ISTAR Air Wing stands up at RAF Waddington

[chopper2004]

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[dctyke]

Air Commodore in overall charge next 😉

[NutLoose]

Or a posh way of saying we have a glut of Group Captains.

[pr00ne]

Excellent! More Group Captains per station, that's what we need...

[Timelord]

Hard to say what is more irritating; doubling the number of Group Captains or the use of “standing up” .

[NutLoose]

"Commander air wing".......Hmmmm now... wasn't there a similar sounding rank specifically designed for that role... :rolleyes:

[Toadstool]

This was mooted about 3 years ago at Waddo. I remember it being stressed, countless times, that this wasn’t a drive to have more Gp Captains. I call bull****.

[The B Word]

This is so that non-Aircrew (are we allowed to say blunties these days?) can be Station Commanders at flying stations. So, as they can’t be in charge of flying and be its Duty Holder (DH), then you have to generate a further Gp Capt as the DDH. An Aircrew Stn Cdr can be CO and DDH, but a non-Aircrew officer can only be CO and so you have to have another Gp Capt, that is Aircrew, to be held responsible for the flying.

The replacement of the Stn Cdr by a non-Aircrew officer has already been announced: https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/senior-appointments/

Group Captain M D Lorriman-Hughes OBE to be Officer Commanding Royal Air Force Waddington in January 2022 in succession to Group Captain S P Kilvington

Simple explanation, but by crikey have we made things difficult for ourselves...:ugh:

[NutLoose]

Why does he need to be a flier to run a station, British Rail does not require theirs to drive the trains and BTW the two photographed have a wing each, he does after all have an o/c Ops and o/c Eng under him, surely the ability to delegate hasn’t been lost in the RAF that much. The previous head of the CAA managed without any flying experience.

[MPN11]

Why does he need to be a flier to run a station, British Rail does not require theirs to drive the trains and BTW the two photographed have a wing each, he does after all have an o/c Ops and o/c Eng under him, surely the ability to delegate hasn’t been lost in the RAF that much. The head of the CAA manages without any flying experience.
Nothing new. An Air Trafficker was Stn Cdr at Shawbury a few years back. And I’m sure other examples exist.

The B Word summed it up neatly. And it’s also work-load sharing, especially now XW has such a complex organisation.

[BATCO]

From RAF News, "The ISTAR Air Wing will comprise the flying Squadrons, Air Support Wing, Air Engineering Wing, Number 1 ISTAR Wing and the ISTAR Operational Conversion Unit."

Surely, 2 or more flights make squadron, 2 or more squadrons make a wing, and 2 or more wings make a group.

Batco

[NutLoose]

Odiham, three helicopter squadrons plus an OCU and permanent detachments in NI and Belize in the 70’s

Brize , VC10 Sqn, Belfast Sqn, a pair of Britannia Sqns , plus Para Training, RAF Regiment Sqn, Base Hangar, Bomb storage, U.K.mams, hotel in the 80’s

all with one Staish. And I’d hate to think of some stations during the war, have you ever seen how big Brize was?

[Melchett01]

Why does he need to be a flier to run a station, British Rail does not require theirs to drive the trains and BTW the two photographed have a wing each, he does after all have an o/c Ops and o/c Eng under him, surely the ability to delegate hasn’t been lost in the RAF that much. The previous head of the CAA managed without any flying experience.

He doesn’t - isn’t Brize now run by an Engineer? Didn’t the previous CAS also pointedly ask which other organisations chose their CEO on the basis of their hand-eye coordination when they were 18? Times are a changing. Some things for the better, others not necessarily so - have you seen how the Admin Branch has basically been turned into a bunch of call centre operators?!
But if we are now shifting towards genuinely putting the right people in to senior jobs for the right reasons other than a safe pair of hands, surely that’s a good thing?

[NutLoose]

That’s almost double the current station size.Brize during the war, those are hangars top right and that’s aircraft parking all the way down to the bottom.



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[Jobza Guddun]

How does a Wing include other Wings? Presumably someone decided we've got enough Groups already and fudged it?

[mcdhu]

Wasn't there a period at the now defunct RAF Lyneham when the Harry was an Air Cdre (Lamb?). That didn't last long.
mcdhu

[NutLoose]

He doesn’t - isn’t Brize now run by an Engineer? Didn’t the previous CAS also pointedly ask which other organisations chose their CEO on the basis of their hand-eye coordination when they were 18? Times are a changing. Some things for the better, others not necessarily so - have you seen how the Admin Branch has basically been turned into a bunch of call centre operators?!
But if we are now shifting towards genuinely putting the right people in to senior jobs for the right reasons other than a safe pair of hands, surely that’s a good thing?

Is it a good thing? Why does it need a second Group Captain the run the flying side, surely a Wing Commander as in o/c ops can and has held that position in the past for decades, a Station Commander should be promoted on merit to post regardless of his trade, to put a Group Captain under him to run ops smacks of overmanning in that rank and surely can cause problems within a stations structure if you have two that do not get on. It seems an expensive alternative at a time of shrinking budgets to satisfy jobs for the boys, it also must reduce the chances for Wing Commanders to prove themselves in post and further their careers.

[pr00ne]

Odiham, three helicopter squadrons plus an OCU and permanent detachments in NI and Belize in the 70’s

Brize , VC10 Sqn, Belfast Sqn, a pair of Britannia Sqns , plus Para Training, RAF Regiment Sqn, Base Hangar, Bomb storage, U.K.mams, hotel in the 80’s

all with one Staish. And I’d hate to think of some stations during the war, have you ever seen how big Brize was?

But When Brize Norton had those units the Station Commander was an Air Commodore.

And during WW2, Bomber Command stations were clumped into Bases, commanded by an Air Commodore.

[Bob Viking]

Haddon Cave.

To all those that ask why we need two Gp Capts it is a result of the fallout from the Haddon Cave report.

Someone has to be accountable nowadays and the structure they fit into is the Duty Holder (DH) construct. The Senior DH is CAS. The Operational DH is the relevant AOC. The Delivery DH is a Gp Capt and is usually the Stn Cdr.

In simple terms when risks are identified someone has to be the grown up who is responsible for holding that risk and would be the person in court at any subsequent inquest. They need to prove they have taken all meaningful steps to minimise risks. If the Stn Cdr doesn’t have the authority or budget to minimise a risk it gets pushed up the chain. Tornado Collision Avoidance System is a good example of when an identified risk gets elevated due to budgetary restraints.

So, when a Stn Cdr has a requirement to be responsible for the risks associated with operating an aircraft it just isn’t possible (argue all you like but I’ll never agree with you) for a non aircrew person to assume that role.

Take Coningsby as an example. Would you really expect an Admin Branch Gp Capt to be the person responsible for the safe delivery of Typhoon Operations? When a new risk is identified would that individual have the knowledge and authority to decide how best to manage that risk and ultimately sit in a court of law to defend themselves?

The Admin Branch Gp Capt is absolutely capable of running a station but I will never believe that they could be a suitable DDH. Hence the two Gp Capts when required.

I realise it’s not a system that existed in the RAF of yesteryear so some people will struggle with accepting it. However, I happen to think that the Air Safety world and the DH construct (despite the initial resistance of everybody!) is a vast improvement on what came before.

BV

[Wensleydale]

The deployable ISTAR forces at Waddington used to be No 34 Expeditionary Wing. A quick re-name and a job for another Group Captain.....

[alfred_the_great]

Haddon Cave.

To all those that ask why we need two Gp Capts it is a result of the fallout from the Haddon Cave report.

Someone has to be accountable nowadays and the structure they fit into is the Duty Holder (DH) construct. The Senior DH is CAS. The Operational DH is the relevant AOC. The Delivery DH is a Gp Capt and is usually the Stn Cdr.

In simple terms when risks are identified someone has to be the grown up who is responsible for holding that risk and would be the person in court at any subsequent inquest. They need to prove they have taken all meaningful steps to minimise risks. If the Stn Cdr doesn’t have the authority or budget to minimise a risk it gets pushed up the chain. Tornado Collision Avoidance System is a good example of when an identified risk gets elevated due to budgetary restraints.

So, when a Stn Cdr has a requirement to be responsible for the risks associated with operating an aircraft it just isn’t possible (argue all you like but I’ll never agree with you) for a non aircrew person to assume that role.

Take Coningsby as an example. Would you really expect an Admin Branch Gp Capt to be the person responsible for the safe delivery of Typhoon Operations? When a new risk is identified would that individual have the knowledge and authority to decide how best to manage that risk and ultimately sit in a court of law to defend themselves?

The Admin Branch Gp Capt is absolutely capable of running a station but I will never believe that they could be a suitable DDH. Hence the two Gp Capts when required.

I realise it’s not a system that existed in the RAF of yesteryear so some people will struggle with accepting it. However, I happen to think that the Air Safety world and the DH construct (despite the initial resistance of everybody!) is a vast improvement on what came before.

BV

the problem with that line of thinking is that the flying types are also accepting responsibility for things they have no SQEP in - infra risks in particular.

which is why the DH organisation should have a “senior operator” and a “senior engineer” to provide that SQEP to whomever does hold that risk.

[Timelord]

I am being a devil’s advocate here, but surely the question is not; “Can an admin branch Gp Capt make decisions about flying operations?” - the answer is clearly no. But can a flying branch Gp Capt make decisions about the non flying aspects of running a station , given that the whole point of the rest of the station is to support flying operations ? Probably yes, indeed that is how the RAF has run thus far. So, maybe the agenda here is more Stn Cdr jobs for non aircrew, and thus more opportunities for higher rank thereafter. This can be debated but my personal opinion is that very few non aircrew understand how all aspects of the service come together to deliver air power. Maybe a couple of years as a Stn Cdr alongside an Air Wing Commander will improve that understanding or maybe there will just be a power struggle.

[morton]

The event was worthy of note and there was obviously a lot of faffing about to get all the Aircraft in position. So why did these gentlemen not wear their uniforms and give some gravitas to the proceedings instead of turning up in their work overalls?

[Toadstool]

Now there is a Senior Operator, ISTAR Force Commander, OC ISTAR Air Wing, Stn Cdr, Air Commodore AWC (yes I know it’s another unit) and OC BSW. Great opportunities.

[sangiovese.]

Now we have a Senior Operator, ISTAR Force Commander, OC ISTAR Air Wing, Stn Cdr, Air Commodore AWC (yes I know it’s another unit) and OC BSW. Great opportunities.

Must be a struggle parking outside the mess then with all that rank. Unless they have e-scooters too?

[NutLoose]

And who gets what quarter.

In the Civi world you can have an accountable manager who knows squat about engineering but it is his responsibility and might not even be in the same building let alone city..

[frodo_monkey]

The event was worthy of note and there was obviously a lot of faffing about to get all the Aircraft in position. So why did these gentlemen not wear their uniforms and give some gravitas to the proceedings instead of turning up in their work overalls?

I assume you’re referring to No 14 dress? Or perhaps you’re just proving yourself blunt…?

[MPN11]

I assume you’re referring to No 14 dress? Or perhaps you’re just proving yourself blunt…?
As a self-confessed former Blunt Officer, I feel there is a point to be made here. Let’s be honest, extracting Aircrew from their Grobags is as difficult as getting the intact kernel from a Brazil Nut.

But ... when it’s Grobag handover time, with airframes in the background, No. 14 Dress (I assume that’s the correct term) may well be appropriate. Possibly better than No. 1 HD in an office shaking hands with cheesy grins towards the camera, with Sqn Silver/Standards displayed in the background briefly before being returned to safe storage.

I wish I could think of an intermediate setting.

[NutLoose]

I still think they missed a trick on the paint scheme, I realise that the white is there for temperature control et cetera, but with a minor tweak they could have added the lightning flash similar to the VC 10 at the front end as you’ve got the colours there, white grey and blue. And that would’ve made it an RAF scheme as opposed to looking just like a cast off American aircraft.

[popeye107]

Why not look externally for people to run Stations? Half the idiotic decisions made by Gp Capt rank could be avoided by someone with business sense and acumen. An engineer, aircrew or logistics senior rank has no more idea on how to run a Station than an area manager for Tesco or Wilco.. in fact they have more of a proven record than any SO to run a budget and keep things efficient and managed at the correct level.
At times the RAF seem to take management as an experiment for the ****test idea. Note I cannot use the word leadership, because it’s seemingly a conceptual idea so far.

[The B Word]

Just to throw a little grenade into the argument trench of the positives of non-Aircrew running stations - “cos they know what they’re doing, as they’ve been doing it for years”.

The replacement Stn Cdr in the link above is an IntO. How much training does an IntO get over above that of Aircrew? [I’ll give you a clue... none]

The other thing that hasn’t been bottomed out. The Stn Cdr is the CO - ie. they (note gender neutral NutLoose - as officers aren’t all “he/him” these days) are the top of the pinnacle for discipline on station. So when Aircrew need sanctioning under QR1027 for failure to get or attain Combat Ready, how is the CO going to do this when it requires Aircrew in the chain to do this (the top of that chain being the CO)? This is the problem with all this change at the moment, it’s so poorly staffed, rapidly rushed in as a so-called “sprint” and mainly comes from the 3-star’s and 4-star’s fag packets. The 2nd and 3rd order effects are just missed... Detail? Bzzzzzzzz! That’s for someone else to sweep up after I’ve done my 2 year stint...

[The B Word]

Why not look externally for people to run Stations? Half the idiotic decisions made by Gp Capt rank could be avoided by someone with business sense and acumen. An engineer, aircrew or logistics senior rank has no more idea on how to run a Station than an area manager for Tesco or Wilco.. in fact they have more of a proven record than any SO to run a budget and keep things efficient and managed at the correct level.
At times the RAF seem to take management as an experiment for the ****test idea. Note I cannot use the word leadership, because it’s seemingly a conceptual idea so far.

Oh great, outsource it some nameless face brought in from industry for profit? That’s worked really well for things like “Pay as you Starve” or “Defence Housing Executive” hasn’t it. The best thing about using your own people is that they are invested in the problems - it is likely affecting people they have known for years, and so they really care about the outcomes. Some of the best COs and Stn Cdrs I have ever had knew the majority of the people on their station as they had all progressed together over the years. Parachute someone in to manage it will lead to a similar disaster to any of our current outsourced services.

No Thank You...

[Countdown begins]

Oh great, outsource it some nameless face brought in from industry for profit? That’s worked really well for things like “Pay as you Starve” or “Defence Housing Executive” hasn’t it. The best thing about using your own people is that they are invested in the problems - it is likely affecting people they have known for years, and so they really care about the outcomes. Some of the best COs and Stn Cdrs I have ever had knew the majority of the people on their station as they had all progressed together over the years. Parachute someone in to manage it will lead to a similar disaster to any of our current outsourced services.

No Thank You...

Well, what is your solution? More of the same?

You appear devoted to an organisation that thinks nothing about spending £90,000 on electric scooters. That’s a successful idea, cannot wait for the press to tune into that one.

[The B Word]

I don’t know, in the grand scheme of things £90k is peanuts. Probably an hours flying time in a F35 at full cost. So, you have a bunch of personnel that get an opportunity to have a bit of quirky fun on an electric scooter on the station (as these aren’t allowed on public roads), potentially rubbing off some of the virtues of greener transport, and also see how effective they are.

Or we could all be whiny gits, harrumphing into our bath sheets in our whicker chairs because someone else has got a better deal. Sometimes we need to take a bit of ownership of our problems, be positive, and not wait for someone else from outside to come and save us (hint - they won’t). :cool:

[NutLoose]

B word, when I was mentioning He, it was simply because the two people involved are male, I do recognise that their are female senior officers as well and rightly so, it was just I was in the thought realm of the present and future staff.



. So when Aircrew need sanctioning under QR1027 for failure to get or attain Combat Ready, how is the CO going to do this when it requires Aircrew in the chain to do this (the top of that chain being the CO)? This is the problem with all this change at the moment, it’s so poorly staffed, rapidly rushed in as a so-called “sprint” and mainly comes from the 3-star’s and 4-star’s fag packets. The 2nd and 3rd order effects are just missed... Detail? Bzzzzzzzz! That’s for someone else to sweep up after I’ve done my 2 year stint..

Why can’t o/c Ops do that as a Wing Commander and the Staish oversee it, after all the o/c Ops should be of a higher rank than the majority of aircrew on a Sqn, but here is a suggestion, one assumes that these cases are few and far between, why not have your “Group Captain” centralised somewhere covering these cases for the whole of the RAF instead of one on each station.

[H Peacock]

Haddon Cave.

To all those that ask why we need two Gp Capts it is a result of the fallout from the Haddon Cave report.

Someone has to be accountable nowadays and the structure they fit into is the Duty Holder (DH) construct. The Senior DH is CAS. The Operational DH is the relevant AOC. The Delivery DH is a Gp Capt and is usually the Stn Cdr.



Hmm; the loss of XV230 was tragic - and avoidable - but the net result of Haddon Cave really has bolloxed-up so much! 🤔

[Bob Viking]

the problem with that line of thinking is that the flying types are also accepting responsibility for things they have no SQEP in - infra risks in particular.

which is why the DH organisation should have a “senior operator” and a “senior engineer” to provide that SQEP to whomever does hold that risk.

I hear what you're saying but (standby for a terribly flippant comment) the base infrastructure is less likely to crash into a town and kill scores of civilians so the risk is not quite the same.

Health and safety at work laws exist in the same way and many senior managers have to take responsibility for things that are beyond their remit. For instance if any employee died at work because a fire exit was blocked, then someone can be prosecuted as a result. The manager/owner/executive in that case will not have been an expert on fire safety but there are many checks and balances to assist them.

The world of flying does sit apart from all of those things because of its very nature. Could you really expect a non-flyer to understand enough about the operation of aircraft to articulate themselves in court?

BV

[Roland Pulfrew]

I still think they missed a trick on the paint scheme, I realise that the white is there for temperature control et cetera, but with a minor tweak they could have added the lightning flash similar to the VC 10 at the front end as you’ve got the colours there, white grey and blue. And that would’ve made it an RAF scheme as opposed to looking just like a cast off American aircraft.

Only if you want to look like a Trucky.

Why not look externally for people to run Stations?

:hmm: Thereby missing one of the purposes of Command. What would some parachuted-in civvie bring to the party? A complete lack of understanding of the role, purpose, ethos of the military. :ugh:

Why can’t o/c Ops do that as a Wing Commander and the Staish oversee it, after all the o/c Ops should be of a higher rank than the majority of aircrew on a Sqn, but here is a suggestion, one assumes that these cases are few and far between, why not have your “Group Captain” centralised somewhere covering these cases for the whole of the RAF instead of one on each station.

Or maybe Commander Air Wing will have responsibility for that. You know, the aircrew gp capt, commander, who has command of all of the people and assets. I'm sure the Commanding Officer regulations will catch up - one day. :cool:

[Bob Viking]

One other thing to consider is that the further up the chain you can push the responsibility of a duty holder the better in my opinion. I would hate to be the person in the dock after an accident and, luckily, I am never likely to be. Gp Capt seems like a sensible starting point in my mind.

BV

[Lima Juliet]

popeye107

Oh dear Popeye, I think you have just revealed the small mindedness and pettiness that B Word was getting at. £90,000 is peanuts in that it is indeed about the full cost of flying combat air fast jet. Further, it is a tiny proportion of the defence budget of £42Bn. It is roughly 0.000002% of that budget, which I would also call peanuts.

As for hitting the press, then it is already there. The Daily Mail and MSN ran it 3 days ago. No massive outcry.

The real truth of this is that roughly £1,000 has been spent per scooter for their through life support (including supply, repair, servicing, safety equipment, etc...). It means that a 52-seat shuttle bus is no longer required to shuttle personnel between their living quarters and plans of work. They also now have a faster means of moving around the HAS site independently too - these sites are big and bicycles have been used in the past for similar purposes. Obviously a bunch of eScooters are better for the environment than a big diesel bus that belches all sorts of nasties into the atmosphere too.

You seem to stooping to the depths of the politics of envy and mud-slinging seen from Her Majesty’s Opposition in the House of Commons. It’s all a bit pathetic, really, and I enjoyed Penny Maudant calling out Angela Rayner about it yesterday.

NutLoose It looks like you misunderstand the powers of a Commanding Officer (CO), that are vastly different to a Officer Commanding (OC), and how there can be only one CO. Have a squint at QRs and then you will understand how powers of discipline works and that ‘job sharing’ command for discipline is not the way to do business. I agree with B Word’s points, in that often the ‘bright ideas club’ fail to understand the nuances of those bright ideas and we go from bad to worse in the name of ‘improvement’.

[popeye107]

That’s a mighty fine chip on your shoulder there!
You have completely failed to appreciate the dire state of the finances of this country.
Purchasing bikes through the HMRC Cycle to Work Scheme would have been a better idea, or issue them bikes with a local shop servicing contract would have been a better idea, and that’s common sense.. not ASTRA. In inclement weather you get wet on either.
No envy on my part, just disbelief about the mass belief this is a great idea. The US spent millions on a pen that worked in space, the Russians used a pencil; it would appear that that analogy is lost on you.

[NutLoose]

Perhaps introduce a system of Boris bikes around the station :)

[SwitchMonkey]

The US spent millions on a pen that worked in space, the Russians used a pencil; it would appear that that analogy is lost on you.

It’s always fun to demonstrate your superior appreciation of a situation and use a pithy statement to really drive the point home. It’s more credible if the pithy statement is factually correct.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/the-write-stuff/

[popeye107]

It’s always fun to demonstrate your superior appreciation of a situation and use a pithy statement to really drive the point home. It’s more credible if the pithy statement is factually correct.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/the-write-stuff/

Your pithy comment is noted. Are you a conspiracy theorist AND anti-vaxxer? Don't always believe what you find on the well known(pithy) site you've linked to.
Now behave yourself.

[SwitchMonkey]

https://history.nasa.gov/spacepen.html better?