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Sotonsean
26th May 2021, 02:23
Boeing 727 100/200 Holiday jets.

Going on from Mooncrests Boeing 737-200 Holiday jets thread I thought that a similar one regarding the Boeing 727 during the same period would also be interesting.

I have combined the Boeing 727-100 and Boeing 727-200 series as neither of which were flown by many European charter airlines during the 1980's.

There were several European charter airlines operating the Boeing 727 on European holiday/charter flights during the 1980's along with the mainstream European scheduled airline's and in particular national flag carriers.

The following airlines operated Boeing 727-100 and Boeing 727-200 on European holiday/charter flights during the 1980's.

CHARTER AIRLINES

Air Atlantis
Air Charter International
Air Columbus Boeing 727-100/200)
Air Yugoslavia
Aviogenex
Condor (Boeing 727-100/200)
Dan Air (Boeing 727-100/200)
Hapag Lloyd (Boeing 727-100/200)
Sobelair (Boeing 727-100)
Sterling Airlines
​​​Transair Sweden (Boeing 727-100)

SCHEDULED AIRLINES (operating charters/holiday flights)

Air Malta (leased two Boeing 727-200 for two years)
Iberia
JAT Yugoslav Airlines
Lufthansa (operating on behalf of Condor) (Boeing 727-100/200)
Pan Am (Boeing 727-100)
Sabena (operating on behalf of Sobelair) (Boeing 727-100/200)
TAP Air Portugal (Boeing 727-100/200)

Air France, Alitalia, Olympic Airways, Royal Air Moroc and Tunisair may also have operated charter/holiday flights from their respected countries with their Boeing 727-200's during the 1980's.

I'm sure that I have missed a few other airline's that operated the Boeing 727-100/200 on European charter/holiday flights during the 1980's.

Looking forward to reading other members contributions.

​​​​​

GBYAJ
26th May 2021, 05:43
Another hard one after the initial list but how about

toros air - turkey

lineas areas canaries - one leased for a summer.

Sotonsean
26th May 2021, 06:21
Another hard one after the initial list but how about

toros air - turkey

lineas areas canaries - one leased for a summer.

Thanks for those two additional Boeing 727 operator's.

Another airline that operated Boeing 727-200's during the 1980's was the French charter airline Europe Aero Service.

Icelandair had a few Boeing 727-100's in their fleet during the 1980's that flew charter flights from Reykjavik (Keflavik) to the Canary Islands and Mediterranean resorts along with the airline's scheduled flights.

In comparison to the Boeing 737-200 there were far less charter/holiday airlines/operator's of the Boeing 727 series in Europe during the 1980's although the national flag carriers such as Air France, Alitalia, Iberia and Lufthansa had considerable fleets.

Mooncrest
26th May 2021, 06:43
Air Atlantis
SAT Flug
Wardair - I never saw it but their single 727 apparently spent a lot of time in Europe.

GBYAJ
26th May 2021, 06:59
American Trans Air - operated for either Air 2000 or Paramount.

air Holland

Asturias56
26th May 2021, 07:45
The 727 wasn't really very suitable for European operations - whereas the 737 was perfect.

For along time you were much likelier to fly a 737 in Europe than in the USA

ATNotts
26th May 2021, 08:00
Air Atlantis
SAT Flug
Wardair - I never saw it but their single 727 apparently spent a lot of time in Europe.

I know the 727 (CF-FUN) operated charter flights between Gatwick and Canada, but where was the tech stop? I assume Goose Bay, but could also have been Halifax or St Johns. Were there any occasions where freak weather permitted a non stop from LGR to YYZ?

TCU
26th May 2021, 11:42
American Trans Air - operated for either Air 2000 or Paramount.

Plus of course -22 N284AT which did a brief few months with British Airways. There are pictures on the airliners site of it at both LGW and JER in the summer months of 1988, so no doubt the odd tourist or two on board.

I flew Dan-Air 727-212, G-BHVT, in September 1980, LGW-KOS-LGW. Naturally in those days aeroplane mad kids were always welcome in the cockpit and I always remember the delightful flight crew who indulged the then 15 year old self on the LGW-KOS flight with a wonderful chat about their new toy. So new in fact, the Singapore Airlines paint scheme was still evident in parts outside, as was the registration brass bearing 9V-SGC mounted on the instrument panel.

washoutt
26th May 2021, 11:47
Asturias, what made the 727 less fitting for European routes?

SpringHeeledJack
26th May 2021, 12:29
Wardair - I never saw it but their single 727 apparently spent a lot of time in Europe.

As someone else above has said, it operated into LGW, I saw it there on a few occasions back in the day. It 'might' also have done rotations to Lahr in Germany to ferry RCAF families/visitors through Gatwick back to Canada.

I flew in Hapag-Lloyd and Condor 727's from Germany to the Canary Islands and they always seemed to be very spick and span compared to other airlines.

DH106
26th May 2021, 12:52
Wardair - I never saw it but their single 727 apparently spent a lot of time in Europe.

Was that the 727 that once threatened to make an appearance at LBA pre extension? There was a large press turnout, but apparently it diverted as the winds weren't favourable? Early 80's perhaps.

SWBKCB
26th May 2021, 13:58
Was that the 727 that once threatened to make an appearance at LBA pre extension? There was a large press turnout, but apparently it diverted as the winds weren't favourable? Early 80's perhaps.

Not early 80's - long gone by then. Was a regular in MAN as well as LGW in the early 70's. Also, American Flyers?

EAS and Bellair of France

Liffy 1M
26th May 2021, 14:20
Irish operator Club Air, an offshoot of Club Travel, operated a total of three leased 727s in the 1987-1989 period, though never more than two at any one time IIRC.

dixi188
26th May 2021, 14:48
Not a charter flight, but I remember the Ariana Afgan 727 that crashed at Fernhill just short of Gatwick's runway 26 on 5th Jan 1969.

Pat UK
26th May 2021, 15:53
Boeing 727 100/200 Holiday jets.

Going on from Mooncrests Boeing 737-200 Holiday jets thread I thought that a similar one regarding the Boeing 727 during the same period would also be interesting.

I have combined the Boeing 727-100 and Boeing 727-200 series as neither of which were flown by many European charter airlines during the 1980's.

There were several European charter airlines operating the Boeing 727 on European holiday/charter flights during the 1980's along with the mainstream European scheduled airline's and in particular national flag carriers.

The following airlines operated Boeing 727-100 and Boeing 727-200 on European holiday/charter flights during the 1980's.

CHARTER AIRLINES

Air Charter International
Air Columbus Boeing 727-100/200)
Air Yugoslavia
Aviogenex
Condor (Boeing 727-100/200)
Dan Air (Boeing 727-100/200)
Hapag Lloyd (Boeing 727-100/200)
Sobelair (Boeing 727-100)
Sterling Airlines
​​​Transair Sweden (Boeing 727-100)

SCHEDULED AIRLINES (operating charters/holiday flights)

Air Malta (leased two Boeing 727-200 for two years)
Iberia
JAT Yugoslav Airlines
Lufthansa (operating on behalf of Condor) (Boeing 727-100/200)
Pan Am (Boeing 727-100)
Sabena (operating on behalf of Sobelair) (Boeing 727-100/200)
TAP Air Portugal (Boeing 727-100/200)

Air France, Alitalia, Olympic Airways may also have operated charter/holiday flights from their respected countries with their Boeing 727-200's during the 1980's.

I'm sure that I have missed a few other airline's that operated the Boeing 727-100/200 on European charter/holiday flights during the 1980's.

Looking forward to reading other members contributions.

​​​​​

Dan Air were scheduled as well as charter

Sotonsean
26th May 2021, 17:14
Was that the 727 that once threatened to make an appearance at LBA pre extension? There was a large press turnout, but apparently it diverted as the winds weren't favourable? Early 80's perhaps.

Wardair operated a single Boeing 727-11 registered CF-FUN and named "CY BECKER". It was delivered fresh from Boeing in April 1966 and was withdrawn from Wardair service in February 1973.

CF-FUN was the first Boeing 727 on the Canadian registry and the first jet aircraft delivered to Wardair.

Wardair Boeing 727-11 CF-FUN operated transatlantic flights with a refueling stop in Gander, Newfoundland. CF-FUN also had additional fuel tanks fitted factory fresh for the transatlantic flights.

Sotonsean
26th May 2021, 17:22
Dan Air were scheduled as well as charter

Dan Air was a hybrid charter/scheduled airline but it wasn't until the demise of Air Europe in 1991 that the airline changed direction towards being a major scheduled airline. It wasn't until March 1991 that Dan Air used their fleet of Boeing 727-100/200 on fully fledged schedule service. Up until March 1991 Dan Air used their fleet of Boeing 727's purely on charter work.

Even though Dan Air was a hybrid charter/scheduled airline it was and will always be remembered as a charter airline which up until March 1991 was their main form of business.

Sotonsean
26th May 2021, 17:42
Not early 80's - long gone by then. Was a regular in MAN as well as LGW in the early 70's. Also, American Flyers?

EAS and Bellair of France
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x600/american_flyers_airline_boeing_727_185c_at_london_gatwick_ai rport_aff6a0e72764fb942f5cb50c25bba3d21e3c74af.jpg
American Flyers Boeing 727-35C N2826 at London Gatwick Airport on the the 30 August 1969. American Flyers operated two Boeing 727-100's up until 1971 and made history by being the first airframes of the 727 type to operate transatlantic flights from mainland USA to London Gatwick and Manchester and Frankfurt, Germany. American Flyers was taken over by Universal Airlines on the 25 May 1971. Universal Airlines was taken over by Saturn Airways in 1972. Saturn Airways was taken over by TIA in 1976.

American Flyers two Boeing 727-35C aircraft had ceased operating transatlantic flights in 1971.

Wardair's single Boeing 727-11 aircraft had ceased operating transatlantic flights in 1973 after it was withdrawn from the airline's service.

Sotonsean
26th May 2021, 17:46
Not early 80's - long gone by then. Was a regular in MAN as well as LGW in the early 70's. Also, American Flyers?

EAS and Bellair of France

​​​​​​I had already listed EAS Europe Aero Service in my earlier post number 3.

Sotonsean
26th May 2021, 17:53
Plus of course -22 N284AT which did a brief few months with British Airways. There are pictures on the airliners site of it at both LGW and JER in the summer months of 1988, so no doubt the odd tourist or two on board.

I flew Dan-Air 727-212, G-BHVT, in September 1980, LGW-KOS-LGW. Naturally in those days aeroplane mad kids were always welcome in the cockpit and I always remember the delightful flight crew who indulged the then 15 year old self on the LGW-KOS flight with a wonderful chat about their new toy. So new in fact, the Singapore Airlines paint scheme was still evident in parts outside, as was the registration brass bearing 9V-SGC mounted on the instrument panel.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x683/33022083133_43b48c4094_b_b882e34b5246b3ee6debdea130685af5baa 476e7.jpg
American Trans Air Boeing 727-22 N284AT on approach to London Gatwick Airport in the summer of 1988 whilst on charter to British Airways.

TCU
26th May 2021, 18:03
Thanks for putting that picture up Sean....very pretty aeroplane

On the big brother 737 thread it has been confirmed that the Pan Am 737's ran charters at weekends, in particular to Palma from Berlin. Anyone recall if the Euro based 727's of TWA, United and Delta had similar bucket and spade outings? I note Pan Am was on the starter list.

Musket90
26th May 2021, 18:22
The Wardair B727 CF-FUN often used Kangerlussuaq (BGSF) in Greenland as a tach stop.

GBYAJ
26th May 2021, 18:27
Thanks for putting that picture up Sean....very pretty aeroplane

On the big brother 737 thread it has been confirmed that the Pan Am 737's ran charters at weekends, in particular to Palma from Berlin. Anyone recall if the Euro based 727's of TWA, United and Delta had similar bucket and spade outings? I note Pan Am was on the starter list.

arrived In Dubrovnik on a JAT charter in 1989 and parked next to a Pan Am 727. Not sure if charter or schedule though.

WHBM
26th May 2021, 21:40
Wardair Boeing 727-11 CF-FUN operated transatlantic flights with a refueling stop in Gander, Newfoundland. CF-FUN also had additional fuel tanks fitted factory fresh for the transatlantic flights.
We actually went in it in 1968, Gatwick-Sondrestrom (Greenland)-Vancouver. I've written about it here in the past so won't repeat that. It spent the summer on Transatlantic work and the winter on flights like Vancouver to Acapulco. It spent most of its time in western Canada; Wardair's base was in Edmonton, they started off becoming known in Vancouver/Calgary/Edmonton, and only later moved into the Toronto market, especially that year when it was their first jet. With refuelling each way it couldn't quite make round transatlantic trips within 24 hours, but would do two or three days together. Definitely a holiday jet. Apart from Gatwick, and a few times a year at Manchester or Prestwick, Amsterdam seemed their other destination, and if they had any spare time in Europe they put themselves straight in the hands of a broker for any sudden subcharters - if they turned up in the Med, that's what they were doing.

Probably not many here who have been to Greenland. A few years ago on a December BA 744 Heathrow-Vancouver I could see we were going to route directly over Sondrestrom, presumably a beacon there. Looking down, eventually there it was, about five lights in the winter darkness.

Clueless In CLK
26th May 2021, 22:08
Air Holland - Lineas Aeraes Canairies - Germania
Also recall an Aerolineas Argentina 727 operating in Europe
Air Algeria
Air Slovakia
Torosair
Istanbul Airlines
Air Malta - leased from peru
Nomads 727
Cyprus Turkish Airlines
Abatros
Air Alfa
Talia
Noble Air
Sultan Air
Baltic Air
Air Atlantis

Sotonsean
26th May 2021, 22:53
Another hard one after the initial list but how about

toros air - turkey

lineas areas canaries - one leased for a summer.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x398/lv_mim_c955e01ffa3bed49540b288f4e6e0139ba3f9c6c.jpg

Aerolineas Argentinas Boeing 727-287 LV-MIM was originally chartered by the Irish operator Talia but was sub chartered by Lineas Aereas Canaries on the 15 May 1988.

Sotonsean
26th May 2021, 23:04
Irish operator Club Air, an offshoot of Club Travel, operated a total of three leased 727s in the 1987-1989 period, though never more than two at any one time IIRC.

The Irish operator Club Air certainly had an extremely hybrid livery on their former Eastern Airlines Boeing 727-225. As well as holiday flights Club Air operated a Luton to Dublin route on behalf of Virgin Atlantic in the late eighties with the Boeing 727-225.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x692/boeing_727_225_club_air_jp52495_a88f4663922f599f7cb31b26cf10 9336c54edfa6.jpg

WHBM
26th May 2021, 23:04
Air Malta - leased from Peru
A particularly sad moment. Air Malta developed a procedure of chartering in medium-term each summer season from a variety of operators, they had several 727s, from JAT, American Trans Air, etc, in 1990 it was Faucett from Peru who sent over a 727-200 for 6 months. At the end of the season they set off home with their establishment, they had supplied several crews, flight deck and cabin, and engineering, some of whom had taken families. Routing through Keflavik, they were overdue at Gander and last heard of with a Mayday that they were out of fuel over the Atlantic and preparing to ditch. Nothing heard of them again. Not equipped with over-ocean navigation of course.

Sotonsean
26th May 2021, 23:27
A particularly sad moment. Air Malta developed a procedure of chartering in medium-term each summer season from a variety of operators, they had several 727s, from JAT, American Trans Air, etc, in 1990 it was Faucett from Peru who sent over a 727-200 for 6 months. At the end of the season they set off home with their establishment, they had supplied several crews, flight deck and cabin, and engineering, some of whom had taken families. Routing through Keflavik, they were overdue at Gander and last heard of with a Mayday that they were out of fuel over the Atlantic and preparing to ditch. Nothing heard of them again. Not equipped with over-ocean navigation of course.

I've only just learnt about this incident as Wikipedia has a page dedicated to it, very sad indeed.

Faucett Peru Boeing 727-247 OB-1303 ran out of fuel and lost communication and crashed 180 miles southeast of Cape Race, Newfoundland, Canada on the 11 September 1991.

On a side note....Exactly ten years later to the day an event that changed the world occurred.

Here's a photo of the aircraft in question... Faucett Peru Boeing 727-247 OB-1303.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x683/34997263032_7067e2459c_b_e1823b97cf0fb9f099406eda700048e80ff 092b6.jpg
​​​​​​​

N707ZS
27th May 2021, 06:39
We seem to be missing Sabre and Cougar aviation.

Liffy 1M
27th May 2021, 08:02
The loss of the Faucett Peru 727 occurred in 1990, so eleven years before 9/11.

BSD
27th May 2021, 08:28
Faucett/Air Malta - what a dreadful story.

Back in the late 70s/early 80s there was a 727-200 lying semi derelict to the east of the runway at Corfu. It had either overrun or left the runway and ended up in the "lagoon" beside the runway. I think it was even supported by oil barrels.

Some while after I first saw it there, it was recovered, repaired and returned to service with Dan-Air. It was distinctive because it had a 4 metre (or so) brace on the top of the fuselage from just behind the crown point to about abeam the leading edge. Apparently a support for where the aircraft had broken its back. The repair was probably a lot more sophisticated then my schoolboy interpretation, but nevertheless I believe it did many years of sterling service once it was back in action.

Could it have been G-BMLP?

Saw it because at the time I was flying that other icon of the IT holiday charter market - the 737-200 for a UK airline.

DH106
27th May 2021, 08:47
Could it have been G-BMLP?

The 'humped back' 727 that Dan Air operated was indeed G-BMLP, but apparently the hump was an ADF aeriel/air-con ducting flairing, not a repair.
Thread about it here:-
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=418899

oldpax
27th May 2021, 09:17
The 'humped back' 727 that Dan Air operated was indeed G-BMLP, but apparently the hump was an ADF aeriel flairing, not a repair.
Thread about it here:-
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=418899
From feb 1978 until Oct 1980 I was working near Oran in Algeria and used to fly back to london every six weeks via Marseille or Geneva etc and flew in many 727s of Air Algerie.

rog747
27th May 2021, 12:48
Someone here said the The 727 wasn't really very suitable for European operations - whereas the 737 was perfect.

Well the 727 came first in the mid 1960's and both the Germans (Condor) and the Swedes (Transair Sweden) loved them for their comfort 131 pax, and the long legs to have the range to fly to the Canary Islands non-stop, also Icelandic used their 727's too.

Dan Air in 1973 got some 727-100's (3 at first, then soon 5 then 8) and added some extra aft doors and put in 146 pax (5 of the 727 had this mod)
This was the start of their Comet replacement on Dan's longer routes, basing the 727 at LGW, MAN, and also at Berlin TXL for the German IT market.

Re long legs - Into LGW from 1966 onwards saw the new 727 of Wardair crossing the pond followed by World AW, AFA and TIA all on Affinity Group charters.
Wardair fuelled up in Greenland or Iceland, sometimes SNN and I gather the odd non-stop made it to PIK>?
Wardair's 727 had 117 seats. I flew on it Summer 1972 from Dubrovnik to LGW operating a Sub charter for a BCAL 1-11 500.

Sterling AW in the late 1970's ordered the latest 189 seat 727-200ADV HGW with -17 engines (The heaviest 727's ever built) and added extra fuel tanks aft where Boeing then added an extra (3rd) hold door for the rear bags to go in.
Sterling used them non-stop to the Canary Islands of course, and to the USA and Canada, plus down to Mombasa, the Maldives, Ceylon and Thailand.
Sterling were also the first 727 airline to opt for the Valsan Super Silent 727 RE package and had 2 aircraft modified.

Dan Air standardised their charter fleet with the 727-200, their 189 seat aircraft used as far as TLV and Eilat/Ovda.
Dan Air never normally used the 727 for their scheduled routes.

Of course in the 1970's many UK and German airlines were flying the BAC 1-11 300/400 and 500, but were not finding it suitable for longer holiday routes like Greece and the Canary Islands, and this is where the 737-200, especially when the ADV versions came along and the 737 won hands down, leading to new start up airlines like Air Europe and Orion buying brand new fleets.
Although even back then Paninternational of Germany flew their 1-11 500's to Mombasa.
Other airlines were flying a bunch of older jets like the 707/720 DC-8 and CV990, cheap to buy, plenty of seats, but soon to their cost found them too expensive to run causing many Charter airlines to fold.

rog747
27th May 2021, 13:34
Sterling Airways - Trivia

Their 727's flew their main routes to Southern Europe, but also to San Francisco, Miami and Toronto as well from Copenhagen. The SFO trip may have included 3 stops, Keflavik, Bangor or Iqaluit and Omaha.
The 20 hour trip in a seat with a pitch of 29-30 inches plus a non-stop duty free bar was just one of the incredibly popular trips that made Sterling an icon of the Nordic region.
Boeing saw what Sterling were trying to do, but also saw a way to advertise the advances that Boeing was making with the continued development of the 727.

The Advanced 727's for Sterling were the highest gross weight 727's ever built, with an MTOW of 208,000lbs using JT8D-17 engines and seating for up to 189 passengers.

By 1987 the airline was celebrating it's 25th Anniversary, and was one of Europe's largest charter company.
While most routes were shorter flights to Southern Europe, one of the airlines most popular routes was from Oslo to Gran Canarias some 2,270nm making it the longest direct 727 flight, all with six flight attendants serving 189 passengers with literally tonnes of drinks and duty free both on the outbound, and also before arriving back in Copenhagen.

Sterling was the launch customer for the Valsan Silent 727 modification in 1988 and also home to the European centre where other 727's were re-engined and modified.

Super 27 - Silent 727
Speed increased by 50 mph, due to replacement of the two side engines with the JT8D-217 used on MD-80, along with the addition of a hush kit to the centre engine. Winglets were added to some of aircraft to increase fuel efficiency by 5%. This modification was originally developed by Valsan Partners, but was later marketed by Quiet Wing Technologies.

The Valsan program was intended to make 727-200s compliant with the Stage 3 noise rules. The outer (#1 and #3) JT8D-9 -17s are replaced with JT8D-217s, which have a higher bypass ratio and are quieter. The centre (#2) engine, being buried in the tailcone, could not be easily replaced, so instead it looses its thrust reverser and gets an internal (bypass/core) mixer, to lower its noise signature.
The first modified aircraft, for Sterling Airways of Denmark, re-entered service in October 1988.

WHBM
27th May 2021, 13:42
Some while after I first saw it there, it was recovered, repaired and returned to service with Dan-Air. It was distinctive because it had a 4 metre (or so) brace on the top of the fuselage from just behind the crown point to about abeam the leading edge. Apparently a support for where the aircraft had broken its back.
Not a repair, although the aircraft was seriously damaged with its initial owner Mexicana and was sold off afterwards. It operated for a couple of other carriers before Dan-Air got it. All Mexicana's 727s were like this as they fitted JATO assistance bottles under the fuselage in case of hot/high engine failure departing from Mexico City, and the various services from that area had to be relocated, hence the hump. Mexicana kept most of their 727s for the full duration, so the others were not seen in Europe. After Dan-Air it moved on elsewhere and eventually was converted to a freighter. Various other Mexican operators did other modifications to deal with the high elevation as well; DC-10s there were a special DC-10-15 hybrid, with the intermediate DC-10-10 structure etc but the long-haul DC-10-30 larger engines.

Groundloop
27th May 2021, 14:41
Both Wardair's and American Flyers 727s were also quite common at Glasgow (Abbotsinch not Prestwick) for a while.

SpringHeeledJack
27th May 2021, 17:01
I flew on a Mexicana 727 from Puerto Escondido to Mexico City in 1989, would that have had JATO bottle fitted ? Also I did a few flights on PanAm 727's between JFK and MIA in 1993, would these have been the ones used in Germany back in the day, or later variants ? They were in full PanAm regalia internally and externally.

WHBM
27th May 2021, 19:39
I flew on a Mexicana 727 from Puerto Escondido to Mexico City in 1989, would that have had JATO bottle fitted ? Also I did a few flights on PanAm 727's between JFK and MIA in 1993, would these have been the ones used in Germany back in the day, or later variants ? They were in full PanAm regalia internally and externally.
I believe all the Mexicana 727-200s had it. They were more marginal than the original model. Mexicana had both.

Pan Am shut down in December 1991, and the various reincarnations that came and went were not running in 1993, so I guess this refers to a former Pan Am aircraft. It's a chance that it had been in the Berlin fleet. Back in the 1970s Pan Am's 727 fleet was about half and half between Berlin and Miami, maybe a dozen each, with about another three up to 1975 also at Bangkok whence they operated military charters into Vietnam (obviously not after the fall). The two fleets did periodic exchanges, which is how they turned up occasionally transiting Prestwick or Shannon. But after 1980 National Airlines was merged in, including the route you were on, which brought their own substantial 727 fleet into Pan Am. Furthermore Pan Am then brought various secondhand aircraft in addition. They gave up in Berlin in 1990, shortly after the Wall fell there, and the fleet returned to the USA, although in the final years it was pretty much 737s (secondhand and often looking decidedly down-at-heel, plus a couple of A300s. But 737s are over in the other thread !

Flightrider
27th May 2021, 20:15
When G-BMLP first visited these shores, there were quite a few issues with the CAA getting it certificated in view of both the JATO system and the previous damage history of the airframe. It spent part of its first summer flying for Dan-Air as N727ZV (I think?) and was always reckoned by the Dan crews to be a little bit faster than the other 727s, which was some going as the 727s could comfortably overtake a 737 which had left ten minutes earlier on a night flight back to the UK from Corfu or Malaga.

Sotonsean
27th May 2021, 21:06
We seem to be missing Sabre and Cougar aviation.

That's because we're generally discussing the eighties!

Sabre was established in August 1994 and started operations on the 17 December 1994. Sabre was absorbed into Excel Airways on the 12 September 2008.

Cougar Aviation was founded in 2000 and started operations in March 2001 with three Boeing-225. Cougar Aviation ceased operating on the 17 May 2003.

WHBM
27th May 2021, 21:50
When G-BMLP first visited these shores, there were quite a few issues with the CAA getting it certificated in view of both the JATO system and the previous damage history of the airframe. It spent part of its first summer flying for Dan-Air as N727ZV (I think?)
It had actually been used quite a bit in between the damage (which took just a few months to repair) and Dan-Air getting it; it did a year with Northeastern (not to be confused with Northeast), and then a year with Sun Country in the US, before coming across the Atlantic. The FAA seemed OK with it. The CAA did have a history of finding issues with Dan-Air's 727s.

SpringHeeledJack
28th May 2021, 06:24
I believe all the Mexicana 727-200s had it. They were more marginal than the original model. Mexicana had both.

Pan Am shut down in December 1991, and the various reincarnations that came and went were not running in 1993, so I guess this refers to a former Pan Am aircraft. It's a chance that it had been in the Berlin fleet. Back in the 1970s Pan Am's 727 fleet was about half and half between Berlin and Miami, maybe a dozen each, with about another three up to 1975 also at Bangkok whence they operated military charters into Vietnam (obviously not after the fall). The two fleets did periodic exchanges, which is how they turned up occasionally transiting Prestwick or Shannon. But after 1980 National Airlines was merged in, including the route you were on, which brought their own substantial 727 fleet into Pan Am. Furthermore Pan Am then brought various secondhand aircraft in addition. They gave up in Berlin in 1990, shortly after the Wall fell there, and the fleet returned to the USA, although in the final years it was pretty much 737s (secondhand and often looking decidedly down-at-heel, plus a couple of A300s. But 737s are over in the other thread !

Thank you for the info. On checking the PanAm flights, they were in April of 1991 and were PanAm flights, PAxxx flight numbers and aircraft. I had many years where I was just flying with minimal 'enthusiast' interest and it's all a blur. Wish I'd had a camera....During this time I did do a few flights on Kiwi International Airlines 727's between Newark (the 'cheap' option for NYC back then) to Chicago Midway (also the cheap option) and I seem to remember some of their 727's were ex-PanAm, although maybe Northwest Orient originally.

jetstream7
28th May 2021, 20:34
A few more.

Portugal
Air Madeira

Yugoslavia
Trans Adria

Sweden
Scanair

Turkey
BHT Bogazici Air Transport
TUR European Airways
Birgenair
Nesu Air

Belgium
Constellation International Airlines

Czechoslovakia
Air Terrex

Slovakia
Air Slovakia

UK
Southern International Air Transport - well not quite... this Viscount operator was due to use a 727, but it never came to fruition - did Dan Air operate it instead?
European Air Charter - again, not quite - had a 727 painted up, but never operated for them?

Some of these may be out of scope as they are from the 1990s, some may have operated the 727 for a short time and on lease from other airlines.

jensdad
29th May 2021, 03:59
Yugoslavia
Trans Adria


I don't think Trans Adria had 727's as they were an internal operator with (I think) Swearingen Metroliners?

treadigraph
29th May 2021, 04:43
Maybe Inex Adria though I don't recall them ever having 727s.

rog747
29th May 2021, 08:29
Former Yugoslavia holidays operator Yugotours used JAT Charter (Air Yugoslavia) 727-200's along with 707 and DC-9.
TransAdria came out of former Pan Adria who had a sole DC-9 (that went to Inex Adria, who never flew any Boeings)

Aviogenex went ''Boeing'' to replace their TU-134A's in 1983 with 727-200's, and 2 new 737-200 in 1987.
(The 727 were 2 former Tito Air Force VIP aircraft that sometimes flew charters to the UK in that livery)

Iberia 727's flew for Aviaco IT's on many occasions.

Olympic AW had a series of night charters in the 1970's from LHR to CFU, ATH, HER and RHO Maritsa.
They used 727, 720B and 707 on these.

Scanair's 727 were actually the Transair Sweden fleet but the 2 had tied up together, and Transair 727's stayed in their own colours.

Pan Am 727-100's were seen now and again at LTN and MAN subbing for the likes of Britannia etc<
and Pan Am regularly flew 727 IT charters from Berlin for German Holidaymakers until reunification.

Hapag Lloyd started up in 1973 with 727-100's around the same time as Dan Air acquired theirs. (all coming second hand from Japan)
Hapag Lloyd had 7 by 1977, as did Dan Air.
In 1979 Hapag Lloyd got 2 brand new 727-200ADV from Boeing.

No UK airline flew the 727 at that early time, but BMA were offered some 727-100's (cannot recall who from) I think they then went for the DC-9 and turned them down,
and Court Line were musing the 727-200.
No idea if Britannia AW ever considered the 727 but I am sure Boeing would have tried.

727 Funchal Madeira Airport Trivia -

When Funchal Madeira Airport started to accept Jets, TAP's 727-82's flew there, and then TAP started to fly in their new 727-282ADV from 1975.
The original runway opened in 1964 was only 1,600m long, although it was theoretically just long enough for the first generation of jets, such as the Caravelle and Boeing 727, it had become clear by 1972 that the runway would need to be extended if it was to accommodate the ever increasing flow of tourists, as it was still too short for most jets to fly non-stop back to the UK so a Fuel stop was needed at the Airport on the nearby island of Porto Santo.
However, despite the recognized need the runway extension plan still hadn’t broken ground, but was extended by 200m eight years after the terrible crash of TAP Flight 425 727-282ADV CS-TBR in 1977. TAP Flight 425 was a regular service from Brussels to Funchal, with an en route stop at Lisbon.

Madeira Airport didn’t then have an ILS; only a visual approach could be used to reach the runway.
To land there Pilots had to undergo special training to prepare them for the difficult approach pattern and the extremely unpredictable winds and difficult weather conditions that tend to form where the mountainous island meets the sea, Pilots knew to expect widespread cumulonimbus cloud formations, heavy rain showers, and possible thunderstorms in the vicinity of the Airport that they may encounter.
This required the pilots to be able to maintain visual contact with the runway at all times, both at night, or in bad weather this would be challenging.
In the case of TAP 425 which was attempting a landing in bad weather and at night, not all of the Airport runway lighting systems could be turned on simultaneously.
The Crew requested that the runway lights be turned up to their maximum intensity, to which the Controller replied that he had already done so. But in fact, not all of the lighting could be turned on simultaneously.
With the way the circuitry had been installed, it was impossible to illuminate both the Touchdown Zone lighting and the Visual Approach Slope Indicator System (VASIS) at the same time. To help the pilots of flight 425 execute their visual approach, the Controller had turned on the VASIS lighting, which meant that the lighting on the runway indicating the touchdown zone would be off.
After descending to an altitude of 980 feet, TAP 425 still could not catch sight of the runway, despite the lights. Having reached the minimum descent altitude without visual contact, they had no choice but to go around and try again. The Pilots reported to the Controller that they were climbing back to 3,500 feet and would loop around to try landing on runway 24 from the opposite direction in the hope that conditions there would be better. This runway, while angled downhill, would also allow them to land into wind.
With the airport in sight, TAP 425 lined up to approach runway 24, but the shifting clouds foiled their approach a second time, the Controller asked, “Can you still see the runway?”
TAP 425 replied, “Negative, TAP 425 is making a missed approach and is returning to the MAD .”
At an altitude of just 600 feet, the pilots had lost sight of the runway, forcing another go-around.
As they returned to the beginning of the approach pattern again for a third time, TAP 425 told the Controller, “Okay, I was on final watching 24, and suddenly after passing MAD I completely lost visual. Now I’ll try one more approach, and if I can’t get in this time, we’ll go to Las Palmas.” This attempt to land would be the last before making a costly diversion to the Canary Islands.
The Controller then offered another option. “The Front has been passing quickly,” he said. “Now I think if you wait (hold), maybe you can land.”
But the Pilots of TAP 425 could not afford to sit in a Holding Pattern and wait for conditions to improve. The Pilot on the radio replied, “I can’t, I only have fuel for one more approach.”
TAP 425 lined up to land for the third and final time. The Pilots confirmed they had the lights of runway 24 in sight; The Controller reported that a major downpour had begun near the Control Tower, but the Pilots said they could still see some of the runway lights so they continued.
For a brief moment, they seemed to lose sight again, but then at the last moment the lights came back into view.
“425, for your information, I now have calm wind on runway 24,” the Controller said “Will you try it?”
“Okay,” said 425, “I’m on final and I’ll land.”
This was last radio call heard from the 727
“Okay, wind calm, cleared to land,” the Controller replied.
Flight 425 came in hot, passing over runway 24's threshold 24 knots faster than the normal landing speed.
The Pilots flared the airplane, but at that speed combined with the gentle downward slope of the runway the 727 started “floating” a couple of meters above it, unable to touch down.
The plane overshot the normal TDZ by a significant margin before finally making contact over half way down the 1600 m runway, still traveling 20 knots faster than the optimal landing speed.
The downpour that drenched the airport only moments earlier had left a layer of water on the runway which was slow to drain off.
The runway had been grooved to allow water to run off to the sides, but over time these had worn down enough to allow some standing water, instead to run straight off the runway toward the downhill end.
As a result, when the 727 finally touched down, it did so on a surface contaminated with a continuous layer of water, and Flight 425 aquaplaned immediately, so when the Pilots tried maximum braking this proved completely ineffective.
Desperate to slow down, the Crew then applied maximum reverse thrust, but they were already out of control. An errant rudder input had sent the plane skidding to the right, then back to the left again. Flight 425 slid wildly across the runway, rapidly eating up the remaining distance with no hope of stopping in time. In the Official Accident Report it was noted that the late application of Spoilers and Speed Brakes, failure of the Anti-Skid to operate, plus an incorrect landing flap setting were all contributory factors.
Seconds later the TAP 727 flew off the precipitous west end of the runway at over 90 miles per hour and plunged down the 90 foot embankment at the foot of the runway, clearing the airport perimeter road before smashing tail-first into a disused stone bridge spanning a dry ravine.
The impact shattered the fuselage into four pieces and broke off both wings, leaving the tail section atop the bridge while the rest of the plane cartwheeled onto the rocky beach below. The right wing sheared off on impact and fell on the inland side of the bridge, while the cockpit went nose-first into the beach, where it was crushed underneath the disintegrating passenger cabin.
A fireball erupted over the crashing surf as the fuel tanks exploded, setting the wreckage ablaze.
Against all odds, some people managed to survive the crash and the fire. A few passengers from the last row found themselves still strapped into their seats on top of the bridge, protected from the inferno raging below them. Quite a few others had been thrown from the plane as it broke apart, including some who landed in the sea, where they too avoided the worst of the flames.
Among the survivors was 17-year-old Emanuel Torres, who found himself immersed in the sea with only minor injuries. He picked up a 2-year-old boy struggling in the surf and carried him to safety. Witnesses who rushed to the scene fought fire and smoke to free injured passengers from their seat belts, dragging them away in the nick of time.
Airport fire-fighters also saw the explosion off the end of runway 24 and sped toward it, only to discover that the plane had fallen down off the elevated Airport and onto the beach below, forcing them to drive back the way they came and down the perimeter road to access the crash site.
By the time they got there, Local police and fire-fighters had already arrived and had set about saving the survivors. In all, first responders and the survivors themselves did manage to save the lives of 31 passengers and 2 of the Cabin Crew, most of them suffering from serious injuries. But 131 died, including all three Pilots, whose bodies were never found.

AP Movie News TAP crash aftermath
https://miro.medium.com/max/640/1*9EX508zwkIRZP7r4iPQcVw.gif

It was the deadliest aircraft accident in Portuguese history until 1989 when 144 people died in the crash of an Independent Air Boeing 707 in the Azores.
After the 1977 accident, TAP stopped flying the Boeing 727-282 to Madeira, and started flying only their shorter Boeing 727-100 Series.
In 2000, the runway was again extended, this time to 2,780m built as a platform on stilts extending out over the sea.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x766/75943_452273511475693_1874653468_n_a4f7d936f99f43aa061e8c9af f110c9dd66c4e3d.jpg

FNC 1960's - clearly shows the stone bridge above the beach.


[b]Madeira Tourist Trivia -
Tourism had boomed and Madeira has been on the tourist map for decades, and those visitors of yesteryear came, naturally by Ship, Cruise Liner, or on the Aquila Airways Flying Boat service from Southampton via Lisbon.
Famous past visitors include Sir Winston Churchill, who stayed at Reid’s Palace Hotel, and liked to visit (and repeatedly paint there) at Câmara de Lobos, the pretty fishing village nearby, which provided something of an antidote to his “black dog days”.
George Bernard Shaw was another frequenter, along with Marconi and David Lloyd-George, all attracted by the “Green Pearl'' of the Atlantic’s year-round mild climate, spectacular and lush scenery, gorgeous flora, and friendly welcome.
Madeira was a stop on the Union Castle Lines Empire Mail route from Southampton to the Cape in the Union of South Africa, and onto Mombasa in East Africa.
It was one of the most important British Liner routes of all times, carrying passengers as well as cargo, including the all-important Mail.
It was a byword in travel – ‘every Thursday at 4’, as one of the big Union Castle liners set sail for Cape Town and beyond. ​
The Mount Nelson Hotel in Cape Town was built by the Line for their passengers to rest at after their long sea voyage.

But the island of Madeira's inaccessibility, which of course made it so exclusive, was a problem for Madeira’s government, which wanted both to increase visitor numbers and facilitate trade with Mother Country Portugal. So an Airport was built and opened in 1964 and was at first called Aeroporto de Santa Catarina.

Both Reid's Palace, and the Mount Nelson Hotel's are today owned by Belmond.

WHBM
29th May 2021, 09:55
Clicking on 'Download Spreadsheet' here will give you a nice Excel spreadsheet, initially in Zipfile format, which gives operator detail of all 727s. They are updated every few months.

Airlinerlist.com (planelist.net) (http://www.planelist.net/types.html#721)

TCU
29th May 2021, 18:15
I visited Madeira for the first time in September last year, during the brief reprise in lockdown, flying BA's service from LHR, and like most arriving passengers, enjoyed a wonderful "sporty' arrival in that endless windshear, which the BA A320 crew handled beautifully.

I live in Cape Town and had been repatriated back to the UK on 27th May 2020, along with my young son, to be re-united with my wife who had become trapped in the UK when the worlds borders had shut (Our repatriation flight turned out to be he 4th last ever BA 747-400 passenger service, on G-CIVO). Having spent so much time on BA42/43 and 58/59, I am still sad the -400 will never again grace the skies over Cape Town.

I had never before appreciated the physical link between the UK, Madeira and SA, so beautiful described by rog747. The common flora and fauna along with Madeiran cultural influence, makes anyone who enjoys the Western Cape as their home, immediately feel at home on that vey special island.And yes, Reids is wonderful.

Hopeless waffle on my part.

rog747
30th May 2021, 10:31
That is very kind -
Yes me too as both Madeira and Cape Town hold very special affections for me also, and I do love to stay at both the Grand old pink Ladies -
Reid's Palace FNC and The Mount Nelson CPT.
Two old bastions of Colonial luxury and excess LOL.
(Along with the VIC Falls Hotel as well - I cannot wait to go there, and back to CPT in 2023, then we are sailing home to SOU on the Cunard Liner QM2 calling at Madeira!)

WOW, way off topic now - sorry folks - lockdown boredom lol (Made all the better though by enjoying these Threads)

Back on Topic -
Sterling Airways did fly 727 charters every winter to Mombasa East Africa - Not sure of the stops from Scandinavia tho'

jetstream7
30th May 2021, 19:28
I don't think Trans Adria had 727's as they were an internal operator with (I think) Swearingen Metroliners?

This website about Transair Sweden has the history of SE-DDD and a picture of it with Trans Adria titles.

Boeing 727 ? Transair Sweden AB (http://www.transairsweden.com/aircraft/b727/)

WHBM
30th May 2021, 20:17
Sterling Airways did fly 727 charters every winter to Mombasa East Africa - Not sure of the stops from Scandinavia tho'They also did Bangkok, Natal in Brazil and San Francisco with them. Even more extraordinarily, they had pioneered all these long-haul destinations with Caravelles - certainly the first twin jets to cross the Atlantic on regular services.

jetstream7
30th May 2021, 21:13
Here's another airline...

Jetair - a German airline with a solitary 727-81 (D-AJAA). Lasted a couple of years 1984-86.

SOPS
31st May 2021, 03:44
The 727 wasn't really very suitable for European operations - whereas the 737 was perfect.

For along time you were much likelier to fly a 737 in Europe than in the USA
Why was the 727 not suitable for Europe?

washoutt
31st May 2021, 07:37
Yes, exactly my question in post #9. Was it cost and high maintenance?

bean
31st May 2021, 07:49
727 was perfectly suitable for european operations.
Ask Lufyhansa, Sabena, Air France, Iberia and Air Portugal who all had sizeable fleets.

Mooncrest
31st May 2021, 09:21
727 was perfectly suitable for european operations.
Ask Lufyhansa, Sabena, Air France, Iberia and Air Portugal who all had sizeable fleets.

Alitalia too although they, like Iberia, operated a large DC9-30 fleet concurrently. At least one ex-Alitalia 727 went to Aviogenex - YU-AKM.

rog747
31st May 2021, 09:34
727 was perfectly suitable for European operations.
Ask Lufthansa, Sabena, Air France, Iberia and Air Portugal who all had sizeable fleets.

Indeed - Add Olympic, JAT, TAP, Icelandic, Pan Am, TWA, THY, Alitalia,
and all the North African carriers - RAM, Tunisia, Libyan, Algeria, plus Iran Air & Ariana back in the day.

All LHR & LGW regulars...

treadigraph
31st May 2021, 09:43
I don't ever recall seeing the TWA 727s at Heathrow - though I may have done! - but I know they operated down into the Med - presumably from Berlin? Recall one was famously hijacked.

rog747
31st May 2021, 10:21
I don't ever recall seeing the TWA 727s at Heathrow - though I may have done! - but I know they operated down into the Med - presumably from Berlin? Recall one was famously hijacked.

They (TWA) did 727 feeder services from LHR - same as Pan Am did, but not just to/from Germany IIRC.

Pan Am certainly flew holiday flights from TXL - saw 2 on the ramp together at Palma. Never saw TWA 727 in the Med except ATH and BCN.

WHBM
31st May 2021, 11:09
The TWA 727s had a long history of being based in Southern Europe, one ran Tel Aviv-Athens-Rome as a 747 feeder for many years. Alex Frater, in his classic book about old air travel "Beyond the Blue Horizon" rode in it from Rome to Athens in 1984, and described it in detail. Both flight deck and cabin crew were from the US, the latter revolving with 747 Transatlantic duties. TWA later moved in to Berlin as a competitor on the internal German routes, just a year or two before the wall came down so a wasted investment.

Pan Am at Berlin likewise had US flight deck, they were on 3-month assignment at a time from Miami base. It was a 4-powers agreement that the crews had to be nationals of one of the Allies, but cabin crew were locally recruited. They had to have additional training to repeat all necessary commands from the flight deck in English to the pax in German. A distinctive feature of the Pan Am internal German service ("IGS") was the very short turnrounds, down to 25 minutes, and the heavy usage, 10 sectors a day or even more.

The GDR controllers on the corridor routes were apparently very adept at picking up accents of pilots who might not be US/British/French, especially on charters and biz-jets. THey could even distinguish Canadian from American.

Mooncrest
31st May 2021, 12:26
I doubt it will ever happen but I've wondered if it would have been feasible/practicable/doable to reconfigure the 727 cockpit to a two-crew layout. Airbus managed it with the A300, thereby dispensing with the Flight Engineer.

dixi188
31st May 2021, 19:14
I doubt it will ever happen but I've wondered if it would have been feasible/practicable/doable to reconfigure the 727 cockpit to a two-crew layout. Airbus managed it with the A300, thereby dispensing with the Flight Engineer.
Don't I know it! I was "dispensed with".

Mooncrest
31st May 2021, 20:48
Don't I know it! I was "dispensed with".
Too bad but one of many similar victims, I fear. Which airline ?

dixi188
1st Jun 2021, 08:36
Too bad but one of many similar victims, I fear. Which airline ?
2012 with EAT. (DHL).
I had 20 years in the middle seat which was more than I expected when I started on the Electra with Channex.

SpringHeeledJack
1st Jun 2021, 11:14
I had 20 years in the middle seat which was more than I expected when I started on the Electra with Channex.

Did most of the Flight Engineers convert to pilot, or was it a case of do something different on the ground ? I realise you're not the oracle of information, but a generalised answer would be interesting.

dixi188
1st Jun 2021, 11:56
At Channex a couple of F/Es went Pilot but at their own cost. At EAT there were at least two pilots who were ex F/E. I think UPS paid for their F/Es to become pilots.
I think FEDEX did something similar when they converted their DC-10s to MD-10s.
I returned to maintenance engineering as I had kept my licence current.

SpringHeeledJack
1st Jun 2021, 13:54
Thanks! It seems to have been a matter of cost somehow, with the large carriers happy to swallow the cost to keep their valued staff at full potential.

dixi188
1st Jun 2021, 15:36
Thanks! It seems to have been a matter of cost somehow, with the large carriers happy to swallow the cost to keep their valued staff at full potential.
I think it may have been more to do with powerful unions.

TCU
3rd Jun 2021, 19:57
That is very kind -
Yes me too as both Madeira and Cape Town hold very special affections for me also, and I do love to stay at both the Grand old pink Ladies -
Reid's Palace FNC and The Mount Nelson CPT.
Two old bastions of Colonial luxury and excess LOL.
(Along with the VIC Falls Hotel as well - I cannot wait to go there, and back to CPT in 2023, then we are sailing home to SOU on the Cunard Liner QM2 calling at Madeira!)

WOW, way off topic now - sorry folks - lockdown boredom lol (Made all the better though by enjoying these Threads)

Back on Topic -
Sterling Airways did fly 727 charters every winter to Mombasa East Africa - Not sure of the stops from Scandinavia tho'

rog747, next time you find yourself at 18E/30S, please pm me. I'd love to buy you a glass or two of the lekker local vino and take you for a spin out of Stellenbosch Flying Club! Now back those wonderfully elegant 727's

The Flying Stool
9th Jun 2021, 19:37
With regards to Dan Air charter operations from NCL, my first flight was NCL-MAH in September 1991. All I know apart from the above,( I was six years old at the time) is that we boarded via the ventral air stairs. Can anyone confirm whether this would have been a 727 or a 1-11? I believe both were based at Newcastle in 1991.

WHBM
9th Jun 2021, 20:44
Both did indeed run from there. 727 seating is 3+3; One-Eleven is 2+3. Can you remember any 2-across seating ?

GBYAJ
9th Jun 2021, 21:13
With regards to Dan Air charter operations from NCL, my first flight was NCL-MAH in September 1991. All I know apart from the about,( I was six years old at the time) is that we boarded via the ventral air stairs. Can anyone confirm whether this would have been a 727 or a 1-11? I believe both were based at Newcastle in 1991.


I’m pretty certain it would have been a 727-200 in 1991.

DA Bac 1-11 holiday flights from NCL to the med may have ended by then - they’d mainly been for Intasun (went bust early 91) and Airtours who would have used the based 737-400’s and 727-200 in 91.

I think I still Air North mags from the time if you have some dates could find regs of aircraft.

The Flying Stool
9th Jun 2021, 22:32
Sounds like a 727 in that case. Thank you for your help!

Webby737
10th Jun 2021, 17:40
I doubt it will ever happen but I've wondered if it would have been feasible/practicable/doable to reconfigure the 727 cockpit to a two-crew layout. Airbus managed it with the A300, thereby dispensing with the Flight Engineer.

I guess with enough money and patience it would probably be possible, after all many of the systems on the B727 are very similar to the B737-200, just three of everything instead of two.
UPS, who spent an absolute fortune upgrading their -100s by re-engining them with RR Tays, fitting a glass cockpit and a HUD kept the flight engineer (the cockpit resembled a B737CL but with a flight engineers panel) so I would assume getting rid of the FE was either too expensive or involved too much paperwork.

Mooncrest
10th Jun 2021, 20:16
I guess with enough money and patience it would probably be possible, after all many of the systems on the B727 are very similar to the B737-200, just three of everything instead of two.
UPS, who spent an absolute fortune upgrading their -100s by re-engining them with RR Tays, fitting a glass cockpit and a HUD kept the flight engineer (the cockpit resembled a B737CL but with a flight engineers panel) so I would assume getting rid of the FE was either too expensive or involved too much paperwork.

Thankyou Webby.

rog747
11th Jun 2021, 14:03
rog747, next time you find yourself at 18E/30S, please pm me. I'd love to buy you a glass or two of the lekker local vino and take you for a spin out of Stellenbosch Flying Club! Now back those wonderfully elegant 727's

Now that is some offer!

We were due to be in CPT last year end of March - April 2020 staying the last week at the Mount Nelson and jumping on the Cunard QM2 to sail home to SOU but sadly the world fell apart and all was cancelled.
The QM2 has been sitting out here in Weymouth Bay or over at Torbay now for over a year.
We have rebooked the same trip with Cunard for April 2023 - So fingers crossed then it would be a pleasure to see you then, thank you!

My sister wants to do a Safari before CPT, and I want to see VIC Falls and stay at the famous old hotel.
So Plan A is fly LON to NBO and 3-4 nights in the Masai Mara then fly to VF for 2 nights, then on to CPT.
I know there are parks in the Kruger but I do love Kenya.
Unless you have any Kruger tips?

The BA58/59 Ahhhhhh 747 heaven.

TCU
11th Jun 2021, 18:20
Now that is some offer!

We were due to be in CPT last year end of March - April 2020 staying the last week at the Mount Nelson and jumping on the Cunard QM2 to sail home to SOU but sadly the world fell apart and all was cancelled.
The QM2 has been sitting out here in Weymouth Bay or over at Torbay now for over a year.
We have rebooked the same trip with Cunard for April 2023 - So fingers crossed then it would be a pleasure to see you then, thank you!

My sister wants to do a Safari before CPT, and I want to see VIC Falls and stay at the famous old hotel.
So Plan A is fly LON to NBO and 3-4 nights in the Masai Mara then fly to VF for 2 nights, then on to CPT.
I know there are parks in the Kruger but I do love Kenya.
Unless you have any Kruger tips?

The BA58/59 Ahhhhhh 747 heaven.
rog, we are in danger of creating our own travel vlog here, so just a quick diversion:

In the Mara stay at Ol Seki. Save the wonderful landscape and wildlife, if you do your transfers from Wilson with Air Kenya, you are likely to get a ride on both the DHC-7 and DHC-6!

Kruger - go to North Kruger, fly into Hoedspruit with Air Link and stay at Rockfig....simply wonderful. As an aside, not only was Hoedspruit AFB the main forward air base for one of those secret SA border wars, but it was also an emergency Space Shuttle landing strip.

.....now back to Seven Two's

Flightrider
11th Jun 2021, 20:27
With regards to Dan Air charter operations from NCL, my first flight was NCL-MAH in September 1991. All I know apart from the above,( I was six years old at the time) is that we boarded via the ventral air stairs. Can anyone confirm whether this would have been a 727 or a 1-11? I believe both were based at Newcastle in 1991.

The Summer 1991 ATUK book shows the only Dan-Air flight between Newcastle and Mahon was a Thursday operation for Airtours Holidays on a 727-200. DA2158 outbound, aircraft flew a W pattern to Glasgow and returned late Thursday evening as DA2159. Unless there were late season changes (always possible) then you’d have been on a 727-200.

NCL base was a 727 and a 734 in 1991. No sign of any 1-11 charter flying in the plan.

GBYAJ
12th Jun 2021, 08:56
The Summer 1991 ATUK book shows the only Dan-Air flight between Newcastle and Mahon was a Thursday operation for Airtours Holidays on a 727-200. DA2158 outbound, aircraft flew a W pattern to Glasgow and returned late Thursday evening as DA2159. Unless there were late season changes (always possible) then you’d have been on a 727-200.

NCL base was a 727 and a 734 in 1991. No sign of any 1-11 charter flying in the plan.


Under the guise of nostalgia these are the Dan Air movements through NCL in June 91.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/e9891da6_0bac_4cda_978b_6cda657548ed_896275279060f39c35911b8 674596e2f7c49e700.jpeg


ps I’ve just had to clear out my childhood home so have been reunited with what I’d kept from the late 80’s early 90’s . Will make its way to the tip shortly…

WHBM
12th Jun 2021, 11:14
What were Dan-Air using at the time on their Newcastle-Gatwick trunk route ? Were they still on the One-Eleven, which overnighted at Newcastle and did some night Mediterranean charters, or had they moved on to the 146-100, which I think latterly was run from the Gatwick end morning and evening, the wrong way round for typical business travel demand ?

But for consistency with this thread, not a 727. I do believe they in some seasons actually scheduled the 727-200 on odd Gatwick-Aberdeen flights (like Monday morning/Friday evening) expected to be in high demand.

GBYAJ
13th Jun 2021, 07:54
[QUOTE=WHBM;11060862]What were Dan-Air using at the time on their Newcastle-Gatwick trunk route ? Were they still on the One-Eleven, which overnighted at Newcastle and did some night Mediterranean charters, or had they moved on to the 146-100, which I think latterly was run from the Gatwick end morning and evening, the wrong way round for typical business travel demand ?

looks like things were changing in summer 91, night stopping 1-11 500 for LGW which operated 3 times a day plus a night stopping 146 which went to MME-AMS -TXL but didn’t return until late night. Braathens had taken over the Norway routes so no DA flights through the day to Bergen, Stavanger and Oslo. The 748 flight to BFS had also stopped. But at least there were daily 727 flights to keep it on topic!

TCU
13th Jun 2021, 18:35
Something not yet covered on this thread, but worth a reference, and well covered elsewhere on PPRUNE threads, is the story of the 727 arriving on the British register for Dan Air and in particular the hoops, that a certain Mr DP Davies made The Boeing Company jump through to get the -100 Certified......

Indeed, the downside to this story is the politics that allowed that Dan Air -200's to be registered without the physical stick shaker mods of the -100's.....the ghost of Mr Davies I'm sure winced when the MAX had its issues....

I'm not a great thread starter myself, but surely the Widebody [Euro] Holiday Jets thread is close to hand.....

SpringHeeledJack
13th Jun 2021, 20:49
I'm not a great thread starter myself, but surely the Widebody [Euro] Holiday Jets thread is close to hand.....

You could be courting trouble there ;-)

browndhc2
14th Jun 2021, 05:48
Under the guise of nostalgia these are the Dan Air movements through NCL in June 91.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/e9891da6_0bac_4cda_978b_6cda657548ed_896275279060f39c35911b8 674596e2f7c49e700.jpeg


ps I’ve just had to clear out my childhood home so have been reunited with what I’d kept from the late 80’s early 90’s . Will make its way to the tip shortly…

GBAYJ please re consider dumping the NCL movement logs. Its Gold dust to nerdy anoraks like myself. I am sure a good home could be found for them.

Back on topic I recall seeing the Dan 100/200's passing through Lasham on check including the ill fated BDAN. Somewhere I have a slide of GBNNI in Sabre livery arriving at the Hampshire airfield. Unfortunately not having a slide scanner it is going to be difficult to post it.

browndhc2
14th Jun 2021, 06:07
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1291x758/51246618514_a7bd31b7ae_o_d_7ae3ae5e9996e5a04440e0ca0ab46d91b 75ce350.jpg


NI arriving at Lasham during October 1996. Not the gratest picture taken quickly in poor light. Does any body know the significance of the name "Lady Patricia" carried on the Aircrafts nose?