Video of a fire fighting Z8A helicopter crashing in Yunnan Province, China, 10th May

[krautland]

Z8A crash in Yunnan

[212man]

Seems like two dead an two missing

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Seems like two dead an two missing

Another crew lost, condolences to their colleagues and family.

Looks like an AVIC AC313 to my eye - civil version of the Z-18, which is a modernised Z-8, itself based on the super frelon.

[gulliBell]

Very puzzling response to that situation. It looks like they tried to do absolutely nothing to save themselves other than just sit there and arrive at the scene of the accident.

[Fareastdriver]

Unfortunately it seems to reflect Chinese training. Fly by the book; Tail rotor failures aren't in the book.

[SimonK]

Did wonder if it was LTE rather than a failure per se? Looked like they were turning and coming into the hover, likely heavy aswell, at the same time. No idea what the wind was, but likely a big boot of rudder as they approached the hover and just ran out of TR...

RIP chaps.

[twinstar_ca]

Did they punch the bucket?? Condolences on the loss of the crew... :(

[aa777888]

Did they punch the bucket?? Condolences on the loss of the crew... :(
Watch the video...

[Cyclic Hotline]

https://fb.watch/5p2Ok0MTe-/

The elevation of Erhai Lake is 6470 feet and the temperature at the time of the accident (10:20) was around 17C. It will be interesting to review the rest of the equation leading to this accident.

[B2N2]

What’s that exploding towards the end just prior to impact? The gearbox?

[Hughes500]

The aircraft must have been reasonably light as the bambi bucket is empty so I would assume plenty of power left! The tail rotor is still spinning presumably drive ok

[PPRuNeUser0211]

What’s that exploding towards the end just prior to impact? The gearbox?

Fire starts as the tail boom separates just aft of the main fuselage. The Z-18 design, iirc, has one of the 3 engines an unusually long way aft on the top deck, so probably associated with the engine as that structure breaks up.

[J.O.]

What’s that exploding towards the end just prior to impact? The gearbox?
Main rotor slap cutting the tail off.

[PlasticCabDriver]

Might just be video frame rate but after 2 1/2 spins at 00:12 the tail rotor looks pretty stationary.

[Arnie Madsen]

Watch the video...

What video ?

No link in opening post ... anyone else have it ?? ... Google shows only photos of wreckage .

thanks

EDIT : .... found it

[chopper2004]

Good god, condolences and best wishes to their colleagues, families and friends.ä

Any News of the other two crew?

ATB

[aa777888]

What video ?

No link in opening post ... anyone else have it ?? ... Google shows only photos of wreckage .

thanks

EDIT : .... found it
​​​​​​All I had to do was click on the video link posted in the OP. Nothing to find...

[[email protected]]

The way the yaw rate accelerates and keeps on going would seem to rule out anything but a TR drive failure.

Even just lowering the lever would have probably made it more survivable.

[ShyTorque]

It was very unpleasant to watch that.

From the video, (although frame rate interference flicker often masks such things) it might have been a tail rotor drive failure. The reason I say that is that the tail rotor appears to briefly slow down and stop then restart. Due to the high yaw rate, it may then have actually begun to rotate opposite to its normal direction.

It does appear that the crew didn't react to loss of tail rotor authority (for whatever reason that occurred). First thing I'd have done was jettison the bucket then dump the collective lever. Most experienced, adequately trained pilots would have done those things.

What a shame. :(

[gulliBell]

..it might have been a tail rotor drive failure...
Or not. When the high sink rate developed the tail rotor escaped the recirculating airflow and directional control was almost regained. Except at that point the main rotor chopped off the tail boom and it was well and truly all over red rover then.

[gulliBell]

Unfortunately it seems to reflect Chinese training. Fly by the book; Tail rotor failures aren't in the book.

I did a Transport ground instructor's course with a group of Chinese PLA fighter pilots several years ago. What surprised me was their mentality that if they had a malfunction, whatever it was, they would just turn around and fly home and have somebody else deal with it. Which is well and good, except for those type of malfunctions where pilots need to do pilot stuff here and now. Like what we saw in that video called for.

[Same again]

I trained Chinese police pilots in the sim some years ago. Their lack of situational awareness was astounding.

[gulliBell]

I trained Chinese police pilots in the sim some years ago. Their lack of situational awareness was astounding.

Chinese are Chuck Yeager grade compared to some other nationalities I've trained. Seriously, how anybody could get lost in the traffic pattern of a major International airport with a 7,000' runway I'll never know. And then once discovering they are lost having no idea how to get un-lost. And that was an ATP pilot on a recurrent sortie.

[AAKEE]

The way the yaw rate accelerates and keeps on going would seem to rule out anything but a TR drive failure.

Even just lowering the lever would have probably made it more survivable.

Absolutely.

Seeing they go down with appearently no emergency actions what so ever was quite uncomfortable for me. They didnt even jettison the bucket... No training/alertness at all for emergencys?

[[email protected]]

I think any reduction in the yaw rate in the latter stages means they might have finally chopped the engines or lowered the lever sufficiently - all a bit too late though.

[AAKEE]

I think any reduction in the yaw rate in the latter stages means they might have finally chopped the engines or lowered the lever sufficiently - all a bit too late though.

Looks like the bucket pendulum away(or something else) causes a bank that in its turn causes a sideslip that temporary stops the rotation. It starts spinning again after that sideslip. :-(

[Fareastdriver]

A different company in a different job than the company I spent a decade or so training so I don't know who the pilots were. My crowd have managed to avoid having serious accidents or incidents so far this century.

I must have done something right.

[m0nkfish]

I’m not a rotary operator but what strikes me is the comments that the aircrew apparently made no attempt to save the situation. Could pilot incapacitation be a factor?

[[email protected]]

M0nkfish - being suddenly spun round when you were not expecting it is disorientating and the g can cause problems with reaching engine controls. That is why it is important to train for TR malfunctions in the sim so your actions are almost pre-determined.

[gulliBell]

Could pilot incapacitation be a factor?

No........

[Fareastdriver]

A fire fighting Z8A helicopter; read military.

That is why it is important to train for TR malfunctions in the sim so your actions are almost pre-determined.; what simulator?

I can remember (1978) the first Super Frelons for the Chinese Navy lined up in a hanger at Marignane awaiting Washington's clearance so that the Sikorsky componants used in the rotor system could be exported to China. Around the turn of the century the Chinese acquired the licences to produce a copy by themselves.

Should my experience of the Chinese military be of any use initiative and currency are way down the list. Most of the jet jockeys I have met turn in about 70-100 hrs/annum. One of the older helicopter pilots I trained attained 750 hrs in ten years service of which all but 150 hrs were 'training' either initial or as a 2nd pilot.

Consistently on the PLAAF bases I have visited aircraft utilisation follows a pattern. A group of aircraft at the head of the line are flown exclusively until they have a difficult problem. They are then shunted to the bottom to be used as Xmas trees whilst the covers are pulled off the next ones. The company I worked for had a contract to overhaul the PLA recce helicopters but the throughput was unnoticeable.

The regimentation of military life continues into the cockpit. The checklist is only just inferior to Mao and little can be done without reference to it. I spent a lot of time training our offshore pilots to break free from these constraints so it was replaced by situation awareness and most importantly, initiative but keeping within the safe flying boundaries.

安息吧 There was nothing they could do about it.

[Cyclic Hotline]

Just to capture the human side of this, all four crew members perished in this accident, and here is a story about the Commander. Will any accident report be published for this accident?
https://newsus.cgtn.com/news/2021-05-15/In-memory-of-fallen-firefighting-pilot-10gGC1A5YYg/index.html

[etudiant]

Just to capture the human side of this, all four crew members perished in this accident, and here is a story about the Commander. Will any accident report be published for this accident?
https://newsus.cgtn.com/news/2021-05-15/In-memory-of-fallen-firefighting-pilot-10gGC1A5YYg/index.html

RIP the commander and his crew.
Have to say the report suggests he was a very experienced pilot, so the apparent failure to act in response to the emergency is very surprising.
Certainly fire fighting is not a rote piloting endeavor afaik, as not much there happens by the book. The article is at pains to point that out as well.
Is there a potential mechanical failure which would produce a similar result?

[gulliBell]

..Is there a potential mechanical failure which would produce a similar result?
Potential. Yes. However in this case, I suspect not. Although I'm sure others here would disagree with me. I have reached out to my operatives in China and there is only silence thus far.