of precedents in our language. Yet animals such as the elephant and giraffe do not have derivative words for the females so why don't we just stop using the word 'woman', call everyone a man and then everyone is equal?!

I have yet to have the privilege of discussing this with a woke .....

[Red Line Entry]

I have every sympathy with women who object to holding the rank of Senior Aircraftsman. Changing it to, where appropriate, Senior Aircraftswoman seems entirely reasonable and does not change the SAC abbreviation.

[etudiant]

I have every sympathy with women who object to holding the rank of Senior Aircraftsman. Changing it to, where appropriate, Senior Aircraftswoman seems entirely reasonable and does not change the SAC abbreviation.
Senior Aircraftsperchild or Senior Aircraftsentity would eliminate the pesky sexist 'man' suffix also w/o changing the SAC designation.

[NutLoose]

I have every sympathy with women who object to holding the rank of Senior Aircraftsman. Changing it to, where appropriate, Senior Aircraftswoman seems entirely reasonable and does not change the SAC abbreviation.

which is what we used to have.

[NutLoose]

And don’t mention the Bible, not a Doris or Gertrude amongst the 12 apostles.

[Vonrichthoffen]

I have every sympathy with women who object to holding the rank of Senior Aircraftsman. Changing it to, where appropriate, Senior Aircraftswoman seems entirely reasonable and does not change the SAC abbreviation.

I had every sympathy with women who object to everything, every-time , everywhere , whether appropriate or not. Until I walked away of course. Bliss.

[tdracer]

Recently, while playing sports with my buddies, I happened to use the term "guys" to refer to our team - which had both males and females on it. One of the male team members gently chastised me - commenting that in the diversity class he'd recently taken at his job, he was informed that referring to females as 'guys' was a "micro aggression" by some women. I responded that I considered 'guys' to be a somewhat generic team - not male specific. He agreed that he'd also considered 'guys' to be a somewhat generic term, but at least one women in the diversity class had agreed that being referred to as 'guys' was a "micro aggression". I responded (joking) "so I should say 'guys and chicks'?" (BTW I can accept women not wanting to be referred to as 'chicks' - it can be somewhat derogatory). Then, on a slightly more serious note, I asked him if I should be expecting an apology from all the women who refused to date me when I was young because I was short...?

Where does it stop? Are we going to need to replace the words "women" and "female" because they contain 'men' and 'male'? Words and phrases that we considered proper and polite just a year or two ago are now considered insults or aggressions by the perpetually offended woke crowd. Just keeping up with the changing standards is tiresome and detracts from actual productive activities.
The perpetually offended are going to be perpetually offended, no matter what we do or what words we use. At some point you simply have to tell them to :mad: off and grow up.

[NutLoose]

Funny how the the military is pushing for none gender specific while we still have

Kings and Queens
Prince and Princesses
Lords and Ladies
Earls and Duchesses
Sirs and Dames
and on. and on

[The Oberon]

Funny how the the military is pushing for none gender specific while we still have

Kings and Queens
Prince and Princesses
Lords and Ladies
Earls and Duchesses
Sirs and Dames
and on. and on

Pedant hat on.
Dukes and Duchesses.
Earls and Countesses.

[TukwillaFlyboy]

Putin and Xi Jinping must be wetting themselves........

with laughter.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

I'd be interested to know, out of the long list of posters above, how many would sign up to a job title with an overtly female title with no male equivalent. How many male rearcrew would have signed up to be a "Crewlady" or techies to be a "Senior Aircraftswoman (Tech)" if there was no male equivalent?

[PlasticCabDriver]

...as it was no longer easy to identify Fg Off Harvey’s gender from the paperwork....and clothing field.

Naughty! You’ll set@Beagle off again!

[TukwillaFlyboy]

I'd be interested to know, out of the long list of posters above, how many would sign up to a job title with an overtly female title with no male equivalent. How many male rearcrew would have signed up to be a "Crewlady" or techies to be a "Senior Aircraftswoman (Tech)" if there was no male equivalent?

Well , we can change Aircraftsman to Aircraftswomen if it makes you happy but its not the point.
Banging on about this sort of stuff in a military whose sole purpose is the use of lethal force to maintain security and further vital national interests conveys the impression of a lack of seriousness.
Lord save us if there is a serious hot conflict.
I doubt that Putin or Xi Jinping take the threat of concerted military response from the West seriously at all.
Maybe just fold the whole thing up and accept that China is the future.

[Ninthace]

I have every sympathy with women who object to holding the rank of Senior Aircraftsman. Changing it to, where appropriate, Senior Aircraftswoman seems entirely reasonable and does not change the SAC abbreviation.
I’m sure SACW was a rank when I was alive.

[Saintsman]

Don't forget to include AircraftsNonBinary in the rank structure...

[ORAC]

Yet animals such as the elephant and giraffe do not have derivative words for the females so why don't we just stop using the word 'woman',
They do. Just as humans as a group are called people but can be differentiated as men and women, elephants (as with bovines and many other species) are termed as bull and cow.

And of course there are other differentiators - and they doubtless vary from language to language.

https://termcoord.eu/2018/02/male-and-female-animal-names/

The question is to why the rank/job descriptions should need to reference sex or gender in any way. After all, the majority don’t - doctor, pilot, grocer, electrician, lieutenant, general etc.

I believe we hav3 had several threads on this subject before - IIRC someone mentioned reviving the originally proposed RAF ranks. If you go back to 1918 the trades were divided into Technical, Administrative and General. The equivalents of an LAC being Air Mechanic 3rd Class, Clerk 3rd Class and Private 2nd Class.

Then people can get onto arguing about Space Force ranks…..

https://www.thespacereview.com/article/3806/1

https://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/old_men.html

The Old Men - Rudyard Kipling

​​​​​​​….We shall peck out and discuss and dissect, and evert and extrude to our mind,
The flaccid tissues of long-dead issues offensive to God and mankind –
(Precisely like vultures over an ox that the army left behind).

We shall make walk preposterous ghosts of the glories we once created –
Immodestly smearing from muddled palettes amazing pigments mismated –
And our friend will weep when we ask them with boasts if our natural force be abated.

The Lamp of our Youth will be utterly out, but we shall subsist on the smell of it;
And whatever we do, we shall fold our hands and suck our gums and think well of it.
Yes, we shall be perfectly pleased with our work, and that is the Perfectest Hell of it…..

[Ken Scott]

Never mind just about the gender discrimination, what about ‘Flight’, ‘Flying’ and ‘Pilot’ in some of the ranks? Blatantly labeling persons as aircrew who might proudly be ground branches/ tradespersons...? An entirely new seam of complaint to mine.

[LOMCEVAK]

They do. Just as humans as a group are called people but can be differentiated as men and women, elephants (as with bovines and many other species) are termed as bull and cow.

And of course there are other differentiators - and they doubtless vary from language to language.

https://termcoord.eu/2018/02/male-and-female-animal-names/
Valid point. I suppose that the forensics of the grammar here is whether the common name for our species is 'man' or 'human'. I was assuming the former, you the latter, and in hindsight you are probably correct. But when it comes to it the context is what needs to be considered and that should determine whether 'man' applies to the whole species or just the biological male of the species.

[gamecock]

I responded that I considered 'guys' to be a somewhat generic team - not male specific.

As did one of the lads in the crewroom at Leeming in the 90s. After a perfectly-timed pause some wag then asked 'So how many guys you f****d then?'

[MPN11]

My Grandfather (RNAS, WW1) rose to the dizzy heights of Air Mechanic 1st Class. No gender bias was involved.

But, surely, the RAF could just revert to its RFC/Army roots, and have the lowest ranks gender-neutral as:
Private
Private 1st Class
Lance Corporal

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Well , we can change Aircraftsman to Aircraftswomen if it makes you happy but its not the point.
Banging on about this sort of stuff in a military whose sole purpose is the use of lethal force to maintain security and further vital national interests conveys the impression of a lack of seriousness.
Lord save us if there is a serious hot conflict.
I doubt that Putin or Xi Jinping take the threat of concerted military response from the West seriously at all.
Maybe just fold the whole thing up and accept that China is the future.

That's where you're wrong. If you were a major country (let's say the USA) facing a hypothetical massive shortage in a critical aviation role (let's say pilots) then the ability to recruit talent from all walks of life might be seen as vital.

If we in the UK were to have an underperforming recruitment organisation (hypothetically of course) can you not agree that the ability to recruit sufficient bums on seats of whatever gender or background might be vital to our ability to fulfil whatever role we choose for our defence organisation.

The military is an increasingly unattractive option in career terms and anything that we can do to broaden appeal gets my vote, notwithstanding the article that the OP pointed out which is probably (let's face it) a hatchet job by a rag.

[TukwillaFlyboy]

That's where you're wrong. If you were a major country (let's say the USA) facing a hypothetical massive shortage in a critical aviation role (let's say pilots) then the ability to recruit talent from all walks of life might be seen as vital.

If we in the UK were to have an underperforming recruitment organisation (hypothetically of course) can you not agree that the ability to recruit sufficient bums on seats of whatever gender or background might be vital to our ability to fulfil whatever role we choose for our defence organisation.

The military is an increasingly unattractive option in career terms and anything that we can do to broaden appeal gets my vote, notwithstanding the article that the OP pointed out which is probably (let's face it) a hatchet job by a rag.

Wrong ? No.
It just means we lose.
Where I live China is basically ignoring every country with a border in the South China Sea with impunity.
Australia’s exports , bar iron ore , have been boycotted by China to make a point.
International affairs are anarchic.
Capability is all that other nations understand and recognise.
”Woke” politics are the death of any serious military.

[Union Jack]

For those with a little more than an hour to spare, here's a suggestion that the so-called Diversity Chief is only about 90 years behind the curve:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_62eFr-S_Y

It's a long way from the days when the Second Sea Lord's response to a request from a Service minister for details of how many non white serving personnel there were was to the effect that "We don't keep any such records, we don't need to, and we don't intend to".

Additionally, and looking at Alan West's comments in the Mail, it's interesting to recall that he was very prominent in making the case for integrating the WRNS into the Royal Navy.

Jack

[NutLoose]

Here is one, Diversity Chief


c. 1300, "head, leader, captain; the principal or most important part of anything;" from Old French chief "leader, ruler, head" of something, "capital city" (10c., Modern French chef), from Vulgar Latin *capum, from Latin caput "head," also "leader, chief person; summit; capital city" (from PIE root *kaput- (https://www.etymonline.com/word/*kaput-?ref=etymonline_crossreference) "head"). Meaning "head of a clan" is from 1570s; later extended to headmen of Native American tribes (by 1713; William Penn, 1680s, called them kings). Commander-in-chief is attested from 1660s.

As the head of the Indian tribes and Clans were normally male and French leaders as in Kings were always Male, surely by using that title she is in herself failing to be Diverse!


https://www.etymonline.com/word/chief

[Blue_Circle]

I had every sympathy with women who object to everything, every-time , everywhere , whether appropriate or not. Until I walked away of course. Bliss.
So you've yet to meet a man who objects to everything, every time, everywhere? Lucky you..

[Training Risky]

That's where you're wrong. If you were a major country (let's say the USA) facing a hypothetical massive shortage in a critical aviation role (let's say pilots) then the ability to recruit talent from all walks of life might be seen as vital.

If we in the UK were to have an underperforming recruitment organisation (hypothetically of course) can you not agree that the ability to recruit sufficient bums on seats of whatever gender or background might be vital to our ability to fulfil whatever role we choose for our defence organisation.

The military is an increasingly unattractive option in career terms and anything that we can do to broaden appeal gets my vote, notwithstanding the article that the OP pointed out which is probably (let's face it) a hatchet job by a rag.
If you seriously think that gendered rank terminology may deter some young budding pilot from applying...then your priorities may need readjusting. Try shuffling some of the following to the top of your list: pay, food, accommodation, location, mission, military covenant, pension, etc, etc...

Maybe that young person may find military life is not for them, if pronouns and gendered language are at the top of THEIR list.

And the Mail may be a bit of a rag, but at least they are shining a light on chaff like this. I don't see the Grauniad doing so.

[LOMCEVAK]

There is an apocryphal story that when homosexuality was first accepted in the armed forces a senior naval officer was asked at a press conference how he felt about this change in policy. Allegedly, his response was "Fine, as long as they don't make it compulsory"!

[treadigraph]

Any Mancunians in the house?

[cattletruck]

Bring back the veggie patch.

Many years ago I used to deal a lot with a big national telecommunications company. Over the years I eventually found out why sometimes things would get done and other times things would take forever - they had an ecosystem within their organisation called the "veggie patch" where all the not-so-useful and not-so-effective people would be sent. Best of all it was already brimming with diversity.

I've since concluded every big organisation needs a veggie patch. It also ticks a box.

[Barksdale Boy]

LOMCEVAK

The old ones are always the best.
On the other hand, as he was a fish head, I'm surprised he didn't say 'What's new?".

[Fitter2]

The MoD told the publication: 'We are committed to creating a welcoming and inclusive environment.'

I would rather they were committed to creating a seriously unwelcoming and exclusive environment where our enemies are concerned.

I am reminded of the tale during the 39-45 unpleasantness when a bowler hatted gent walking down Whitehall was asked 'Which side is the War Office on?', and replied 'Ours, I hope.'

I somehow managed in 9 years of service to avoid my name appearing on a Form 252. My language at the time, if overheard nowadays would clearly have resulted in a plethora. Eheu fugaces labuntur anni

[Bob Viking]

It doesn’t take much to get you lot all riled up does it?!

I think the outrage has gone on long enough.

I’m a serving Officer and it doesn’t bother me one bit. I agree it’s not the best way to spend the money (it may be pro rata and her work may be done in a few months). If it makes a few people happy then so be it. It will not change our fighting effectiveness for the worse so, for the sake of your blood pressure just let it slide and find something else to twist your knickers.

BV

[Toadstool]

It doesn’t take much to get you lot all riled up does it?!

I think the outrage has gone on long enough.

I’m a serving Officer and it doesn’t bother me one bit. I agree it’s not the best way to spend the money (it may be pro rata and her work may be done in a few months). If it makes a few people happy then so be it. It will not change our fighting effectiveness for the worse so, for the sake of your blood pressure just let it slide and find something else to twist your knickers.

BV

I agree Bob. I’m aircrew and have been in just short of 35 years. Things have changed for the better but what definitely hasn’t changed is our ethos.

Weirdly, as the RAF got more “woke” I and my colleagues ended up deploying on more and more operations.

A damn sight more fighting-focused than the Cold War days, of which I was also a part.

But hey, what do I know.

[SASless]

PBA Target....perhaps the alternative strategy being utilized by the RAF is shrinking the force size to equalize the shortage of recruits rather than growing the numbers of recruits to meet the existing force structure.

[T28B]

Rule number one, no poofters.

( am I still allowed to quote from a the sketch on Monty Python where this first appeared many decades ago)
Yes, of course. :ok:

[PPRuNeUser0211]

PBA Target....perhaps the alternative strategy being utilized by the RAF is shrinking the force size to equalize the shortage of recruits rather than growing the numbers of recruits to meet the existing force structure.
I mean, the recent review mad a big deal about army cuts not being cuts because the army hasn't been that size for a decade, so you're not wrong sasless. Does seem to be perhaps not quite the right approach however, although eventually the UK military will trend to a single mainframe AI with no personnel. If we're lucky we'll have some drones to go with the AI!

[ORAC]

Originally Posted by Thaihawk View Post (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/640771-mod-diversity-chief-post11054844.html#post11054844)
Rule number one, no poofters.

( am I still allowed to quote from a the sketch on Monty Python where this first appeared many decades ago)


https://youtu.be/sxhaunU2AxY

[LOMCEVAK]

It doesn’t take much to get you lot all riled up does it?!

I think the outrage has gone on long enough.

I’m a serving Officer and it doesn’t bother me one bit. I agree it’s not the best way to spend the money (it may be pro rata and her work may be done in a few months). If it makes a few people happy then so be it. It will not change our fighting effectiveness for the worse so, for the sake of your blood pressure just let it slide and find something else to twist your knickers.

BV
Bob,
I am sure that you can see that there is also humour running through this thread. 'Back in the day' there were some behaviours that were inappropriate and out of order but some of what was said that today would be verboten was intended in good humour and was accepted as such. What we must never lose sight of is that we must always be able to criticise justifiably any poor performance and not be threatened with action due to the individual being from a 'diverse' background; I have seen this happen. The bottom line is that everyone deserves due respect and appropriate and fair interaction with others, irrespective of any 'group' within which they fall.

To quote from one of the greatest influences upon the English language, Monty Python's 'Life of Brian': "It's not so much the ability to have babies, Reg, it's the right to have babies"

[NutLoose]

It doesn’t take much to get you lot all riled up does it?!

I think the outrage has gone on long enough.

I’m a serving Officer and it doesn’t bother me one bit. I agree it’s not the best way to spend the money (it may be pro rata and her work may be done in a few months). If it makes a few people happy then so be it. It will not change our fighting effectiveness for the worse so, for the sake of your blood pressure just let it slide and find something else to twist your knickers.

BV


Y-Fronts are also available upon request.

[Bob Viking]

You're right. I agree that we shouldn't try to put a stop to the humour that has been the glue that holds us all together.

I suspect, though, that this review will come and go and life will carry on which is why I, for one, will not waste any more time worrying about it.

BV

[downsizer]

Every time literally anything changes in the RAF:

Serving personnel: ok whatever

Veterans (who are 100% unaffected): THIS IS AN OUTRAGE THE END OF THE RAF WAY TOO PC NOW AINT MY RAF.

[LOMCEVAK]

I wonder if the MOD Diversity Chief has been pointed towards this thread and other social media?

[NutLoose]

Every time literally anything changes in the RAF:

Serving personnel: ok whatever

Veterans (who are 100% unaffected): THIS IS AN OUTRAGE THE END OF THE RAF WAY TOO PC NOW AINT MY RAF.

It’s not the fact it’s being changed, but the hidden costs involved, every single document, form, label that refers to the old ranks will need to be replaced, money that could be spent elsewhere on the basic infrastructure, at Cosford I couldn’t believe the state of the hangar roofs where the hangar would flood when it rained.

[SASless]

Nutty.....dear boy....such antiquated thinking and backwards priorities you have....you mean like spend money upon training and readiness....pay raises....all that kind of fluff?

[MPN11]

We must adapt as we advance to those sunlit uplands ... umm ... personlit uplands.

Trailing shredded ££££ as we march together, of course.

[NutLoose]

Nutty.....dear boy....such antiquated thinking and backwards priorities you have....you mean like spend money upon training and readiness....pay raises....all that kind of fluff?

Damn, I now feel guilty about thinking of selfishly blowing the budget on sensible items to the actual benefit of those serving when I should have been thinking all along of squandering it on frivolous items that will no doubt be changed again 12 months down the line.

[Finningley Boy]

It doesn’t take much to get you lot all riled up does it?!

I think the outrage has gone on long enough.

I’m a serving Officer and it doesn’t bother me one bit. I agree it’s not the best way to spend the money (it may be pro rata and her work may be done in a few months). If it makes a few people happy then so be it. It will not change our fighting effectiveness for the worse so, for the sake of your blood pressure just let it slide and find something else to twist your knickers.

BV
Bob, The question should be; is a diversity chief essential to the operational effectiveness of the armed forces? Just what kind of improvement for the greater good does this lady bring? Does it help present the armed forces in a more desirable image even? That is to say, does it sharpen HM Forces credibility internationally? The answer depends on who you ask I suppose. It might get a favourable reception among the readership of the Guardian/Observer, then again, these are the people who find the greatest difficult understanding why we have a standing air force anyway. This lady's appointment is pure politics. If the term airman is banned, for example, how are they going to enforce it? Threaten disciplinary action for accidentally uttering it? Then again it might just be matter of generational perceptions after all.

FB

[ninja-lewis]

Well , we can change Aircraftsman to Aircraftswomen if it makes you happy but its not the point.
Banging on about this sort of stuff in a military whose sole purpose is the use of lethal force to maintain security and further vital national interests conveys the impression of a lack of seriousness.
Lord save us if there is a serious hot conflict.
I doubt that Putin or Xi Jinping take the threat of concerted military response from the West seriously at all.
Maybe just fold the whole thing up and accept that China is the future. Presumably anyone serious about maintaining security and furthering vital national interests through the use of lethal force will also not give a damn if changes are made. Or should Putin and Xi Jinping take ranting online about "woke politics" as evidence that the West can still mount a concerted military response?

[Photoplanet]

So looking at the RAF structure the only real contentious ones are AC, LAC and SAC, as we already have aircrew, simply change them to Groundcrew, Leading Groundcrew and Senior Groundcrew, it’s neutral and differentiates rolls too.

Where do I pick up my third share of £110000?

I do wonder if “she” (am I allowed to say that) will go after engineering terms like male and female connectors that are a simple and accurate way to describe fittings that make sense when when translating from the written word to the physical.
Well, as Samantha Desforges is an accountant by profession, she prob hasn't got a clue that there are M/F connectors...

[Photoplanet]

Bob, The question should be; is a diversity chief essential to the operational effectiveness of the armed forces? Just what kind of improvement for the greater good does this lady bring? Does it help present the armed forces in a more desirable image even? That is to say, does it sharpen HM Forces credibility internationally? The answer depends on who you ask I suppose. It might get a favourable reception among the readership of the Guardian/Observer, then again, these are the people who find the greatest difficult understanding why we have a standing air force anyway. This lady's appointment is pure politics. If the term airman is banned, for example, how are they going to enforce it? Threaten disciplinary action for accidentally uttering it? Then again it might just be matter of generational perceptions after all.

FB
Prior to her current role as MoD Director of Diversity / Inclusion, she was an accountant in charge of Fraud Defence.... I believe the new role was created for her, and so she is now effectively making a £100k living from what is actually a lifestyle choice formed into a job description.

[Photoplanet]

So looking at the RAF structure the only real contentious ones are AC, LAC and SAC, as we already have aircrew, simply change them to Groundcrew, Leading Groundcrew and Senior Groundcrew, it’s neutral and differentiates rolls too.

Where do I pick up my third share of £110000?

I do wonder if “she” (am I allowed to say that) will go after engineering terms like male and female connectors that are a simple and accurate way to describe fittings that make sense when when translating from the written word to the physical.
Is 'Loadmaster' contentious...? It denotes being in charge of the load 'master'..... And possibly competence in trade 'mastery'... But it's still a little bit 'male'.....

[Lookleft]

What about all those binary methods of transferring fuel from one aircraft to another? That will have to go because the non-binary members of the defense force will feel threatened by its patriarchal associations. Likewise for the big guns of the army and those phallic displays of the tanks with their euphemistically described "main armament". If the armed forces of the West have to worry about and pander to the feelings of a minority of personnel then the Red forces have already won.

[Photoplanet]

I'd be interested to know, out of the long list of posters above, how many would sign up to a job title with an overtly female title with no male equivalent. How many male rearcrew would have signed up to be a "Crewlady" or techies to be a "Senior Aircraftswoman (Tech)" if there was no male equivalent?
"Midwife"... There are many male 'midwives' in the NHS.
What about 'Aircraft Husbandry'?

[Finningley Boy]

Presumably anyone serious about maintaining security and furthering vital national interests through the use of lethal force will also not give a damn if changes are made. Or should Putin and Xi Jinping take ranting online about "woke politics" as evidence that the West can still mount a concerted military response?

How do you imagine Putin and Jinping would feel about the notion of such micro concerns about military ranks and titles in their outfits? How would Putin respond if say some one demanding his government pay him or her (apologies for any unintended offence taken!) the equivalent of £110,000 in Roubles, to recommend removal of the title Commissar? And also complain about just how welcoming the Red Army are toward the LGBTQI etc community? Given Putin's long standing record on the latter I'm sure he'll be delighted to cooperate.:ok:

FB

[SASless]

Didn't you Lot go though at least a couple of times before but for different reasons....like a shortage of errrrr.....Man Power?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_Auxiliary_Air_Force

[4everAD]

I have 'guys' in a SLAM block who haven't had hot water for 14 months, I'm a sure they'll appreciate the money being spent on this Zsar and her efforts (I know the 2 budgets are separate but perception is everything).

[Capt Scribble]

£100k, thats just the start and the first year. Her employment costs and package make it a far greater sum. And, there will be staff. All for something that could be done by a holding officer in a week. Cultural marxism is introduced to destroy tradition, because the post hasnt been created just to change a few ranks.

[ORAC]

She’s an MOD civil servant, so her wages and benefits will be paid from the wages budget whatever happens.

The MOD has had statutory diversity programmes since 2008 under Labour and there’s a relevant JSP (887)

http://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2016-0068/20141217_JSP_887_version_for_publication__3__PQ00604.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/907901/20180806-MOD_DI_Plan_A4_v14_Final-U.pdf

Apart from a bit of publicity I really don’t understand what has got so many retirees upset…

[TukwillaFlyboy]

She’s an MOD civil servant, so her wages and benefits will be paid from the wages budget whatever happens.

The MOD has had statutory diversity programmes since 2008 under Labour and there’s a relevant JSP (887)

http://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2016-0068/20141217_JSP_887_version_for_publication__3__PQ00604.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/907901/20180806-MOD_DI_Plan_A4_v14_Final-U.pdf

Apart from a bit of publicity I really don’t understand what has got so many retirees upset…

Yeah , and that is exactly the sort of attitude that drives non-Public Servants crazy.
Its why I quit the Department of Defence and went flying.
Best decision I ever made.

[9BIT]

The Royal Australian Air Force has announced it is replacing the term “airmen” with “aviators” as its marks a century since its establishment.

Chief of Air Force Air Marshal Mel Hupfeld announced the change at a private dinner of past and present RAAF members in April Li at a 100th anniversary event.

[Bob Viking]

With all the possible words they could have chosen they went with one that basically makes no sense.

Dictionary definition of aviator: the operator or pilot of an aircraft and especially an airplane.

So the fresh faced young clerk at HQ will be called an aviator?! Brilliant!

I don’t really mind changing the titles of people to avoid offense but at least choose something that is logical.

BV

[teeteringhead]

So the fresh faced young clerk at HQ will be called an aviator?! Brilliant! Oh come on Bob, we've had Pilot Officers and Flying Officers of both sexes/genders (other sexes/genders are available!) who never got out of an SHQ office, so why the problem?

However, [Pedant Mode ON] "aviator" implies male, the female of course is an "aviatrix"!! And the term Airman might suggest one who flies................ kind of the equivalent of soldier or sailor......

[London Eye]

With all the possible words they could have chosen they went with one that basically makes no sense.

Dictionary definition of aviator: the operator or pilot of an aircraft and especially an airplane.

So the fresh faced young clerk at HQ will be called an aviator?! Brilliant!

I don’t really mind changing the titles of people to avoid offense but at least choose something that is logical.

BV

Go on then Bob, what is a more “logical” choice?

[Bob Viking]

Give me £100,000 and I’ll gladly have a think for you.

BV

[London Eye]

😂😂. I am sure that you would be good value at that but I think you are needed where you are!

I know that many have tried to think of a ‘better’ title than aviator but it is easier to dislike this choice than think of a better one! ‘Soldiers’ and ‘sailors’ are both accepted without thought because we have used them for so long. Like it or not, and many on here clearly do not, many serving today dislike the collective term ‘airmen’.

[ORAC]

Jockey :cool: :cool:

Ungendered and then you can have Desk Jockeys, Jet Jockeys, Tech Jockeys….

[Haraka]

Jockey :cool: :cool:

Ungendered and then you can have Desk Jockeys, Jet Jockeys, Tech Jockeys…. Sock Jockeys etc.

[Toadstool]

I’ll wait to see what they decide, shrug my shoulders and continue to operate and fly.

It makes no difference to what they call me, it changes my job not a bit.

As long as the job gets done, which it still does and will, I’m good. Who knew that people with beards, LBTQ+ Personnel and those that like to be called “ they” still do everything that their predecessors did.

They’re just happier doing it.

[NutLoose]

I don't know Pan Pan Pan might go as that infers a male.. :)

[Haraka]

So what's wrong with just "belting up" and getting on with the job at hand.?

[NutLoose]

My dear chap, or chapess, neither a chap nor chapess, a transiting chap or chapess, an ex chap or chapess, haven't you heard, the lovies are running the world now, and it's time we woke up to that fact.

[skua]

I originally posted this in the Air Cadets thread, but Haraka reckons it deserves a mention here:

CAS gave a state of the nation talk for the Royal Aeronautical Soc last night. Included: a net zero Air Force - tick; swarming drones - tick; space command - tick, tick; getting quickly to 40% of recruits being female - tick; more % from ethnic communities and disadvantaged backgrounds - tick.

But on reinvigorating the Air Cadet movement (which did a very good job of bringing in youths from both sexes, and all social backgrounds) - not a word.

[sangiovese.]

My dear chap, or chapess, neither a chap nor chapess, a transiting chap or chapess, an ex chap or chapess, haven't you heard, the lovies are running the world now, and it's time we woke up to that fact.

Transition altitude and level are also being renamed to altimeter changing zone too…….Can’t say transition anymore :-)

[Davef68]

I expect the first rank she will object to is "seaman."


Already gone - ABs are now Able Rates. Midshipman is probably the only 'offending' rank in the RN these days - so just replace it with 'Ensign' to fit in with USN practice and we're good to go!. And other than the aforementioned 'aircraftsman' and 'rifleman/signalman' ranks,. there's not a lot else so her review should be over by tea time.

[NutLoose]

Just as well we disbanded the FANY's, imagine the uproar they would cause.

[Haraka]

Not forgetting the Queen Bee at a Station Commander's meeting in the 60's regarding temporary hutted WRAF toilets.

"You must understand that my girls all require a permanent erection"

Allegedly.

[VigilantPilot]

I've also heard the term NOTAM causing serious contemplation and head scratching amongst those that focus on all things gender. Obviously it comes from Notice to Airmen. Even though its an acronym that has pretty much become a word in its own right, it has unacceptable gender specific history/connotations.

[diginagain]

Just as well we disbanded the FANY's, imagine the uproar they would cause.
Oh no we didn't...

https://www.fany.org.uk/

[MPN11]

Ha! DWRAF (or was it DDWRAF?) visited RAF Stanley in ‘83, reviewing the suitability for WRAF deployments. I escorted her to our Tactical AR1 site in the rocks on the north side of the airfield ... through the mud. “Where are your ablution facilities here?” she enquired. One of my FS controllers answered ... “You’re standing on them, Ma’am.” I don’t know if Stanley ever got WRAF staff.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1516x1437/8a26f981_00fa_4578_af54_e330407fb2f3_285e7b9a0f3baf54f8c6c0d f60c57a7dc818f348.jpeg

[Haraka]

Don't tell me.
First of all the demands to deploy with Harrier Force in the field in RAFG ( to do what exactly?)
Followed by a stream of conditions to build facilities (in the field) to separate the girls from the boys.

,

[NutLoose]

Don't tell me.
First of all the demands to deploy with Harrier Force in the field in RAFG ( to do what exactly?)
Followed by a stream of conditions to build facilities (in the field) to separate the girls from the boys.

,

Surely that is part of the problem, having male and female accommodation. To integrate fully you need mixed accommodation, you can change the names of everything to be all inclusive, but until you go fully intergrated you’re just pissing around the edges. I don’t book into a hotel and get sent to a male only building, so why have any difference..

https://partner.sciencenorway.no/forskningno-gender-gender-differences/unisex-rooms-in-the-army-take-emphasis-off-gender/1398746

[Wensleydale]

Ha! DWRAF (or was it DDWRAF?) visited RAF Stanley in ‘83, reviewing the suitability for WRAF deployments. I escorted her to our Tactical AR1 site in the rocks on the north side of the airfield ... through the mud. “Where are your ablution facilities here?” she enquired. One of my FS controllers answered ... “You’re standing on them, Ma’am.” I don’t know if Stanley ever got WRAF staff.


They arrived at Stanley in around '85 I believe. Up 'til then, everything went swimmingly. Bring a Boss nights in the JRM next to the Flotel were a good way of meeting up with the lads who you didn't meet at work every day and often broke the ice. After the girls arrived, they set up little friendships with the lads, and at one BaB night, a JO was chatting amiably with one of the WRAFs on his section. Unfortunately, a young stud thought that this was someone moving in on his girlfriend and attacked him with a bottle. The aftermath? BaB evenings were banned and it became a them and us. On another occasion, one of the WRAFs who was circulating through airmen dumped her current "boyfriend" who subsequently got very drunk and smashed the windows of several Land Rovers parked outside the Flotel. There were lots of examples: the mobile Met Forecasters stated that the Christmas of '85 was the bleakest that they had. Rather than be invited to parties, they found that all the WRAFs had been invited instead, and with number limits being enforced then the Met Men were excluded. At this time, I tried to book an Eric to take one of my shifts on their 4 day mid-tour R&R to a farm on West Falkland. I could not get one, because the Erics were busy ferrying WRAFs to and from the various parties at the outposts and radar sites. (The chaps used one of their annual travel warrants to go via FIGAS). I could go on, but time and space prevents me from mentioning all of the problems that having just 35 WRAFs at Stanley on a camp of around 700 men caused after things had run smoothly for a couple of years.

[ORAC]

Amazing.

I was Ops 1 at station operations RAF Stanley June to October 1985, and your description bears no resemblance to what I remember.

(I was also station Flight Safety Officer and at the same time we had the mid-air between the C-130 and Sea King, but that’s a different story)…

[SASless]

Separate quarters ....now hold on fellas....that is not "woke" at all.

Then too....we. have to have a score card to identify the different players by uniform....male, female, male identifying as female, female identifying as male, either identifying as neither, Black, White, Tan, Brown...Purple....how far do you go in dividing us all into various groupings these days and that leaves out the Religious followings or not to boot.

[Specaircrew]

As a retiree my opinion is obviously irrelevant but I could have saved the MOD a few quid by suggesting that we adopt the tried and tested non gender specific titles of 'Aircrew' for the flyers and 'Blunties' for everyone else except engineers who would be called 'Techies'? Obviously anyone who failed to make the grade in any of those trades would still be called 'Movers'.

[Bob Viking]

That is the first sensible post on this thread. Bravo.

BV

[ORAC]

As a retiree my opinion is obviously irrelevant but I could have saved the MOD a few quid by suggesting that we adopt the tried and tested non gender specific titles of 'Aircrew' for the flyers and 'Blunties' for everyone else except engineers who would be called 'Techies'? Obviously anyone who failed to make the grade in any of those trades would still be called 'Movers'.
Don’t forget the ‘Scopies”….

[Fatjoff]

Jockey :cool: :cool:

Ungendered and then you can have Desk Jockeys, Jet Jockeys, Tech Jockeys….
Scope jockey. I like it. Let's do it!

[SASless]

"REMF's"....not "Movers".

[Finningley Boy]

Don’t forget the ‘Scopies”….
Hear hear!:ok:

FB

[Jack D]

Nick 1,

So you think that the lack of the ability to discriminate, be rude, objectify and suppress will somehow "extinguish" mankind?

Good old pr00ne always can be relied on for virtue signaling ...

[NutLoose]

So much for Google’s head of diversity.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57342967

[SASless]

Google sure took a stand there didn't they...removed from the "Diversity Team"....not removed from Employment...and no mention of who did the vetting of that clown and what became of their employment.

"I apologize!".....oh my but that is rich!

Google should go stand in the corner with a pointy. hat on top of its Head.

[Airbubba]

MEMORANDUM FOR SENIOR PENTAGON LEADERSHIP COMMANDERS OF THE COMBATANT COMMANDS DEFENSE AGENCY AND DOD FIELD ACTIVITY DIRECTORS

SUBJECT: Promoting and Protecting the Human Rights of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer, and lntersex Persons Around the World

On February 4, 2021 , the President issued a memorandum (TAB A) directing all U.S. departments and agencies that engage abroad or are involved in foreign aid, assistance, and development programs to undertake a number of actions related to promoting and protecting the human rights of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer, and lntersex (LGBTQI+) persons. The DoD is defined in the Presidential Memorandum as both an agency engaged abroad and an agency involved in foreign aid, assistance, and development programs.

In accordance with the Presidential Memorandum, it is the policy of the DoD to pursue an end to violence and discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, or sex characteristics, and DoD will lead by example in the cause of advancing the human rights of LGBTQI+ persons around the world. To effect this policy and as directed in the Presidential Memorandum, as consistent with applicable law and within their responsibilities, DoD Components shall:

• Strengthen existing efforts to combat the crimjnalization by foreign governments of LGBTQI+ status or conduct and expand efforts to combat discrimination, homophobia, transphobia, and intolerance on the basis of LGBTQI+ status or conduct.

• Expand ongoing efforts to ensure regular DoD engagement with governments, citizens, civil society, and the private sector to promote respect for the human rights of LGBTQI+ persons and combat discrimination.

• Consider the impact of programs funded by DoD on human rights, including the rights of LGBTQI+ persons, when making funding decisions.

• Strengthen the work DoD has done and initiate additional efforts with other nations, bilaterally and within multilateral fora and international organizations, to: counter discrimination on the basis of LGBTQI+ status or conduct; broaden the number of countries willing to support and defend the human rights of LGBTQI+ persons; strengthen the role, including in multilateral fora, of civil society advocates on behalf of the human rights of LGBTQI+ persons; and strengthen the policies and programming of multilateral institutions, including with respect to protecting vulnerable LGBTQI+ refugees and asylum seekers.

Promoting and Protecting the Human Rights of LGBTQI+ Persons Around the World (airforcemag.com) (https://www.airforcemag.com/app/uploads/2021/03/PROMOTING-AND-PROTECTING-THE-HUMAN-RIGHTS-OF-LGBTQI-PERSONS-AROUND-THE-WORLD.pdf)

[SASless]

One person's opinion.....if you have to use descriptive terms, hypenation, and labels....you are the problem.

If we stuck to People, Persons, Justice, Equality, Respect....and terms like that....we would all be better served.

Example....let's omit Racial Justice and stick to the simple notion of Justice...which applies to each and every one of us.

Or....let's stick to "Lives Matter" or even "All Lives Matter"....which oddly enough covers us all...everyone of us.

[LOMCEVAK]

One person's opinion.....if you have to use descriptive terms, hypenation, and labels....you are the problem.

If we stuck to People, Persons, Justice, Equality, Respect....and terms like that....we would all be better served.

Example....let's omit Racial Justice and stick to the simple notion of Justice...which applies to each and every one of us.

Or....let's stick to "Lives Matter" or even "All Lives Matter"....which oddly enough covers us all...everyone of us.

Now that is the best post so far on this thread and will be hard to beat! Get's my vote.

[NutLoose]

Correct, listing individual "life style choices" for want of better words, you are defining them as something other than the norm, it should simply have included everyone in the military. In a similiar way I mentioned accomodation and the fact it should be dual sex, the Norgies have tried it and it works, see the link

https://partner.sciencenorway.no/forskningno-gender-gender-differences/unisex-rooms-in-the-army-take-emphasis-off-gender/1398746

I remember reading that in the UK the SLAM accomodation for the Army was arranged around 6ish beds to a room, to foster a close relationship amongst a squad, surely if you have females in that squad they too should be included.

[kaikohe76]

As this idea & master plan seems to affect mainly the UK military, is it possibly the time for some comments & action from the Chief of the Defense Staff & his Senior Officers. Perhaps a quiet, or not so word in a Ministers ear might help.

[Asturias56]

To say what? That the Armed Forces want to run their own social policy? They're supposed to reflect society , not be seperate from it.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

I see that the newly painted display Typhoon is referred to as "Blackjack".

Taking bets now as to how long it takes before someone takes offence and it has to be renamed.
Post suggestions for alternates below...

[kaikohe76]

It`s a generation thing I would think, we have to move with the times. That said, sometimes that makes doing the job that much more difficult, when priorities become less distinct.

[NutLoose]

I see that the newly painted display Typhoon is referred to as "Blackjack".

Taking bets now as to how long it takes before someone takes offence and it has to be renamed.
Post suggestions for alternates below...

it’s already been kicked off Coningsby ;) it’s weekending at EGNX as it has a show to do and the RAF is closed on the weekend, but don’t tell the Russians :E it even brought a friend along as a spare.

[Toadstool]

It`s a generation thing I would think, we have to move with the times. That said, sometimes that makes doing the job that much more difficult, when priorities become less distinct.

Dont worry, as someone who is currently serving, I can still distinguish what are my priorities. As can my colleagues.

[Specaircrew]

Promoting and Protecting the Human Rights of LGBTQI+ Persons Around the World (airforcemag.com) (https://www.airforcemag.com/app/uploads/2021/03/PROMOTING-AND-PROTECTING-THE-HUMAN-RIGHTS-OF-LGBTQI-PERSONS-AROUND-THE-WORLD.pdf)
Being a bit of a Dinosaur I obviously need educating, I'd got my head round the Lettuce, Gherkin, Bacon and Tomato bit of the acronym but surely using the word 'Queer' causes mass hysteria in HR departments and prompts letters from 'Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells' to The Guardian? I get the 'Intersex' bit though because unless we're celibate we're all into sex aren't we..............I'll get my coat:)

[NutLoose]

And of course..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-57358762

[Lookleft]

Whats the difference between a skirt and a kilt? Scotspersons have been going to war for centuries dressed in non-binary clothing.

[TukwillaFlyboy]

There is a level of absurdity to this debate that I am having trouble coming to grips with.
I am aware that some serving Officers have commented and are generally supportive.
I respect that.
But here in Australia the 900 lb gorilla is China.
And they don’t give a sh#t what the rest of the world thinks.
They are restoring themselves to what they see as their rightful place in the world after 200 years of humiliation.
The impression that these sort of debates leave is simply a lack of seriousness.
Perhaps what we used to call “The West” should concede that its time is past.
The future belongs to China.

[mgahan]

What TWFlyboy said.. Recently the Australian Minister responsible for Defiance told the Chiefs to tell the boys and giirls to get on with the business of preparing for defending the nation and drop the fancy dress morning teas. What a novel idea!!

Perhaps this comment attributed to the Ruler of Dubai
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/464x960/uae_ruler_cff96cdf26235545b5119329a9b4d182f6b3da98.png
is relevant.

[NutLoose]

There is a level of absurdity to this debate that I am having trouble coming to grips with.
I am aware that some serving Officers have commented and are generally supportive.
I respect that.
But here in Australia the 900 lb gorilla is China.
And they don’t give a sh#t what the rest of the world thinks.
They are restoring themselves to what they see as their rightful place in the world after 200 years of humiliation.
The impression that these sort of debates leave is simply a lack of seriousness.
Perhaps what we used to call “The West” should concede that its time is past.
The future belongs to China.

China is doing this on the back of the cash the rest of the world pumps into it, and are reliant on the rest of the world to prop it up.

[Lookleft]

Perhaps what we used to call “The West” should concede that its time is past.
The future belongs to China.

Just like the future belonged to the1000 year Reich and the USSR. Both made the mistake of thinking that the "West" was just a decadent. hedonistic house of cards and that strong dictatorships could shape the world to their will. The funny thing is that the "West" is exactly that but if you threaten it with a dictatorial way of life then it will unite and bring its considerable forces against you. China is no different and the way it is going it will relearn the lessons of past totalitarian regimes.

[TukwillaFlyboy]

Just like the future belonged to the1000 year Reich and the USSR. Both made the mistake of thinking that the "West" was just a decadent. hedonistic house of cards and that strong dictatorships could shape the world to their will. The funny thing is that the "West" is exactly that but if you threaten it with a dictatorial way of life then it will unite and bring its considerable forces against you. China is no different and the way it is going it will relearn the lessons of past totalitarian regimes.

Nope.
The will to enforce Western values is gone.
Ask anybody under 30 about WW2 , the Great Leap Forward , Cold War etc. etc you will get a blank look.
Its finished.
Our place in the sun is time expired.
The Chinese have more purpose, endeavour and confidence in their place in the world.
Napoleon was right. When they rise they will shake the world.
Better get used to it.

[Asturias56]

"Ask anybody under 30 about WW2 , the Great Leap Forward , Cold War etc. etc you will get a blank look."

My mother always said the same thing - but admitted she's been totally wrong when the Falklands War took place...............

There is no challenge - or no challenge that the vast majority see - China has maybe 15 years before the rising number of old people become a real burden, their people consume "Western" products and values at an alarming rate - so much that their Govt continually tries to block Western Media. I don't see anyone in the west or the developing world desperately worshiping President Xi and the CPChina. You don't see refugees dreaming of living in China (except from the DRNK) - we've won without fighting (so far)

[LeftBlank]

Whilst the comments attributed to Sheikh Mohammed are relevant to this discussion, it seems likely (attributed to other sources) that he did not say this in one interview. The alleged quotes were put together on Facebook and then spread around the world on social media….a little bit like something else at the moment.

[SASless]

One interview or a dozen.....the question is he right or not?

Focus upon the issues he raised and not the irrelevant and frivolous that you did.

Is Western Society doomed to go the way of the Buffalo and Dinosaur?

[Ken Scott]

As for the Scottish schoolboys wearing skirts in protest at not being allowed to wear shorts in the hot weather we had the opposite problem when I was a boy, shorts were uniform all year round. Ok in the summer but could be a mite chilly in winter especially in the snow. Maybe we should have worn long skirts to keep our legs warm? Except that there was little tolerance for that kind of thing in those days!

[Easy Street]

What TWFlyboy said.. Recently the Australian Minister responsible for Defiance told the Chiefs to tell the boys and giirls to get on with the business of preparing for defending the nation and drop the fancy dress morning teas. What a novel idea!!.

Something I’ve noticed here in the UK is the gulf between the stances of the governing party and the civil service on this issue. The equalities minister and her deputy have made robust interventions against gender self-identification and the critical studies agenda, have scrapped ‘unconscious bias’ training as being unproven and possibly counterproductive, and are in the process of banning public agencies from subscribing to Stonewall’s employer scheme. Yet the upper echelons of the civil service are bought into the agenda to such a degree that there has been no visible change despite the political direction being clear. And senior military officers fall over themselves to impress the key senior civil servants due to their influence over appointments.

It is a performative nonsense at the moment. One 2* has gone so far as to mandate the use of personal pronouns in signature blocks, despite this being *against* Stonewall guidance as it could force closeted trans people to uncloset themselves before they’re ready. I think it will eventually need explicit ministerial direction to moderate the approach being taken across the whole of Whitehall. Even Tony Blair recently commented that he is increasingly unsure of what it is and isn’t OK to say any more. You can see a reckoning coming in the increasing media chatter about the proportion of young people going to university. On the face of it it’s about the utility of their qualifications versus their debt burden, but unspoken is the question of why the Conservatives would continue to push students into the tender care of an academic sector obsessed with critical studies and so make their electoral hurdle ever higher? Progressive complaints of a “culture war” are down to them being aggrieved that the other side has finally started to push back…

[SASless]

Progressive complaints of a “culture war” are down to them being aggrieved that the other side has finally started to push back…


So very true!

The wisdom of the Old Bull to the Young Bull as they stood on a hillside looking down on the herd of Cows seems lost on the Radical Left these days.

The are going to far....too fast....and that is going to be their un-doing.

[highflyer40]

Yes, it was bound to happen in these times - a review of the rank convention.

I'm sure she will never have to put her life on the line, but she will be comforted by knowing that the rank names are all politically correct when they are standing in the trenches.

To be fair though, it's not her fault that the role has been created, nor the salary it attracts, but there are probably more important things to target than rank names.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9634545/Ministry-Defences-new-110-000-year-diversity-chief-takes-aim-armed-forces-sexist-ranks.html

Sorry, but I don’t see the problem. Changing the names of the ranks to be inclusive is a problem how? Other than “tradition” which is a bigger problem than most things. Quite a few countries can do it. Corporal, private, sergeant etc…. It does seem it is a particularly British obsession to have male connotations for rank.

[LeftBlank]

One interview or a dozen.....the question is he right or not?

Focus upon the issues he raised and not the irrelevant and frivolous that you did.

Is Western Society doomed to go the way of the Buffalo and Dinosaur?

Ok, I’ll be a little more blunt for you. Online sources who check quotes and misinformation “allege” this conversation was made up by an attention seeking journalist. Is that frivolous enough for you?

[highflyer40]

Who says we are white, angry, old, and male, it’s woke statements like that which really gall ;)

I think you already proved it with your reply.

[Easy Street]

So very true!

The wisdom of the Old Bull to the Young Bull as they stood on a hillside looking down on the herd of Cows seems lost on the Radical Left these days.

The are going to far....too fast....and that is going to be their un-doing.

Indeed. They are going so far, so fast on the transgender matters (in particular) that “LGBTQIA2+ community” is increasingly divided over it. Not that it has really been a community since the 1990s anyway. Some of the most anti-“trans agenda” people I know are gay. They see activists as driven by politics rather than social justice, and among my serving colleagues they are amazed at the traction it gets with supposedly politically-neutral senior public servants. The opinion polls tell you how the public sees it…

[Countdown begins]

Lossiemouth has started to fall apart. We have blue suits taking their own to one side to stop all banter, including football team affiliation. The multi fleet looked to be on their arse on Friday, and all of this before this report is released.
The P8 fleet is seemingly having a hug a hoodie moment.

[BEagle]

LGBTQIA2

Well, I know what an MGB GT is and the FSO Polonez was sometimes known as the KGB GT - but is LGB GT a nickname for the Porsche GCayman?

Some Luftwaffe mates told me that one of their number owned a Cayman, of which he was very proud. It was some weeks before he noticed that someone had carefully amended the 'C' to a 'G'...

Such a shame that the traditional Hawaiian rainbow flag was hi-jacked by this bunch.....

[SASless]

Left Bank,

You might want to put a bit of boot onto the pedal and balance yourself a bit....social media fact checkers are your source of authority on this......come on Man....(as our illustrious Leader loves to say) pull the other one!

[Lookleft]

The Chinese have more purpose, endeavour and confidence in their place in the world.
Napoleon was right. When they rise they will shake the world.
Better get used to it.

Well there were plenty of apologists for Stalin and Hitler pre-1939 so its not surprising that someone enjoying life in the West is prepared to write it off in favour of yet another brutal regime. Its irrelevant whether the people under 30 know much about WW2 or the Long March. The politicians who make the decisions on defense spending and foreign policy certainly do have that knowledge and recognise what is coming down the line. The CCP have already demonstrated their own lack of knowledge of Western political culture with their punitive and farcical trade bans. No one is in the business of "paying tribute" to Chinese warlords or prostrating their Western values in front of a Chinese Emperor.

[Finningley Boy]

Well, I know what an MGB GT is and the FSO Polonez was sometimes known as the KGB GT - but is LGB GT a nickname for the Porsche GCayman?

Some Luftwaffe mates told me that one of their number owned a Cayman, of which he was very proud. It was some weeks before he noticed that someone had carefully amended the 'C' to a 'G'...

Such a shame that the traditional Hawaiian rainbow flag was hi-jacked by this bunch.....
BEagle,

Are you sure you're allowed to refer the LGBTIQ bunch as "this bunch" any longer?

FB:)

[SASless]

For sure....calling them "Munchers" is just not. on anymore.

[Easy Street]

Indeed. They are going so far, so fast on the transgender matters (in particular) that “LGBTQIA2+ community” is increasingly divided over it. Not that it has really been a community since the 1990s anyway. Some of the most anti-“trans agenda” people I know are gay.

If anyone doubts me on this, can I refer them to the BBC Radio 4 Today programme this morning from 0750-0800hrs, which can be replayed online. A complete and utter train wreck.

[NutLoose]

For sure....calling them "Munchers" is just not. on anymore.

Why? I do not object and I must admit I think I may be a male Lesbian, because whenever I see a pair I am drawn to joining in...

Ooops..... am I allowed to say that, 🤪

[NutLoose]

I just amazes me the money that must be getting wasted through the Country to simply pander to this, do not get me wrong, the locking up and castrating people chemically or otherwise that used to happen in the past is totally and utterly wrong, anyone should be able to live their lives and enjoy their sexuality free from any persecution, but to be seen to be PC this Country seems to have a built in tendency to go totally OTT.

[SASless]

Nutty....down Boy!

If you did let yourself go....the charge. would be Assault with a Dead Weapon!

[NutLoose]

Willie or won’t he, that is the question... :(

[Asturias56]

"but to be seen to be PC this Country seems to have a built in tendency to go totally OTT."

it's not only Diversity - its everything

Ask anyone how the UK used to gold-plate every Brussels directive - always far beyond what was originally intended. That's why there was often a perplexed reaction in the EU to some UK press stories - it was the British who extended the scope and the rules of their own volition........

[kaikohe76]

Thanks for your reply Toadstool, I`m with you all the way.

[Cyberhacker]

I'd be interested to know, out of the long list of posters above, how many would sign up to a job title with an overtly female title with no male equivalent. How many male rearcrew would have signed up to be a "Crewlady" or techies to be a "Senior Aircraftswoman (Tech)" if there was no male equivalent?
I offer Nurse - males are still nurses, despite the overtly female assumption

[NutLoose]

Midwife, is another, as is Vicar.

[[email protected]]

Some years ago, friends of mine had their mortgage application repeatedly returned because the Building Society claimed they had filled in the form incorrectly - their mistake? Putting the husband's occupation down as Nurse and the wife's down as Surveyor even though that was exactly the case.

[minigundiplomat]

Quick question,

with it being 2021 and the dawning of a new age of diversity, could a male identity as a female during a fitness test, achieve a pass at the lower standard and realise they actually identify as a male after all?

[Lookleft]

This is the dilemma facing woman's sports. If a man identifies as a woman what is to stop them cleaning up in say woman's tennis then deciding afterwards they didn't read their inner self correctly. Same with woman's football (of whatever style you prefer). The muscle mass of a man is still going to hurt in any physical contact no matter what the brain thinks.

[Toadstool]

Quick question,

with it being 2021 and the dawning of a new age of diversity, could a male identity as a female during a fitness test, achieve a pass at the lower standard and realise they actually identify as a male after all?

I will ask at my next fitness test in two years. Or maybe I will do the Rockport walk!

[gcal]

The article is from the Daily Fail and though I am sure it may be used for cat litter I certainly wouldn't.
For one horrible and unforgivable moment I hovered my mouse over the link.
If this role does exist then many of the comments on here explain why it is necessary.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

I offer Nurse - males are still nurses, despite the overtly female assumption
I'd beg to say that Nurse is not an overtly female title in the language sense, just that there is a strong association with females in the profession. Exactly the same problem that the majority of male dominated professions have had - say for instance "engineer" 50 years ago. That's more of an issue of changing perception, which is exactly why RAF recruiting ads have a higher proportion of female and ethnic minority servicefolk in, much to the horror of ppruners - because to a lot of those outside they perceive "Air Force Officer" as a white male job, in the same way that you've interpreted nurse as "female". Takes time to change this associations.

(Fwiw the Royal college of Nursing reports 10.8% of registered nurses as male).

[Lima Juliet]

On the plan to swindle the fitness test, sadly it won’t work. They are “Male” and “Female” standards.

The UK government defines sex as:

referring to the biological aspects of an individual as determined by their anatomy, which is produced by their chromosomes, hormones and their interactions

generally male or female

something that is assigned at birth


The UK government defines gender as:

a social construction relating to behaviours and attributes based on labels of masculinity and femininity; gender identity is a personal, internal perception of oneself and so the gender category someone identifies with may not match the sex they were assigned at birth

where an individual may see themselves as a man, a woman, as having no gender, or as having a non-binary gender – where people identify as somewhere on a spectrum between man and woman




So unless you are going to have your X and Y chromosomes fiddled with by some unknown science (you can’t currently change these), you are kind of stuck with what you have got!!! So the ‘sex change’ is really not a sex change at all - as you can have your male or female gonads removed, but you will still be technically male or female. If you choose to identify as a man or a woman, or whatever else, then you will still have to complete the fitness standard of the male or female - regardless of your gonad status!

[cattletruck]

So the term "gender" is now a social construct, who would have thought. Wouldn't referring to this desk bound MOD Chief as 'er indoors' be another social construct?

[[email protected]]

Maya Forstater lost her job for tweeting, quite correctly, that you can't change your biological sex no matter how much you want to identify as anything else - she has won her appeal though.

[Lima Juliet]

Maya Forstater lost her job for tweeting, quite correctly, that you can't change your biological sex no matter how much you want to identify as anything else - she has won her appeal though.

Rightly so. That quote above was from the ONS’s policy on the subject: https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/whatisthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21


Sex and gender are different concepts that are often used interchangeably. The UK government refers to sex as being biologically defined, and gender as a social construct that is an internal sense of self, whether an individual sees themselves as a man or a woman, or another gender identity. They encompass many different identities and may be non-binary (that is, not a man or a woman).

[212man]

If you choose to identify as a man or a woman, or whatever else, then you will still have to complete the fitness standard of the male or female - regardless of your gonad status!
It would seem several international sporting bodies disagree, including the IOC and IWF. Laurel Hubbard? Rachel McKinnon?

[Lima Juliet]

212man

Yes, and I think it’s wrong. Give them a chromosome check to decide which race they can compete in :ok:

Or remove sex type from sport all together.

[212man]

212man

Yes, and I think it’s wrong. Give them a chromosome check to decide which race they can compete in :ok:

Or remove sex type from sport all together.
I agree - wasn’t defending it. I used to be a county class 100/200m runner in my early teens, and well remember watching the women’s 100m final in the Commonwealth games around 1982. I was about 15 and couldn’t believe that if I’d been in the race I might have finished 5th!

[John Eacott]

I guess we won't have nicknames/callsigns any longer?

Frosty: an RAN helicopter driver who was of Japanese ancestry, hence a 'Nip in the air'

Thrush: a general term for an irritating twit

And so on: add your favourites here :ok:

[Training Risky]

The article is from the Daily Fail and though I am sure it may be used for cat litter I certainly wouldn't.
For one horrible and unforgivable moment I hovered my mouse over the link.
If this role does exist then many of the comments on here explain why it is necessary.
You may not like the Mail, but at least it is shining a light on mismanagement of public money and posts like this.

The comments here are merely people expressing a legitimate opinion. The fact you don't like what is being said is your problem, not ours.

[The Helpful Stacker]

I'd be interested to know, out of the long list of posters above, how many would sign up to a job title with an overtly female title with no male equivalent. How many male rearcrew would have signed up to be a "Crewlady" or techies to be a "Senior Aircraftswoman (Tech)" if there was no male equivalent?

If I were to push for promotion to a grade higher I'd be a Matron.

I can't see the NHS changing this title anytime soon

[tolip1]

I’ve served with blacks whites and every colour in between, gays, straight, transsexuals, and just generally confused sorts. All anybody cares about when the rounds are flying is can you do your job and not get everyone killed.

And what I find more offensive as a member of a fighting Service is that my Service cares more about my being in date for health & safety and D&I training than it does about the last time I fired a weapon. And just looking at her photo and reading her bio you get the impression she is one of nature’s perpetually offended who will find offence in everything but not actually question how such offence makes doing our job of defending the country easier or more effective.

Can you honestly not see the irony of you describing exactly how offended you get, and in the next breath complaining about someone getting offended too much?

[SASless]

Can you honestly not see the irony of you describing exactly how offended you get, and in the next breath complaining about someone getting offended too much?



The question is how does all this "woke" business improve combat effectiveness of a military force....not who is offended or triggered or has their knickers in a wad over the use of some pronoun or rank while addressing others.

Is this latest surrender to Political Correctness actually in any way going to make the RAF or any other military force better at achieving its reason for being.....that being defending the Nation in combat with an aggressor enemy.

I see all of this as being a huge distraction from that mission....the training it requires to be prepared......assets that would otherwise be available.....and worst of all....it brings division among the Troops as they all deal with this.

Anything that dulls the point of the Spear is bad for the Force holding that Spear.

[cynicalint]

Col. Jessop's rants were spot on. It was his ordering an illegal "Code Red" and trying to cover it up that was wrong. Current trends and attempts at equlity legislation could unfortunately, sooner or later, lead to such a situation where command cannot take remedial steps about a dysfunctional subordinate without breaking some Hate Law or Equality legislation. We need to differentiate between correct discipline and bullying and prevent hurt feelings from creating a non-functioning fighting force.

[highflyer40]

The question is how does all this "woke" business improve combat effectiveness of a military force....not who is offended or triggered or has their knickers in a wad over the use of some pronoun or rank while addressing others.

Is this latest surrender to Political Correctness actually in any way going to make the RAF or any other military force better at achieving its reason for being.....that being defending the Nation in combat with an aggressor enemy.

I see all of this as being a huge distraction from that mission....the training it requires to be prepared......assets that would otherwise be available.....and worst of all....it brings division among the Troops as they all deal with this.

Anything that dulls the point of the Spear is bad for the Force holding that Spear.

The days of defending a nation against an aggressive force are long past us, at least for first world nations. Economic war is much more practicable and successful, and you don’t need an army to defend from that.

Can you honestly even conceive of Russia or China invading the UK? Wouldn’t happen in a million years. Get rid of most of the 3 services and bolster the coast guard slightly to protect from smugglers.

[cynicalint]

The days of defending a nation against an aggressive force are long past us, at least for first world nations

They said exactly the same in 1938. Even earlier, - Si vis pacem, para bellum ( Publis Flavius Vegetius Renatus - 4th or 5th century AD),
The only thing that changes are the idiots that say there is no threat of war,. when the biggest threat to war is the attitude that no threat exists.

[highflyer40]

They said exactly the same in 1938. Even earlier, - Si vis pacem, para bellum ( Publis Flavius Vegetius Renatus - 4th or 5th century AD),
The only thing that changes are the idiots that say there is no threat of war,. when the biggest threat to war is the attitude that no threat exists.

There was no world economy in those eras as well. You can much easier and successfully conquer someone economically than militarily nowadays. With no need to occupy.

[cynicalint]

The Roman economy WAS the known world economy, but they still needed boots on the ground...

[Jacko3]

The days of defending a nation against an aggressive force are long past us, at least for first world nations. Economic war is much more practicable and successful, and you don’t need an army to defend from that.

Can you honestly even conceive of Russia or China invading the UK? Wouldn’t happen in a million years. Get rid of most of the 3 services and bolster the coast guard slightly to protect from smugglers.

what a totally ridiculas comment.

[highflyer40]

what a totally ridiculas comment.

Considering the number of the countries in the world that have little to no military it must be amazing to the boys club they they aren’t regularly invaded and occupied.

[cynicalint]

Wow! I thought I had drifted off thread, but this is in a different hemisphere!

[Jacko3]

Considering the number of the countries in the world that have little to no military it must be amazing to the boys club they they aren’t regularly invaded and occupied.


Such as…. Malta or Iceland shall we say? China’s interest there must be enormous! 🤦🏻‍♂️

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

The question is how does all this "woke" business improve combat effectiveness of a military force

Because “Diversity is Our Greatest Strength”! I’m not quite sure how, exactly, but it must be true as the powers-that-be keep repeating it.

Not that I’ve got any issue with diversity, just that I suspect a military force’s greatest strength would be something more like “excellence in training”, “superior equipment & tactics” or “overwhelming firepower”.

[SASless]

So....the UK does not need a military....and can get by with just a puffed up Coast Guard......how would that have played out in the Falklands?

Jacko....please do recall Iceland got invaded....by our side during WWII.

[Jacko3]

So....the UK does not need a military....and can get by with just a puffed up Coast Guard......how would that have played out in the Falklands?

Jacko....please do recall Iceland got invaded....by our side during WWII.


Quite correct, and they do have a current military. Perhaps they would have wished for a stronger military back then… Some here wouldn’t agree of course

[Toadstool]

The question is how does all this "woke" business improve combat effectiveness of a military force....not who is offended or triggered or has their knickers in a wad over the use of some pronoun or rank while addressing others.

Is this latest surrender to Political Correctness actually in any way going to make the RAF or any other military force better at achieving its reason for being.....that being defending the Nation in combat with an aggressor enemy.

I see all of this as being a huge distraction from that mission....the training it requires to be prepared......assets that would otherwise be available.....and worst of all....it brings division among the Troops as they all deal with this.

Anything that dulls the point of the Spear is bad for the Force holding that Spear.

Its not binary. You can have diversity and be an effective fighting force.

I remember when they got rid of females when they became pregnant, and didn’t allow homosexuality. This blunted effectiveness as we got rid of highly trained and skilled individuals. Guess what, when the rules changed, we got on with the job and nothing changed, apart from having a happier and more effective force.

Its laughable to see how triggered the old guard get at topics such as beards, LBTQ , “woke” etc and how much worse it is nowadays. The reality is that we are still as effective and have been so during the last few years of constant operations.

[Training Risky]

Its not binary. You can have diversity and be an effective fighting force.

I remember when they got rid of females when they became pregnant, and didn’t allow homosexuality. This blunted effectiveness as we got rid of highly trained and skilled individuals. Guess what, when the rules changed, we got on with the job and nothing changed, apart from having a happier and more effective force.

Its laughable to see how triggered the old guard get at topics such as beards, LBTQ , “woke” etc and how much worse it is nowadays. The reality is that we are still as effective and have been so during the last few years of constant operations.
Not so fast...it wasn't all good news. Those reforms let in a LOT of gay/feminist militant shop stewards who started taking anyone and everyone to a 'bullying arbitration panel' if anyone so much as looked sideways at their views/conduct. As someone who was a flt cdr up to 2015, it was a lot of HR hassle.

[Training Risky]

There was no world economy in those eras as well. You can much easier and successfully conquer someone economically than militarily nowadays. With no need to occupy.
Unbelievable!

Have you opened a newspaper over the last few years? Ever heard of the Crimea, Donetsk, Taiwan...NATO forward presence in the Baltics?

Please 'educate yourself' :ugh:

[SASless]

Toad,

You miss the point entirely.....it is not about Diversity....it is all about the dividing us up into the various contingents and offering differing treatment of each minority group.

We need to be teaching "Inclusiveness" not "Diversity"....and focus upon what bonds us together into an effective fighting force.

When Women (the kind that can bear children) you mention were infused into Combat Units.....in order to hold a counseling session of one of them.....it became necessary to have a Witness of the session to ensure there was no complaint of misconduct by the Counselor.

During Desert Storm....the US Military lost 1,500 Personnel due to pregnancies.....the equivalent of a full Battalion....BEFORE the first Round was fired in anger.

How does that improve unit cohesiveness?

In the US Military today....we are seeing the advocacy of Critical Race Theory (CRT) that teaches all Whites are Racist.....how is that helpful?

I was around when merely being a Homosexual was a mortal Sin that got you removed from the Military......and any homosexual conduct got you Court Martialed and removed from the Service..

No doubt t here were many such folks that served honorably without being known for their being Homosexuals.....which is exactly how it should be.....do the job and be judged upon your performance and service.

By creating all this noise about it.....only generates problems.

It is not the identity or membership in the various communities that matters.....and that is where we have to get back to....and forget all the other.

I repeat myself here.....Anything that detracts from the Combat Capability....the Combat Effectiveness.....the Unit Cohesion......must not be allowed to exist in the Military.

Social change in the United States has been led by the US Military beginning with ending Segregation in the late 1940's.

The policy was changed....the Military complied.....well ahead of the society from which its members were drawn.

The Military sets higher standards for itself than does society in general.

That is why the Military IS different than the Society it protects and why those Standards are different than the society it draws from.

[NutLoose]

This is who you need....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBuIGBCF9jc

[SASless]

Prior to McRaven's time....many of the same principles he cited in his speech were being taught by others in the military.....many being NCO's.....Sergeants.....the backbone of the Army, Marines, and Air Force.....and Chief Petty Officers in the Navy.

This amazing fellow's Life Story and accomplishments bear witness to what those principles mean in combat and in life in general.

I was blessed to have met him briefly.....and to know of what he did that final day in Vietnam that earned him the Medal of Honor made it all the more special.

His is not as polished a speech as McRaven....but I think he is just as inspiring just the same.

The message is the same.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oUtJxE4sjs

[Toadstool]

Toad,

You miss the point entirely.....it is not about Diversity....it is all about the dividing us up into the various contingents and offering differing treatment of each minority group.

I don’t think I do at all. In over 3 decades of being in the military, and still serving, I can tell you categorically it’s about the complete opposite.

We need to be teaching "Inclusiveness" not "Diversity"....and focus upon what bonds us together into an effective fighting force. The RAF teaches Diversity AND Inclusivity. It’s about understanding that we are diverse while trying to be inclusive.

When Women (the kind that can bear children) you mention were infused into Combat Units.....in order to hold a counseling session of one of them.....it became necessary to have a Witness of the session to ensure there was no complaint of misconduct by the Counselor. Not relevant today, in the RAF.

During Desert Storm....the US Military lost 1,500 Personnel due to pregnancies.....the equivalent of a full Battalion....BEFORE the first Round was fired in anger.

How does that improve unit cohesiveness? It doesn’t, and people do get pregnant nowadays in the RAF. Life goes on. What is your solution? Ban pregnancy? Ban women? Desert Storm was still won.

In the US Military today....we are seeing the advocacy of Critical Race Theory (CRT) that teaches all Whites are Racist.....how is that helpful? It’s not. Perhaps that’s a policy in your armed forces. Not in mine.

I was around when merely being a Homosexual was a mortal Sin that got you removed from the Military......and any homosexual conduct got you Court Martialed and removed from the Service.. So was I. Now I serve with gay people. They are just as effective. Times move on thankfully.

No doubt t here were many such folks that served honorably without being known for their being Homosexuals.....which is exactly how it should be.....do the job and be judged upon your performance and service. I agree. No one cares what anyone’s sexuality is, neither is it requested or talked about. It’s not relevant.

By creating all this noise about it.....only generates problems. This is where you miss the point. Given when I joined there were a lot of people who were racist, sexist and homophobic, which led to bullying and people leaving in droves or suicide, the fact that we talk about it now does help. Times move on.

It is not the identity or membership in the various communities that matters.....and that is where we have to get back to....and forget all the other.

I repeat myself here.....Anything that detracts from the Combat Capability....the Combat Effectiveness.....the Unit Cohesion......must not be allowed to exist in the Military. Bullying, cliques and excluding people most definitely detracts from Unit Cohesion. Something I saw in my earlier years. Is there evidence in the RAF today that points to a lack of combat effectiveness? Given my experience, no.

Social change in the United States has been led by the US Military beginning with ending Segregation in the late 1940's. Good.

The policy was changed....the Military complied.....well ahead of the society from which its members were drawn. Good.

The Military sets higher standards for itself than does society in general. Same.

That is why the Military IS different than the Society it protects and why those Standards are different than the society it draws from.. Again, it’s not binary. Being diverse and inclusive does not mean that the standards in the military are diminished. You may think that, but I have relevant experience now. I can assure you that standards are still at the same level as they were when I joined nearly 35 years ago.

I distinctly remember the same arguments as these in 2000 when gay people were allowed to serve. Guess what, we’ve been involved in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Sierra Leone, the GWOT and Iraq and Syria. I’ve neither seen nor heard of any cases whatsoever where Combat effectiveness was deemed to have lessened due to improved D&I.

[SASless]

Toad....to me it is about actions not identities.

That is where you and I see it differently I am thinking.

I care not about how one "identifies" but I do care about their conduct.....and prefer we foster an environment that focuses upon the positive, the standards and principles that foster a superior performance in combat.

Any conduct that is prejudicial to that is what must be dealt with no matter the cause, source, or motive.

In the past I said I object to the term "Racial Justice" as I believe in just plain ol' Justice.....which covers us all. Just as I object to "Black Lives Matter" as I believe "All Lives Matter" which again includes us all.

That is why I challenge so much of what is going on today.....as the very language used is creating division instead of what the stated goal is supposed to be.

Requiring me to sit through a series of classes and briefings where I am told I am a Racist based upon my skin color seems awfully wrong to me.

That is not going to make me want to embrace those teachings.

We can set out. our Principles and Standards without getting into hyphens and identifies.......by doing that I suggest we can focus upon what we really need to be doing.

Here is what my Army teaches every Soldier.....what else do we need to teach that is not covered in these few simple sentences?

A single Identity is used....."Soldier".

https://www.army.mil/values/index.html

[highflyer40]

Toad....to me it is about actions not identities.

That is where you and I see it differently I am thinking.

I care not about how one "identifies" but I do care about their conduct.....and prefer we foster an environment that focuses upon the positive, the standards and principles that foster a superior performance in combat.

Any conduct that is prejudicial to that is what must be dealt with no matter the cause, source, or motive.

In the past I said I object to the term "Racial Justice" as I believe in just plain ol' Justice.....which covers us all. Just as I object to "Black Lives Matter" as I believe "All Lives Matter" which again includes us all.

That is why I challenge so much of what is going on today.....as the very language used is creating division instead of what the stated goal is supposed to be.

Requiring me to sit through a series of classes and briefings where I am told I am a Racist based upon my skin color seems awfully wrong to me.

That is not going to make me want to embrace those teachings.

We can set out. our Principles and Standards without getting into hyphens and identifies.......by doing that I suggest we can focus upon what we really need to be doing.

Here is what my Army teaches every Soldier.....what else do we need to teach that is not covered in these few simple sentences?

A single Identity is used....."Soldier".

https://www.army.mil/values/index.html

Nice quote. But that was written by army PR. What goes on in the barracks is very much different. You may get nothing out of the classes and briefings.. good enough, some can’t change their ways. The majority I think just never realised what some words and actions had on others and to be made aware of it can help.

All lives do matter, but anyone who can say with a straight face that the ethnic minorities in both the USA and the UK get the same treatment is deluded, and that goes for the military as well.

It’s one thing to have someone say your an asshole because they don’t like you. Fair enough. It’s quite another to have someone say I don’t like that n*****. It now has nothing to do with you as a person but you as an identity.

[SASless]

So…you as an Officer or NCO become aware of such conduct….do you take immediate and appropriate action to correct the problem?

Your own conduct sets the example and should ensure misconduct gets dealt with.

This kind of misconduct does not go on in a vacuum and there should be zero tolerance for it.

If the accusation that Racism is systemic within your individual military then that tells me there has been a gross failure of leadership by all ranks and within the ranks.

Is that the situation extant in both the British and American Militaries?

I think not!

Are there some that fail to live up to the expected Standard….sure!

Is it rampant and a crisis….no.

[slacktide]

I sure hope they rename Airshipman to Luftschiffkapitän.

[Darkmouse]

"All lives do matter, but anyone who can say with a straight face that the ethnic minorities in both the USA and the UK get the same treatment is deluded, and that goes for the military as well."

I'll tell you with a straight face that in the UK ethnic minorities get the same treatment. Don't take my word for it, there are plenty of studies and statistics that will tell you that with the exception of those of Afro Carribbean heritage, educational outcomes and later life earning figures for ethnic minorities outstrip thier white counterparts. That alone should tell you that skin colour plays no role in people's ability to succeed or otherwise in the UK. There are certainly inequalities, but they fall along socio-economic lines, not racial.

I have lived all over the world, and the UK is probably the most accepting place I have ever come across. In the RAF specifically, I have never met anyone who could care less about what colour someone is. It has been a very long time since anyone, other than the current crop of 'social justice warriors', generalised about people based purely on their skin colour.

[NutLoose]

When I was introduced to a guy in Germany I was told his name was xyz.. Unknown to me XYZ was a nickname as he was black and there was an American TV series running at the same time staring a black chap called XYZ... Several months went by and one day he said you know my name is ABC, well I didn't, being niave at the time I had naturally assumed XYZ was his name and I said sorry to my friend, but by then the name had got so ingrained into my mind I still slipped up when talking to him, though I tried... If that makes sense.

[ORAC]

Nicknames are applied based on many reasons - including TV programmes.

There was a officer cadet intake where some of the cadets were given nicknames based on the names of the firemen in Trumpton (kids programme), namely Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew, Cuthbert, Dibble and Grub.

Dibble's stuck and that's still how is he named and called over 40 years later. Similarly "Gorky" Park was nicknamed after the book and still is known by that name - (in fact I had to sit here for a couple of minutes trying to remember their real first names).

[cafesolo]

We had a flying instructor at Barkston Heath by the name of Sercombe; all his fellow instructors addressed him as "Size." We cadets, never !

[NutLoose]

When I joined up I had a broad Cumbrian accent and the peasants from down south thought I was Welsh so nicknamed me Taff.. stranger things in life have happened, but when I then did my training at St Athan, the local commando's wouldn't touch an English boy, but as a Taff... I filled my erm Welsh boots.....

[SASless]

It appears that the US DOD has gone beyond mere "Diversity" under the new administration and is taking active action to confront "extremism" within the Ranks of the US Military.

Under the new SECDEF, Secretary Austin, new policies are being crafted, investigations being done, a full one Day Stand Down for a full force day of training and discussion, and other actions are causing a pushback by many members of the military and even some on a major committee formed to craft a new policy.

US Law and Constitutional protections present firewalls between the Individual and the Government's power to conduct Intelligence Operations of US Citizens (including the Military Members) inside the United States or on US Territory.

The question that first must be answered is in arriving at definitions of conduct, beliefs, and actions that would be considered concerns to the Military re "Insider Threats" or otherwise unacceptable for Military Personnel.

Is the UK MoD following the same path as the US DoD in this diversity thing?

Are our Militaries filled with radicalized persons that pose a legitimate threat?

How do we define that which is and should be considered unacceptable?

https://media.defense.gov/2021/Apr/09/2002617921/-1/-1/1/MEMORANDUM-IMMEDIATE-ACTIONS-TO-COUNTER-EXTREMISM-IN-THE-DEPARTMENT-AND-THE-ESTABLISHMENT-OF-THE-COUNTERING-EXTREMISM-WORKING-GROUP.PDF

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/06/29/adviser-to-pentagon-counter-extremism-group-warns-of-protected-speech-crackdown/

[NutLoose]

I was around when merely being a Homosexual was a mortal Sin that got you removed from the Military......and any homosexual conduct got you Court Martialed and removed from the Service..

No doubt t here were many such folks that served honorably without being known for their being Homosexuals.....which is exactly how it should be.....do the job and be judged upon your performance and service.



I always thought that was a self licking lollipop in the UK, as they were deemed a security risk in certain quarters and open to possible blackmail, but they were only a security risk and open to blackmail because it was forbidden and career ending.

If it had been legalised then, the so called security risk and blackmail threat to reveal all to ones lords and masters would have vanished.

Still it did work as a get out for a few who wanted to PVR but were not allowed.

[Toadstool]

Is the UK MoD following the same path as the US DoD in this diversity thing? Yes, it’s mandatory.

Are our Militaries filled with radicalized persons that pose a legitimate threat? Not, as far as I’m aware, in the UK military. Clearly your DoD thinks there is in your military.

How do we define that which is and should be considered unacceptable? In the UK, the Equalities Act 2010 defines protected characteristics. That’s a starter and forms part of the UK military D&I trg. Military law defines the rest.

https://media.defense.gov/2021/Apr/09/2002617921/-1/-1/1/MEMORANDUM-IMMEDIATE-ACTIONS-TO-COUNTER-EXTREMISM-IN-THE-DEPARTMENT-AND-THE-ESTABLISHMENT-OF-THE-COUNTERING-EXTREMISM-WORKING-GROUP.PDF

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/06/29/adviser-to-pentagon-counter-extremism-group-warns-of-protected-speech-crackdown/

(Deleted due to my error in numbers)

[ExAscoteer2]

I always thought that was a self licking lollipop in the UK, as they were deemed a security risk in certain quarters and open to possible blackmail, but they were only a security risk and open to blackmail because it was forbidden and career ending.


When I did my USyO cse I questioned this very subject, given that it had never been illegal in UK to be Lesbian, and Male homsexuality had been decriminalised in 1967.

I was told that Gay people would sell out the Military to any enemy power because they would blame their lack of promotion on being discriminated against for being homosexual.

Talk about circular logic!

Fortunately we've come a long way in the past 20 years.

[SASless]

Toad,

Cite your source for the claim of "Thousands of incidents of extremism" and "White extremism has overtaken Islamic extremism as the bigger killer" so we can see that data will you?

I challenge those statements being accurate.

I and prepared to be convinced if you can document those statements with accurate data.

Allegations of that have been made by some pushing an agenda to include our FBI Director....but then we know how reliable the Senior Ranks of that organization has been of late.

No mention of any group or orientation in this DHS Release on Domestic Terrorism.....


https://www.dhs.gov/ntas/advisory/national-terrorism-advisory-system-bulletin-may-14-2021


One Review cited just less than a thousand incidents since 1994....a period of 27 Years....for a population of over 300 Million people.

[Capt Scribble]

Toad, you might check the 730 that have been slaughtered in the name of islam in the last 30 days. I would value your link for the figures on white extremism. https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=Last30

[SASless]

The Insider Threat is real....but the Killers are quite diverse in many ways.

This news article begins to demonstrate that and the difficulties that exist in combating the threat.

Accurately defining the problem....and the causes....before addressing solutions is the key.

Fostering a cohesive bonding between those wearing our uniforms and serving with one another is the key.

Some. scoffed at the US Army List of Principles as being mere PR...but those very principles if applied by all would settle the "Diversity" concerns in a. way that brings us together rather than dividing us.

Teaching inclusion to the exclusion of division seems the smart way to me.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/fatal-shootings-us-military-bases-highlight-unexpected-growing/story?id=67597032

[Toadstool]

Toad,

Cite your source for the claim of "Thousands of incidents of extremism" and "White extremism has overtaken Islamic extremism as the bigger killer" so we can see that data will you?

I challenge those statements being accurate.

https://www.dhs.gov/ntas/advisory/national-terrorism-advisory-system-bulletin-may-14-2021


One Review cited just less than a thousand incidents since 1994....a period of 27 Years....for a population of over 300 Million people.

SAS,

apologies you are correct and I was incorrect with the numbers. I will edit my post to remove my error.

A report issued jointly by the DHS, DoJ, ODNI and FBI on Mar 17 said

(U) The IC assesses that racially or ethnically motivated violent extremists (RMVEs) and militia violent extremists (MVEs) present the most lethal DVE threats, with RMVEs most likely to conduct mass-casualty attacks against civilians and MVEs typically targeting law enforcement and government personnel and facilities. The IC assesses that the MVE threat increased last year and that it will almost certainly continue to be elevated throughout 2021 because of contentious sociopolitical factors that motivate MVEs to commit violence.

Their assessment is Domestic Violent Extremism poses the largest threat to the US.

It is assessed that %13 of those arrested after the Capitol incident were either former or current military.

It is this, and the rising number of military personnel involved in DVE which may have prompted Secdef to do what he did.

[Toadstool]

Toad, you might check the 730 that have been slaughtered in the name of islam in the last 30 days. I would value your link for the figures on white extremism. https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=Last30


Scribble, I don’t doubt that however I was discussing matters inside the US and was replying to SASless about why SecDef did what he did.

[BEagle]

[...]a pushback by many members of the military[...]

:ooh:

Rather an unfortunate turn of phrase??