VA Reemployment

[Barrt3344]

What’s the latest with the VA reemployment policy? Has it been shortened to 5 years or does the initially agreed 7 years still stand?

What sort of numbers are being looked at for the recent round of recruitment? I find it highly frustrating that a recent base balancing was completed awarding very junior pilots the most sought after bases. It seems like only the most undesirable bases will be offered to people being reemployed.

Which brings me to my next point, what is the point of a seniority list if it doesn’t apply for the process of applying redundancies or for the preference of bases when being reemployed?

Qantas seems to have played their cards right and have treated their staff with respect and dignity. Seniority remained and staff could to retain their base and fleet with the option of secondments to other subsidiaries for work. If only VA could have done the same.

[tipan13]

You are to lucky to be coming back.... there a lot of people that that are disadvantaged by redundant pilots coming back. Some pilots that have been with the company for well over 10 years will never get the base of their choice or carrer progression.

Here you are banging on about potentially missing out on a base of your choice..... whiilst there are many junioir pilots, VANZ and TT crew that might never get a chance to come back.

How about you show some decency and respect to your fellow colleagues, this isnt all about you.

Dont expect to welcomed back with open arms, This past 12 months has allowed us all to experience first hand the selfishness and self righteousness that many of you have displayed. A classic example being the creation of this thread.

[ad-astra]

Barrt3344

5 or 7 still being 'discussed' I believe.

Have not heard of any 'recruitment' but am usually the last to know.

Regarding the 'Base Balancing' are you really suggesting that remaining VAA pilots should be sacked because they are in the wrong base and redundant pilots re-employed to fill the vacancy?
Are you also suggesting that VAA cannot move pilots voluntarily between bases whilst not increasing the total number of pilots?

I really think you should consult your relevant union/association to get an accurate understanding of what the GDOJ list, the various EBA's and the redundancy agreements offer us ALL.
I am not sure "seniority" is a Virgin buzz word.

You might like to check with the Qantas guys and gals as to how equitably they have all been treated.

If you want to vent on PPRune that's fine (not healthy.. but fine), but if you want the facts talk to your union/Association.

[anonfly]

Personally I think it’s fantastic that the company allowed base transfers as for the next 5yrs any chance of promotion or base transfer has gone.
But I digress to answer your question no one knows.
I’ve heard rumours of possibly 100 pilots over next year. I don’t think the company knows to be fair. Situation is very fluid as you would know with borders and demand etc

[turbantime]

So after making a decent salary and not working all too hard, getting paid out a redundancy, you now expect to walk in to the base of your preference when there are no additional roles required?

You do no favours to the wide-body group for whom I have a lot of sympathy for.

[Double_Clutch]

What’s the issue when one has been made redundant and paid out their entitlements, as to what bases remaining pilots are assigned? Really only affects those pilots who are active? Ahhh, so you are also expecting those more “junior” pilots to keep the seat warm for you, when you decide to waltz back in?

Interesting comment about “Undesirable” base - as opposed to no job? So you want to cheery pick from the outside … gotcha! Let me guess, you are also expecting a Command position in the base of your choosing and you just want someone to relinquish their position for you, due to entitlement after being made redundant?

I am sure those who were made redundant had a “choice” to either bid onto the wide body fleet, stay on fleet or bid off it. We all make choices each day - some work out, some not.

What bases people are assigned shouldn’t affect those external to the business who have been made redundant (as crappy as it would be). Once redundant - all previous “entitlements” are also redundant.

Guess those, current at VA, may have some factual information rather than those of us on the outside.

[t_cas]

Just checking in after reading such a positive title.

Not surprisingly, it would appear that the original poster either does not work (or has never worked for thread title) and is completely clueless on the mechanics of what has happened and what is intended.

My perception, from reading some of these threads, is the pilot group Harbors a high population of skilled people who cannot or will not engage in facts.

As has been stated by one poster. Engage your union or representative, know AND understand your contracts. When systems are established in order to balance fairness with integrity, do not then seek to destroys the wisdom of long term development for superficial gain. This attitude will only serve to further erode the industry.
The colleague you so willingly seek to destroy today, may be the paramedic who turns up to save your life tomorrow.

[Blueskymine]

Seems a bit rich.

Your senior colleagues who took the promotions they were entitled too, got the base commiserate with their seniority, along with possibly training many of you, got screwed.

They are sitting on the sidelines without a job, because your management didn’t do what it was supposed to do. Manage.

So yes, they are entitled to feel a little hard done by as the young bucks base balance into their positions and when the time comes, they’ll end up in a junior base in a junior position until they can use their seniority to buy a better lot.

Covid has been cruel. To many. Remember we are all just trying to get ahead, feed our families and save a little for the end of the road to see out our golden years in peace.

The sooner they are all back, the sooner your airline has recovered and the sooner you’ll be able to get a promotion that is earned with your seniority.

Crumbs and cake. Don’t waste your time chasing the crumbs.

[Redundantpilot]

Looks like they are looking at 44 Left seat and 44 Right seat to return by October 👍

[Barrt3344]

Well looks like they’re picking up 88 pilots. That’s a good start. A long way to go yet to pick up the approx 900 they let go.

There were plenty made redundant with 10 years service who didn’t get massive payouts. They were working their way up the list and taking opportunities like everyone else only to see it all come undone due to poor management and a lack of respect for the pilot group. Again, Qantas have managed to keep this level of respect for their crew where virgin haven’t. Here’s hoping a shortage of pilots kicks in once again and everyone can return to their rightful position.

[Colonel_Klink]

They were working their way up the list and taking opportunities like everyone else only to see it all come undone due to poor management and a lack of respect for the pilot group. Again, Qantas have managed to keep this level of respect for their crew where virgin haven’t. Here’s hoping a shortage of pilots kicks in once again and everyone can return to their rightful position.

What on earth are you on about lack of respect to the pilot group. A lack of respect of the pilot group didn’t lead to a whole bunch of senior guys being made redundant - it was the simple fact that Virgin went into administration resulting in their being no more WB aircraft (or ATR, Tiger or NZ Operation) and the fact that both the NB and WB EA’s are crystal clear - a pilot made redundant in one operation (read WB) is unable to displace or force the redundancy of a pilot in another operation (read NB).

You’re also clearly clueless about QF Group management as well, considering over the past 12 months:
- They have close the PH JQ base, and made their pilots shift base, all at the same time that Network was recruiting A320 pilots (and these positions weren’t given to former PH JQ pilots)

- JQ 787 pilots have been stood down and the company has basically said they won’t be allowing them to transfer back to the A320 operation because they will need them ‘at some stage in the future’, yet there is the very real possibility that JQ will also be recruiting externally into the NB operation whilst the 787 guys are still stood down

- You’ve got QF LH pilots (especially those on the 747 and 380) who are still stood down with no foreseeable time that they will be back at work in their substantive positions, and QF outright refusing to offer these guys a redundancy.

Suggesting QF management are respecting their pilots and doing all the right things by all of their pilots, and at the same time sticking the boots into Virgin management for complying with Enterprise Agreements proves you’ve got NFI what you’re talking about. 🙄

[Tommy Bahama]

Obviously nothing has changed in regards to revolting and poisonous culture at VA.

[ad-astra]

Tommy,

The Colonel has explained the situation both inside and outside VAA succinctly and way more restrained than I could have.
Whether the 'audience' it was meant for even heard the message is up for debate. I doubt it.

I am not sure your suspicion of the VAA culture is accurate.
From what I have seen there has been a tremendous amount of compassion and understanding throughout the pilot group.
A tremendous amount of frustration, fear of the future and anger at "THE" situation as well, but we are far from revolting.

Yes some uneducated and unrealistic views persist but as Bart's only sensible comment so far mentioned, we have a good start with 88 roles to be filled as of yesterday.
The policy's and agreements that Bart is so ignorant of, ARE bringing back our fellow pilots. Hopefully quickly.

[t_cas]

When I first read this forum starter I thought it was a piss take!

But as some enjoy the view from Planet Entitled I thought I would answer some of the points.....

What’s the latest with the VA reemployment policy? Has it been shortened to 5 years or does the initially agreed 7 years still stand?

Well I guess that would depend on your definition of agreed. If that means was it agreed with the inclusion of the B737 population then it was never agreed, it was apparently agreed between the unions, the wide body pilots and some of the management pilots who were apparently wide body pilots themselves. Interesting if they were discussing re-employment onto B737 without B737 being included. Can anyone shed light on this?



Less frustrating than not having a job? Second, what a company does with its employees is of no business to those who aren't employed. You may not like the reality but if you were made redundant and paid out all your benefits then you are not an employee. If there was no recruitment involved then maybe getting people where they would rather be at the same time as the company getting its bases balanced is a good thing in my book. Desirable base vs not desirable? If you are serious here then wake up!!! If you get to come back after being made redundant, especially if it happens in the next few years then the idea that you can just pick and choose has no argument that is even vaguely appropriate.

It would seem that being brought back and being able to slot back in will mean you have enjoyed every benefit of your seniority whilst employed then get to come back and do it again...... this time it will inevitably come at the expense of the future career prospects of people who have worked very hard on the domestic operation..... yet you presume to demand the highest rank in the best base? On what moral and ethical grounds could you make that demand?



For an ex employee? I would image there is no point in one because you aren't employed. Unless I am missing something the majority of companies who have them use them for selection and promotion, which if you were on the wide body you benefited from. Redundancy is a business decision and generally if you were most junior you were tapped first. In this case multiple EAs were dissolved and the operations with it. If the operations and EAs remained then most junior would go but if the whole operations get removed so do the EAs and the crews. You don't get to demand the removal of people on another EA to make room for you, if it was allowed it would have happened! Didn't happen at Qantas on the B767!

If you get a chance to get re-employed then the only thing i can tell is that the seniority you once had could be used to pick the order in which opportunities are offered. I doubt that would include being able to 'cherry pick' the rank and base and I would also assume that you would then be considered the last pilot on the type as you are a new employee.

Lastly, I think you might find Qantas offered re-deployment as an alternative to redundancy. I think Virgin would have done the same if the option was there but the whole aviation world was imploding so it would have been an option.

In summary, if you get to go back then congratulations, you have a job unlike the thousand others who don't that would be happy in any rank in any base..... check your entitlement and muster some perspective!!

Hell of a first post.

inflammatory, inaccurate and emotive.

The mechanism and negotiated terms that INCLUDED ALL the redundant pilots, has delivered its first positive news. Given the entire calamity; this should be a positive sign for the entire industry.

[turbantime]

You’re all very lucky that a re-employment deed actually exists. I’m sure if Bain had their say before they bought the company, they would not have agreed to it. From a pure business perspective, it would be much cheaper/easier to re-employ ex-VANZ/Tiger B737 pilots who are relatively current over re-hiring guys pushing 60 and having to retrain them on to the 737.

[galdian]

I wonder who will fly the wide bodies when they reappear?

Will that be before or after Bain cash out of VA leaving VA either soaring as an eagle or about to hit the goat??

[Cypher]

You’re all very lucky that a re-employment deed actually exists. I’m sure if Bain had their say before they bought the company, they would not have agreed to it. From a pure business perspective, it would be much cheaper/easier to re-employ ex-VANZ/Tiger B737 pilots who are relatively current over re-hiring guys pushing 60 and having to retrain them on to the 737.

It wouldn't matter if they wanted to re-employ VANZ Tiger VARA etc. The re-employment mechanism is all via the group date of joining which those units are a party to. Most of the VANZ pilots are in NZ and most probably won't move to Australia which would involve packing up and moving during a pandemic. Most, but not all, everyone's situation is different. There's no mechanism to reinstate those old contacts. I would expect to be re-employed back on the same EBA as everyone else.
I'm still interested in seeing how they're going to get their ZQN RNP-AR certification back in time for September.

It will be interesting to see how far 88 positions would go down the GDOJ list, taking into account people that have retired now and others that don't plan to come back.

[Barrt3344]

I would think that quite a few VANZ pilots would make the trip over the ditch should an opportunity arise to fly. There aren’t any flying jobs going in NZ or the rest of the world atm. Any flying opportunity would be a good job in current times if they didn’t have alternative employment. But who knows. If they get that far down the list, that would be a great result to begin with.

On the topic of the wide bodies - All the ex long haul drivers will be frozen again on the 737 so it will be interesting to see who takes the wide body slots when they arise. Could end up having some junior guys a fair way down the list taking those slots if the new eba doesn’t meet the conditions of the narrow body eba.

[t_cas]

I would think that quite a few VANZ pilots would make the trip over the ditch should an opportunity arise to fly. There aren’t any flying jobs going in NZ or the rest of the world atm. Any flying opportunity would be a good job in current times if they didn’t have alternative employment. But who knows. If they get that far down the list, that would be a great result to begin with.

On the topic of the wide bodies - All the ex long haul drivers will be frozen again on the 737 so it will be interesting to see who takes the wide body slots when they arise. Could end up having some junior guys a fair way down the list taking those slots if the new eba doesn’t meet the conditions of the narrow body eba.


it is clear you do not have the facts. Yes it is a rumor network, your language suggests you have knowledge of the facts. You do not.

[turbantime]

It wouldn't matter if they wanted to re-employ VANZ Tiger VARA etc. The re-employment mechanism is all via the group date of joining which those units are a party to. Most of the VANZ pilots are in NZ and most probably won't move to Australia which would involve packing up and moving during a pandemic. Most, but not all, everyone's situation is different. There's no mechanism to reinstate those old contacts. I would expect to be re-employed back on the same EBA as everyone else.
I suggest you re-read my post as you’ve completely missed the point I was making.

[slice]

What ‘facts’ doesn’t Barrt3344 have ? I don’t read anything in that post that is not at least in the realm of possibility.

[Icarus2001]

it will be interesting to see who takes the wide body slots when they arise.

I suggest that you do not hold your breath waiting for wide body ops.

[PammyAnderson]

Well great news to see the top 100 or so coming back. I don’t forget that it was all of you who quite literally started this company from day one. I wouldn’t have been here if you hadn’t. Tough **** to all the wringers out there. Can’t wait to shout you guys a coffee when your back. 🤙

[greenslopes]

Well great news to see the top 100 or so coming back. I don’t forget that it was all of you who quite literally started this company from day one. I wouldn’t have been here if you hadn’t. Tough **** to all the wringers out there. Can’t wait to shout you guys a coffee when your back. 🤙
That's the spirit! What a refreshing attitude.

[Barrt3344]

Well great news to see the top 100 or so coming back. I don’t forget that it was all of you who quite literally started this company from day one. I wouldn’t have been here if you hadn’t. Tough **** to all the wringers out there. Can’t wait to shout you guys a coffee when your back. 🤙
+1
Also a shoutout to the early guys and gals at VANZ, Tiger and the ATR who helped set up the operation but unfortunately ended up in the same boat as everyone else not on the narrow body. They’re all deserving of an early return but unfortunately were associated with the wrong business entity and are a fair way down the pack for reemployment.

[Chadzat]

And especially to those ATR guys and girls who had a B737 position award already but either elected to stay ‘behind’ to help with T and C requirements or were ‘capped’ from moving off the fleet to take up their position. The ability to take up their position if vacancies on the 737 arose expired at the end of March 2021 ( with the later redundancy option) and here we are only 2 months....60 days later and there are now 737 vacancies.

Unbelievably consistent bad timing and luck for these pilots.

A bit of perspective on both sides is required here. To those 737 pilots who have kept their jobs in VA - some appreciation of just what it feels like to receive that redundancy letter and not having another flying job for x amount of months would go a long way. To the WB guys on the first few pages - you cant just waltz into a base of your choice at the expense of pilots already on the fleet, be happy that you are able to get a job back in VA within 12 months.

The only way pilots will be able to keep the bastard VA management in line is for all to abide by the established policies and EBA provisions. You can be sure Bain will try and water those down to the maximum in the future.

[non_state_actor]

The only way pilots will be able to keep the bastard VA management in line is for all to abide by the established policies and EBA provisions.

The only "fair" system is a in-line strict seniority system. Unfortunately with 5 types that is just to expensive to run. Every other alternative is just a work around and will end up screwing people over somewhere. The problem with the current arrangement is the ever shifting sands of what the actual rules are. People make career decisions on information at hand only to have it torn up a year later.

[PoppaJo]

A few of my colleagues have said they will never take a widebody seat ever in their careers ahead. I work with some who had aspirations in coming years. I have asked the same question and all have no interest. Too risky. Political unrest could cause disruptions on that front at some point in the medium term. Those younger I work alongside all had the same view, they could get caught out toward the back half of their careers, in the 50s, and be forced into early retirement. Meanwhile I stuck to domestic narrowbody and will remain employed for 40 years on retirement.

Safest Job on this land, aside Tiger, is narrow body domestic. But someone’s gotta haul the big stuff around I guess.

[DUXNUTZ]

Well great news to see the top 100 or so coming back. I don’t forget that it was all of you who quite literally started this company from day one. I wouldn’t have been here if you hadn’t. Tough **** to all the wringers out there. Can’t wait to shout you guys a coffee when your back. 🤙


How do these ‘100’ slot into the operation? Not having the long haul eba in front of me do they maintain their Group DOJ or back in at the bottom???

[V333]

I am staggered but not surprised at the level of venom and vitriol delivered by some contributors, aimed directly at the WB pilots who lost their jobs. They were, by and large, the back bone and foundation of Virgin Blue in the early days and earned their stripes on the larger aircraft. If the shoe was on the other foot, I bet those same contributors would be belly aching the loudest about loosing their careers, incomes, self esteem and who knows what else. How about a bit of RESPECT for those who paved the way for many of those to follow only to have the rug pulled from under their feet through no fault of their own...

[PammyAnderson]

How do these ‘100’ slot into the operation? Not having the long haul eba in front of me do they maintain their Group DOJ or back in at the bottom???

they don’t slot in as said. They bid (as can anyone in the company or on the inactive list) as they are additional slots. Yes they maintain their seniority / GDOJ as per all the EBAs
reemployment clauses that’s been in place for 20 years.
great to see them all back 👍🏻

[DUXNUTZ]

they don’t slot in as said. They bid (as can anyone in the company or on the inactive list) as they are additional slots. Yes they maintain their seniority / GDOJ as per all the EBAs
reemployment clauses that’s been in place for 20 years.
great to see them all back 👍🏻


Great news.

[Double_Clutch]

I’m hearing that the recruitment for the recently announced positions (85-90) has been put on hold as the current crews are still not at 100%

[Goat Whisperer]

Of course existing crew need to be utilised to 100% before more crew are added to the roster but consider this:

The crew at the top of the list, first cabs off the rank will need several months to requalify to 737. Most haven''t flown it for 7-10 years so re-recruiting will need to run out months in front of utilisation of existing crew. Once existing crew get to 100% it's too late to start retraining. And there is finite sim availability.