Cabin Baggage Weight Restrictions

[BRUpax]

Why can't airlines agree a STANDARD max weight for cabin baggage. At the moment it varies between 6, 7, 8 and 10 kilos depending on the carrier.

[christep]

More than that... as a Diamond Marco Polo on CX I can take up to 23kg as cabin baggage, composed of:

A standard case: 22 x 14 x 9
A garment bag or soft bag not exceeding 8" thick

Together with the duty free these two cannot exceed 15kg.

Plus a laptop bag not exceeding 4kg
Plus a briefcase not exceeding 4kg
Plus a camera, umbrella, etc.

Not that I would ever dream of taking that much onboard, but I can if I want.

[bealine]

In answer to the question, there are too many variables:

1. Type of Aircraft (a Jetstream 41 as used on LGW-LBA services has absolutely no cabin baggage stowing facilities) a Bae146 or Avro RJ100 has almost no overhead bin space between rows 7 and 14.

2. Class of Travel

3. Size of bag (Weight sometimes belies volume!!!)

4. Whether flight is full or not!

5. Safety concerns. Virgin Atlantic still stick to their guns on this one (and I wholehearteldly agree) and will not allow wheelie bags in the Economy cabin.

For those who pooh-pooh the last comment, many of the poor passengers who died in the British Midland M1 crash a few years back would be alive today had no cabin baggage been carried!

Early in my career, I remember meeting a charter flight from Alicante that had encountered a little turbulence en-route. A couple of Duty Free bags with bottles had fallen out of the overhead bins and, believe me, the cabin resembled a battlefield with scarlet streams and flecks everywhere! Fortunately, the injuries were mainly superficial, but the sight is one I will never forget when it comes to recommending CBBG check in!

Additionally, a lot of the security delays at airports worldwide result from the amount of Cabin Baggage going through X-Ray scanners. Next time you wait at Central Search, time how long each wheelie bag takes to go through! You'll be amazed!

:rolleyes:

[Alpha Leader]

And then you've some airports, such as MEL, where many foreign airlines have to resort to ground handling by Qantas, whose renegade check-in agents appear to deliberately enforce their personal cabin baggage restrictions rather than those of the airlines they are checking in for:(

[cabinkitten]

I remember operating back from the USA in late Sept last year when the only thing that a pax could bring on board was a teeny-tiny plastic bag... bliss.....we boarded in half the time and come pushback I wasn't left burried underneath a pile of samsonites.

On a safety note I've seen just how sturdy the overheads are during severe turbulence...as ever its the thin line between passenger satisfaction and safety.

[Boss Raptor]

On the one hand as an operator I get fed up off constantly having to replace overhead bin latches as they have been forced closed by oversized rather than overweight hand baggage...

On the other hand a 5kg hand baggage allowance is not realistic...when I travel on business my flightcase contains my notebook computer, which I am not allowed or prepared to put in the hold, a few personal items and my passport, wallet and tickets...it weighs 7kgs...all the rest of my files are packed in my suitcase and checked in as hold baggage...

Some of the items I see checked in as 'hand baggage' especially in the US really do take the pi**!

[Shadowpurser]

I can't comment on why weight allowances are different - but I'd say a rule of thumb for youself is if you can put it into an overhead locker without straining yourself it's ok.

It's a dilema when a little old lady brings on a bag that weighs more than her, then asks us to put it in a locker for her.

I have friends who have been off work for months becasuse of helping PAX with their luggage. We're not supposed to but we do it because we feel guilty about saying no - and if you do say no then you don't get a very friendly response and feel as if your not doing you most for them.

:rolleyes:

[christep]

Thanks for reminding me of one of the many reasons why I don't fly BA if I can avoid it. I was absolutely gobsmacked the first time I heard a BA cabin crew refuse to help a foreign pax with their luggage. It was so embarrassing to be British at that point - all the worst union inspired "more than my jobs worth" that Mrs Thatcher tried so valiantly to get rid of.

All I can say is that on airlines that understand customer service (and frankly most of these are Asian) such a response would be totally alien to their nature. You regularly see Cathay girls literally climbing on armrests to help pax get their luggage up into the lockers, despite the fact that physically this is much harder for them than for the average BA Cabin Crew. Surely, if you can't lift a 10kg bag into an overhead locker then you are not physically fit to be cabin crew? I certainly wouldn't want someone that weak to be responsible for getting injured pax out of a burning plane.

[mainfrog2]

There is a reason why these are anonimous forums and I think christep has just proved why.

Your starting to get a bit boring fella.

My policy is to help with hand luggage, but, if you can't physically lift it don't expect someone else to injure themselves for you, as ea passenger your quite happy to watch your beloved Cathay crews climbing on seat arms to put peoples bags in lockers. I would be more embarrassed to watch cabin crew put my heavy cabin baggage in the locker for me.

Damn just realised I should have shown that last post the contempt it deserved but I couldn't help myself.

[Pax Vobiscum]

Boss Raptor

Definition of "carry on" in the US = anything that's not too heavy for three men to lift! I've personally seen a set of golf clubs + a wheelie bag that must have arrived in a pick-up truck being carried on board. And if you're not one of the first 6 onto the plane (through the traditional scrum) all the overheads are magically full! What baffles me is that in the nature of things lots of these pax must start/finish their journeys on small commuter aircraft - what happens to their gear then?

My carry on (for European flights) is one large suit bag + a laptop backpack (which is about 7kg but just fits under the seat. I've not had a problem yet ;) .

[PAXboy]

Airlines will not enforce their own rules until it is proven that people have died during an evac and the FAA/CAA mandate that the rules be followed.

All carriers know that most pax abuse the rule and turn a blind eye as they fear that the pax will then book elsewhere. Which they probably would.

I consider the problems of overloaded top lockers as very serious and is one of the reasons that I try to avoid the aisle seat. It has been well reported that injuries from items falling from overhead lockers are worse for the aisle seat.

I support mainfrog's observation of christep. If you cannot carry on your own bag and place it in the locker - then no one else should have to. The exceptions are for the elderly and infirm. My mother is 76 and only five foot tall, so I do not expect her to be able to put her (very light) case in the locker.

[christep]

Clearly I'm only suggesting that cabin crew should help people who are unable to lift the bag themselves. This could be elderly, infirm, or even just short people - on a widebody particularly if you are only 5' tall you aren't going to be able to reach the bins. A lot of people in Asia are only 5' tall.

However, what the CX crew have to do most often is shuffling bags that already in the lockers into a neater arrangement so that more can be fitted. Personally I am perfectly happy for cabin crew to move my bag around in this way, but I am distinctly unhappy for other pax to do it.

I am interested in mainfrog's rationale as to why I have just proved the case for anonimity. I assume this is because if I was not anonymous then BA cabin crew would take to spitting in my food or something?

I was a BA Gold member for 4 or 5 years by the way, before I realised that there are better options.

[bealine]

Christep - BA's policies often leave a lot to be desired, but I will defend the issue of Cabin Baggage and your atrocious comments concerning my colleagues!

The motto is very simple

"If you can't carry it or lift it, CHECK THE B***ER IN!".

The Cabin Crew are on the aircraft first and foremost to look after YOUR safety. Your assistance, personal comfort and serving of food and drinks is a secondary function only to their main safety role.

I have personally witnessed a DC10 (not British Airways I have to say) long haul flight cancelled with 300 pax overnighted at Gatwick because a Cabin Crew member was taken to hospital after a back and shoulder injury resulting from helping a passenger stow a heavy cabin bag. That poor Cabin Crew member has never been able to fly again and is permanently injured. Her airline refused to give her sick pay and has refused compensation because "lifting passengers bags is specifically excluded from her duties!" BA also specifically states this in my Customer Service Contract and specifically states this in Cabin Crew terms and conditions.


Having said that, I have never refused help to elderly, disabled, unaccompanied mums with children and I don't know of any of my colleagues, on the ground or in the air, who would refuse either! Indeed, our Customer Relations Department receives more "thank you" letters for excellent customer service than "Disgruntled of Dorking" type correspondence!

If you're a Fat Cat Business Traveller earning ££££K+, you can afford a little injury every now and then. On our pay, we cannot!

I suggest you engage your obviously miniscule brain before hitting the keyboard! Stating that you realised there were "better options than BA" without actually quantifying your argument is not only bad form, it leads one to suspect ulterior motives for choosing Far East airlines, or that you''re trying to liven the forum up a bit!!!

Remember, that for every on "bad apple" among the staff, there are a hundred good 'uns!"

:rolleyes:

[Tiger]

Well said bealine!

Yes I will help the elderly and the infirm gladly, however, what about the paxs who packs "the world" in their cabin baggage!!

I would also like to point out IT IS NOT THE WEIGHT of the bag which can damage a persons back...lifting 10 kgs isn`t a problem but having to put, reach up turn or twist with a weight can.

I have NEVER seen any cabin crew ever spit in anyones food and thats after flying for 15 years for 3 airlines!

But the Ground Staff regularly get spat at, sworn at, even kicked, grapped by paxs and by GOLD card holders too.
So lets not generalise??

[OzPax1]

In fact it usally IS the business and card member's who shout at and abuse ground & cabin crew..! And it's usally about those wheelie bags..!!:mad:

[timzsta]

Aircraft size has a lot to do it. A long haul operator (ie Virgin) has big aircraft, big overhead lockers, so bigger hand luggage allowance. A short haul BA146 operator has small aircraft, small overhead locker, so smaller cabin allowance.

The problem often comes with the amount of carry on luggage people want to take. A handbag, a carry on samsonite, "no young man I am not checking in my laptop case", duty free, camera and so on. By the time passenger 25 is on board there is no space left in the overheads.

[BEagle]

Before 9/11 I used to travel with a single piece of luggage which met the '115 cm length plus width plus height' guideline. In fact it totals 106 cm and I bought it specifically to avoid theft from baggae handlers and delay at arrival terminals.

One day, despite having travlled with it on the same route with the same carrier (buzz STN-FRA) 4 times previously, I was told that it was too big for the cabin. This surprised me, so I did some research on cabin luggage limits:

Lufthansa (Economy) 55 cm x 40 cm x 20 cm (Total 115 cm) 8 kg

British Midland (Economy) (Not stated) (Total 115 cm) 7 kg

Go 55 cm x 40 cm x 20 cm (Total 115 cm) 5 kg

RyanAir 51 cm x 36 cm x 23 cm (Total 110cm) 7 kg

Easyjet 45 cm x 35 cm x 20 cm (Total 100 cm) 5 kg (plus ‘Duty Free and, for example, laptop computer')

buzz 45 cm x 35 cm x 15 cm (Total 95 cm) 7 kg

There is a fair difference between these airlines - and I never did get a rational explanation from buzz regarding their pitifully low limit. Isn't it about time to have an agreed - and enforced - industry standard? I suggest 115cm total and 7 kg max. And no damn wheely-bins!!

[Sharjah Night Shift]

Continental like to enforce the rules on what passengers can carry on to make room for the crews suitcases in the overhead lockers.

[Shadowpurser]

Your attitude to cabin crew is contemptable and I for one will not miss you on any of my flights.

I'm quite happy to help the little old lady with her handbag.

ALSO I do help people with their bags if they are having problems as I am a guy who goes to the gym and can lift a fair amount without a problem - AGAINST COMPANY RULES may I add - as I do believe on going that extra mile as it is what makes us different to our competitors.

HOWEVER I am not common amoung crew and most of my collegues are girls/ladies who are not up to lifting a club passengers wheelie bag full of wine and whisky bought from duty free.

As I said previously and also as you quite correctly pointed out - we have to be fit to opperate the doors. If your back has been put out or you have a slipped disc because you were kind enough to help someone with their wheelie makes you unfit to do this task. It also makes them unfit to work and they spend the next few months recovering at home on minumum money whilst having to spend what little they are getting on a chiropractor.

And what I'm saying is not fantasy - unfortuanately it's something I've come across with collegues a few times who "just wanted to help". We have mortgages to pay - should we risk our being able to work because someone is inconsiderate enough to overload their bag but not prepared to put it in the hold and wait an extra 5 minutes at the luggage belt?

It's also a safety issue having bags that are too heavy in the locker - should such a bag fall out on top of your head during bad turbulence you may find yourself not able to be able to get into a club seat on your own ever again because your paralised from the neck down. You may want to think about that next time one of your fellow passengers struggles to put his bag in the locker above your head.

[christep]

It's all very predictable from the BA cabincrew here isn't it? I'm sorry this is so long, but let me try to "quantify" as Bealine suggests what makes a difference to me as a frequent passenger, and why I choose to fly on, for example, CX rather than BA.

Shadowpurser: what makes you different from the best of your competitors includes:

- going on about how things are "against company rules" as if we who pay your salaries should be grateful for the privilege of flying with you, rather than you grateful for the privilege of our custom. This doesn't just happen in forums like this (where I guess it is more or less acceptable - though it doesn't help BA's image in my view) but also on the plane, where, frankly, I would have thought the rules should be:
1. The customer is always right
2. When the customer is wrong, Rule 1 applies

- claiming repeatedly "we are here primarily for your safety" as an excuse for not doing anything more than "the rules" require you to do; this is necessary but by no means sufficient to win business from the competition. Building a reputation and track record for safety is a requirement to get people to fly on your airline, but frankly BA and all its major competitors meet most peoples' criteria for "acceptably safe". Once you are over this threshold, you don't win against the competition by battering on only about safety - you do so by excelling on the customer service aspects.

- apparently collectively having spines that are more susceptible to damage from a 10lb bag than those of other airlines (but then again, having lived in the UK for many years I am well-acquainted with that peculiarly British trait of "doing a sicky"). Lifting the bags of someone who for whatever reason is having difficulty is not "going the extra mile" - it is part of the basic service level for high-class airlines (see below for real examples of "going the extra mile")

- smiling and appearing to enjoy your job about 1% as often as some other airlines

- (this isn't just cabin crew) sticking religiously to check-in rules, and frankly, often being just plain ignorant and agressive about it; as an example, at a QF checkin in Sydney recently (perhaps unfairly I regard QF and BA part of the same stable - they are generally pretty similar in their customer service attitude) I walked up to the First check-in, politely said "Good Evening" and presented my economy class ticket and OneWorld Emerald FF card. The response was "You can't check in here - go stand in that line over there". No "Good Evening", no "please". I politely asked her to confirm that as a OW Emerald I could not check-in there and she eventually consulted a colleague at the next desk who confirmed that I could. But there was no word of apology or anything - she simply continued being grumpy at me, and then started whinging about cabin baggage rules (which I won't go into again here).

I contrast this with as a purely random example, my experiences on a flight last night from Taipei to HK.

- I was checked in for a late flight, but I rushed to the airport in the hope of getting one of the earlier ones. I arrived at the checkin desk 30 mins before one flight, was greeted with a smile and a "Good Evening" and asked if I could still get on it (despite official checkin closing being 40 mins). Immediately, the girl picked up a phone and made two calls: one to the despatchers (I guess) who said yes in principle, but that I wouldn't have a meal, and one to someone who could see the lines at outbound immigration to estimate whether I would be able to get through there. She then gave me the option of that flight or one leaving 30 mins later. I took the latter since I wanted also to check out the new lounge, and needed some food after a long day. Unfortunately all the legroom seats were taken, so without being asked she blocked the seat next to me to give me more space. When CX says they do this, they really do and it has always been empty - on BA they said they would do it, but it never seemed to happen reliably.

- when I got on the flight I was greeted by name immediately on reaching my seat by the Purser for the economy cabin who introduced herself (with the wonderful name of Bunny, as it happens) and offered to take my jacket and hang it

- once we were in the cruise the CSD also came down (in those very elegant black dresses that CX CSDs have, with the pearls - although I guess you have to have the body to match - I can't imagine them on some of the BA CSDs, particularly the female ones ;) ) and introduced herself (Jean, for what it's worth); she asked me if I would like some champagne brought back from business for me (which I declined)

- when the meal service came round, I asked for red wine; the CSD overheard, and went up the front and brought me some of the Bordeaux from up there rather than the cheaper stuff

- on leaving the aircraft, the CSD, again addressing me by name, offered me some mints

None of this is exceptional - I was flying in economy on a flight lasting an hour and a bit, and it is nearly always like this. I am not in any way a special customer except insofar as I am CX Diamond member (equivalent to BA Gold). I spent a few years as a BA Gold before moving out here, and in all that time I only ever got this sort of level of service from BA when travelling First on long haul, and by no means always then.

I am not a huge spender on travel - I guess I spend about US$10-12000 a year of my money and about the same of the company's money each year on flights. Because of service like I describe here it all goes to CX if they fly where I want to go (which is HK - Europe quite often), and I will often go a little out of my way to take them. I guess the people who "set the style" at CX regard that as a good return on their effort, but the people who "set the rules" at BA don't think it is worth trying.

By the way, before the outbound in the morning I had a full, complimentary breakfast in the airport lounge, including their wonderful eggs benedict and other cooked options. The Wing is in a league of its own.

Despite all of the costs in providing this excellent service, CX has nnver been subsidised, and it has made a pretty respectable profit for 9 of the last 10 years.

However, just to show that I am not blinkered about CX, there are two major areas where they are behind their competitors:

- the new business class seat is frankly very poor compared to the BA Club World; on occasion if I know I am going to have to sleep then I take BA just for that

- the Marco Polo Club FF scheme is way behind some others such as AAdvantage in the benefits it offers (though it is not much different from BA in most respects)

Hopefully that gives some "quantified" examples of what I regard as excellence in customer service.

[Rwy in Sight]

If my memories serves me right few years back BA declared its intention to help create and enforce a global cabin size regulation. I don't know the results.

The issue I feel is that when a slf sees another slf to go through with a huge carry on while he had to put his on the hold, next time he will be adamant about taking his in the cabin at the next flight.

And then again we have the issues of baggage delivery being constantly being late late late. Some times it is takes longer for the the baggage to be delivered than the flight. So a carry on is an attractive option.

Rwy in sight

[Tiger]

er...not been off sick for 10 years now, and we are informed that back damage can happen as I previous have said. Lifting any weight incorrectly can damage a back.

I was helping a woman on a flight with her bag on a CDG-LHR. She was late boarding so locker space was differicult to find as the flight was pretty full. The bag was very heavy and I offered to help her. Yes I`m 6`2 and of med. build.

I said we would lift the bag together after the count of 3. As I started to lift she let go and the bag dropped to the floor., pulling me down and renching my arms and back. OK I didn`t hurt my back but easily could have. Some paxs jumped due to the thud of the bag hitting the floor. Her answer to me, "I should go to the gym more!"
So we can all relate stories on board.

As for Frequent Flight "class status" ie Blue, Silver, Gold etc or any other name they wish to call it. Its a thank you for using a particular airline, and gives you a reward. It does don`t mean the higher you go the more the cabin crew become your personal servant.

[christep]

"As for Frequent Flight "class status" ie Blue, Silver, Gold etc or any other name they wish to call it. Its a thank you for using a particular airline, and gives you a reward. It does don`t mean the higher you go the more the cabin crew become your personal servant."

This is exactly my point - when you reach top tier on Cathay they certainly DO give the impression that the cabin crew are, as you put it, my personal servants for the duration of that trip. This is the essence of good customer service - making the customer feel special and valued. As a result I am a happy customer and I spend more money with them and their business flourishes. Every response from BA people here just emphasises the fact that this concept is so completely alien to you that you can't even comprehend what excellence in customer service really means.

[Tiger]

Who said anything about working for BA?

And most other airline crews who work for BA have come from the other airlines of the UK and Europe, due to T&C.

I agree that a customer is treated correctly and good customer service is excepted, but it is two way. Do you treat your customers well?

I am polite friendly and helpful, I respect people who have paid high fares as well as the cheaper fares. But you are trying to compare two different cultures, a Far East and European, I`ll even give you British. US carriers the cabin crew (flight attendant) tell you to "SIT" you sit! they aren`t unpolite but they take no prisoners. The Far Eastern culture is more servile that Western.

I`ve worked for 3 airlines over 16 years. Also in a travel agents as a customer service manager. I even worked for BR (British Rail).
You have a choice of airlines and on most of the major routes in the world are served my at least 2 carriers.
I spent many years operating 1 route, BHX-BRU, which had two carriers operating it. BA, and British Midland. Sabena came a long later. As you are aware full fare tickets are interchangable between carriers. On the flights we would get BA paxs on BD, BD paxs on BA etc and some didn`t care who they used (flight time only 40 mins) others would prefer the other airline. Your tails of other carriers are not new and airline staff hear them all the time. Only the other month a businessman told me all about the service he received from a rival carrier. I listen smiled etc and ask all the right questions. I then said I`d worked for that rival and glad they were still doing a good job. He look surprised.

When we meet a new person/date etc when out for a drink, within the first 30 minutes we get to hear about the flight from hell with this airline that airline....if they want to know you better we hear how fab your airline is....
:D

The last person I met told me horror stories of Singapore Airlines.

But you have a choice of airlines, you dislike BA because the crew don`t become your personal servant. However, your comments regarding BA crew spitting in your food is disgusting and I doubt would EVER happen.

I leave you with 2 of my tails of woe.

I went to pick up my partner from a Business Dinner. My partner was making a big purchase from another company. So the food and drink flowed freely. At the end of the evening I appear with the car, as they were shaking hands and doing there Good byes.
On the way home I was asked how my day had been. Good I said, except for the paxs who chucked his bag at me and was all in all not particularly pleasant on the flight home.
The man shaking hands with my partner didn`t recognise me as I was dressed in jeans and a shirt. No uniform.

The point I make isn`t the person but the airline you dislike.

On an EMA-EDI flight a paxs boards and get very upset because his bag has to go in the locker for take off and landing, sat at row 1. He made my life very difficult and whatever I tried to do was going to be wrong, I used the paxs name etc. A few months later I was looking at Personal Pensions. A guy turns up at my door and hands me a Business Card. Name seemed familar....and it all came back. He asked the various questions like name, job etc.

I wonder if he knows why I didn`t take a personal pension plan with him.

Like I say you have choices and I gather you dislike BA. Sorry to hear, but crew members from many airlines have tried to explain and say why, what, where, who and I`m pleased you have found an airline which pleases you. We hear many happening onboard. Places like Pprune enable you to voice and express opinons. The airline industry has had many problems in the last year, and alot of pressure internally and extenally have been pressed on to airline staff. The whole working world has been tipped upside down, inside out and put though the mangle. It comes down to expection. A paxs on a Ryan Air flight who paid 49p put up with a dirty tray table but the paxs who has paid £30 on BA would not.

At the end of the day we are human with different cultures and views, even us with that suit on, or the CX cabin crew in her long black dress which you noticed. She even goes home puts on a pair of jeans has a large G+T picks up the kids....

[christep]

Tiger,

Thanks for your reasoned and reasonable comments.

Just to clarify the point about spitting in the food, this was meant as an exaggeration, obviously, to try to understand mainfrog2's comment about "christep's comments show why this board is anonymous" (which I still don't understand). I haven't actually made any efforts to be anonymous here - my profile is set to allow visibility of my email address, and from that you could even download my CV off the web if you so desire (though it seems that the board is somehow set to override this preference and maintain global anonymity on email addresses).

Apologies for assuming everyone posting as cabin crew was BA; I realise I had no grounds for that assumption, and I can't comment on other UK airlines since I fly them very infrequently.

I'd also like to clarify that I don't think BA is awful in absolute terms, and I don't actively dislike them - I just don't favour them. I do think it is a long way behind CX in its "service ethos", and maybe yes this is a Euro/Asian thing. On the other hand it is a long way ahead of other airlines (the late, un-lamented Sabena as was, comes to mind - though I haven't flown it in its new incarnation). And clearly it is in a completely different league from airlines that I will not fly on because they don't clear my "safety threshold" - CI, KE, AI, etc.

But at the end of the day, where airlines are in direct competition on a route, at more or less the same price, it is the relative service quality that counts. And with the exception of the Club World beds, on HK - Europe BA is a distant second to CX.

By the way, the long black skirt is what the pursers wear. The Inflight Service Managers have a fairly short, simple, but very elegant black one piece dress, with a matching jacket.
http://www.cathaypacific.com/cx/internet/cxinternet/image/en/cxgallery/85_uni-3d.jpg

[PAXboy]

I should like to thank the folks for taking the time to give the background detail to their points of view. The pax dropping the suitcase at the right/wrong moment leaves me astounded but then reminded me of a comment I heard 20 years ago.

I was working in a posh London hotel, The Aldwych. I don't know how fany it is these days as I have never darkened it's doors since leaving. However, chatting to one of the porters, he said that the problem at an hotel was that, "As soon as people walk through the door - their hands drop off and they can't carry anything."

That sums up the expectations of some people in hotels. They WANT to be waited on, hand and foot. They consider that is what they are paying for. Naturally, I am not suggesting that is what christep is expecting. BUT his expectations will be different to mine and yours. It may well be that BA could win all the awards in the world and he would still prefer CX. I don't know.

Once again, thanks for the insight - from both sides.

[Shadowpurser]

Although you have spent your time talking about this and that and how BA is the big bad airline that doesn't appreciate it's passengers business and service is not as good as Cathay - which is all very well informed - and as an experianced traveller you are probably in a very good position to comment. I'm sure Cathay is fantastic.

But

Thread is about baggage not how bad BA is and how good Cathay is. You have not expressed any opinions or thoughts on my collegues who were off for months. You have not put forward any solutions on what should happen if this situation occurs in future. what exactlywould you do if you were a 5ft 2 stewardess of slight build asked to help with an overweight wheelie? If it was them lifting your bag and they ended up injured becasue of it - would you pay the loss in wages if they were off for a month of two?

What should we do? Your obviously an inteligent man with lots of ideas on how things should be done so tell us what we should do that will keep our passengers happy, keep the company happy, keep the union happy, and keep both you and us safe.

I await your answers....

Also I don' t fly WW, I fly out of LGW on european routes where we pride ourselves on our personal service we try to give - and we often get comments from passengers that we are more friendly than our LHR collegues and have a more younger vibtant approach. I value all our passengers and ensure in my briefings that my crew do to, my file full of complement letters will also support this.

All I want to do is to get to a sensible conclusion to this debate - the one about baggage.

[christep]

Shadowpurser,

What I would hope happens is that the airlines provide medical cover for their employees injured while in the course of their duties. Mine certainly does - if I do my back while, for example, carrying a computer monitor to a new desk then I would get medical cover, paid sick leave and so on. If, in extremis, I had to retire on grounds of ill health then there is a pension arrangement.

I would hope that airlines work the same way. The difficulty, as I understand it from the UK (BA?) case is that the airline provides "rules" that explicitly forbid cabin crew from helping passengers with their luggage. In this case they can then claim that you were acting against the company's instructions and they therefore have no liability. Clearly there has to be a line drawn somewhere, but in my opinion BA has clearly drawn it in the wrong place.

I have no idea what arrangements CX has for its cabin crew in this regard, but I would be quite interested to find out if anyone with knowledge is reading here.

It seems reasonable to me that any policing of carry-on baggage that is needed should be done well before the passenger gets to the plane. One possible solution which is implemented by Cathay (sorry to bring them up again) at Hong Kong is that they will offer some categories of passenger (premium class and FF) an "orange tag" to put on oversize carry-ons. What this basically does is:
a) gets you past the people with the bag measuring/weighing devices at the entrance to air-side
b) makes it clear that your bag is over-size, that carriage in the cabin is at the sole discretion of the cabin crew, and that you are basically on your own when it comes to man-handling it.

In this situation, the airline should then cover the cabin crew for any injuries sustained while handling untagged baggage, and gives the cabin crew something they can point the passenger at if the bag is tagged and they feel unhappy handling it.

Of course, there is nothing to stop the passenger removing the orange tag once past the weigh/measure device, and I don't have an easy answer to that, except that presumably the fact that an orange tag was issued is entered on the passenger record at check-in, and any passenger caught removing one could be barred from getting one in future.

By the way, just for the avoidance of doubt, I have never asked any cabin crew for assistance with my baggage - I am 6'3" and perfectly able to sort it out myself. And on plenty of occasions I have helped other people with theirs.

[Shadowpurser]

We to get bags tagged at the gate - but as you quite rightly say people do take the tags off on the way to the aircraft.

We also are in no way covered if we are injured due to helping passengers with their baggage, however we do try to be flexible and help when we can.

I go to the gym regularly and always say to my crew if anyone does need help to come a get me and I'll lift their bag for them. I used to work for B&Q and had to lift bags of cement and 3m long worktops for little old ladies there - god knows what happened when they got home!!!

Now this is great for me and my crew and my pax as they are all happy and everyone has what they want. Problems occur on the return sector when you get a crew of girls not as strong as myself. Then the pax with the same heavy bag is not as understanding when there are apparent double standards.

It is a tough issue and myself and my crews do try to resolve it as best we can. You may notice at check in and at boarding gates the baggage size checking and weighing machine. (chrome and blue thing with all the weights and allowances on it). Unfortunately it never seems to get used and sits collecting dust.

I remember once checking a friend in on an internal US flight - He asked if he could take his bag on board - the check in assistant pointed at a wooden rectangular box and said "If you can get it inside that it can go on - if not if goes in the hold!" cut and dried. Inflexible - but hey we knew where we stood!

The more we try to give and the more flexible we try to be - the more people try to take more. It's a tough call but it is the minority that spoil it for the majority who do realise we're trying to do them a favour but insist on taking the **** even more.

Ah well - guess I'll just have to keep going to the gym.

Hope to see you flying SH out of LGW soon Chrisstep. I'd love to have the opportunity to restore your faith in our company. I realise it has it's problems and as my manager says when I go up to complain "big wheels move slowly". Over the past 5 years since I've been with the company we've employed some great people who really do care about the company and the passengers - in contrast to those who may have been with the company for umpteen years but cannot afford to leave because they will not get the same cash they are on now in a job on the ground.

But hey - I'll just keep doing my bit - and hopefully one day get to the dizzy heights of CSD or higher!!! Who knows?

[luoto]

OF COURSE if airline reclaim was a bit more efficient, if airlines took responsibility for the items (i.e. theft, damage) and they stopped all the thieving, many wouldn['t mind checking stuff in...

[bealine]

Only problems there:

1. As fares get lower and lower, liability limits will need to be no more than the actual fare paid.

2. A cheap. disposable camera worth £3.99 suddenly becomes a 5.1 megapixel digicam worth £2, 000, with some passengers (present company excepted, I hope!) when it comes to making a claim!

;)

[luoto]

Bealine: true in part. But if you know you have to pack valuable items perhaps there could be a means to lodge a list with the airline including serial numbers (and copies of receipts). The idea might need some thinking but upon check-in I'd much prefer to declare x, y and z and be prepared for a random check.

I guess it only needs to be like how they manage travel insurance in part. It could be two ways. If I don't have the paperwork I have to pre-prove what I've got, else I show the proof post-event. Or just generally make the 'security' a lot better and 'handling' easier (I appreciate theere is so much luggage already).

Don't claim I've the answers. but then I've not been paid to think about it either ;)

[bealine]

christep - My apologies for earlier cutting remarks! You have put your point across succinctly and, whilst I don't have to agree or like what I read, I can now appreciate your points of view.

All too often, and I have to say it is a trait peculiar to the British, we run our own country, businesses and people down with no justifiable reason. Indeed, most Brits currently KNOW they get crap service with Easyjet and Ryanair, but they just LOVE "Auntie BA" getting her face rubbed in the dirt!

Give us a fair and level playing field, and BA has the best people and the best resources to wipe the floor with every other carrier in the world! I know this in my heart, 'cos I work with those people and resources nearly every day of the week! When we "stick to the rules", it is, believe it or not, because WE CARE about the well-being of ALL our passengers, not just the one selfish b****** who wants everyone else's bag offloaded so he can get his 18kg bag on board!

Is it just me? ...or has anyone else noticed that, as we move towards this new "classless" society so beloved by Thatcher's Britain, the new generation of "inverted snobs" who dump their soiled McDonald's wrappers on the check-in desk and say "Wotcher mate, 'ow about an upgrade den?" are the very ones who expect ME to act as the company's servant!!! They want to move forward into the 21st Century but expect everyone else to step back in time to the 1930's!!! I suggest you ponder a while, christep!

What has happened is that, in the interests of "Free Enterprise", these upstarts offer "no-frills" - equally, they only want the pax with 2 arms and 2 legs, they don't want wheelchair pax, they don't want unaccompanied children, they don't want "Meet and Assist" type pax (maybe your 90 year old grandma!).

Running a successful airline means looking after all your souls - not just the "card holder"!

I can criticise BA with the best of them, but I cannot tolerate unjustified bad-mouthing!

christep - I hope you will accept my apologies and I hope, one day soon, you will fly BA out of LGW - I really think you might like what you find! :cool:

[PAXboy]

bealine, if I may, that was very handsome of you (as we used to say!).

I know that BA staff are good and I always enjoy travelling on them. The reason that they are not my first choice of long haul is very simple: I do not like your management. In particular, I do not like the way in which they treated VS and the whole dirty tricks thing. It was very short sighted of them as they already had such a wonderful airline, they did not need to fear VS!

I also detest their recent purchase of Manx Airways (as much as I detest BMI for dumping them). There are a few other points as well!

I am buying other good products, rather than your good product. I have no doubt that BA will not miss my money, or be moved by the odd voice in the crowd.

Your faith in your colleagues is grand, particularly after the way in which LGW has been treated by BA mgmt.

[christep]

Bealine - thanks for your apology; let's move on.

I have reflected on what you say, and I think the fundamental problem is that because of the "class" history of the UK there is now a widespread mindset that makes someone providing a service (i.e. a servant) as somehow inferior in the mind of many people receiving the service. Personally I don't see it this way at all - I respect anyone who does their job to the best of their ability, particularly in a service industry where you have to take all sorts of grief from customers. I'm pretty sure I couldn't do it with the consistent professionalism of the good cabin crew out there.

I don't have an easy answer to this perception problem, and it does distress me when I am in other parts of the world and I see some of the worst aspects of this British "yob culture" being exported. Of course this is not unique to the UK, and other cultures have similar difficulties, particularly when the person providing the service is female. I know my girlfriend (who is Chinese) has similar feelings when she encounters some fairly uncouth Chinese abroad.

Anyway, I know, because I have experienced it quite a few times, that on its best days BA is as good as any and far better than most of its competitors. Certainly my experiences of all the US-based airlines I have flown and most of the Euopean-based ones is that they are way behind BA in their average level of service.

BA is the only airline I have ever been on where the CSD has had the whole aircraft laughing, and this has happened more than once, though BA seems, unfortunately, to have cracked down a bit on this recently.

The fundamental problem with the BA service as I see it (and others say this regularly as well) is its variability. Attempting to quantify this, putting flights in categories of service (and I am lumping together here short haul mainly in Y and long haul in J:

BA: 10% excellent, 40% good, 30% just OK, 20% poor
AA: 5% excellent, 10% good, 70% just OK, 15% poor
QF: 5% excellent, 50% good, 25% just OK, 20% poor
CX: 50% excellent, 40% good, 10% just OK, 0% poor

I do about 80% of my flying on OneWorld, and together these cover about 400 flights over the last 4 years, during which time I have been Emerald on at least one OW airline, so I realise that in some cases this means I get better service than average.

I accept what you say about BA having to provide service to everyone, not just the "card holders", but I also hear messages from BA Management that they want to focus on their premium customers. As I have shown with the CX example, both on the ground and in the air they still have some way to go on the top customer recognition (or maybe they are defining the top segment very narrowly and I don't qualify - I bet BA Premier Card holders get special treatment).

The only European airline I have flown which I have to say did beat BA on average and in its consistency was LOT Polish, which I flew a lot about 5 years ago.

By the way, the last time I flew BA out of LGW was to Malta in Y (well X actually) last October, which was fine, once I got over the disappointment of there being no cable/satellite TV in the BA lounges so I couldn't see the six nations game that I had got there specially early to watch. (Yes I know this is not totally under BA's control.) The pax mix on the Malta flights is a bit odd though - it was like going on a Saga holiday tour; we must have been more or less the only pax on the plane under 50!