A320 LDG with Slats or flaps jammed

[Kevingee21]

Hello fellow pilots

I am new to A320 (321-211 to be exact)

Was studying the QRH PROC and came across this note (from FCOM-ABN):

If FLAPS jammed > 0: MAINTAIN SLAT/FLAP CONFIGURATION Recommended speed for diversion: MAX SPEED -10 kt

Note: In the case of go-around with CONF FULL selected, the L/G NOT DOWN warning is triggered at landing gear retraction.

However when reading the triggering conditions for L/G NOT DOWN none of them seem to match, closet might be #2:

2.L/G is not downlocked and radio height is lower than 750 ft and both engines are not at T.O power and flaps at 1, 2, 3 or FULL

But this doesn’t seem right also (assuming GA TOGA=T.O power). Does it trigger some system logic change inside the LGCIU?

Also another question pertaining to this note from same QRH PROC:

‐ If VLS is greater than VFE NEXT (overweight landing case), the FLAPS lever can be set in the required next position, while the speed is reduced to follow VLS reduction as surfaces extend. The VFE warning threshold should not be triggered. In this case, disconnect the A/THR. A/THR can be re-engaged when the landing configuration is established.

Why disconnect A/THR in this case? Wouldn’t keeping it connected and in SPD mode more convenient? Any reason why?

Thanks so much in advance!

[Fursty Ferret]

ECAM warning and cautions are driven by flight phase, so take-off is different to missed approach.

For your second question, you'll need to disconnect the autothrust in order to decelerate below VLS to get the next stage of flaps out.

[Goldenrivett]

“Note: In the case of go-around with CONF FULL selected, the L/G NOT DOWN warning is triggered at landing gear retraction.

However when reading the triggering conditions for L/G NOT DOWN none of them seem to match, closet might be #2:”

Hi, You will get the same warning if you select Flaps Full without the gear down.
Normally you will never attempt a take off with the Flaps Full or a GA with Flaps Full and the gear up.

[vilas]

2.L/G is not downlocked and radio height is lower than 750 ft and both engines are not at T.O power and flaps at 1, 2, 3 or FULL But this doesn’t seem right also (assuming GA TOGA=T.O power). Does it trigger some system logic change inside the LGCIU? Also another question pertaining to this note from same QRH PROC: ‐ If VLS is greater than VFE NEXT (overweight landing case), the FLAPS lever can be set in the required next position, while the speed is reduced to follow VLS reduction as surfaces extend. The VFE warning threshold should not be triggered. In this case, disconnect the A/THR. A/THR can be re-engaged when the landing configuration is established. Why disconnect A/THR in this case? Wouldn’t keeping it connected and in SPD mode more convenient? Any reason why?
Minimum terrain clearance in non mountainous area is 1000ft. In clean configuration of you go below 1000ft (even below 750ft) doesn't indicate approach and landing intention and remains an issue of terrain clearance. Selection of any flap configuration and below 750ft with thrust not at takeoff is a logic to indicate approach and landing intention. The system asks you "are you landing? Then where's the gear"?
The second question why disconnect ATHR? Because there's ATHR protection for underspeed and overspeed. It will not allow it to go below VLS for the present flap configuration and that's more than VFE Next.

[320busboy]

Worth noting is flap position information is passed to the efcs for control gains from the Flap/Slat CSU. Not the flap /slat physical position.

good read if you can find the report for VR-HYU in Kai Tak.

[FlightDetent]

... engines are not at T.O power
...

(assuming GA TOGA=T.O power). A trick you might find useful for studies and later carrer. With Airbus documentation whenever you see something that spells different to what you think it should say, you need an immediate step back. That is evidence your comprehension is incorrect.

The quoted case above: "take-off power" means either TOGA or FLEX. That's how you missed the lead for the take-off case, assuming GA TOGA.

It applies for the ECAM too. Whatever it says on the screen, you must find EXACTLY the same button on the overhead.

[vilas]

GPWS Mode 4 has three sub modes a,b, and c. Only mode C is active during take-off it only triggers from minimum terrain clearance and radio altitude. It has nothing to do with gear or flaps.

[Kevingee21]

Ok I see now.

I’m thinking now the reason airbus writes T.O Power instead of TOGA is because they also factor in OEI GA which would be in FLEX/MCT.

Is this thinking right?

Sorry new to the bus.

Thanks for the reply and trick!

[Kevingee21]

Thank you for the reply.

So I see now this has nothing to do with GPWS mode right?

I think Post #3 by Goldenrivett might be the closet but I didn’t find in the books saying anything about this warning coming out with Flaps full and gear up.

But I think it makes the most sense because the FCOM QRH PROC note specifically says when GA with conf full selected this warning comes out.

Come to think of it, is there anything preventing you from choosing to go flaps full before putting the gears down?

When I used to fly Boeing they had this trigger that if you put flaps beyond 20 without the L/G down sirens would go off.

So I’m assuming this is also the case with airbus then?

Thanks again for the replies!

[FlightDetent]

is there anything preventing you from choosing to go flaps full before putting the gears down? The gear not down - inappropriate configuration - ECAM comes up. You mentioned it in the very first post.

The standard trigger logic is tied to RA values. Should both of them fail, this simplified voting is used:L/G GEAR NOT DOWN

...not downlocked and flaps at 3 or FULL...

[pineteam]

In normal conditions you can select flaps full before gear down and you won’t get any warning until 750 feet RA and N1 lower than 75%. I remember doing it at least once or twice when ATC asked us minimum speed very far on final.

[Kevingee21]

I see. So I guess this trigger comes out for just a short while during GA when I command Gear up and both ENGs have not come up to T.O POWER yet (and below 750 RA). Should cancel by itself when at T.O. POWER.

Thanks for all the replies!

[FlightDetent]

I have a hunch the T.O. Power in this context really means TLs in FLEX/MCT or TOGA detents. But you are right it does not spell that way, something I underscored above and thus could be wrong.

Regardless, it is would be hard to test. The G/A drïll has some steps:

1) TOGA selection
2) ..
3) ..
4) ..
5) ..
6) ..
7) ..
8) ..
9) ..
10)..
11) L/G downlocks release

The T.O. Power will be well before 11) happens.

Challenge to fill the blanks offered.

[Lantirn]

Since there are dozen of those posts here, I am not going to open an new thread about it.

I wanted to ask if anyone familiar with the sim knows if the ECAM line MAX SPEED….XXX changes with the actual configuration as the flaps are retracted for a diversion

[CrazyStuntPilot]

Since there are dozen of those posts here, I am not going to open an new thread about it.

I wanted to ask if anyone familiar with the sim knows if the ECAM line MAX SPEED….XXX changes with the actual configuration as the flaps are retracted for a diversion
Yes it does to reflect the actual MAX SPEED.

[Lantirn]

Thank you, I fly the bus 7 years and this procedure sometimes gives me headache although its a very simple one.

Although it seems a simple procedure, (and it really is), its one of the most miscomprehended and misflown mainly due to the fact that is very poorly writen by Airbus in QRH. Also FCTM is not so explanatory as it should.

If there is a procedure to be miscommunicated with your fellow sim partner this is the one that will happen, especially on the approach.

1) How to handle the a/c when on approach after pulling speed (maintain flap configuration with absence of a standard callout for that-and this can be a mess in the sim during the G/A if the PM wants to retract). Speed is becoming managed after application of TOGA and there is a risk of overspeed and this is nowhere written, its like the procedure is written having in mind that this will happen only on departure
2) There are 2 MAX speeds you have to know, the one that you fly for the G/A and circuit and one for the diversion or "retracted configuration"
3) The naming of the technical problems (FAULT, LOCKED, JAMMED?) are complexed in the QRH (you are directed to a FLAPS JAMMED case where there is no such ECAM, you have to know WTB is on on your flaps in LOCKED, but on top you can also have WTB in the slats) Just poorly written procedure IMHO where anyone non competent can have a stupid idea of what the meaning can be....just unacceptable for such a procedure in a big manufacturer like airbus

[vilas]

Thank you, I fly the bus 7 years and this procedure sometimes gives me headache although its a very simple one.

Although it seems a simple procedure, (and it really is), its one of the most miscomprehended and misflown mainly due to the fact that is very poorly writen by Airbus in QRH. Also FCTM is not so explanatory as it should.

If there is a procedure to be miscommunicated with your fellow sim partner this is the one that will happen, especially on the approach.

1) How to handle the a/c when on approach after pulling speed (maintain flap configuration with absence of a standard callout for that-and this can be a mess in the sim during the G/A if the PM wants to retract). Speed is becoming managed after application of TOGA and there is a risk of overspeed and this is nowhere written, its like the procedure is written having in mind that this will happen only on departure
2) There are 2 MAX speeds you have to know, the one that you fly for the G/A and circuit and one for the diversion or "retracted configuration"
3) The naming of the technical problems (FAULT, LOCKED, JAMMED?) are complexed in the QRH (you are directed to a FLAPS JAMMED case where there is no such ECAM, you have to know WTB is on on your flaps in LOCKED, but on top you can also have WTB in the slats) Just poorly written procedure IMHO where anyone non competent can have a stupid idea of what the meaning can be....just unacceptable for such a procedure in a big manufacturer like airbus
I agree that the procedure could have been written better.The word jammed doesn't exist in ECAM because Jam is the result of two causes and ECAM wants to suggest different procedures for them. So what ECAM uses is fault or locked. Fault is for SFCC problem and it asks you to recycle just like restarting your mobile if an app didn't work properly and may get rid of it and locked for hydraulic brake which is going to stay. QRH procedure uses the word jam because irrespective of the causes that's the final result and in both cases it's applicable for conducting the approach. Max speed is decided by the VFE of the most extended surface for whatever you want do, either a goaround or diversion -10kts. Obviously whenever a surface position changes max speed will change. As far as overspeed is concerned in goaround is SRS is managed speed mode that targets GA engagement speed so no fear of exceedance. When SRS changes to no matter to what it will accelerate so need to fly in select max speed. As regards call-out whenever a nonstandard activity will be performed like maintaining configuration or not retracting gear it needs to be briefed and a call out is devices e.g. GA maintain flaps or gear. The max speed table adds to the confusion by giving some combinations which are not possible like Slat1 and Flap3. It's better to calculate from VFE speeds given above ISIS panel.

[Lantirn]

I agree that the procedure could have been written better.The word jammed doesn't exist in ECAM because Jam is the result of two causes and ECAM wants to suggest different procedures for them. So what ECAM uses is fault or locked. Fault is for SFCC problem and it asks you to recycle just like restarting your mobile if an app didn't work properly and may get rid of it and locked for hydraulic brake which is going to stay. QRH procedure uses the word jam because irrespective of the causes that's the final result and in both cases it's applicable for conducting the approach.

Hi Vilas, glad you replied to my concerns, I have been reading your very informative posts for years and i find them very enlightening.
If they wanted to make it simple, they could just have 2 cases in QRH. If flaps locked >0, do not change configuration for diversion. At all other cases, retract for diversion. While they can explain beforehand in a note above that in a G/A you dont change config no matter what. Its that simple and very basic!

Max speed is decided by the VFE of the most extended surface for whatever you want do, either a goaround or diversion -10kts. Obviously whenever a surface position changes max speed will change.

My point was if you had it on final, unexpected and you wanted to G/A. But me rethinking it, you just stay below VFE for the G/A and you are ok to go. As you said confusion arises sometimes on non-standard configurations mainly due to the fact that you are going to configure for flap3 as your flaps or slats is locked (or fault) on a non-standard configuration for landing. Good point.

As far as overspeed is concerned in goaround is SRS is managed speed mode that targets GA engagement speed so no fear of exceedance. When SRS changes to no matter to what it will accelerate so need to fly in select max speed.

True and correct, but again imagine the failure to appear just below 1500ft AGL, you pull the speed to maintain config, then you hit TOGA for G/A and managed speed goes up 5-6 secs later after passing 1500 for clean up and you get it unnoticed. You had just announced your FMA, and 5 secs later...Yes, FLY NAV COM, triple clicks will happen, but performance on the sim can be less than optimal when dealing with other issues and especially if this was an approach to land while you had finished other abnormals! Capacity will not be that high and the same as you departed! But what to do, this is automation today. We have to deal.


As regards call-out whenever a nonstandard activity will be performed like maintaining configuration or not retracting gear it needs to be briefed and a call out is devices e.g. GA maintain flaps or gear. The max speed table adds to the confusion by giving some combinations which are not possible like Slat1 and Flap3. It's better to calculate from VFE speeds given above ISIS panel.

True, but again if the failure appears on the approach, the crew will not expect that and how you can brief for an unexpected failure. You cant brief in every approach that if the flaps/slats are stuck we will maintain our config! Thats why I believe this procedure has to be more clear (at least in FCTM) and accomodate for a callout.

Going one step further, an aircraft without failures, is on final on flaps1 and ATC instructs for a G/A. Oh man. 50% of the population will say maintain config. 50% will say retract one step, as per standard callout. I had a very close friend called by our safety department that the maneuver was not done according SOPs because he maintained config. Because the standard callout is "G/A FLAPS". Yeah, sure. Because nowhere is written that its not required. G/A configuration is for climb gradient performance and with flap 1 its there and more than enough. Especially airbus that allows flight below maneuvering speeds and above vls, should have accomodated for that. No callout or description, a mess, a hole for misjudgement. Selected speed 160, flaps 1, then you G/A, you retract one step, alpha lock engages, yeah, no issue. Then deal with the safety.

[FlightDetent]

The off-topic part:

By their definition F and S are the retraction speeds after takeoff. Also used for manoeuvring during approach.

When flying well below S speed on purpose, the G/A scenario gets very ugly as explained. I heard once that EU's largest A319 operator insists on F2 below S, I assume the above to be the reason.

With my employer, keeping conf 1 is a no-bicscuits time as well, no matter that being the sensible choice.
​

[Lantirn]

The off-topic part:

By their definition F and S are the retraction speeds after takeoff. Also used for manoeuvring during approach.

When flying well below S speed on purpose, the G/A scenario gets very ugly as explained. I heard once that EU's largest A319 operator insists on F2 below S, I assume the above to be the reason.

With my employer, keeping conf 1 is a no-bicscuits time as well, no matter that being the sensible choice.
​

My company also doesnt allow to fly below maneuvering speeds without configuring. Thats why maybe they insist on the retraction during the G/A

BTW my coleague was not in conf 1 in his flight, he had conf 2 and he maintained that during the G/A

Conf 1 was my example for the sake of discussion

[vilas]

Actually GA flap is a must for flap full approach. Rest are all take of configurations so there are no performance issues. If a GA occurs in a tricky position flaps can be maintained as a situational remedy. Not retracting from flap1 is a non issue. Even in Flap3 first retraction (during acceleration) is flap1. Following para is from Airbus document.

When landing configuration is not established (CONF1 or CONF2) there is no particular need to retract the flaps one step as there is no drag issue, and therefore, no performance impact. However, standard go around procedure (GO AROUND – FLAPS) could be applied, even when in CONF1, provided TOGA detent is reached prior flaps retraction (to ensure GO AROUND phase engagement). A/THR and FD’s will maintain VLS, and Slats Alpha / Speed lock function will inhibit slats retraction if necessary.

[Lantirn]

Vilas thats gold.

Where is that reference?

[vilas]

Vilas thats gold.

Where is that reference?
One of airbus instructor meetings.

[Lantirn]

vilas Just a clarification here.

If the crew wants to retract for diversion, the first retraction will be between max and max-10. The second would be between max and max-10 for the changed configuration and so on. So one should have the table open to select the proper speeds? Or maybe monitor the status page as the max speed will adjust by itself and then select the respective speed?

Obviously this will be for the slats jammed case, or with no limit if flap at zero.

[vilas]

vilas Just a clarification here.

If the crew wants to retract for diversion, the first retraction will be between max and max-10. The second would be between max and max-10 for the changed configuration and so on. So one should have the table open to select the proper speeds? Or maybe monitor the status page as the max speed will adjust by itself and then select the respective speed?

Obviously this will be for the slats jammed case, or with no limit if flap at zero.
STATUS page will only give initial max speed. In case of diversion during subsequent retractions pilot will have to calculate. No need for QRH VFEs are written on top of ISIS.

[LHRPony]

The second question why disconnect ATHR? Because there's ATHR protection for underspeed and overspeed. It will not allow it to go below VLS for the present flap configuration and that's more than VFE Next.
Vilas, I know I probably have the wrong end of the stick, but the QRH says

If VLS is greater than VFE NEXT (overweight landing case), the FLAPS lever can be set in the required next position, while the speed is reduced to follow VLS reduction as surfaces extend. The VFE warning threshold should not be triggered.

In this case, disconnect the A/THR. A/THR can be re-engaged when the landing configuration is established.

which the way I read it is to select flaps when at VLS, even above VFE next and track the VLS down as the surfaces extend.
So I’ve never understood why the A/THR has to be disconnected. Eg if Vls was above VFE next, and you select say, vfe next -5, the A/THR will keep the speed at VLS above VFE next, when you select the flap and the surfaces move, the A/THR will follow VLS down.
In the “normal” over weight checklist I get it, that you may have to disconnect as described, but the overweight flap/slats jammed fault case was different.

Would really appreciate your input.
Kind regards and Happy new year

[vilas]

Vilas, I know I probably have the wrong end of the stick, but the QRH says

If VLS is greater than VFE NEXT (overweight landing case), the FLAPS lever can be set in the required next position, while the speed is reduced to follow VLS reduction as surfaces extend. The VFE warning threshold should not be triggered.

In this case, disconnect the A/THR. A/THR can be re-engaged when the landing configuration is established.

which the way I read it is to select flaps when at VLS, even above VFE next and track the VLS down as the surfaces extend.
So I’ve never understood why the A/THR has to be disconnected. Eg if Vls was above VFE next, and you select say, vfe next -5, the A/THR will keep the speed at VLS above VFE next, when you select the flap and the surfaces move, the A/THR will follow VLS down.
In the “normal” over weight checklist I get it, that you may have to disconnect as described, but the overweight flap/slats jammed fault case was different.

Would really appreciate your input.
Kind regards and Happy new year



ATHR maintains F speed not VLS. That is why it's disconnected.

[LHRPony]

Many thanks Vilas for your response.
I agree it would Target F speed if the speed was left managed, but as per the QRH your using SELECTED speed to VFE NEXT -5 (which is inside the VLS in this case) then the A/THR would reduce speed only VLS? As you ran the flap as per the QRH above VFE next, you will end up in the black & reds briefly but shouldn’t trigger a over speed warning as that’s done on actual position?
I know I must be missing something, I’m just trying to figure out what? And why they say you may need to disconnect the A/THR.
Many thanks for your input.

[vilas]

Many thanks Vilas for your response.
I agree it would Target F speed if the speed was left managed, but as per the QRH your using SELECTED speed to VFE NEXT -5 (which is inside the VLS in this case) then the A/THR would reduce speed only VLS? As you ran the flap as per the QRH above VFE next, you will end up in the black & reds briefly but shouldn’t trigger a over speed warning as that’s done on actual position?
I know I must be missing something, I’m just trying to figure out what? And why they say you may need to disconnect the A/THR.
Many thanks for your input.
Yes! When VFE next is less than VLS even in select speed ATHR will maintain VLS which is still beyond the VFEnext. Since VLS is real time speed as you lower the next flap as the surface extends gradually the VLS also starts decreasing. Here for better control of speed ATHR is disconnected and once under control can be reengaged.

[FlightDetent]

I lost you guys at #26.

If the Vls is above VFE(next) and A/THR engaged,
+ you select man speed sel VFEnext -5
+ ATH/R observes Vls

And nothing else happens. There will be no decrease of Vls as the flaps extend because they will not. You are still stuck at the original Vls that is above your VFEnext.

Hence the call for ATHR off, so that you can reduce into the Vls zone in order to deploy the flaps next notch. Only then observe the Vls dropping which creates the room to re-engage the ATHR.

[vilas]

I lost you guys at #26.

If the Vls is above VFE(next) and A/THR engaged,
+ you select man speed sel VFEnext -5
+ ATH/R observes Vls

And nothing else happens. There will be no decrease of Vls as the flaps extend because they will not. You are still stuck at the original Vls that is above your VFEnext.

Hence the call for ATHR off, so that you can reduce into the Vls zone in order to deploy the flaps next notch. Only then observe the Vls dropping which creates the room to re-engage the ATHR.
In select speed with ATHR on it will maintain VLS is correct which otherwise would maintain F or S speed but you are supposed to select next flap at that VLS and they will extend (at any speed) but since speed is in select it will maintain same VLS is also correct. You don't reduce into VLS zone but follow the reduction of VLS itself which is taking place because the surface extension.
What he has quoted in #26 is from the procedure.

[FlightDetent]

Aaah, all written there already, now that you point it out.

​​​​​​Appreciated.

[dream747]

I’ve always understood that the SRS mode mode will engage on go-around provided that the flap lever is selected to at least 1. However, in our latest FCOM revision, it now states that the slats or flaps must be extended.

If we do a go-around with slats and flaps stuck at 0 but the flap lever is set to 1 as per ECAM, do we actually get SRS?

[AerocatS2A]

I’ve always understood that the SRS mode mode will engage on go-around provided that the flap lever is selected to at least 1. However, in our latest FCOM revision, it now states that the slats or flaps must be extended.

If we do a go-around with slats and flaps stuck at 0 but the flap lever is set to 1 as per ECAM, do we actually get SRS?
That is an error apparently and should be amended to say it engages based on lever position. There was a thread about it a few months back.

[vilas]

I’ve always understood that the SRS mode mode will engage on go-around provided that the flap lever is selected to at least 1. However, in our latest FCOM revision, it now states that the slats or flaps must be extended.

If we do a go-around with slats and flaps stuck at 0 but the flap lever is set to 1 as per ECAM, do we actually get SRS?
It's an error in latest revision of FCOM. The error is confirmed by Airbus will be ammended shortly.

[dream747]

Thanks guys. I read about this issue in a thread a few months back but the very recent article by Airbus still state at least flaps or slats must be extended (at least on the A320 family) to have SRS. Would have expected them to put the corrected information in.
https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/non-engagement-of-the-go-around-modes-in-clean-flaps-configuration/

We also tried flap lever fault in the simulator, regardless of what position the flap lever is, SRS doesn’t engage on go-around. Is this what we can expect on the aircraft as well? If so, I think there’s not much detail or write-up by Airbus on flap lever faults.

Cheers.

[AerocatS2A]

Thanks guys. I read about this issue in a thread a few months back but the very recent article by Airbus still state at least flaps or slats must be extended (at least on the A320 family) to have SRS. Would have expected them to put the corrected information in.
https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/non-engagement-of-the-go-around-modes-in-clean-flaps-configuration/

We also tried flap lever fault in the simulator, regardless of what position the flap lever is, SRS doesn’t engage on go-around. Is this what we can expect on the aircraft as well? If so, I think there’s not much detail or write-up by Airbus on flap lever faults.

Cheers.

That article says that you should refer to the FCOM for the specifics of whether the flap/slat position or lever position is considered for engagement of SRS.

If there is a flap lever fault then presumably the flap lever position is not sensed and so SRS will not engage.